in your opinion of course…
…but let's see what you got to say Debatable Dan
Well, considering you were so openly opinionated about a poster’s list; that must make you Debatable Debbie (or Darlene, Diana, Darcy, Dawn…though Daisy would suit you best).
All that being said, yes, it’s my “opinion” that Joe’s catch was more important regarding a SB run than Miller’s.
At the Vet.
Against someone who owned us, bullied us, were more physical, etc.
Our record in cold weather.
Not to mention what was happening off the field for Joe
So on and so forth.
Game couldn’t have started worse.
Joe’s catch literally TRANSFORMED the game.
Like when Rocky cut Drago for the first time.
The team followed.
His TD before Packers half time was just as important in the Bucs Superbowl run.
No, it wasn't.
in your opinion of course
Given how that second half played out, without that TD, we potentially lose that 31-26 game
Not saying that JJ catch and run wasn't a game changer either; just suggesting we appear to be overrating the player listing him a top 10 buccaneer all time; but let's see what you got to say Debatable Dan
I would agree. I'm not sure they win that Packer game without that TD before the half. That was huge.
While Miller has more total yards, Jurevicious has more YPG as a Buccaneer. With more TD's & Receptions in less years/games as a Buc, Jurevicious (30 games) was a better Buc than Speedy Scotty Miller (50 games) - even if he wasn't anointed as a JC All Star. But it's fairly surprising either is on anybody's Top10 list.
as a fan, i also liked Joe Jurevicius more; my point about mediocre and easily replaceable Scotty Miller was just that....that he was a nobody and....color me pink...so was Joe Jurevicius in the grand scheme of things.
My point was more that JJ was not a top 10 buccaneer WR all time, let alone player. And not to go at the original poster, but it was more his preference as a fan. For example, i liked Leonard Fournette....but i wouldn't put him in the top 10; but would def rank him ahead of JJ in terms of all time Bucs.
Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Yep.For those who never watched Doug Williams play, or what he meant to the Bucs/his team, maybe you would question him being in this list.
If you know, you know.
yes, to be fair, i was not born when Doug was on the team
numbers are tough though
1978 - 4 wins, 6 losses; 7 TDs, 8 INTs
1979 - 10 wins, 6 losses; 18 TDs, 24 INTs (2 playoff games; 1 TD, 2 INT)
1980 - 5 wins, 10 losses, 1 tie - 20 TDs, 16 INTs
1981 - 9 wins, 7 losses; 19 TDs 14 INTs (1 playoff game, 0 TDs, 4 INTs)
1982 - 5 Wins, 4 losses; 9 TDs, 11 INTs (1 playoff game, 1 TD, 3 INTs)
i guess, it was an exciting time to watch given 1976 inception; but doesn't look like he changed the culture a
Top "x" lists are tough because people apply different metrics.
You appear to be focusing on Williams stats, which is certainly fair. Williams place in Bucs history transcends his stats though. In fact, William's most meaningful stats come AFTER the Bucs, but are still relevant to the Bucs because of the circumstances. Williams may not have changed the culture of the Bucs (he led them to the playoffs 3 or 4 times, so I would differ with you there) . . but the circumstances of his departure from the Bucs arguably advanced a change to the culture of the ENTIRE LEAGUE.
So, he's definitely one of the most consequential Bucs of all time. He is in the RING OF HONOR for a reason and those are his accomplishments on the field as the Bucs QB but because the current Bucs ownership tacitly acknowledges he was treated unfairly by the prior Bucs owner.
Williams was a "black quarterback" from an HCBU . . . paid very little in 1982, relative to other QBs. He asked to be paid for his performance in 1982/1983. The Bucs OWNER did not want to pay, but most would say it was about more than the amount as they were reportedly in easy compromise territory, but didn't get it done.
Williams goes to the Redskins where he eventually becomes the first African American QB to start a Super Bowl game and the Redskins won the Super Bowl and he was the MVP. He was the MVP because after injuring his knee in the game, he gets up and throws 4 TDS and 300 plus yards against the favored ELWAY-led Broncos. So, it was a Willis Reed-type moment (given your age you probably need to Google that lol) on the biggest stage. Those circumstances arguably play a part in changing the way some people viewed black QBs at the time.
In my view, the entire Redskins team plays well, but he has great throws on his TDs, most (all?) in the 2nd quarter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHBGZmYGCwk
Doug Williams did things that left you scratching your head for 3 quarters, then he’d find lightning and dominate the rest of the game - the time he put together 3 or 4 last minute comeback wins to get us into the playoffs were absolute roller-coaster, shred the wallpaper from the wall, chew your fingernails past the quick, shockers!
They never did anything to support Doug, we had a cheap owner who tried leveraging everyone for peanuts - including the fans. Sadly, much of his flawed judgement was based on skin color.
Hugh Culverhouse united the fanbase in calls for him to sell it. He was a stain on the organization in more ways than one.
Loved that this was the same period that the USFL briefly gave the Tampa Bat area something cheer about - The Bandits pulled more crowds than the Bucs and showed the fanbase - and possibly the league - what Tampa could be with an owner that was engaged and properly motivated.
You’re right, Doug Williams leaving the way he did, had an indirect hand in changing this franchise…in the way that change mostly happens in life, incrementally, at first.
This fanbase has a history of knowing what bad owners look like, and the cost to our team. Culverhouse became a cautionary tale of how NOT to develop a winner.
Like I said before, it’s a story for another thread.
But Doug Williams belongs in ANY Buccaneer top 10 ranking.
I like the Willis Reed reference/analogy, nice touch.
Baker has shown he’s matured, and he has definitely improved the team. He’s a good QB, hope he can be a great one… but he’s already won more playoff games than the majority of Buccaneers QB’s - so he’s at least due consideration for a made up list that until recently has had a really low bar.Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Baker has shown he’s matured, and he has definitely improved the team. He’s a good QB, hope he can be a great one… but he’s already won more playoff games than the majority of Buccaneers QB’s - so he’s at least due consideration for a made up list that until recently has had a really low bar.Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Disagree about the consideration. He's played 2 years and it's not even close to Brady's 2020-2021. I think SR is the most level headed Bucs media guy but he's lost his mind with Baker, Jensen and Martin.
On PRs top 50 they include Goedeke and Winfield as well as Wirfs and Mayfield. They are projecting future performance IMO. Winfield and Wirfs have had five seasons with a Superbowl win. Winfield's last season was impacted by injuries and he has to prove he can get back to his previous form. Goedeke has three seasons, no Superbowls. Mayfield two seasons, no Superbowls. It's fair to project future performance if you want to do that, but then you should say that's what you are doing. It's fair to project that all of those guys I mentioned are going to continue to play at a high level, but it's still a projection. I don't think PR made that clear.Trash lists from all of you. Wirfs is already on Bucs Mt Rushmore and is rapidly approaching Brooks status.
Wirfs has only played in five seasons. He's not on Rushmore yet. He needs to continue his dominance for a few more years to be on Rushmore and get in the HOF. If he blows out his ACL tomorrow and never recovers, he's neither at this point. I will say I was surprised nobody listed him before I did.
But step up the plate, slugger.
Baker has shown he’s matured, and he has definitely improved the team. He’s a good QB, hope he can be a great one… but he’s already won more playoff games than the majority of Buccaneers QB’s - so he’s at least due consideration for a made up list that until recently has had a really low bar.Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Disagree about the consideration. He's played 2 years and it's not even close to Brady's 2020-2021. I think SR is the most level headed Bucs media guy but he's lost his mind with Baker, Jensen and Martin.
yeah i agree...i know we are a shit franchise and no doubt Baker has been a dude...these last 2 years...but it's just that....it's 2 friccken years for a 50 year franchise. And....to your point, Brady's 2 years included a Super Bowl win and a franchise high in wins the following year. (we don't talk about his 2022 season, that is omitted from the history books)
So Brady being a top 20, or in my eyes, top 10 Buccaneer...yes i agree with that; but Baker....yeah i'd have him in the top 50 because most likely he is going to be our franchise leader in every QB category when all said and done but that's also forward looking
On PRs top 50 they include Goedeke and Winfield as well as Wirfs and Mayfield. They are projecting future performance IMO. Winfield and Wirfs have had five seasons with a Superbowl win. Winfield's last season was impacted by injuries and he has to prove he can get back to his previous form. Goedeke has three seasons, no Superbowls. Mayfield two seasons, no Superbowls. It's fair to project future performance if you want to do that, but then you should say that's what you are doing. It's fair to project that all of those guys I mentioned are going to continue to play at a high level, but it's still a projection. I don't think PR made that clear.Trash lists from all of you. Wirfs is already on Bucs Mt Rushmore and is rapidly approaching Brooks status.
Wirfs has only played in five seasons. He's not on Rushmore yet. He needs to continue his dominance for a few more years to be on Rushmore and get in the HOF. If he blows out his ACL tomorrow and never recovers, he's neither at this point. I will say I was surprised nobody listed him before I did.
But step up the plate, slugger.
I don't have a problem with Winfield and I have Wirfs in my top 10 already because he has multiple years of HOF OT play and dominated in a Super Bowl. The problem with projecting is we've seen guys fall off. Freeman, Cadillac, Ruud, Mike Williams, Tanard Jackson. Martin fell off and he still put him in there.
I don't like putting the current 2 year guys in over lunch pale guys like Greg Spires (89 games), Will Gholston (186 games), Brian Kelly (130 games), Donald Penn (112 games), Cedric Brown (100 games)
So my top 10 were:
1. LB Derrick Brooks
2. DT Warren Sapp
3. CB Ronde Barber
4. WR Mike Evans
5. DE Lee Roy Selmon
6. S John Lynch
7. LB Lavonte David
8. QB Tom Brady
9. DE Simeon Rice
10. FB Mike Alstott
if i had to extend out to 20 (order can be rearranged)
11. OT Paul Gruber
12. WR Chris Godwin
13. LB Hardy Nickerson
14. DT Gerald McCoy
15. RB James Wilder
16. DT Vita Vea
17. OT Tristian Wirfs
18. TE Jimmie Giles
19. RB Warrick Dunn
20. CB Donnie Abraham
i think Godwin, Vea, and Wirfs have done enough to earn the top 20 consideration already in their careers.
With Wirf only having 5 years, we dont win a superbowl without him his rookie season and has developed into one of the best tackles in current day; he has a chance to end up in top 10 for sure.
Feel like Godwin will always be overshadowed by Mike Evans when we look back on it so dont think he has a chance to reach top 10 status.
Our top 10 is a pretty solid list, with maybe room for guys like Alstott, Rice and Lynch to drop to the top 15, but other than that, will be hard to kick off guys like
franchise starter and sack leader - Lee Roy Selmon
Cultural changers - Brooks and Sapp
All time receiving leader - Evans
Forever Bucs - Barber and David
Dont win a 2nd superbowl without him - Brady
Mayfield is getting some attention on ESPN.
He showed up #10 on their NFL GMs QB list. And he was videoed shotgunning 3 beers at the golf tournament last weekend.
My ten based on impact on the field over time. not community or fan popularity or projecting future results. Brady's impact was huge even for a short time. I have to include him.
1) Brooks
2) Evans
3) Sapp
4) Selmon
5) Barber
6) David
7) Lynch
8) Wirfs
9) Vea
10) Brady
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts - against the backdrop of Buccaneers QB’s he’s already put us into the playoffs more times than most of the QB’s in Buc history.Baker has shown he’s matured, and he has definitely improved the team. He’s a good QB, hope he can be a great one… but he’s already won more playoff games than the majority of Buccaneers QB’s - so he’s at least due consideration for a made up list that until recently has had a really low bar.Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Disagree about the consideration. He's played 2 years and it's not even close to Brady's 2020-2021. I think SR is the most level headed Bucs media guy but he's lost his mind with Baker, Jensen and Martin.
I’m not arguing that the list isn’t nauseating - but if we measure in passing yards, TD’s, and playoff wins, then the list narrows pretty dramatically.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts - against the backdrop of Buccaneers QB’s he’s already put us into the playoffs more times than most of the QB’s in Buc history.Baker has shown he’s matured, and he has definitely improved the team. He’s a good QB, hope he can be a great one… but he’s already won more playoff games than the majority of Buccaneers QB’s - so he’s at least due consideration for a made up list that until recently has had a really low bar.Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Disagree about the consideration. He's played 2 years and it's not even close to Brady's 2020-2021. I think SR is the most level headed Bucs media guy but he's lost his mind with Baker, Jensen and Martin.
I’m not arguing that the list isn’t nauseating - but if we measure in passing yards, TD’s, and playoff wins, then the list narrows pretty dramatically.
Well I don't think he's taken us to the playoffs, I think he's been along for the ride. There was a guy on one of those ESPN panel shows saying the Bucs would be the best team in the league with Herbert and I agree. I appreciate his effort and play making, but leading the league in both intercepions and fumbles behind this OL is inexcusable. And the jet fumble was 100% his fault.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts - against the backdrop of Buccaneers QB’s he’s already put us into the playoffs more times than most of the QB’s in Buc history.Baker has shown he’s matured, and he has definitely improved the team. He’s a good QB, hope he can be a great one… but he’s already won more playoff games than the majority of Buccaneers QB’s - so he’s at least due consideration for a made up list that until recently has had a really low bar.Baker Mayfield in the top 20 buccaneers lol. I'm a baker Bro but let's see how the contract plays out...it's been 2 great years for sure
Kyle trask has got to be in the top 15!!!
Disagree about the consideration. He's played 2 years and it's not even close to Brady's 2020-2021. I think SR is the most level headed Bucs media guy but he's lost his mind with Baker, Jensen and Martin.
I’m not arguing that the list isn’t nauseating - but if we measure in passing yards, TD’s, and playoff wins, then the list narrows pretty dramatically.
Well I don't think he's taken us to the playoffs, I think he's been along for the ride. There was a guy on one of those ESPN panel shows saying the Bucs would be the best team in the league with Herbert and I agree. I appreciate his effort and play making, but leading the league in both intercepions and fumbles behind this OL is inexcusable. And the jet fumble was 100% his fault.
"this team would have won more playoff games with Kyle Trask if he was just...given the opportunity"
lol...dude..Baker along for the ride after throwing 40+ TDs last year is a wild statement
Herbert is overrated mid; people have him rated in the top 10 but he isn't; shit i've seen list with Trevor Lawrence in top 10 and hes even worse
1-4 - Mahomes, Allan, Jackson, Burrow
5-9 - Daniels (might regress, but we will give him his due), Hurts, Goff, Baker, Stafford
then for the 10th spot, either goes to Dak, Love, or Stroud;
would put Herbert at 13; trevor likely in the 18th range