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    • Moe Green

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      Post count: 53

      Lamar Miller is only 24 years old compared to Martin who is 27.  Lamar Miller runs a 4.40 40 yard dash compared to Doug at 4.55.  He is taller and better at catching the ball.  In the last 3 years, he hasn’t missed a game behind that horrible Miami Oline.  He will be cheaper than Doug and his speed will freeze linebackers and open up the seams for ASJ and Jameis.It doesn't sit well with me that Martin was 20 pounds over weight the 2 years before his "contract year".  He loses the 20 pounds and returns to his rookie self.  Whats to say he doesn't get complacent again as soon as he gets paid?  I rather go with Miller who will get less money and will be a lot hungrier than Doug Martin.  Please Titans pay Doug a crazy amount of money and take him from us!!!!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Great thread

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      Maybe the Titans will pay Miller

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1271

      We already have a Lamar Miller type back in Charles Sims. Both of them are nice running the ball a few times a game and working into the passing attack, but neither is built for 20 touches a game like Martin is.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 161

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 10626

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 161

      Like I said, he’s an awesome change of pace back. He’s not somebody you want to give the ball to in short yardage situations or someone you want to have pound the ball up the middle of the field. He’s good for some home run plays on the outside and great pass catching though. We need to keep him in that type of role where he’s comfortable.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      Like I said, he's an awesome change of pace back. He's not somebody you want to give the ball to in short yardage situations or someone you want to have pound the ball up the middle of the field. He's good for some home run plays on the outside and great pass catching though. We need to keep him in that type of role where he's comfortable.

      Well, if Dougie wants AP money, we might find out if you are right about Charles not being able to carry the load.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 746

      Yea, we already have Sims.  If Doug wants big money we can get by with what we have and another random back.  Next years draft should be loaded with quality at the position, and I’m hoping for Dalvin Cook.  That kid is crazy good.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 86

      We already have a Lamar Miller type back in Charles Sims. Both of them are nice running the ball a few times a game and working into the passing attack, but neither is built for 20 touches a game like Martin is.

      Actually the problem in Miami is they didn't give Miller the ball enough.  In 2014 he ran the ball 216 times and gained 1099 yards.  5.1YPC2015:  He only got the ball 194 times for 872 yards 4.5 YPC and if you look at many of Miami's games, Miller would have a good first half and then the Dolphins would completely go away from the run.  It was a big reason why Philbin and Lazor got fired during the season.  Miller can carry the load, as evidenced by him not missing a game in the last 3 years.  Martin missed 15 games in 2013 - 2014.  Martin is 3 years older and has more wear on the tires.  Miller is a no brainer.  I'm really interested to see if our front office has a clue.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 10626

      We already have a Lamar Miller type back in Charles Sims. Both of them are nice running the ball a few times a game and working into the passing attack, but neither is built for 20 touches a game like Martin is.

      Actually the problem in Miami is they didn't give Miller the ball enough.  In 2014 he ran the ball 216 times and gained 1099 yards.  5.1YPC2015:  He only got the ball 194 times for 872 yards 4.5 YPC and if you look at many of Miami's games, Miller would have a good first half and then the Dolphins would completely go away from the run.  It was a big reason why Philbin and Lazor got fired during the season.  Miller can carry the load, as evidenced by him not missing a game in the last 3 years.  Martin missed 15 games in 2013 - 2014.  Martin is 3 years older and has more wear on the tires.  Miller is a no brainer.  I'm really interested to see if our front office has a clue.

      Sims played in 16 games last season and averaged more yards per carry than Lamar.  Close to 5 YPC

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 295

      Lamar was under used in Miami, and is a great back, but NOBODY should be entertaining this goofball threadMartin is the man here and that's about it

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      Maybe the Titans will pay Miller

      At a much cheaper price as per the OP.  :D

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 172

      Miller is a no brainer.  I'm really interested to see if our front office has a clue.

      A no brainer besides that, y'know, Doug Martin is a better player.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Why not Alfred Morris?  As a backup option.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4140

      It’s a drop in the bucket to pay Martin $7-8m per year.I see no value in paying for a less productive guy at this point.Is Moe = Lamar?

    • rogersgc

      Participant
      Post count: 1084

      Why not Alfred Morris?  As a backup option.

      He's gotten worse every yearhttp://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MorrAl00.htm

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Miller is a no brainer.  I'm really interested to see if our front office has a clue.

      A no brainer besides that, y'know, Doug Martin is a better player.

      I'm going to go ahead and say that the OP is a Dolphin's fan, playing a Jedi mind trick on us.  There is no planet where Miller is part of the answer here in Tampa.

    • williebrowntown

      Member
      Post count: 493

      If you’re scared Martin will get complacent and come in overweight, put incentives in his new contract that he has to be at a certain weight before certain dates that way you know he’s staying in shape. Something like they did with Penn to make sure he was at a good weight to start the season, they should have put more clauses in there to make sure he keeps the weight off all year… as far as going with Miller I get he’s younger and if he was here last year those long runs doug had would have been TDs if it were Miller but there’s more value to me in having a guy in Martin to go with Sims they’re 2 different types, the best RB tandem in the league. We know what Doug can do in Koetter offense. I’m not a fan of bringing in guys that a few teams are gonna be in a bidding war for cause the highest payer wins the player but the player usually dosent work out. I’ve always believed in sticking to what you know works (Doug) and if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it (Bringing in Miller)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1828

      OP starts a thread listing nothing but measurable like these are 2 rookies at the combine we are considering drafting.NFL film trumps all that. No contest. Doug wins all day err day.Re-sign Doug.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      NFL film trumps all that. No contest. Doug wins all day err day.

      It's a pretty close contest, actually.  Which RB wins "all day err day"?Running Back "A" - Career 4.6 YPC and 19 Rushing TD'sRunning Back "B" - Career 4.4 YPC and 20 Rushing TD's 

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      NFL film trumps all that. No contest. Doug wins all day err day.

      It's a pretty close contest, actually.  Which RB wins "all day err day"?Running Back "A" - Career 4.6 YPC and 19 Rushing TD'sRunning Back "B" - Career 4.4 YPC and 20 Rushing TD's

      Dirk knows how to use the RBs we have.  Tough to roll the dice with someone that we don't know will work with Koetter. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1828

      NFL film trumps all that. No contest. Doug wins all day err day.

      It's a pretty close contest, actually.  Which RB wins "all day err day"?Running Back "A" - Career 4.6 YPC and 19 Rushing TD'sRunning Back "B" - Career 4.4 YPC and 20 Rushing TD's

      You're not going to agree with this, but I'm going with Doug. I've watched them both closely, and I actually really like Lamar Miller and think the Dolphins need to be giving him more touches but they seem obsessed with running everything through Landry. Doug has elite talent which I don't see in Miller. I'm also going to throw out Doug's injured years because I think he was legit injured those years. My eyeball test says they're not on the same level.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 175

      Reggie Bush ran a 4.33, bring him in!…Lamar Miller? C’mon guy, he’s not even close to being or ever being on Doug Martin’s level.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3169

      Lamar Miller is only 24 years old compared to Martin who is 27.  Lamar Miller runs a 4.40 40 yard dash compared to Doug at 4.55.  He is taller and better at catching the ball.  In the last 3 years, he hasn't missed a game behind that horrible Miami Oline.  He will be cheaper than Doug and his speed will freeze linebackers and open up the seams for ASJ and Jameis.It doesn't sit well with me that Martin was 20 pounds over weight the 2 years before his "contract year".  He loses the 20 pounds and returns to his rookie self.  Whats to say he doesn't get complacent again as soon as he gets paid?  I rather go with Miller who will get less money and will be a lot hungrier than Doug Martin.  Please Titans pay Doug a crazy amount of money and take him from us!!!!

      I wouldn't have a problem with Miller over Martin, but everything to me is about the money.  Both are solid backs and the Bucs could win with either.  I'm fine with taking whoever is the cheapest.  RB's are easily replaceable and a lot of money should be spent on them.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3341

      Lamar Miller? C'mon guy, he's not even close to being or ever being on Doug Martin's level.

      He's closer than you guys would like to admit:Running Back "A" - Career 4.6 YPC and 19 Rushing TD'sRunning Back "B" - Career 4.4 YPC and 20 Rushing TD's ...and one of these RB's is two years younger than the other.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      Doug, to me is not a versatile HB. He is excellent running the football when supremely motivated. That’s a pretty big deal for a running back. It is what gives him value. He is a negative beyond the los. He has shown no development in his hands or his ability to run routes. I see zero improvement in his game there from the day we drafted him. I think he has improved his pass protection some, but he was really pretty bad when he got here. I’m also not sure of how much of my feeling of improved blocking is just improved focus/effort. Like his improved running from scrimmage this season, I wouldn’t count on maintaining that level. Would be interested in his PFF blocking scores this season (going back as well, would be even better).You resign your own players inlarge part because generally you can sign them for less than equivalent talent on the open market. If we can do that with Doug, great.  Paying a player based on a great year after multiple bad years is a very stupid idea from my perspective. Not nearly close enough to Doug to know how much of last year's extraordinary effort level remains after a contract is signed. Not interested at all in giving him a fair open market contract.

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Lamar Miller? C'mon guy, he's not even close to being or ever being on Doug Martin's level.

      He's closer than you guys would like to admit:Running Back "A" - Career 4.6 YPC and 19 Rushing TD'sRunning Back "B" - Career 4.4 YPC and 20 Rushing TD's ...and one of these RB's is two years younger than the other.

      In Tampa, it's not a chance we can take.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      At some point though, we need to stop managing our franchise like a terrible franchise if we actually want to stop being a terrible franchise.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2445

      I love Dougie, and i would pay him but not a big fan of paying him a ridiculous amount like Murray. It also depends on what the money would otherwise be used on. If Dougie wont budge on 8mill, then I do think wed be better off with Ivory + Sims and using that saved money to help get someone like Mario Williams(if available) and a corner or something. If we dont have big spending plans to bring in outside help then i guess pay martin what he wants for one more contract.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1110

      Koetter and Jason L. need Jameis to keep improving or they’ll both wind up on the hot seat.  Try letting Doug M. get away and see how Jameis’ season goes next year.  It may not go well anyway due to the seemingly tougher schedule, but without Doug M.?  Jameis fans should be begging Doug to stay.  I’m confident he’ll be here.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2445

      Would hate to loose Martin but wed certainly survive the hit. Plenty of Rbs to combine with Sims in order to continue our success at running the ball. I dont think Miller is that great, but sure hes an option. Heres the list..Matt Asiata, Minnesota VikingsMonte Ball, New England PatriotsLeGarrette Blount, New England PatriotsAhmad Bradshaw, Indianapolis ColtsBryce Brown, Seattle SeahawksReggie Bush, San Francisco 49ersTravaris Cadet, New Orleans SaintsShaun Draughn, San Francisco 49ersLance Dunbar, Dallas CowboysMatt Forte, Chicago BearsDan Herron, Indianapolis ColtsTim Hightower, New Orleans SaintsRonnie Hillman, Denver BroncosKendall Hunter, New Orleans SaintsChris Ivory, New York JetsFred Jackson, Seattle SeahawksSteven Jackson, New England PatriotsChris Johnson, Arizona CardinalsDoug Martin, Tampa Bay BuccaneersLamar Miller, Miami DolphinsAlfred Morris, Washington RedskinsBernard Pierce, Jacksonville Jaguars Chris Polk, Houston TexansBilal Powell, New York JetsBobby Rainey, Tampa Bay BuccaneersJacquizz Rodgers, Chicago BearsStevan Ridley, New York JetsJames Starks, Green Bay PackersPierre Thomas, Washington RedskinsJordan Todman, Pittsburgh SteelersRobert Turbin, Dallas Cowboys

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 648

      We should definitely keep letting our best players go. It’s the key to success!

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      Koetter and Jason L. need Jameis to keep improving or they'll both wind up on the hot seat.  Try letting Doug M. get away and see how Jameis' season goes next year.  It may not go well anyway due to the seemingly tougher schedule, but without Doug M.?  Jameis fans should be begging Doug to stay.  I'm confident he'll be here.

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement. Honestly though, I won't give too many fucks how much he gets per season as long as we're not in it for more than 2 guarenteed.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      I love Dougie, and i would pay him but not a big fan of paying him a ridiculous amount like Murray. It also depends on what the money would otherwise be used on. If Dougie wont budge on 8mill, then I do think wed be better off with Ivory + Sims and using that saved money to help get someone like Mario Williams(if available) and a corner or something. If we dont have big spending plans to bring in outside help then i guess pay martin what he wants for one more contract.

      Agree.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2000

      I think we’re getting to the point where some are over the top about how important it is to bring back Martin.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4140

      We should definitely keep letting our best players go. It's the key to success!

      Fixed it for some of other tools in this shed.

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      We should definitely keep letting our best players go. It's the key to success!

      Fixed it for some of other tools in this shed.

      Yep.  Revis, Talib, Bennett........ they have all struggled to find themselves since leaving Tampa.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1110

      Koetter and Jason L. need Jameis to keep improving or they'll both wind up on the hot seat.  Try letting Doug M. get away and see how Jameis' season goes next year.  It may not go well anyway due to the seemingly tougher schedule, but without Doug M.?  Jameis fans should be begging Doug to stay.  I'm confident he'll be here.

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement. Honestly though, I won't give too many (censored)s how much he gets per season as long as we're not in it for more than 2 guarenteed.

      IMO, Doug is that important to the offenses' (Jameis) success.  Those instinctive cut-backs, extra yardage make the difference between a sustained drive and three and out.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      Koetter and Jason L. need Jameis to keep improving or they'll both wind up on the hot seat.  Try letting Doug M. get away and see how Jameis' season goes next year.  It may not go well anyway due to the seemingly tougher schedule, but without Doug M.?  Jameis fans should be begging Doug to stay.  I'm confident he'll be here.

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement. Honestly though, I won't give too many (censored)s how much he gets per season as long as we're not in it for more than 2 guarenteed.

      IMO, Doug is that important to the offenses' (Jameis) success.  Those instinctive cut-backs, extra yardage make the difference between a sustained drive and three and out.

      My opinion watching the season was after contact effort is what separated Doug from the rest of the league in 2015.  That is what carried and sustained us imo. I don't think Doug is a super instinctive runner tbh.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 8983

      Please stop drinking the florida water.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1110

      Koetter and Jason L. need Jameis to keep improving or they'll both wind up on the hot seat.  Try letting Doug M. get away and see how Jameis' season goes next year.  It may not go well anyway due to the seemingly tougher schedule, but without Doug M.?  Jameis fans should be begging Doug to stay.  I'm confident he'll be here.

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement. Honestly though, I won't give too many (censored)s how much he gets per season as long as we're not in it for more than 2 guarenteed.

      IMO, Doug is that important to the offenses' (Jameis) success.  Those instinctive cut-backs, extra yardage make the difference between a sustained drive and three and out.

      My opinion watching the season was after contact effort is what separated Doug from the rest of the league in 2015.  That is what carried and sustained us imo. I don't think Doug is a super instinctive runner tbh.

      Agreed, yards after contact was pretty amazing.  Obvious difference between he and the vast majority of the league's RB's.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1828

      We should definitely keep letting our best players go. It's the key to success!

      no kidding. I don't get it. For a team so lacking in good players some are quick to just let the few that we have just walk away. The grass isn't always greener and replacements aren't going to be automatically just as good.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      Koetter and Jason L. need Jameis to keep improving or they'll both wind up on the hot seat.  Try letting Doug M. get away and see how Jameis' season goes next year.  It may not go well anyway due to the seemingly tougher schedule, but without Doug M.?  Jameis fans should be begging Doug to stay.  I'm confident he'll be here.

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement. Honestly though, I won't give too many (censored)s how much he gets per season as long as we're not in it for more than 2 guarenteed.

      IMO, Doug is that important to the offenses' (Jameis) success.  Those instinctive cut-backs, extra yardage make the difference between a sustained drive and three and out.

      My opinion watching the season was after contact effort is what separated Doug from the rest of the league in 2015.  That is what carried and sustained us imo. I don't think Doug is a super instinctive runner tbh.

      Agreed, yards after contact was pretty amazing.  Obvious difference between he and the vast majority of the league's RB's.

      I don't think it's smart money to pay that tho. That is so hard to sustain. Even if he genuinely wants to and works hard to maintain it. If he were a complete back it would be different.  Mashing dudes who came on blitzes, hurting people as a receiver. Making teams account for him in the passing game like teams are now going to do to Sims. Then I would say pay him 8-9 per. If he's dinged and can't run like a beast, he still does this and this to help move the chains.  I'm not paying my front line rotational back like he's a 3 down feature back.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1151

      so we are we getting the 1st and 4th year Doug, or the 2nd and 3rd year Doug?

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2697

      Just franchise Doug and see how does next year…if he sucks, bye bye

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1110

      so we are we getting the 1st and 4th year Doug, or the 2nd and 3rd year Doug?

      Depends if he gets injured.  If you don't like those odds, then what are you getting with other potential replacements, presuming they are healthy?I believe replacing Doug M. will be a hard sell to Jason L., Koetter, and jameis.  I've been wrong before.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1828

      so we are we getting the 1st and 4th year Doug, or the 2nd and 3rd year Doug?

      Gerald McCoy finished 2 of his first 4 years on IR....yet we signed him to a major long term deal

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 855

      Lamar Miller is a good back. I been a fan of his since his days at Miami and he was under used with the Dolphins the past couple seasons. Miller is the better all around RB but Martin is perhaps more physical and better in short yardage conversions. I think him and Sims are similar in what terms they have to offer. If we somehow can’t lock Martin up then settling for Miller isn’t a bad a prize either. Doesn’t mean he is the “better” option per say but probably the cheaper route.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3169

      Lamar Miller is a good back. I been a fan of his since his days at Miami and he was under used with the Dolphins the past couple seasons. Miller is the better all around RB but Martin is perhaps more physical and better in short yardage conversions. I think him and Sims are similar in what terms they have to offer. If we somehow can't lock Martin up then settling for Miller isn't a bad a prize either. Doesn't mean he is the "better" option per say but probably the cheaper route.

      I don't know this for a fact, it's simply my opinion... but if one back is a target and the other is being "settled for", I think you have them backwards.  This is in an "overall" sense of course, as in, an outside view.  So, if the Giants were looking for a RB, Miller would be the target and Martin would be settled for if Miller was no longer available.  Now, my only point on this is, (again - my opinion), the Bucs would have to pay more to sign Miller than to re-sign Martin... regardless of a hometown discount or not because Miller is more valuable - so don't be shocked if the Bucs (or any other team for that matter), don't re-sign Martin but give Miller $8M.  My reason for saying that is, while they're similar runners, Miller is younger and a better pass catcher.Personally, I think the Bucs should be very pro-active in re-signing Martin.  One thing they don't want is Miller to get a $10M deal before Martin is signed.  If he and his agent think that Miller is a lesser player, they might see Miller's deal as a starting point and not an end point.That said, I think the perfect scenario is to trade Martin and in the draft, trade up to get Elliot.  But that's a pipe dream.  We couldn't be lucky enough for that to happen.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 814

      Hypothetically, what if Ezekiel Elliott was Doug’s replacement?  Triplets part deux…

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3169

      Hypothetically, what if Ezekiel Elliott was Doug's replacement?  Triplets part deux...

      I think Elliott will go down as the best RB in NFL history, so I think it would be akin to one of the greatest things this team ever did.  I'd say the original "triplets" could play 2nd fiddle because I don't really think Aikman was really all that good.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3341

      Hypothetically, what if Ezekiel Elliott was Doug's replacement?  Triplets part deux...

      Which is why I wish the draft was before Free Agency, allowing the team more opportunity to draft BPA and use FA to fill needs.I'd be good with using a 4th rounder on Alex Collins out of Arkansas, if no RB is signed in FA.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2697

      so we are we getting the 1st and 4th year Doug, or the 2nd and 3rd year Doug?

      Gerald McCoy finished 2 of his first 4 years on IR....yet we signed him to a major long term deal

      That's because typically DTs are more valuable and durable than RBs...on average, RBs start burning out after 4 years tops...the first thing that goes is quickness...you pay him big bucks you will be screwing yourself...

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4755

      Lamar Miller is a good back. I been a fan of his since his days at Miami and he was under used with the Dolphins the past couple seasons. Miller is the better all around RB but Martin is perhaps more physical and better in short yardage conversions. I think him and Sims are similar in what terms they have to offer. If we somehow can't lock Martin up then settling for Miller isn't a bad a prize either. Doesn't mean he is the "better" option per say but probably the cheaper route.

      Correct. Miller is a dynamic runner. If Doug tries to break the bank Miller would be the next best option.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9276

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

    • Marcia

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      Post count: 5337

      so we are we getting the 1st and 4th year Doug, or the 2nd and 3rd year Doug?

      Gerald McCoy finished 2 of his first 4 years on IR....yet we signed him to a major long term deal

      Mistake.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2000

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement.

      Can't tag a player when the potential tagging team turned down the 5th year option.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2000

      Just franchise Doug and see how does next year...if he sucks, bye bye

      Can't tag him.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2000

      That said, I think the perfect scenario is to trade Martin and in the draft, trade up to get Elliot.  But that's a pipe dream.  We couldn't be lucky enough for that to happen.

      The Bucs have no rights to Martin. A trade is highly unlikely.

    • bucism1

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      Post count: 27

      If martin is asking for more than what the bucs want to pay then I would love to sign miller. I think he could really explode in this offense. Look at all dudes that leave mia just to become great players. V. Davis, S.Smith, B. Marshall etc. We are like that too with J.Lynch, W.Sapp, W.Dunn, Talib, M.Bennett. So maybe this time we can take another teams player and unleash his talents

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 10626

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement.

      Can't tag a player when the potential tagging team turned down the 5th year option.

      Source?

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2000

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement.

      Can't tag a player when the potential tagging team turned down the 5th year option.

      Source?

      Looks like I'm wrong and completely misread something somewhere. Oh well. Back to tagging Martin.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 898

      If he is that important. Tag him and look at drafting his replacement.

      Can't tag a player when the potential tagging team turned down the 5th year option.

      Source?

      I've never heard that rule.  According to this article you can still use the tag."Expect the Redskins to take the same wait-and-see approach the Tennessee Titans used with Jake Locker, the eighth overall pick in 2011. The Titans declined a 2015 fifth-year option for $14.666 million even though Locker wasn't in jeopardy of losing his starting quarterback job. If Griffin has a bounce-back year, the Redskins could still use a franchise tag on him in 2016. The non-exclusive quarterback franchise tag for 2016 preliminary projects to approximately $19.8 million with a $154 million salary cap in 2016."http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25140831/agents-take-a-guide-to-fifth-year-options-for-2012-first-round-picks

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 10626

      Tagging him is more expensive than giving him a multi year deal. The tag is going to be in the neighborhood of 10-11mil. They could sign him for a yearly salary less than that, I would hope.If they just guaranteed the first year, then you come out cheaper in the long run.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 512

      If Dougie is asking for top dollar, then I’m ready to move on.  We could resign Bobby Rainey, or draft someone. Sorry if this has been said already; I didn't read everyone's replies.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 898

      Tagging him is more expensive than giving him a multi year deal. The tag is going to be in the neighborhood of 10-11mil. They could sign him for a yearly salary less than that, I would hope.If they just guaranteed the first year, then you come out cheaper in the long run.

      We have nothing but cap space for next year.  I'd just be weary about signing a 27 year old back to some kind of 4 or 5 year deal, which is likely the amount of term he's seeking.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      Tagging him is more expensive than giving him a multi year deal. The tag is going to be in the neighborhood of 10-11mil. They could sign him for a yearly salary less than that, I would hope.If they just guaranteed the first year, then you come out cheaper in the long run.

      We have nothing but cap space for next year.  I'd just be weary about signing a 27 year old back to some kind of 4 or 5 year deal, which is likely the amount of term he's seeking.

      Agree, and what I am saying is, they can just guarantee the first year, then if/when he declines, it adios amigo. And you come out cheaper than tagging him for 10-11mil.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 898

      Tagging him is more expensive than giving him a multi year deal. The tag is going to be in the neighborhood of 10-11mil. They could sign him for a yearly salary less than that, I would hope.If they just guaranteed the first year, then you come out cheaper in the long run.

      We have nothing but cap space for next year.  I'd just be weary about signing a 27 year old back to some kind of 4 or 5 year deal, which is likely the amount of term he's seeking.

      Agree, and what I am saying is, they can just guarantee the first year, then if/when he declines, it adios amigo. And you come out cheaper than tagging him for 10-11mil.

      I find all this contract stuff crazy complicated but from my understanding Murray got 18 mil of his 40 mil contract guaranteed.  That was guaranteed the day he signed it.  I can't imagine Doug would get less guaranteed money. Realistically if we sign him to that contract he plays atleast 3 of those years, maybe look to back out in the last 2 years. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2601

      Year 1: 8 Mil GuaranteedYear 2: 6 Mil GuaranteedYear 3: 7 Mil UnguaranteedYear 4: Team Option 9 MilMartin's good for at least 2 more years. After that we know if he's part of the playoff picture.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1571

      I’m am tired of seeing us letting talent walk and creating holes only to have to use draft picks or gamble on free agents to fill them.  Its all just treading water and isn’t getting us anywhere.  We know Doug can play.  We know Doug can handle the Florida heat.  We know Doug meshes well with the existing players and coaches.  There is no need to outsmart ourselves here.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

      They haven't won shlt because the rest of the team sux. Back to your point, I don't believe you can just plug any guy in and have success.....and Chuck dances waaaay to much to be an effective inside runner. Sometimes, you just have to get the 3 yds that's there. Not dance around and lose 2. He lacks toughness, imo.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2026

      Like I’ve been saying no one in hell does Doug get more then 24 mill from me. First thing that’s gonna go is quickness he already gets run down from behind consistently imagine what happens when he loses that. I like what Doug did this year problem is he still sucks at catching the ball idc what anyone says and his pass blocking is still average to below average. So basically your paying for a two down back. Charles Sims imo has slot of talent idk why some of you guys are so down on him. He's an excellent pass blocker and he can catch like a wr. He can also run and make ppl miss like he did this year in essentially his rookie season. I don't even count the first when he was coming back from a broken ankle still unhealthy. Nah if Doug doesn't go with 24 I'd let him go have Sims as the starter and see if I can get a 2ND back.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 883

      I am also tired of watching this team let talented players leave, only to watch them kill it with another team.That said, if HE IS asking for ridiculous money, don't do it. If we do, we better front-load the hell out of the contract. We have a ton of cap space right now and we won't be going nuts in FA.If not, we could find another guy (Lamar Miller as suggested) who won't command as much. We could also draft a guy late. As we've seen, serviceable to good RBs are a dime a dozen and could be filled, on the cheap, in the mid to late rounds of the draft.I want Doug to stay as much as the next guy, but not for ridiculous money. I will not be shocked at all if the Licht lets him test the market.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4755

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

      I have to disagree. Last year I thought Dallas should have re-signed Murray because he was great behind that OL and he carried that team at times. You were saying they should dump him because with that OL they could plug anyone in there. That did not work out too well for Dallas with Darren McFadden last year. Dallas went from 12-4 to 4-12 in year 1 without DeMarco Murray.Murray in 2014:392 ATT, 1845 YD, 13 TD, 4.7YPC, 115.3 YPG McFadden in 2015:239 ATT, 1089 YD, 3 TD, 4.6YPC, 68.1YPG

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

      I have to disagree. Last year I thought Dallas should have re-signed Murray because he was great behind that OL and he carried that team at times. You were saying they should dump him because with that OL they could plug anyone in there. That did not work out too well for Dallas with Darren McFadden last year. Dallas went from 12-4 to 4-12 in year 1 without DeMarco Murray.Murray in 2014:392 ATT, 1845 YD, 13 TD, 4.7YPC, 115.3 YPG McFadden in 2015:239 ATT, 1089 YD, 3 TD, 4.6YPC, 68.1YPG

      I know I am captain obvious here but, that had everything to do with Romo being out and nothing to do with the RBs. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2000

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

      I have to disagree. Last year I thought Dallas should have re-signed Murray because he was great behind that OL and he carried that team at times. You were saying they should dump him because with that OL they could plug anyone in there. That did not work out too well for Dallas with Darren McFadden last year. Dallas went from 12-4 to 4-12 in year 1 without DeMarco Murray.Murray in 2014:392 ATT, 1845 YD, 13 TD, 4.7YPC, 115.3 YPG McFadden in 2015:239 ATT, 1089 YD, 3 TD, 4.6YPC, 68.1YPG

      There's at least a couple of variables involved. First is that the Cowboys didn't have Romo for a good portion of the year and Murray was terrible with the Eagles. Now we don't know what McFadden does with Romo (highly unlikely McFadden puts up 1800 yds but that ypc is pretty good) or what Murray would have done with the boys and without Romo. Doug has also been pretty up and down with the Bucs as well and there are variables within that equation as well. I don't think you can plug anyone in there to run the ball but there is a point in which a team is overpaying for a back.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9276

      I'm am tired of seeing us letting talent walk and creating holes only to have to use draft picks or gamble on free agents to fill them.  Its all just treading water and isn't getting us anywhere.  We know Doug can play.  We know Doug can handle the Florida heat.  We know Doug meshes well with the existing players and coaches.  There is no need to outsmart ourselves here.

      This!!Pay the man and front load it.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4755

      Murray had too many carries in 2014. But that was because he was making plays. 10 more TD’s and almost 50 Yards per game more than McFadden. I saw his drop in numbers coming and I saw Dallas was not going to be the same without him and they weren't. Obviously Romo being out was their main problem but I agree it is many variables. Each player is a variable. Your football team is like a machine and you sure hate to take out a part that is working well and replace it with another part from another machine that may not work as well in your machine.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 446

      IMO Martin is definitly worth $7-8M per year… with the cap increase and cap space it’s a no brainer… but let him test the water if he want $20M guaranteed!durability of the position and Martin's injury history should be a red flag!offer 2016 & 2017 guaranteed... or maybe 2016 guaranteed + option in 2017 for 2017 & 2018 guaranteed!

    • majbodoh

      Participant
      Post count: 111

      Doug was great in his rookie season and last season, so obviously there is a desire to get him signed to a new long term extension. However, those two in between years are concerning. He’s had injury woes. He’s struggled with weight. And in those two seasons he made nearly a yard less per carry. Which is the true Doug Martin? I think as long as he’s healthy, the true Doug Martin is the Doug Martin we saw in his rookie season and last season. He might be 27 years old, but give him a four or five year deal and ride the guy. He’s an every down back and is capable of doing everything. Compliment him with the other backs we have on the roster and we’ll be fine.As for Lamar Miller, he was certainly misused during his time in Miami. He was clearly their best back yet they continued to take carries away from him almost at random. There were games when he was tearing it up in the first half, only for them to take the ball away in the second half. There were nearly entire games when he would barely touch the ball. Then whenever they did give him the ball he had success. So if Martin's price tag comes to high, or the second and third season are too ingrained in our front office's mind, then Miller is certainly a good back to pursue. He certainly has the ability to be a top ten, maybe even a top five running back if given the workload and playing under the right circumstances. Overall, I would prefer for us to give Martin a new contract unless it gets to stupid figures (ie DeMarco Murray's contract demands with the Cowboys/Eagles). At that point I might be tempted to let Martin walk and go for other options. Then again, with our cap space and his familiarity with our offense, I would want us to try and get a deal done even then because he's shown he can carry the burden of the running game. It's a tough one. I don't want us to over a pay a back, but at the same time I don't want us to lose a player that another team will snap up.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4140

      Tagging martin will cost about $12m.Dumb idea IMO

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 86

      Haha I’m not a Dolphins fan, but I don’t think it’s smart to tie up $8 mil a year for a 27 year old running back.  Lamar Miller will be cheaper, faster, better pass catcher/ blocker, better athlete, and all around better player.  Doug is a better power running back, but for how long before he packs those pounds back on? 

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1571

      Everybody acts like Martin’s weight gain was from cakes and pies.  It wasn’t.  Dude spent too much time in the weight room.  He got thick as hell, but the extra weight slowed him down.  He said in an interview somewhere that he changed his routine to come in closer to his college weight this past year.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 746

      I'm am tired of seeing us letting talent walk and creating holes only to have to use draft picks or gamble on free agents to fill them.  Its all just treading water and isn't getting us anywhere.  We know Doug can play.  We know Doug can handle the Florida heat.  We know Doug meshes well with the existing players and coaches.  There is no need to outsmart ourselves here.

      Outside of Bennett and Revis, I can't think of anyone we've let go of in the last decade that would really haunt us later.  Of course, that says more about our talent evaluation and development over that span than anything.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 86

      I'm am tired of seeing us letting talent walk and creating holes only to have to use draft picks or gamble on free agents to fill them.  Its all just treading water and isn't getting us anywhere.  We know Doug can play.  We know Doug can handle the Florida heat.  We know Doug meshes well with the existing players and coaches.  There is no need to outsmart ourselves here.

      Outside of Bennett and Revis, I can't think of anyone we've let go of in the last decade that would really haunt us later.  Of course, that says more about our talent evaluation and development over that span than anything.

      Larry Brackins has been tearing it up on the side yard for years.  I miss that guy

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1110

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

      Plug n Play to a degree.  But I know what my eyes see watching Doug, Adrian.  Young QB's, especially need a great ground attack.  But ok, if Buc fans would like to see how Jameis and Koetter fare w/o doug,then have at it.  And by the way, Vikings, same HC and same QB last two years...7-9 without AP,  11-5 with.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Murray in 2014:392 ATT, 1845 YD, 13 TD, 4.7YPC, 115.3 YPG McFadden in 2015:239 ATT, 1089 YD, 3 TD, 4.6YPC, 68.1YPG

      so basically no drop off in the RB position?  Seems to me the drop off was from the QB position.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 86

      Depends on how much Dougie and his reps think he is worth. If its insane money, then Lamar could be an option. But I think the staff has a lot of confidence in Sims. And he will be plan B, if Dougie goes elsewhere.

      If Charles Sims is our top option at RB then we are in trouble. Great change of pace back...but not who you give 20 carries a game to.

      Don't get the HATE.  Last season he had over 100 carries and averaged close to 5 yards a carry. And over 50 receptions for 500+ yards.

      so you'd be fine with Chuck Sims as our feature back? I'd be terrified!!

      I can feel ya, but I am a believer in the plug and play RB. I don't think you need a superstar RB to succeed. Just a good O-line. Look at the Vikes for instance. Where has Adrian takin them?

      Plug n Play to a degree.  But I know what my eyes see watching Doug, Adrian.  Young QB's, especially need a great ground attack.  But ok, if Buc fans would like to see how Jameis and Koetter fare w/o doug,then have at it.  And by the way, Vikings, same HC and same QB last two years...7-9 without AP,  11-5 with.

      Doug Martin is not Adrian Peterson.Lamar Miller is a lot better than Jerrick McKinnon & Matt Asiata.I don't see where we will have a huge drop off from Doug to Miller.  If any at all.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 855

      Lamar Miller is a good back. I been a fan of his since his days at Miami and he was under used with the Dolphins the past couple seasons. Miller is the better all around RB but Martin is perhaps more physical and better in short yardage conversions. I think him and Sims are similar in what terms they have to offer. If we somehow can't lock Martin up then settling for Miller isn't a bad a prize either. Doesn't mean he is the "better" option per say but probably the cheaper route.

      I don't know this for a fact, it's simply my opinion... but if one back is a target and the other is being "settled for", I think you have them backwards.  This is in an "overall" sense of course, as in, an outside view.  So, if the Giants were looking for a RB, Miller would be the target and Martin would be settled for if Miller was no longer available.  Now, my only point on this is, (again - my opinion), the Bucs would have to pay more to sign Miller than to re-sign Martin... regardless of a hometown discount or not because Miller is more valuable - so don't be shocked if the Bucs (or any other team for that matter), don't re-sign Martin but give Miller $8M.  My reason for saying that is, while they're similar runners, Miller is younger and a better pass catcher.Personally, I think the Bucs should be very pro-active in re-signing Martin.  One thing they don't want is Miller to get a $10M deal before Martin is signed.  If he and his agent think that Miller is a lesser player, they might see Miller's deal as a starting point and not an end point.That said, I think the perfect scenario is to trade Martin and in the draft, trade up to get Elliot.  But that's a pipe dream.  We couldn't be lucky enough for that to happen.

      I think it all depends what you’re looking for so its by a team-by-team case. If I’m the Giants/Titans and I just want the better overall back I would go with Miller. Thing with Miller is that he hasn’t proven to carry the responsibility of being a work horse unlike Martin. That’s the only risk your taking with Lamar Miller and I’m not quite sure he is a workhorse type. Signing Martin though you kinda know more what you’re going to get from him the next 2-3 years in terms of production. He has maxed out his potential already where as Lamar still has time to show his potential all the way. For the Bucs though, Martin makes more sense simply because Lamar has a similar skill set that our back-up RB Charles Sims does.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 504

      Lamar Miller is only 24 years old compared to Martin who is 27.  Lamar Miller runs a 4.40 40 yard dash compared to Doug at 4.55.  He is taller and better at catching the ball.  In the last 3 years, he hasn't missed a game behind that horrible Miami Oline.  He will be cheaper than Doug and his speed will freeze linebackers and open up the seams for ASJ and Jameis.It doesn't sit well with me that Martin was 20 pounds over weight the 2 years before his "contract year".  He loses the 20 pounds and returns to his rookie self.  Whats to say he doesn't get complacent again as soon as he gets paid?  I rather go with Miller who will get less money and will be a lot hungrier than Doug Martin.  Please Titans pay Doug a crazy amount of money and take him from us!!!!

      Lamar Miller isn't in Martin's league. This thread was a waste.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1784

      Any of the top RBs in the draft worth a look? Henry may be decent value if nobody takes a RB in the first round.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3169

      That said, I think the perfect scenario is to trade Martin and in the draft, trade up to get Elliot.  But that's a pipe dream.  We couldn't be lucky enough for that to happen.

      The Bucs have no rights to Martin. A trade is highly unlikely.

      They can tag him and restrict his options.  No team is going to trade 2 firsts for him, so by tagging him, it gives the Bucs time to shop him around.  Just because you tag a player, it doesn't mean that the new team must give 2 firsts only.  You can work out any deal you want.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      First, running back is the most easily replaceable position in football.  But why let a player who’s had success in Koetter’s system leave?  You could easily.Second, the RB free agent market is always terrible.  The only two talented RBs other than Martin are Chris Ivory and Lamar Miller.  Neither may hit the market, and if they do still may not sign with the Bucs.  And they may not be fits for the system, like Demarco Murray in Philly.Third, Miller specifically has never had more than 216 carries and has been over 1000 yards once.  Martin has 1000 more yards and in his two healthy years has hit 319 and 288 carries.  Miller might be a good pickup, but he hasn't accomplished as much as Martin at this point.  Straight up I'm taking Martin 100%.  And you can easily structure Martin's deal to be frontloaded so that by year 3 he can be cut with no cap penalties.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the space.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2697

      Starting to come around to resigning Doug…similar to the McCoy deal with Buffalo or Murray with the Eagles….if he doesn’t accept that..let him walk

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3169

      First, running back is the most easily replaceable position in football.  But why let a player who's had success in Koetter's system leave?  You could easily.

      You answered that in your first sentence.

      Second, the RB free agent market is always terrible.  The only two talented RBs other than Martin are Chris Ivory and Lamar Miller.  Neither may hit the market, and if they do still may not sign with the Bucs.  And they may not be fits for the system, like Demarco Murray in Philly.

      In the NFL, there is this thing called "The Draft".  In "The Draft", there will most certainly be RB's that can be very productive in the NFL in their rookie season.  If your team has a good QB and OLine, any talented RB should be able to be just as productive as Martin was.

      Third, Miller specifically has never had more than 216 carries and has been over 1000 yards once.  Martin has 1000 more yards and in his two healthy years has hit 319 and 288 carries.

      Which should tell you that Martin is closer to breaking down and that he's already shown signs that it will happen... possibly sooner than later. 

      Miller might be a good pickup, but he hasn't accomplished as much as Martin at this point.  Straight up I'm taking Martin 100%.  And you can easily structure Martin's deal to be frontloaded so that by year 3 he can be cut with no cap penalties.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the space.

      Miller is a more versatile back.  He's a better pass catcher and blocker, younger, more durable, and would be more beneficial to this offense than Martin.  That said, I wouldn't pay him a boatload either.  My take is, if the money is even, I'm taking Miller.

    • rag1999

      Participant
      Post count: 265

      Let him walk. Miller is the man anyways. I know what I’m talking about!

    • Anonymous

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3169

      pretty objective analysis...  It's an article/blog.https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/02/15/pro-better-free-agent-rb-doug-martin-or-lamar-miller/

      Yes it is.  It also confirms my sentiment as, both are fine options, but neither are worth breaking the bank on.  If money is the same, give me Miller because he's younger, more durable, and has less wear and tear.

    • rag1999

      Participant
      Post count: 265

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2697

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

    • rag1999

      Participant
      Post count: 265

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

    • suesweat

      Participant
      Post count: 1335

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

    • suesweat

      Participant
      Post count: 1335

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      Yes would be sufficient.  You're mad as hell.  Weird.

    • suesweat

      Participant
      Post count: 1335

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      I know I'm mad as hell and made a new account named, Mozzielovesballsonchin, because of you.

      You don't say!

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      I know I'm mad as hell and made a new account named, Mozzielovesballsonchin, because of you.

      You don't say!

      In the voice of Dan Patrick.............."whiffffff"

    • suesweat

      Participant
      Post count: 1335

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      I know I'm mad as hell and made a new account named, Mozzielovesballsonchin, because of you.

      You don't say!

      In the voice of Dan Patrick.............."whiffffff"

      This calls for you to talk to yourself. Here's what you have to say to yourself:

      Hopefully you will go away after you read this.  Embarrassing.

      Not sure who in disagreement with you.  It's been established.

    • Marcia

      Participant
      Post count: 5337

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      I know I'm mad as hell and made a new account named, Mozzielovesballsonchin, because of you.

      You don't say!

      In the voice of Dan Patrick.............."whiffffff"

      This calls for you to talk to yourself. Here's what you have to say to yourself:

      Hopefully you will go away after you read this.  Embarrassing.

      Not sure who in disagreement with you.  It's been established.

      Translated.  You are little girl mad.  I get it.  You have waived a white flag.  Move on Nancy. 

    • suesweat

      Participant
      Post count: 1335

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      I know I'm mad as hell and made a new account named, Mozzielovesballsonchin, because of you.

      You don't say!

      In the voice of Dan Patrick.............."whiffffff"

      This calls for you to talk to yourself. Here's what you have to say to yourself:

      Hopefully you will go away after you read this.  Embarrassing.

      Not sure who in disagreement with you.  It's been established.

      Translated.  You are little girl mad.  I get it.  You have waived a white flag.  Move on Nancy.

      If that's your translation you have more then a few screws lose up there. Not a surprise though!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2697

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      so your dumb azz would sign both players and try to trade them?LOL...talking about running too many batches...I doubt you got any spinal fluid left...Your banning is around the corner...

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2697

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      You're such an #ss 10lbRodQuarterbackAmericasToastJones. PS: Nice sig! You could only wish I'd wasted my time writing sigs or screwing around like that for you.

      Mad bro?

      You don't have the skills to make anyone mad bro. Sorry to disappoint you but you already knew that. I just point out the facts and enjoy being flattered by you. You should stop flirting and just ask me out already. The foreplay is tiring!

      I know I'm mad as hell and made a new account named, Mozzielovesballsonchin, because of you.

      You don't say!

      In the voice of Dan Patrick.............."whiffffff"

      This calls for you to talk to yourself. Here's what you have to say to yourself:

      Hopefully you will go away after you read this.  Embarrassing.

      Not sure who in disagreement with you.  It's been established.

      Translated.  You are little girl mad.  I get it.  You have waived a white flag.  Move on Nancy.

      Americas Toasted Quarterbacks Rod on a 10lb biscuit Jones has spoken...he will rest his brain cell now...

    • suesweat

      Participant
      Post count: 1335

      Another option is to trade them both and gamble on someone new in the draft.

      Trade who?

      His answer should be good.......

      I do enjoy talking about myself in the 3rd person. The title of the thread says it all. It contains the names Martin and Miller which is simply put as 'both'. Too much masturbation causes vision issues so I fully understand why some people might have issues understanding.

      so your dumb azz would sign both players and try to trade them?LOL...talking about running too many batches...I doubt you got any spinal fluid left...Your banning is around the corner...

      I succeeded in bating you.  Of course.  Let's get a ban going........... Only you would fall for this.

      You are indeed the master baiter of the boards bro. Good job!FYI: It's BAIT not BAT. I know you put the spelling error there just so I'd point it out though. :)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2560

      At some point though, we need to stop managing our franchise like a terrible franchise if we actually want to stop being a terrible franchise.

      Seemingly simplistic statement but actually deep… and true.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 86

      It looks like the Bucs are thinking the same thing..SQ3TPB2.jpg

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      First, running back is the most easily replaceable position in football.  But why let a player who's had success in Koetter's system leave?  You could easily.

      You answered that in your first sentence.

      Second, the RB free agent market is always terrible.  The only two talented RBs other than Martin are Chris Ivory and Lamar Miller.  Neither may hit the market, and if they do still may not sign with the Bucs.  And they may not be fits for the system, like Demarco Murray in Philly.

      In the NFL, there is this thing called "The Draft".  In "The Draft", there will most certainly be RB's that can be very productive in the NFL in their rookie season.  If your team has a good QB and OLine, any talented RB should be able to be just as productive as Martin was.

      Third, Miller specifically has never had more than 216 carries and has been over 1000 yards once.  Martin has 1000 more yards and in his two healthy years has hit 319 and 288 carries.

      Which should tell you that Martin is closer to breaking down and that he's already shown signs that it will happen... possibly sooner than later. 

      Miller might be a good pickup, but he hasn't accomplished as much as Martin at this point.  Straight up I'm taking Martin 100%.  And you can easily structure Martin's deal to be frontloaded so that by year 3 he can be cut with no cap penalties.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the space.

      Miller is a more versatile back.  He's a better pass catcher and blocker, younger, more durable, and would be more beneficial to this offense than Martin.  That said, I wouldn't pay him a boatload either.  My take is, if the money is even, I'm taking Miller.

      1) Why spend a draft pick on an RB when you don't have to.  AND, very few successful RBs are found outside the first 3 rounds.  You want to spend a premium pick on an RB?  Or gamble the 5% chance that a 6th round back turns productive?2) Miller having one 1000 yard season and that few touches is not a positive thing.  3) Miller is not more versatile.  He's not a better pass blocker.  Maybe he's a better receiver - but their reception stats IDENTICAL so I don't know where you're getting that from.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3169

      First, running back is the most easily replaceable position in football.  But why let a player who's had success in Koetter's system leave?  You could easily.

      You answered that in your first sentence.

      Second, the RB free agent market is always terrible.  The only two talented RBs other than Martin are Chris Ivory and Lamar Miller.  Neither may hit the market, and if they do still may not sign with the Bucs.  And they may not be fits for the system, like Demarco Murray in Philly.

      In the NFL, there is this thing called "The Draft".  In "The Draft", there will most certainly be RB's that can be very productive in the NFL in their rookie season.  If your team has a good QB and OLine, any talented RB should be able to be just as productive as Martin was.

      Third, Miller specifically has never had more than 216 carries and has been over 1000 yards once.  Martin has 1000 more yards and in his two healthy years has hit 319 and 288 carries.

      Which should tell you that Martin is closer to breaking down and that he's already shown signs that it will happen... possibly sooner than later. 

      Miller might be a good pickup, but he hasn't accomplished as much as Martin at this point.  Straight up I'm taking Martin 100%.  And you can easily structure Martin's deal to be frontloaded so that by year 3 he can be cut with no cap penalties.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the space.

      Miller is a more versatile back.  He's a better pass catcher and blocker, younger, more durable, and would be more beneficial to this offense than Martin.  That said, I wouldn't pay him a boatload either.  My take is, if the money is even, I'm taking Miller.

      1) Why spend a draft pick on an RB when you don't have to.  AND, very few successful RBs are found outside the first 3 rounds.  You want to spend a premium pick on an RB?  Or gamble the 5% chance that a 6th round back turns productive?2) Miller having one 1000 yard season and that few touches is not a positive thing.  3) Miller is not more versatile.  He's not a better pass blocker.  Maybe he's a better receiver - but their reception stats IDENTICAL so I don't know where you're getting that from.

      1) Which is why I'm ok with taking a RB in the 3rd round.  That said, I think you're allowing pre-2007 rule changes to influence you.  Since the 2008 draft, there have been 22 RB's drafted outside the 3rd round that have amassed 1,000 rushing yards in their career... and 33 who were drafted in the first 3 rounds.  Sure, the numbers are higher for the top 3 round picked players, but there's also a lot "accumulation" numbers as well.  For example, Jonathan Stewart, McFadden, Ryan Mathews, Mendenhall, and Shonn Greene rank in the top 11 in total yards.  For the record... so does 1 year specialist DeMarco Murray.  Martin is #12.  Knowshon Moreno, C.J. Spliier, Mark Ingram, Eddie Lacy, Felix Jones, Stevan Ridley, Donald Brown, and LeVeon Bell round out the top 20.  So basically, since 2008, there's about 7 RB's that we'd consider top RB's - and that includes us calling Martin a top RB.  No, there aren't top end RB's (yet), taken in the back end of the draft, the list includes players like Devonta Freeman, Latavius Murray, Alfred Morris, Justin Forsett, Lamar Miller, Jeremy Langford, and Karlos Williams.  These are all players that have performed very well for their teams when given a chance in a good situation.2) Miller was under used.  That's their fault not his.  They played the Jags in Week 2... the Dolphins ran the ball 12 times.  Seriously?  That's a coaching problem.  In the game against the Giants, he had 9 carries for 71 yards in the first half... he finished with 12 for 89.  That's clearly a coaching problem.  By year, he's averaged 4.9, 4.0, 5.1, and 4.5 yards per carry.  Martin is 4.6, 3.6, 3.7, 4.9.3) Miller is a better pass blocker and receiver because the Dolphins made sure he was always in the game in passing situations... unlike Martin, who usually came out for Rainey, Ramsey, and Sims over the course of his career.  The fact that they have identical numbers is proof that Miller is a better pass catcher because he accumulated those numbers will being completely under used.Miller's 2 best years: 2643 total yards on 495 total touches (5.33 yards per touch), with 19 TD's.Martin's 2 best years: 3599 total yards on 689 total touches (5.22 yards per touch), with 19 TD's.Simply, they're similar players, just that Martin has more counting stats because he was being used more.  Also, Miller has been more durable.  I'm not telling you that Miller is a lot better than Martin, I'm simply saying that he's just as good.  Signing Miller would yield similar results to what Martin gave us because Miller would be used more here than he was in Miami.  Plus, because Miller has already shown he's more durable, he's younger and has less mileage on his tires.  He's more likely to be productive throughout a 4 or 5 year contract than Martin... at a lower price even.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      First, running back is the most easily replaceable position in football.  But why let a player who's had success in Koetter's system leave?  You could easily.

      You answered that in your first sentence.

      Second, the RB free agent market is always terrible.  The only two talented RBs other than Martin are Chris Ivory and Lamar Miller.  Neither may hit the market, and if they do still may not sign with the Bucs.  And they may not be fits for the system, like Demarco Murray in Philly.

      In the NFL, there is this thing called "The Draft".  In "The Draft", there will most certainly be RB's that can be very productive in the NFL in their rookie season.  If your team has a good QB and OLine, any talented RB should be able to be just as productive as Martin was.

      Third, Miller specifically has never had more than 216 carries and has been over 1000 yards once.  Martin has 1000 more yards and in his two healthy years has hit 319 and 288 carries.

      Which should tell you that Martin is closer to breaking down and that he's already shown signs that it will happen... possibly sooner than later. 

      Miller might be a good pickup, but he hasn't accomplished as much as Martin at this point.  Straight up I'm taking Martin 100%.  And you can easily structure Martin's deal to be frontloaded so that by year 3 he can be cut with no cap penalties.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the space.

      Miller is a more versatile back.  He's a better pass catcher and blocker, younger, more durable, and would be more beneficial to this offense than Martin.  That said, I wouldn't pay him a boatload either.  My take is, if the money is even, I'm taking Miller.

      1) Why spend a draft pick on an RB when you don't have to.  AND, very few successful RBs are found outside the first 3 rounds.  You want to spend a premium pick on an RB?  Or gamble the 5% chance that a 6th round back turns productive?2) Miller having one 1000 yard season and that few touches is not a positive thing.  3) Miller is not more versatile.  He's not a better pass blocker.  Maybe he's a better receiver - but their reception stats IDENTICAL so I don't know where you're getting that from.

      1) Which is why I'm ok with taking a RB in the 3rd round.

      I understand that it takes two sides to make a deal and Martin's camp might be unreasonable, but why other than that would a team like the Bucs (new coach, plenty of cap space) let a young, top-RB go only to have to use a pick?  Aside from a grossly unreasonable contract demand, you don't let young, All-Pro talent go just because you could draft a replacement, right?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3169

      First, running back is the most easily replaceable position in football.  But why let a player who's had success in Koetter's system leave?  You could easily.

      You answered that in your first sentence.

      Second, the RB free agent market is always terrible.  The only two talented RBs other than Martin are Chris Ivory and Lamar Miller.  Neither may hit the market, and if they do still may not sign with the Bucs.  And they may not be fits for the system, like Demarco Murray in Philly.

      In the NFL, there is this thing called "The Draft".  In "The Draft", there will most certainly be RB's that can be very productive in the NFL in their rookie season.  If your team has a good QB and OLine, any talented RB should be able to be just as productive as Martin was.

      Third, Miller specifically has never had more than 216 carries and has been over 1000 yards once.  Martin has 1000 more yards and in his two healthy years has hit 319 and 288 carries.

      Which should tell you that Martin is closer to breaking down and that he's already shown signs that it will happen... possibly sooner than later. 

      Miller might be a good pickup, but he hasn't accomplished as much as Martin at this point.  Straight up I'm taking Martin 100%.  And you can easily structure Martin's deal to be frontloaded so that by year 3 he can be cut with no cap penalties.  It's not like the Bucs don't have the space.

      Miller is a more versatile back.  He's a better pass catcher and blocker, younger, more durable, and would be more beneficial to this offense than Martin.  That said, I wouldn't pay him a boatload either.  My take is, if the money is even, I'm taking Miller.

      1) Why spend a draft pick on an RB when you don't have to.  AND, very few successful RBs are found outside the first 3 rounds.  You want to spend a premium pick on an RB?  Or gamble the 5% chance that a 6th round back turns productive?2) Miller having one 1000 yard season and that few touches is not a positive thing.  3) Miller is not more versatile.  He's not a better pass blocker.  Maybe he's a better receiver - but their reception stats IDENTICAL so I don't know where you're getting that from.

      1) Which is why I'm ok with taking a RB in the 3rd round.

      I understand that it takes two sides to make a deal and Martin's camp might be unreasonable, but why other than that would a team like the Bucs (new coach, plenty of cap space) let a young, top-RB go only to have to use a pick?  Aside from a grossly unreasonable contract demand, you don't let young, All-Pro talent go just because you could draft a replacement, right?

      If you have a good offensive line and a good QB, any RB you have will be productive.  Also, RB's aren't a major component of any team.  As said in other posts, Adrian Peterson hasn't helped the Vikings accomplish anything in his tenure there.  How about Jamal Charles?  How many playoff games has LeSean McCoy's teams won?  Matt Forte has only been in the playoffs 1 year.  If you have the money, you spend it on improving your OLine and DLine, which are much more valuable commodities on an NFL team.  If you have a good OLine, DLine and QB, you have a Super Bowl contender.  RB's don't really factor in on that.  Heck, just look at this past seasons Final Four teams.  Who was the best RB?  Seriously?Denver: CJ Anderson - UFA / Ronnie Hillman - 3rd rdNew England: Blount - UFA / Brandon Bolden - UFA / Dion Lewis - 5th rd / James White - 4th rdCarolina: Jonathan Stewart - 1st rd (didn't even rush for 1,000 yards). / Mike Tolbert - UFA / Cameron Artis-Payne - 5th rdSeattle: Marshawn Lynch - 1st rd (team was 3-4 in 7 games he played... 7-2 in the 9 he missed) / Thomas Rawls - UFATotal of 2 first round picks... both got hurt, neither had 1,000 yards and only 1 other RB taken by the 3rd round.  The other 8 were 4th round or later, the majority were UFA's.I've mentioned before that I'd give him $6M per year over 5 years, but I wouldn't go higher than that.  What I am willing to do is give him $18M of that in the first 2 years.  If he's ok with that, great.  If not, good luck elsewhere.  That money can be spent on OLine upgrades and a drafting a 3rd round RB.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      1) Which is why I'm ok with taking a RB in the 3rd round.  That said, I think you're allowing pre-2007 rule changes to influence you.  Since the 2008 draft, there have been 22 RB's drafted outside the 3rd round that have amassed 1,000 rushing yards in their career... and 33 who were drafted in the first 3 rounds.  Sure, the numbers are higher for the top 3 round picked players, but there's also a lot "accumulation" numbers as well.  For example, Jonathan Stewart, McFadden, Ryan Mathews, Mendenhall, and Shonn Greene rank in the top 11 in total yards.  For the record... so does 1 year specialist DeMarco Murray.  Martin is #12.  Knowshon Moreno, C.J. Spliier, Mark Ingram, Eddie Lacy, Felix Jones, Stevan Ridley, Donald Brown, and LeVeon Bell round out the top 20.  So basically, since 2008, there's about 7 RB's that we'd consider top RB's - and that includes us calling Martin a top RB.  No, there aren't top end RB's (yet), taken in the back end of the draft, the list includes players like Devonta Freeman, Latavius Murray, Alfred Morris, Justin Forsett, Lamar Miller, Jeremy Langford, and Karlos Williams.  These are all players that have performed very well for their teams when given a chance in a good situation.2) Miller was under used.  That's their fault not his.  They played the Jags in Week 2... the Dolphins ran the ball 12 times.  Seriously?  That's a coaching problem.  In the game against the Giants, he had 9 carries for 71 yards in the first half... he finished with 12 for 89.  That's clearly a coaching problem.  By year, he's averaged 4.9, 4.0, 5.1, and 4.5 yards per carry.  Martin is 4.6, 3.6, 3.7, 4.9.3) Miller is a better pass blocker and receiver because the Dolphins made sure he was always in the game in passing situations... unlike Martin, who usually came out for Rainey, Ramsey, and Sims over the course of his career.  The fact that they have identical numbers is proof that Miller is a better pass catcher because he accumulated those numbers will being completely under used.Miller's 2 best years: 2643 total yards on 495 total touches (5.33 yards per touch), with 19 TD's.Martin's 2 best years: 3599 total yards on 689 total touches (5.22 yards per touch), with 19 TD's.Simply, they're similar players, just that Martin has more counting stats because he was being used more.  Also, Miller has been more durable.  I'm not telling you that Miller is a lot better than Martin, I'm simply saying that he's just as good.  Signing Miller would yield similar results to what Martin gave us because Miller would be used more here than he was in Miami.  Plus, because Miller has already shown he's more durable, he's younger and has less mileage on his tires.  He's more likely to be productive throughout a 4 or 5 year contract than Martin... at a lower price even.

      1) I really don't want to spend a 3rd round pick on RB.  The Bucs have the cap space and will get a better return on Martin than any free agent they sign with that extra money.  Not to mention, you're going to have to sign some free agent RBs just because you can't guarantee an RB will be there at any of your picks.  The alternative is overreaching.I understand the point you're making about RBs.  But I take the opposite conclusion, I think that points to WHY you keep Martin.  And the issue with late round picks is that there are FAR more late round picks at RB than early picks.  The Bucs have drafted 5 late round RBs since 2007 and not one has been productive at all.  The closest is Mike James.Using 2011 as a case study (because it's far enough in the past),  22 backs were taken after the 3rd round.  The best of those are Roy Helu, Bilal Powell, and Dion Lewis.  All of those backs took time to produce (Lewis really long) and are nothing but role players.  But if we assume this is very roughly accurate, you'd expect any back you drafted after the 3rd to have a 1/7 chance of being at least a role player.  Just look at the draft history by the RB position: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=RB&type=position  You're likely to bust at the position even with a premium pick.  Again, why (a) spend the pick so you can't draft another position and (b) risk drafting a bust to just save a FEW MILLION.2) You're ASSUMING that Miller being underused is a coaching problem.  I think there was some truth to that in 2015 but not over his entire career.  An alternative explanation is that Miller's coaches don't believe that he can hold up with a lot of carries.  We don't know what one is true and we're having to make an assumption one way or the other.And Miller's career average is 4.6 and Martin's is 4.4.  You absolutely expect a back with fewer carries to have a higher average because of the situations when they're getting the ball (Charles Sims averaged 4.9).  On top of which, a home run back like Miller will usually have a higher average because they're more boom/bust and bust run plays lead to passes not more throws.3) Miller's and Martin's reception stats are identical across the BOARD.  Targest, Receptions, Avg, TDs, etc. etc. etc. are all identical.  As receiving backs, they're getting the same number of opportunities. The Dolphins use their backs in pass protection a LOT.  Maybe more than the entire NFL.  Daniel Thomas for example was also in pass protection a lot when he was there. Further, pass protection has been a problem for Miller earlier in his career.  Maybe he's really turned it around but there's no way you can say with any certainty he's better than Martin.  The reasons that Martin is often not the 3rd down back and Miller is aren't the same.  And you can't say Miller is more durable.  He has been more durable on far fewer touches.  It's much easier to be durable when you're not accumulating that many touches.  He averaged 10.4 touches/game to Martin's 17.7.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3169

      1) Which is why I'm ok with taking a RB in the 3rd round.  That said, I think you're allowing pre-2007 rule changes to influence you.  Since the 2008 draft, there have been 22 RB's drafted outside the 3rd round that have amassed 1,000 rushing yards in their career... and 33 who were drafted in the first 3 rounds.  Sure, the numbers are higher for the top 3 round picked players, but there's also a lot "accumulation" numbers as well.  For example, Jonathan Stewart, McFadden, Ryan Mathews, Mendenhall, and Shonn Greene rank in the top 11 in total yards.  For the record... so does 1 year specialist DeMarco Murray.  Martin is #12.  Knowshon Moreno, C.J. Spliier, Mark Ingram, Eddie Lacy, Felix Jones, Stevan Ridley, Donald Brown, and LeVeon Bell round out the top 20.  So basically, since 2008, there's about 7 RB's that we'd consider top RB's - and that includes us calling Martin a top RB.  No, there aren't top end RB's (yet), taken in the back end of the draft, the list includes players like Devonta Freeman, Latavius Murray, Alfred Morris, Justin Forsett, Lamar Miller, Jeremy Langford, and Karlos Williams.  These are all players that have performed very well for their teams when given a chance in a good situation.2) Miller was under used.  That's their fault not his.  They played the Jags in Week 2... the Dolphins ran the ball 12 times.  Seriously?  That's a coaching problem.  In the game against the Giants, he had 9 carries for 71 yards in the first half... he finished with 12 for 89.  That's clearly a coaching problem.  By year, he's averaged 4.9, 4.0, 5.1, and 4.5 yards per carry.  Martin is 4.6, 3.6, 3.7, 4.9.3) Miller is a better pass blocker and receiver because the Dolphins made sure he was always in the game in passing situations... unlike Martin, who usually came out for Rainey, Ramsey, and Sims over the course of his career.  The fact that they have identical numbers is proof that Miller is a better pass catcher because he accumulated those numbers will being completely under used.Miller's 2 best years: 2643 total yards on 495 total touches (5.33 yards per touch), with 19 TD's.Martin's 2 best years: 3599 total yards on 689 total touches (5.22 yards per touch), with 19 TD's.Simply, they're similar players, just that Martin has more counting stats because he was being used more.  Also, Miller has been more durable.  I'm not telling you that Miller is a lot better than Martin, I'm simply saying that he's just as good.  Signing Miller would yield similar results to what Martin gave us because Miller would be used more here than he was in Miami.  Plus, because Miller has already shown he's more durable, he's younger and has less mileage on his tires.  He's more likely to be productive throughout a 4 or 5 year contract than Martin... at a lower price even.

      1) I really don't want to spend a 3rd round pick on RB.  The Bucs have the cap space and will get a better return on Martin than any free agent they sign with that extra money.  Not to mention, you're going to have to sign some free agent RBs just because you can't guarantee an RB will be there at any of your picks.  The alternative is overreaching.I understand the point you're making about RBs.  But I take the opposite conclusion, I think that points to WHY you keep Martin.  And the issue with late round picks is that there are FAR more late round picks at RB than early picks.  The Bucs have drafted 5 late round RBs since 2007 and not one has been productive at all.  The closest is Mike James.Using 2011 as a case study (because it's far enough in the past),  22 backs were taken after the 3rd round.  The best of those are Roy Helu, Bilal Powell, and Dion Lewis.  All of those backs took time to produce (Lewis really long) and are nothing but role players.  But if we assume this is very roughly accurate, you'd expect any back you drafted after the 3rd to have a 1/7 chance of being at least a role player.  Just look at the draft history by the RB position: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?position=RB&type=position  You're likely to bust at the position even with a premium pick.  Again, why (a) spend the pick so you can't draft another position and (b) risk drafting a bust to just save a FEW MILLION.2) You're ASSUMING that Miller being underused is a coaching problem.  I think there was some truth to that in 2015 but not over his entire career.  An alternative explanation is that Miller's coaches don't believe that he can hold up with a lot of carries.  We don't know what one is true and we're having to make an assumption one way or the other.And Miller's career average is 4.6 and Martin's is 4.4.  You absolutely expect a back with fewer carries to have a higher average because of the situations when they're getting the ball (Charles Sims averaged 4.9).  On top of which, a home run back like Miller will usually have a higher average because they're more boom/bust and bust run plays lead to passes not more throws.3) Miller's and Martin's reception stats are identical across the BOARD.  Targest, Receptions, Avg, TDs, etc. etc. etc. are all identical.  As receiving backs, they're getting the same number of opportunities. The Dolphins use their backs in pass protection a LOT.  Maybe more than the entire NFL.  Daniel Thomas for example was also in pass protection a lot when he was there. Further, pass protection has been a problem for Miller earlier in his career.  Maybe he's really turned it around but there's no way you can say with any certainty he's better than Martin.  The reasons that Martin is often not the 3rd down back and Miller is aren't the same.  And you can't say Miller is more durable.  He has been more durable on far fewer touches.  It's much easier to be durable when you're not accumulating that many touches.  He averaged 10.4 touches/game to Martin's 17.7.

      I don't know what backs will be available when I pick, no, but that's why I said that I would just sign Miller and be done with it.  Though, if I were going into the draft without a definitive RB, I'd make darn sure I leave the draft with one.To the Bucs past history on RB's, I won't debate that because I agree with you.  Though, it's all about talent evaluation and supporting cast.  Mark Dominik is quite possibly the GM in NFL history, so the fact that he couldn't find talent if it smacked him the face, isn't a standard I go by.  One thing I know is that if I have a good offensive line and a legit QB, I will have a productive RB or backfield - whether it's one lead guy or situation guys.  You virtually never see a terrible backfield on a team with a good QB and OLine.  That's why I'm confident I can find and RB to be productive.To note, it's not a "few" million dollars... it's a LOT of millions of dollars... like 30 of them.  Millions that can go to filling other holes of bigger importance.  The RB position have very little in the grand scheme of things.2)  Maybe the Dolphins coaching staff didn't think he could hold up... but that's the same staff that not only thought Knowshon Moreno could, but the same one that got fired during this past season.  Clearly, they're not the ones we should be using as a good judge, is it?Sure, Miller was getting less carries, but he was getting about 200 per season.  You can't say that an RB averaging 4.6 ypc is lucky over 200 carries.  What's the cutoff then for a sample size?  Though, even if that's true that Miller can't be durable for 280 carries, just increase Sims' workload.  I'm sure he can handle 150.  If he can't, then replace him with a 5th round pick. Or go sign a Stevan Ridley type guy.3)  Martin's receiveing numbers are boasted by his 2 seasons where he was healthy... and didn't stink.  In the 2 years he missed time, he still played 17 total games, 1 full season plus.  In those 17 games, he had 25 receptions for 130 yards.  Simply, that sucks.  Miller never had that awful of production.  Also, Martin's receiving numbers are staggered while Miller improved every year.  Miller is a perfectly capable back that with 250 carries (plus Sims' increased workload), will be just as productive at what should be a cheaper price.  Plus, we'll have a RB that's 3 years younger.

    • Anonymous

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      Nice back and forth guys. Some thoughts on this…- I'm a huge fan of Martin, and while I agree we shouldn't go nuts, I might overpay a little for him because I'm sick of us not cultivating our own players. I'll admit that's an emotional argument, but  it's how I feel about it. I think there's something to be said for the message not signing him sends to other players on the team.- That said, I'm generally in agreement with TBayXXXVII on running backs. I would draft them with extra picks, mid-to-late round picks, or purchase rentals. - On Lamar Miller, I think that you have to be careful of assuming that the Miami staff just blew it with him. I agree that's a tempting argument, but remember - he had 3 different OCs and none of them felt he was a bell-cow. I like the age, the light tread on tires and think he's a better receiver than Martin, but I definitely think Martin overall is a better back. Martin makes people miss more often and he's a better inside runner. - I haven't seen enough thought put into this about scheme fit. To me, Miller, while talented, does totally different things than Martin and probably plays a lot more like Sims. I think he'd probably be better suited to a spread-em-out approach than what we do in our base offense. - On the yard per carry issue, it's not "luck" it's that the more carries you get, the more big runs are offset by short-yardage carries (some of which are designed to be short). It's why Mike Pittman always had a higher YPC than the other backs. Doug is the only back with more than 230 carries to have a YPC better than 4.5 last year. Only one back (AP) had 4.5 ypc or better with more than 300 carries.- One back I find interesting is CJ Anderson. He was banged up a lot last year, but I'm not sure how suited he was to the offense.

    • Anonymous

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      - I'm a huge fan of Martin, and while I agree we shouldn't go nuts, I might overpay a little for him because I'm sick of us not cultivating our own players. I'll admit that's an emotional argument, but  it's how I feel about it. I think there's something to be said for the message not signing him sends to other players on the team.

      precisely my line of thinking.....reward your own!!

    • Anonymous

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      - I'm a huge fan of Martin, and while I agree we shouldn't go nuts, I might overpay a little for him because I'm sick of us not cultivating our own players. I'll admit that's an emotional argument, but  it's how I feel about it. I think there's something to be said for the message not signing him sends to other players on the team.

      precisely my line of thinking.....reward your own!!

      I have no issue with overpaying the guy to keep him... to a point though. There HAS to be a cut of somewhere. I really hope we keep this cat.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9276

      - I'm a huge fan of Martin, and while I agree we shouldn't go nuts, I might overpay a little for him because I'm sick of us not cultivating our own players. I'll admit that's an emotional argument, but  it's how I feel about it. I think there's something to be said for the message not signing him sends to other players on the team.

      precisely my line of thinking.....reward your own!!

      I have no issue with overpaying the guy to keep him... to a point though. There HAS to be a cut of somewhere. I really hope we keep this cat.

      of course, there has to be. But the idea of us creating another hole on the roster while sitting on tens of millions in cap space ticks me off.

    • Anonymous

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      I don't know what backs will be available when I pick, no, but that's why I said that I would just sign Miller and be done with it.  Though, if I were going into the draft without a definitive RB, I'd make darn sure I leave the draft with one.To the Bucs past history on RB's, I won't debate that because I agree with you.  Though, it's all about talent evaluation and supporting cast.  Mark Dominik is quite possibly the GM in NFL history, so the fact that he couldn't find talent if it smacked him the face, isn't a standard I go by.  One thing I know is that if I have a good offensive line and a legit QB, I will have a productive RB or backfield - whether it's one lead guy or situation guys.  You virtually never see a terrible backfield on a team with a good QB and OLine.  That's why I'm confident I can find and RB to be productive.To note, it's not a "few" million dollars... it's a LOT of millions of dollars... like 30 of them.  Millions that can go to filling other holes of bigger importance.  The RB position have very little in the grand scheme of things.2)  Maybe the Dolphins coaching staff didn't think he could hold up... but that's the same staff that not only thought Knowshon Moreno could, but the same one that got fired during this past season.  Clearly, they're not the ones we should be using as a good judge, is it?Sure, Miller was getting less carries, but he was getting about 200 per season.  You can't say that an RB averaging 4.6 ypc is lucky over 200 carries.  What's the cutoff then for a sample size?  Though, even if that's true that Miller can't be durable for 280 carries, just increase Sims' workload.  I'm sure he can handle 150.  If he can't, then replace him with a 5th round pick. Or go sign a Stevan Ridley type guy.3)  Martin's receiveing numbers are boasted by his 2 seasons where he was healthy... and didn't stink.  In the 2 years he missed time, he still played 17 total games, 1 full season plus.  In those 17 games, he had 25 receptions for 130 yards.  Simply, that sucks.  Miller never had that awful of production.  Also, Martin's receiving numbers are staggered while Miller improved every year.  Miller is a perfectly capable back that with 250 carries (plus Sims' increased workload), will be just as productive at what should be a cheaper price.  Plus, we'll have a RB that's 3 years younger.

      I won't respond to everything just because BR touched on some stuff.1) We're in total agreement that you can find an effective back much more easily with a good QB and OL.  Those positions are far more valuable and important than RB.  At the same time, an ineffective rush can hurt.  As good as the Cowboys OL was (and they took a step back in 2015) they were hurt by having Randle and then McFadden as their lead rusher.  It's difficult to prove, but I think if they had a better back they would have won at least a couple more games.The Packers have had the same issue.  They drafted Lacey explicitly because they recognised that they needed a more effective runner and unfortunately he's disappointed.  It costs them games and makes them a higher variance team because if Rodgers isn't as effective the team can't attack with the running game.I also don't want to spend the draft pick on an RB unless he's head and shoulders BPA.  This team has so many needs (C, G, T, WR, DE, DE, DT, SLB, CB, CB, S, S) that I would see filled ahead of an RB.  I under stand the argument that money could be spent on another position but teams have FAR MORE success resigning their own FAs than other teams.  I also think it sends the right message.  And I also believe that Martin could have been had for less than $8 million (which PR has suggested).Lastly, on the "millions" of dollars.  Like most NFL contracts, it would very likely be structured with almost all the guarantees in the first two years.  If Martin's play declines (and you need to sign Evans/Winston/Marpet etc.) then you can cut him with few cap ramifications.  Second, you're going to have to pay SOME free agent RB.  If you go into the draft with Sims as your RB you'll have to reach and make sure you draft one that has a chance at starting.  So let's say you sign Ivory for $4 million/year vs. Doug at $7 million/year.  You've saved $3 million ($6 million over 2 years) while significantly downgraded the position, for what?2) As BR pointed out Miller had 3 different OCs.  Ultimately, it's an assumption either way.As for carries, it's not about a cutoff.  It's that fewer carries correlate with a higher YPC.  If I have 150 carries I'll have a higher YPC than if I have 250.  That's data driven.  Of the top 10 YPC leaders (>100 carries) only 2 players were above 150 carries.  That was Martin at #7 with a 4.9 avg and Gurley at #8 with a 4.8 average.  3) The strongest criticism against Martin is his two years of injury. That is a legitimate concern.  But I also weight that against Martin playing behind one of the worst OLs in the NFL the last few years.  This has been the first year that the Bucs OL has shown signs of life - even in Martin's rookie year.  Remember Gabe Carimi, Ted Larsen, and Davin Joseph?  Never mind that the entire offence stunk - Freeman, Glennon, McCown throwing to Tiquan Underwood.  Martin is a very good back but he's not Adrian Peterson (who also had a better OL).But hey, the injury stuff is a risk.Here's a good discussion from PFF: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/02/15/pro-better-free-agent-rb-doug-martin-or-lamar-miller/Something that hasn't been brought up is the number of missed tackles that Martin forces.  Martin had 50+ missed tackles last year (and 50+ in 2012), Miller's career best is 30 something.

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