Bruce Arian's Arizona draft History- Not Great!

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  • #1175879
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Bruce Arian’s Arizona draft History- Not Great!

    thanks goodness for you guys ….you have Licht there to correct him when he’s off on his picks……

    Can anyone decipher this for me?

    I’ll help.

    You have a proven and talented GM Licht who can override Arians’ bad draft choices.

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    #1175892
    tog
    Participant

    Uh. This doesn’t paint the full picture. It’s just a case study on “first round selections” and doesn’t say anything about his ability to build a team, deconstruct a roster and rebuild it, and turn a team into a contender.

    What you can deduce from the draft positioning is Arians was successful for a majority of the seasons he was there.

    Also it doesn’t speak to the quality talent he was able to find in the later rounds. For example the 2013 draft he was able to Kevin Minter in the 2nd (who he was able to develop into a starting level LB after a couple years), Tyrann Mathieu in the 3rd, Andre Ellington in the 6th…

    Plus that was just the draft… The Cardinals keep a detailed breakdown of their franchise transactions by year and date here:

    https://www.azcardinals.com/team/transactions/2013

    If you go back to January 17 2013 when they hired Bruce and look at how he came in, evaluated the roster, and scrapped it down… then started building it up (arguably from scratch) you start to see what he and his team of coaches can do when it comes to evaluation, coaching, training, and building a team/roster.

    They immediately turned that dumpster fire around.

    The article in the OP is a good case study piece on the hit or miss nature of the draft and college prospects/projecting into the NFL level… but is not an indictment on his “personnel decisions”

    1) Completely correct that’s it’s disingenuous to just look at 1st round picks.

    2) We don’t know the power relationship between Arians and Keims. There are coaches who have more power (Lovie/Licht, Gruden/Mayock) although usually it’s the GMs who do (which is a change in the last 10 years).

    To lay these picks at Arians feet without supporting evidence is dumb. I’ve always got the impression, even before becoming a Buc, that Arians was hands-off in terms of scouting. Yes, like every coach there were guys he liked and he was involved in the process but that he ultimately leaves it up to the GM. And that’s what it sounds like it’ll be with the Bucs too.

    3) I do have to say that there were a TON (at TON) of bad picks over the Keim/Arians tenure. Minter was a bad pick (you expect a lot more from a 2nd round LB)

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/draft.htm

    I mean from 2013-2017 you’re looking at two clearly good picks in Matthieu and David Johnson. Outside of that you have a bunch of busts and then role players like John Brown, Bucannon, Golden, and Okafor. I really liked Baker, maybe he’ll be good.

    But in 5 drafts you have like two good players and a bunch of role players. It’s ugly and you have to wonder how much Licht “learned” from Keim.

    4) The really interesting point is how well Arians did in spite of these terrible drafts. I mean you look at the 2015 team and can easily see how it went 7-8-1 the next year. There are serious holes and a lot of players who are just not quite good enough.

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    #1175908
    Roy
    Participant

    ruce Arian’s Arizona draft History- Not Great!

    thanks goodness for you guys you have Licht there to correct him when he’s off on his picks……

    You have it totally wrong.  Arians came here because he trusts Licht to take the lead in the personnel area.  If he wanted to bring is his own GM and make all the important personnel decisions himself he could have found a team to hire him to do that.  The reason he surprised many by coming to Tampa Bay is that he wanted certain things to be in place.  He didn’t want to start from scratch this time and rebuild an entire franchise from the ground up.   He just wanted to come into an already established situation and do what he does best- coach.   He knows Licht.   He saw Winston here, another first overall pick he can whisper.

    He didn’t come here to be in charge of the draft room.  The draft board will be formed by a group process led by Licht.  Thats his job.   They will basically stick to that draft board.  They will pick the player he wants in the first round.  On Day 2 and Day 3 of the draft here is what Arians is going to say.  “Sure”.  “Yes.”  “Sounds good.”  “I agree.”  He’s going to have his veto power and won’t use it much if at all.

    I really believe Arians came to Tampa Bay because he just wants to coach.

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    #1175919
    Havok904
    Participant

    You have it totally wrong. Arians came here because he trusts Licht to take the lead in the personnel area.
    —-
    And how do you know this?

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    #1175922
    trollslayer
    Participant

    joebucsfan lol not a fan of that site outside of ira kaufman who sometimes himself can write the same type of nonsensical fluff pieces, the journalists over there write articles that are pure dribble they contradict their own articles one of the writers even STILL always refers to Jameis Winston as “America’s Quarterback” and “Pro Bowler” lol they actually blocked me from their site for commenting that their articles are straight doodoo… i do like Ira though and he’s a HOF voter who usually tries hard to get a buccaneer in every year and a poster above said it best– arians just wants to coach the GM and staff will do the rest

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    #1175929
    GoldsonAges
    Participant

    Arians was the Cards GM?

    Or was it Steve Keim?

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    GottaJaboo wrote:
    (Justin) Evans will be far superior to (Budda) Baker in the pros.

    Dan Skipper Sucks! (lost bet)
    Update - UDFA Dan Skipper has been signed by the Dallas Cowboys

    #1175930
    GoldsonAges
    Participant

    How can you blame the coach when the GM was the shot caller?

    I dont get it

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    GottaJaboo wrote:
    (Justin) Evans will be far superior to (Budda) Baker in the pros.

    Dan Skipper Sucks! (lost bet)
    Update - UDFA Dan Skipper has been signed by the Dallas Cowboys

    #1175956
    Roy
    Participant

    You have it totally wrong. Arians came here because he trusts Licht to take the lead in the personnel area.

    —-

    And how do you know this?

    Arians came to Tampa Bay because A) Arians thought Licht was pliable and would take directions from him so that he could control every aspect of the team, or B) because Arians wanted to come to a team with an experienced GM he was familiar with who would do his job and let Arians do his which is to coach.  You tell me which one you think is true.

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    #1175962
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    How can you blame the coach when the GM was the shot caller?

    I dont get it

    Gruden got the heat when you guys drafted some bad players. HCs have input, some more than others….guess Arians doesn’t?

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    #1175972
    Pennywise
    Participant

    You guys drafted?

     

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    #1175973
    BucFanFromATL
    Participant

    @tog

    I agree with that assessment. It really is a testament to how great of a coaching staff he put together. The lack of hits overall over the course of 4-5 years will put any franchise behind the 8-ball in terms of sustaining success… but there are many other factors that go into that as well.

    Bruce has always been the type of guy to respect “lanes”… He for the most part stays in his lane. Everything they seem to do is collaborative in nature, and he being the Head Coach does have a level of veto/say so power. But from almost every person I’ve heard speak about him and the way he operates, he doesn’t come off as the the authoritarian type when it comes to decision making. He speaks of “trust” and “family” ect… and everyone around him seems to corroborate that sentiment. The only way you can touch so many people from so many different backgrounds and maintain those life long relationships is to live it and demonstrate those values in your actions.

    From what he preaches/speaks/and gives up to the media is that he likes a lot of different voices in the room. So it sounds like (imo) that his coaching staff will be detailing to Licht and his Scouting/Recruiting/Pro Personnel Depts the types of players they are looking for, what type of schemes they want to implement etc and then trust that Licht and his staff will find those players… I imagine Licht will then meet with everyone to go over the draft strategy and the big board and go over each prospect and get feedback from the coaches and possibly rearrange that board based on feedback.

    The only time I can see Arians straight up Vetoing Jason is when he suggests something dumb like trading up in the 2nd to draft a kicker smh…
    I can imagine Bruce dumping a bunch of expletives in that war room.

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    #1176003
    Havok904
    Participant

    Arians came to Tampa Bay because A) Arians thought Licht was pliable and would take directions from him so that he could control every aspect of the team, or B) because Arians wanted to come to a team with an experienced GM he was familiar with who would do his job and let Arians do his which is to coach. You tell me which one you think is true.

    I Pick A.

    But answer the question I posed to you.

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    #1176006
    GameTime
    Participant

    Arians came to Tampa Bay because A) Arians thought Licht was pliable and would take directions from him so that he could control every aspect of the team, or B) because Arians wanted to come to a team with an experienced GM he was familiar with who would do his job and let Arians do his which is to coach. You tell me which one you think is true.

    I Pick A.

    I think B.  Arians has already given up playcalling.  I think the dude just wants to coach.  In Tampa hes got a relatively young QB who could be a franchise guy and a GM he is familiar with.

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    #1176010
    Roy
    Participant

    How can you blame the coach when the GM was the shot caller?

    I dont get it

    Gruden got the heat when you guys drafted some bad players. HCs have input, some more than others….guess Arians doesn’t?

    He has the amount of input that he wants.   Its not about draft day.  Its about the draft evaluation process.    If the GM is in charge of evaluating the prospects, then you can’t really justify throwing your weight around in the war room during the draft.  Again, I’m not talking about pick #5.    I’m talking about the rest of the draft trades and picks.  If Arians is going to be taking charge, he’d be doing it now while they are evaluating and setting up their draft board.   To try to take charge in the war room when you don’t know the prospects well enough would be a big mistake that I don’t think Arians would make.  I’m not in One Buc and I certainly could be wrong, but based on what we all see publicly I don’t get the sense that he is acting like the orchestra leader and directing everything when it comes to the draft.

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    #1176013
    BucFanFromATL
    Participant

    @Havok904

    I pick B. For the same reasons @GameTime pointed out. Since he’s arrived he hasn’t given off the vibe of being super hands on and authoritarian. It seems like he is taking more of a big picture delegation approach and focusing on coaching/teaching/mentoring/and building people (from players to coaches).

    It seems like the relationship he has with Licht, the trust is already there. He didn’t come in here to step on Jason’s toes. I think they will be working collaboratively, but Arians isn’t controlling the draft. His input will heavily influence the direction we go but in terms of building a big board and scouting etc he’s doesn’t seem to be involved in that.

    I’m not there in the office, so ultimately I don’t know. But my guess is B.

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