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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 750

      Lavante David is projecting to have a better career than him. Would be great if he got a super bowl. But, in any case, we have a future HOFer on our team in David. His stats are eye popping.

    • leeroybuc93

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      Post count: 1388

      So are Ronde’s… and people actually saw him play. Lavonte is criminally underrated. He’s not sniffing the HOF as of now because of where he plays and team success. Hopefully opinions on him will change soon with a national audience.

    • DonkeyHunter

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      Post count: 13924

      That’s one of the benefits of having a franchise QB like Brady.

      LVD will finally start getting the recognition he deserves.

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3289

      There’s no rhyme or reason to get into the hall of fame. Jason Taylor averaged 9 sacks a season with 0 post-season sacks and he’s in. Rice averaged 9 sacks a season with 8 post-season sacks and he will never get in.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 750

      There’s no rhyme or reason to get into the hall of fame. Jason Taylor averaged 9 sacks a season with 0 post-season sacks and he’s in. Rice averaged 9 sacks a season with 8 post-season sacks and he will never get in.

      Agree. It certainly marginalizes the achievement in my eyes. Kuechly is a near lock, and while him and David play(ed) different positions, David has superior stats and will play significantly longer, probably.

      How was Owens not a first ballot HOFer at WR? How did Broadway Joe get in??

    • Hockey Duckie

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      Post count: 1544

      I miss LVD being utilized by Schiano. The way Schiano was using him was straight stardom despite not being in the limelight. LVD was a first team all pro under Schiano!

      Have a gander at David’s stats. Notice his first two years compared to the rest.

    • leeroybuc93

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      Post count: 1388

      Broadway. That’s why Broadway Joe got in. There’s no Broadway in Tampa. It’s shitty but that’s the way it is.

    • DonkeyHunter

      Spectator
      Post count: 13924

      I miss LVD being utilized by Schiano. The way Schiano was using him was straight stardom despite not being in the limelight. LVD was a first team all pro under Schiano!

      Have a gander at David’s stats. Notice his first two years compared to the rest.

      His 2013 campaign was beastly.

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6946

      There’s no rhyme or reason to get into the hall of fame. Jason Taylor averaged 9 sacks a season with 0 post-season sacks and he’s in. Rice averaged 9 sacks a season with 8 post-season sacks and he will never get in.

      Well, Taylor has the clear advantage in many other categories – which explains why one is in and the other is out:

      Taylor: 788/536 solo tackles, 151 TFL, 87 PD, 46 FF, and 6 TD
      Rice: 483/403 solo tackles, 93 TFL, 43 PD, 28 FF, and 0 TD

      While they were pretty equal in getting the QB to the ground, Taylor was a much better overall player than Rice.

    • dexmonkey

      Participant
      Post count: 1982

      That’s one of the benefits of having a franchise QB like Brady.

      LVD will finally start getting the recognition he deserves.

      this is completely absurd to me. great players are great players even if theyre on terrible teams. its ridiculous that a guy gets overlooked because his team isnt one of the top 8 most viewed all the time

      its why the Pro Bowl is a joke year in and year out. its guys from good teams not the best players

    • Pewter Pirate

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      Post count: 1649

      Ronde Barber and Simeon Rice would be in if they played for the Redskins, Giants, Eagles, or Cowboys.

    • RHBucsFan

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      Post count: 2032

      David isn’t making the HOF. He has 1 career pro bowl. He’s the biggest snub in recent history if the league.

      If he was on the Cowboys we’d be talking about him like Urlacher. McCoy also undeservedly was the face of this franchise’s defense because he liked to get in front of a mic, but David was always the superior player.

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3289

      There’s no rhyme or reason to get into the hall of fame. Jason Taylor averaged 9 sacks a season with 0 post-season sacks and he’s in. Rice averaged 9 sacks a season with 8 post-season sacks and he will never get in.

      Well, Taylor has the clear advantage in many other categories – which explains why one is in and the other is out:

      Taylor: 788/536 solo tackles, 151 TFL, 87 PD, 46 FF, and 6 TD
      Rice: 483/403 solo tackles, 93 TFL, 43 PD, 28 FF, and 0 TD

      While they were pretty equal in getting the QB to the ground, Taylor was a much better overall player than Rice.

      Rice retired at 33, Taylor hung around till he was 37. Taylor having no sacks in 9 playoff games and being in the hall of fame is ridiculous.

      Another player that gets penalized for retiring early in Torry Holt. He was infinitely better than Terrell Owens but didn’t have any drama and was basically done at 31. Owens kept up with his bullshit till he was 37 and tacked on stats with teams like the Bills and Bengals.

    • RHBucsFan

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      Post count: 2032

      @JC5100 I agree completely that Simeon Rice is by far the better player to Jason Taylor. When I saw Taylor named to the HOF I didn’t get it.

    • Nobody

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      Post count: 6485

      Its really too bad that Pressure Rate wasn’t a primary metric for evaluating Pass Rushers back then. I’d love to see Simeon’s. If I had to wager, his all of his years of 96, 98-05 were above the requisite 12.5 % for elite status. Simeon won up the arc so damn often and would force a Hurry (climb or escape right).

      If someone paid me a lot of money, I would go back and watch all of the tape of football and basketball to calculate all of the advanced metrics that we’ve lost due to not having them available in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s.

      I would love to see MJ’s deflections generated, turnovers forced, blocks/steals, helps that led to failed offensive possessions in the last 4 minutes of the 4th quarter of the games he played (the minute that count). And his offensive efficiency and usage rate. I think if you had those metrics and could put them up against other players, you could trivially put to bed any idea that any other player in NBA history is even close to him.

      Similarly, I suspect you could easily make the case for Simeon with his Pressure Rate (which my guess is it was terrific).

    • Trask Force

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      Post count: 4107

      He would have to win a Superbowl and be one of the main forces behind that win. Then people will start talking about David, but its a longshot no matter how you slice it.

      What about the Ring of Honor? Does he fall into the same category as Gerald McCoy, a good player on a lot of bad teams? Why doesn’t David get the same kind of hate that McCoy got?

      Here’s an undeniable fact: You can’t put David into the Ring of Honor and not put McCoy there as it stands now.

    • seekpar

      Participant
      Post count: 1304

      Terrell Owens: He was a superior talent once he learned to stop dropping the ball. His diva attitude and all the bad blood he spread among the teams for which he played I believe played a big part in the delay getting in. And look what happened when they let him in, he stiffed the HOF.

      Joe Namath: Broadway as mentioned above, and iconic Super Bowl guaranteed win. Simple as that, nothing more.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      As someone who didn’t hate McCoy and is a huge supporter of LVD, I’ll put forth a guess.

      1) Their different personality archetypes. McCoy has a personality archetype that grates on certain people. LVD’s archetype is basically admired or respected by everyone.

      2) McCoy entered the league as the last line of the enormous contracts handed out to early 1st round picks. The fact that the team never ascended and he made so much money is likely resented by people.

      3) LVD was quietly and consistently one of the best players in the entire NFL (and certainly at his position) while being an absolute victim of the ridiculous ways they classify off-ball OLBs and on-ball Edge simultaneously. He should have been a perennial Pro Bowler and made several All Pros. But he got screwed hard. Everyone knows it. Everyone. Yet did you ever hear a word from LVD complaining about it? Not a one. The amount of respect and appreciation that people should have (and do have) for that composite is huge.

      4) McCoy was perceived as never taking over games in the way that Sapp did (while some of this is unfair and incorrect, McCoy was never close to the player that Sapp was). He was constantly in that shadow and under that Sword of Damocles. He was never going to live up to that. And Sapp let you know about it constantly as well. And McCoy clearly resented some of this with some passive aggressiveness (and sometimes overt aggressiveness). LVD never had this issue with respect to DB.

    • Donkey

      Participant
      Post count: 196

      Any discussion of HoF caliber Bucs that played on shitty teams and never got in should start with Paul Gruber.

    • Donkey

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      Post count: 196

      The argument against Barber I think is that he was never considered the best or even 2nd best CB in the league at any point in his career. Probably not even 3rd best. Sure he had a long and productive career and I’m not knocking him in any way. As a Buc fan I’d like to see him get in but I do see the rationale against it.

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6946

      There’s no rhyme or reason to get into the hall of fame. Jason Taylor averaged 9 sacks a season with 0 post-season sacks and he’s in. Rice averaged 9 sacks a season with 8 post-season sacks and he will never get in.

      Well, Taylor has the clear advantage in many other categories – which explains why one is in and the other is out:

      Taylor: 788/536 solo tackles, 151 TFL, 87 PD, 46 FF, and 6 TD
      Rice: 483/403 solo tackles, 93 TFL, 43 PD, 28 FF, and 0 TD

      While they were pretty equal in getting the QB to the ground, Taylor was a much better overall player than Rice.

      Rice retired at 33, Taylor hung around till he was 37. Taylor having no sacks in 9 playoff games and being in the hall of fame is ridiculous.

      Another player that gets penalized for retiring early in Torry Holt. He was infinitely better than Terrell Owens but didn’t have any drama and was basically done at 31. Owens kept up with his bullshit till he was 37 and tacked on stats with teams like the Bills and Bengals.

      You act as if Rice retired on his own accord, like Barry Sanders or Calvin Johnson. He didn’t. No NFL team wanted him anymore, which why he attempted to play in the UFL after “retiring” from the NFL. Taylor continued playing because he still could and NFL teams wanted him. Neither of those things are positives for Rice’s HOF argument.

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3289

      Rice got injured at 32/33 and was done. There’s nothing wrong that that. Just like there’s nothing special about Taylor primarily being a backup quality player at 34, 35, 36, 37 getting 3.5-7 sacks per season. Is that really what makes Taylor a hall of famer over Rice? Also bizarre that Jason Taylor was 2006 defensive player of the year when he had 13.5 sacks for a 6-10 team. Merriman had 17 sacks for a 14-2 team. Also had prime Urlacher taking Bears to Super Bowl with Rex Grossman. Heavy media bias for Taylor that he rode into Canton.

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6946

      Rice got injured at 32/33 and was done. There’s nothing wrong that that. Just like there’s nothing special about Taylor primarily being a backup quality player at 34, 35, 36, 37 getting 3.5-7 sacks per season. Is that really what makes Taylor a hall of famer over Rice? Also bizarre that Jason Taylor was 2006 defensive player of the year when he had 13.5 sacks for a 6-10 team. Merriman had 17 sacks for a 14-2 team. Also had prime Urlacher taking Bears to Super Bowl with Rex Grossman. Heavy media bias for Taylor that he rode into Canton.

      Why would Jason Taylor, playing for a shitty Dolphins team, be a media darling? Is it possible Taylor was better than you’d like to give him credit for?

      And yes, durability and longevity tend to help players get in the HOF. Rice would probably be in had he been able to play longer. But he wasn’t.

    • GermCanBuc

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      Post count: 342

      @Donkey I think part of the argument against Ronde along with what you stated is also 1) hes mostly seen as a system corner, because he chose to play for the same team his entire career where a historic defence was part of the fabric of the team, which I think is a stupid argument, and 2) I think there’s some “How many players from that defence are we going to put in? They only won one championship” type of vibe. I think we may finally see Lynch get in now that the safeties have gone through, but that will feed my second point ever more.

      In respect to the original topic, I’d love to see LVD get in, but I think he’s so underrated and unknown league wide it’s going to be a hard fought battle for him to get enough recognition regardless of what his numbers are.

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3289

      Only winning one championship hurts. They were just an average passing game away from winning up to 4 more.

    • MikeAlsottsShoulderPads

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      Post count: 11

      There’s no rhyme or reason to get into the hall of fame. Jason Taylor averaged 9 sacks a season with 0 post-season sacks and he’s in. Rice averaged 9 sacks a season with 8 post-season sacks and he will never get in.

      Well, Taylor has the clear advantage in many other categories – which explains why one is in and the other is out:

      Taylor: 788/536 solo tackles, 151 TFL, 87 PD, 46 FF, and 6 TD
      Rice: 483/403 solo tackles, 93 TFL, 43 PD, 28 FF, and 0 TD

      While they were pretty equal in getting the QB to the ground, Taylor was a much better overall player than Rice.

      Also:

      Taylor:
      2x AFC defensive player of the year (including one NFL defensive player of the year)
      6x Pro Bowler
      3x First-Team All-Pro

      vs.

      Rice:
      3x Pro Bowler
      1x First-Team All Pro

      Now the voting on these things is sometimes a joke. But still, those type of accolades matter.

    • MikeAlsottsShoulderPads

      Participant
      Post count: 11

      Rice got injured at 32/33 and was done. There’s nothing wrong that that. Just like there’s nothing special about Taylor primarily being a backup quality player at 34, 35, 36, 37 getting 3.5-7 sacks per season. Is that really what makes Taylor a hall of famer over Rice? Also bizarre that Jason Taylor was 2006 defensive player of the year when he had 13.5 sacks for a 6-10 team. Merriman had 17 sacks for a 14-2 team. Also had prime Urlacher taking Bears to Super Bowl with Rex Grossman. Heavy media bias for Taylor that he rode into Canton.

      2006

      Taylor:
      13.5 sacks
      9 forced fumbles (lead league)
      2 INT
      2 defensive TD

      Merriman:
      17 sacks
      4 forced fumbles
      1 INT
      0 defensive TD

      Not egregious to pick Taylor over Merriman.

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3289

      TDs vs Rex Grossman and 38 year old Brad Johnson, whoopty doo.

    • MikeAlsottsShoulderPads

      Participant
      Post count: 11

      QUOTE

      Good grief man, how cynical can you be?

      Let me guess: all of Jason Taylor’s stats that year were accumulated against terrible players, but all of Shawn Merriman’s stats were accumulated against Pro Bowl players.

      Not worth arguing with someone that is so blindly biased.

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3289

      Nobody cares about a TD off Rex Grossman when you’re 1-6, except brain dead sports writers. That helped his 1st ballot Hall of Fame candidacy more than Rice sacking, stripping and recovering a fumble off McNabb in the NFC Championship when the Eagles had the ball at the 24 yard line. The whole thing is fucked.

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6946

      Nobody cares about a TD off Rex Grossman when you’re 1-6, except brain dead sports writers. That helped his 1st ballot Hall of Fame candidacy more than Rice sacking, stripping and recovering a fumble off McNabb in the NFC Championship when the Eagles had the ball at the 24 yard line. The whole thing is fucked.

      This may surprise you, but players generally get voted into the HOF based on their entire career (which Taylor’s career > Rice’s career) instead one play.

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3289

      Using those plays as an example of a far less meaningful Taylor play counting more in the eyes of voters than a significant play that helped win a conference championship. Also Rice doesn’t even get credit for his 3rd sack in the Super Bowl because it came on a 2 point try. Even in the box score it just says “2 point conversion failed”.

      Not surprised that someone who crowned McCoy for his meaningless moments and disappearing act in big moments thinks Jason “0 post-season sacks” Taylor had a better career than Rice.

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6946

      Using those plays as an example of a far less meaningful Taylor play counting more in the eyes of voters than a significant play that helped win a conference championship. Also Rice doesn’t even get credit for his 3rd sack in the Super Bowl because it came on a 2 point try. Even in the box score it just says “2 point conversion failed”.

      Not surprised that someone who crowned McCoy for his meaningless moments and disappearing act in big moments thinks Jason “0 post-season sacks” Taylor had a better career than Rice.

      Oh, it’s not just me. The HOF voters thought Taylor was a first-ballot HOF. I doubt they’re very concerned about what the Red Board GM thinks, the guy that’s overvalued so many Buccaneers like Luke McCown, Davin Joseph, Josh Freeman, Maurice Stovall, Jeremy Trueblood, etc.. This is nothing new for you.

      Rice is a fringe hall of famer, while Taylor was a first-ballot guy. You’ll have to learn to live with that.

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3289

      “I didn’t think I would be a first-ballot guy,” Taylor says. “I thought the lack of a Super Bowl, the lack of playoff success, would come back to bite me.”

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 750

      Rice’s best was superior to Taylor’s best, Rice just didn’t burn bright for quite as long.

      Also, prior to this season, if you thought the Buc’s were irrelevant, the Dolphins are more so. Like no one gives a fuck about the Miami Dolphins on a national level. And few give a damn about them in Miami. They are just in front of the Cincinnati Bengals nationally.

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6946

      “I didn’t think I would be a first-ballot guy,” Taylor says. “I thought the lack of a Super Bowl, the lack of playoff success, would come back to bite me.”

      It didn’t, and Taylor’s humility is admirable.

      I’m not sure why this is so difficult for you to accept, but I find it entertaining. Thanks!

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