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It is not about amazing talent at all 11 spots. The problem is the Bucs don't have disciplined players. Too much free lancing, not trusting the guy next to him to do his assignment. Not staying in gaps, poor hand and foot technique. When you have a MIKE and safties that bite consistently at window dressing (Kelly's offense takes it to another level) the Tampa 2 falls apart.The Tampa 2 is about disciplined, smart play.Bucs players need to play smarter, or find players that play smart.
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Anonymous
InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:18 pmPost count: 2594It is not about amazing talent at all 11 spots. The problem is the Bucs don't have disciplined players. Too much free lancing, not trusting the guy next to him to do his assignment. Not staying in gaps, poor hand and foot technique. When you have a MIKE and safties that bite consistently at window dressing (Kelly's offense takes it to another level) the Tampa 2 falls apart.The Tampa 2 is about disciplined, smart play.Bucs players need to play smarter, or find players that play smart.
Great post. However note they looked horrible last year. They definitely added a little talent but you have to wonder if it really just took that long to set in.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:21 pmPost count: 8096
Maybe putting Claiborne on IR helped…
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:24 pmPost count: 376
According to the Dallas players, Marinelli is running the same system as last year, but they say he pays more attention to the details and stresses the little things more. Maybe Lovie and Frazier are too hands off, maybe the players actually do need a drill sergeant type coach hounding them all the time.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:27 pmPost count: 883
Yup.We don't need amazing talent everywhere, as you stated.We do need some more, though, as Bradentonian eluded to...This, and their, defense REQUIRES, and is DEPENDENT on, players being disciplined and knowing their roll, technique etc. within the scheme.People do not want to hear it and some don't even believe it. Even with so many former players coming out and saying it. We need a little more talent in the secondary and at least one edge rusher that is worth a damn. Other than that? Time.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:27 pmPost count: 517
It certainly would be interesting to the see the different results between Rod and Leslie’s D’s
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:36 pmPost count: 4274
Yup.We don't need amazing talent everywhere, as you stated.We do need some more, though, as Bradentonian eluded to...This, and their, defense REQUIRES, and is DEPENDENT on, players being disciplined and knowing their roll, technique etc. within the scheme.People do not want to hear it and some don't even believe it. Even with so many former players coming out and saying it. We need a little more talent in the secondary and at least one edge rusher that is worth a damn. Other than that? Time.
Yeah it is going to take time but is clear that this team needs a cover safety, RDE edge rusher and a MIKE that can drop back to protect the pipe (between the hasmarks).
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:44 pmPost count: 4623
According to the Dallas players, Marinelli is running the same system as last year, but they say he pays more attention to the details and stresses the little things more.
This. It's not like it just took them time to figure out what Kiffin was trying to tell them. It's that Kiffin didn't know how to tell them in a way the players understood and now Marinelli does.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:48 pmPost count: 8044
So marinelli wasn’t coaching Dallas last year? Or monte wouldnt allow marinelli to coach the way marinelli wanted? Was marinelli ignoring the details last season? Or could it possibly be that it took the players some time to understand and trust the scheme while making split second decisions in adverse conditions?
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:52 pmPost count: 4623
So marinelli wasn't coaching Dallas last year? Or monte wouldnt allow marinelli to coach the way marinelli wanted? Was marinelli ignoring the details last season? Or could it possibly be that it took the players some time to understand and trust the scheme while making split second decisions in adverse conditions?
Marinelli wasn't the coordinator.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 5:53 pmPost count: 4274
So marinelli wasn't coaching Dallas last year? Or monte wouldnt allow marinelli to coach the way marinelli wanted? Was marinelli ignoring the details last season? Or could it possibly be that it took the players some time to understand and trust the scheme while making split second decisions in adverse conditions?
Derrick Brooks said that it is going to take time.I agree based on what I am seeing. But some players are simply bad fits for this scheme and shouldn't be starting. Goldshon and Barron are box safties but not disciplined enough to play in space.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 6:04 pmPost count: 376
So marinelli wasn't coaching Dallas last year? Or monte wouldnt allow marinelli to coach the way marinelli wanted? Was marinelli ignoring the details last season? Or could it possibly be that it took the players some time to understand and trust the scheme while making split second decisions in adverse conditions?
I'm only looking at what the Cowboy players are stating themselves. Lovie and Frazier seem to me to be low key and soft spoken. Maybe it will take a year in the system, or maybe the players today respond better to the intense coaching as Carr just said about Marinelli.http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/10/04/6174533/marinellis-intensity-is-engine.html"“Second year in the system, everybody tends to grow up, and hopefully you learn from the previous year,” cornerback Brandon Carr said. “At the same time, although the tone is similar to Kiffin, as far as the way we hustle and get after the opposing offense, Rod brings that extra maniac level, I guess. It’s fast, intense. He has a way of getting the best out of the guys, and that’s what you’ve been seeing this year. Just guys trying to exceed the expectations and make plays.”
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 6:09 pmPost count: 4274
The problem I am seeing is the Bucs are playing a passive Tampa 2 with zones way too soft.When Lovie was a DC for the Rams, his defense never played this soft, and neither did Frazier's when he was with the Colts. They need to sit down and communicate the players to tighten up their play.Anyway possible fast.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 6:35 pmPost count: 503
It is not about amazing talent at all 11 spots. The problem is the Bucs don't have disciplined players. Too much free lancing, not trusting the guy next to him to do his assignment. Not staying in gaps, poor hand and foot technique. When you have a MIKE and safties that bite consistently at window dressing (Kelly's offense takes it to another level) the Tampa 2 falls apart.The Tampa 2 is about disciplined, smart play.Bucs players need to play smarter, or find players that play smart.
Right on.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 6:36 pmPost count: 503
Us not getting Marinelli might be a huge detail.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 6:46 pmPost count: 4274
Losing out on Marinelli may have been a big deal but right now they need to turn this ship around. Don’t worry what others are doing.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 7:05 pmPost count: 8044
So marinelli wasn't coaching Dallas last year? Or monte wouldnt allow marinelli to coach the way marinelli wanted? Was marinelli ignoring the details last season? Or could it possibly be that it took the players some time to understand and trust the scheme while making split second decisions in adverse conditions?
Marinelli wasn't the coordinator.
the coordinator is the only one allowed to explain things? If it was this easy why didn’t marinelli just explain it last year?
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 7:34 pmPost count: 9
It’s all about the MLB position. Anyone see Rolando McClain get deep down the middle against the Seahawks and make the interception to seal the game? That’s what we have been missing for quite some time. You can’t play this defense without someone elite at that position. Foster is average at best.IMHO that is our number 1 need. A Patrick Willis, Hardy Nickerson type in the middle of our defense would make a world of difference.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 7:42 pmPost count: 4344
first of all the Tampa 2 is predicated on getting pressure with 4 DLthe fact that we didnt even record a qb hit or knockdown yesterday tells you all that you need to know. i couldnt stand to watch much of the game but im assuming they doubled McCoy to death and the other 3 couldnt beat 1 on 1 blocking. someone else besides McCoy has to be able to make a play. hes going to draw doubles and it requires everyone else to make something happen
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 8:28 pmPost count: 4623
So marinelli wasn't coaching Dallas last year? Or monte wouldnt allow marinelli to coach the way marinelli wanted? Was marinelli ignoring the details last season? Or could it possibly be that it took the players some time to understand and trust the scheme while making split second decisions in adverse conditions?
Marinelli wasn't the coordinator.
the coordinator is the only one allowed to explain things? If it was this easy why didn't marinelli just explain it last year?
Marinelli only coached the front 4, to which Jason Hatcher and George Selvie had by far the best season of their careers. He didn't have anything to do with the back 7, where Dallas got abused. It comes down to this. You can either believe the guy who hasn't been relevant at any level of football since 2009 was on the precipice of turning things around or the guy who was an excellent position coach in 2013 and excellent coordinator in 2012 did it. Your choice.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 8:56 pmPost count: 1828
don’t get your hopes up.Dallas was running a 3-4 when Ryan was their DC. Last year they brought in Marinelli and switched to the cover 2. That is why they had so many issues last year. They had a new system and personnel that wasn't fit for it.We HAVE the personnel for the cover 2, heck our coach 3 seasons ago ran the same system so some of these guys were drafted for this particular scheme. Truth is, our players on D aren't that good. Apart from David and McCoy, it's a bunch of scrubs out there with piss poor fundamentals and football IQs. We shipped off Revis and replaced him with a bunch of practice squad level players.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 9:24 pmPost count: 169
The problem I am seeing is the Bucs are playing a passive Tampa 2 with zones way too soft.When Lovie was a DC for the Rams, his defense never played this soft, and neither did Frazier's when he was with the Colts. They need to sit down and communicate the players to tighten up their play.Anyway possible fast.
That's what has me so confused is the really passive play by the secondary ...yesterday in the horrendous first quarter they were lining up on the receivers but never attempted to give them any type of even mild jam to disrupt timing ...then turning and running with their backs to the QB (instead of "eyes in the backfield") and letting the WR make the simplest of inside moves to get wide open ...it was just confusing to me what they were trying to accomplish with that scheme??? It looked like man coverage ...yet they (the CB's) were running into deep zones ...yet no one (LB's, safeties) were dropping/stepping up to take away the middle zones? It's like the coaches got too cute with their calls and it just confused everyone BUT the Ravens.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 9:32 pmPost count: 200
This alldaway guy must be blind as a bat to think the defense will get better with the same coaches and schemes. No defense allows their receivers to run WIDE open. It does not even happen in college. I don’t think our players are this bad.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 11:01 pmPost count: 64
It is not about amazing talent at all 11 spots. The problem is the Bucs don't have disciplined players. Too much free lancing, not trusting the guy next to him to do his assignment. Not staying in gaps, poor hand and foot technique. When you have a MIKE and safties that bite consistently at window dressing (Kelly's offense takes it to another level) the Tampa 2 falls apart.The Tampa 2 is about disciplined, smart play.Bucs players need to play smarter, or find players that play smart.
Great post. However note they looked horrible last year. They definitely added a little talent but you have to wonder if it really just took that long to set in.
yes last year they had the worst defense in the nfl giving up 17 more point a game then anyone else 3rd worst of all time. They didn’t really add any top talent players they lost ware hatcher and lee to injury. Our corner have to play better instead of giving the recievers so much cushion jam them on the line. We need better talent at the corner position. Behind verner and banks we r screwed. I think it will just take time for everyone to get comfortable to running this type of defense.
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 11:06 pmPost count: 6677
According to the Dallas players, Marinelli is running the same system as last year, but they say he pays more attention to the details and stresses the little things more.
This. It's not like it just took them time to figure out what Kiffin was trying to tell them. It's that Kiffin didn't know how to tell them in a way the players understood and now Marinelli does.
ever hear Monte talk? Who the hell can understand him?
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InactiveOct. 13, 2014 at 11:12 pmPost count: 2630
Great post. For the people who think our defense lacks talent, look at the Cowboys. They have no one on their defense even close to the caliber of McCoy or David and our defense has much more talent, yet their defense looks lightyears better. It comes down to guys trusting each other and coaching. If Frazier doesn’t fix this defense very soon, he needs to be fired at the end of the season, or before I don’t really care..
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:19 amPost count: 11506
Marinelli was blitzing a lot yesterday and I saw them going press bump and run on 3rd downs .They may be running the same shell defense , but Marinelli is much more aggressive than Monte and Lovie in the play-calling.
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:26 amPost count: 2829
Bucs and Cowboys are tied for 31st in yards per play allowed with 6.1. /thread
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:47 amPost count: 873
Bucs and Cowboys are tied for 31st in yards per play allowed with 6.1. /thread
lol
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 1:01 amPost count: 2000
Bucs and Cowboys are tied for 31st in yards per play allowed with 6.1. /thread
....and 2nd in first downs allowed per game. /thread
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Hello,Long-Time lurker/ghoster on these forums. This past Sunday did enough to compel me to register and join the conversation. However, this particular thread caught my attention. First, Rolando McClain getting to the deep middle as the "Mike in the Pipe" on that final play to seal the victory was vintage Tampa-2. With that being said. The Cowboys actually shut-down the 'Hawks with a ton of man coverage on Sunday. On the 'Hawks second to last drive, on 4th and 3, the Cowboys were in all man coverage. You can see Seattle tried to get a cheap first down with a rub route, but, Scandrick's press was able to delay the receiver and the pick didn't happen. That's a man beater play, not zone. Scandrick played it perfectly. Just wanted to chime in. Not trying to prove anyone wrong, but, just wanted to point out that while Marinelli may be from the "Dungy Tree," even he is willing to adjust his gameplan to his personnel and played a ton of man coverage.
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 11:32 amPost count: 11506
Hello,Long-Time lurker/ghoster on these forums. This past Sunday did enough to compel me to register and join the conversation. However, this particular thread caught my attention. First, Rolando McClain getting to the deep middle as the "Mike in the Pipe" on that final play to seal the victory was vintage Tampa-2. With that being said. The Cowboys actually shut-down the 'Hawks with a ton of man coverage on Sunday. On the 'Hawks second to last drive, on 4th and 3, the Cowboys were in all man coverage. You can see Seattle tried to get a cheap first down with a rub route, but, Scandrick's press was able to delay the receiver and the pick didn't happen. That's a man beater play, not zone. Scandrick played it perfectly. Just wanted to chime in. Not trying to prove anyone wrong, but, just wanted to point out that while Marinelli may be from the "Dungy Tree," even he is willing to adjust his gameplan to his personnel and played a ton of man coverage.
Yep, That's what I saw also.If anything Marinelli is an example that if Lovie made adjustments , things could get better.
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:17 pmPost count: 943
Disagree ADW. Dallas was awful last year.This year they are mediocre and the bottom of the NFL in some categories. It helps a lot when you have a guy like Romo and a RB like Murray sustaining drives and putting up 40+ points per game.We dont have that, and it doesnt look like we have that on the horizon. More turnover at the QB and RB position likely. This scheme does not work anymore. Safeties cannot tee off on that seem route like they used to be able to, it is just a penalty now. This is literally the worst defense I have ever seen. Even Glennon referenced a "cover 2 beater" in the win over pittsburgh. I understand things take time. But does anyone here have any legit confidence Lovie can turn this thing around? I was told things take time with Raheem and Greg, neither worked out. I think I have a pretty good eyeball test to judge stink as a result of the years I have endured as a fan. This stinks. Things take time to develop, its on the Glazer boys to put in the right person to develop a system, they have failed at that again. Talent evaluation seems to be a real issue for Lovie, virtually all of his expensive free agents have failed. This is also the guy that sent us a 2nd round pick for Gaines Adams...
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:26 pmPost count: 4623
I heard Keyshawn say on Monday Night Countdown that Marinelli isn’t running a traditional Tampa Two.
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:35 pmPost count: 943
I heard Keyshawn say on Monday Night Countdown that Marinelli isn't running a traditional Tampa Two.
I have heard that a couple of times as well. I would like to see an explanation and break down from an unbiased analyst. All these guys like Derrick Brooks, Steve White, Booger etc. have a bias toward the traditional Tampa 2. I would like to see Greg Cosell break it down, or maybe Becht, somebody that is not going to give us information as they want to dictate.
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:38 pmPost count: 8044
I heard Keyshawn say on Monday Night Countdown that Marinelli isn't running a traditional Tampa Two.
ive heard we aren’t running a traditional tampa 2 either.
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InactiveOct. 14, 2014 at 12:52 pmPost count: 11506
I heard Keyshawn say on Monday Night Countdown that Marinelli isn't running a traditional Tampa Two.
ive heard we aren't running a traditional tampa 2 either.
No . We've taken the traditionally soft coverage and made it even softer.
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InactiveOct. 17, 2014 at 12:06 amPost count: 4274
I suppose we are all in agreement that the Bucs are not currently running a traditional tampa 2. IMO Bucs base defense should be a cover 3, like most NFL defenses and then try to mix it up.
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InactiveOct. 17, 2014 at 4:52 pmPost count: 2697
it takes a while for guys to learn the coverages when they are in T2 coverage….when it's not working, it looks like a busted zone scheme.....without a pass rush, these guys can't get pass learning the basic T2 coverages...
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InactiveOct. 17, 2014 at 10:07 pmPost count: 169
Just saw a brief segment on Cowboys D on NFL Live, and it did NOT resemble Lovie/Frazier’s passive defense in any respect. They were “zone-blitzin’, and “double-A gap” blitzing, and playing much more aggressively, in respect to getting after the QB. There is NO way anyone can say the Cowboy’s have more talent on D than we do, BUT their coaching is EXPONENTIALLY better. The ‘Boys are playing without their 2 best players last season, in Sean Lee and Ware, who’s in Denver, and are playing Rolondo McClain, who been out of football for 2 years, at the critical MLB position. This monstrosity of a defense is squarely on Lovie Smith. I think he surrounded himself with “yes” guys on the defensive coaching staff, and its very concerning that he got his son coaching the Safety’s. Is Smith’s son really the best we could find to coach the S position? Unless this coaching staff in BLOWN UP, this will be a continuing disaster on defense, IMO. Giving Lovie Smith free reign was a HUGE mistake by the Glazers.
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InactiveOct. 17, 2014 at 10:14 pmPost count: 1324
I believe this is just further example of the Buccaneers having bad coaching. The players are not prepared to play on game day. They look confused and unmotivated. Maybe they are not the right players for this Lovie 2 or whatever it is. Who is to blame for that? Certainly the FA’s Lovie’s hand picked GM brought in don’t seem to get it.It all stems from the Glazers not even bothering to interview ANYONE but Lovie Smith. Didn't bother to listen to ANYONE. Obviously, preparation is not their strong suit either.
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InactiveOct. 17, 2014 at 10:17 pmPost count: 169
Disagree ADW. Dallas was awful last year.This year they are mediocre and the bottom of the NFL in some categories. It helps a lot when you have a guy like Romo and a RB like Murray sustaining drives and putting up 40+ points per game.We dont have that, and it doesnt look like we have that on the horizon. More turnover at the QB and RB position likely. This scheme does not work anymore. Safeties cannot tee off on that seem route like they used to be able to, it is just a penalty now. This is literally the worst defense I have ever seen. Even Glennon referenced a "cover 2 beater" in the win over pittsburgh. I understand things take time. But does anyone here have any legit confidence Lovie can turn this thing around? I was told things take time with Raheem and Greg, neither worked out. I think I have a pretty good eyeball test to judge stink as a result of the years I have endured as a fan. This stinks. Things take time to develop, its on the Glazer boys to put in the right person to develop a system, they have failed at that again. Talent evaluation seems to be a real issue for Lovie, virtually all of his expensive free agents have failed. This is also the guy that sent us a 2nd round pick for Gaines Adams...
Great post! It should be noticed that the Cowboys have drafted an Olineman in the first round or second in the last 3 years, and its paying huge dividends. They dont have to put up 40 points a game, if they control the ball for majority of time. Hope the Bucs are paying attention to what drafting Oline can do for ALL aspects of your team. If you control the clock and dont go 3 and out and throw every down, it certainly makes it easier to play defense.
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