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    • Dy-nasty D

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      Post count: 268

      For a minute, forget BPA and imagine that positions of need align with talent…and take FA out of the picture…

      The Bucs appear to finally be in a position to take the next step and have one side of the ball be dominant. Do the Bucs go further in the next 2 seasons drafting heavy offense or heavy defense? Do we go farther as a dominant offensive or defensive team?

      Which gives the Bucs a better chance of making a run in 2017-2019:
      WR, OT, C (TE, RB)

      or DE, DT, S (CB)

    • leeroybuc93

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      Post count: 1385

      I say offense simply because we’ve got to get Jameis some protection and weapons. It’s great to have a good defense but I think that can be schemed to a degree. If Jameis fails, everything fails. We need to be looking to set him up with career partners. We have good young pieces on defense. One more rusher and they might be over the top without any more heavy investment.

    • DEBUCSOWN

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      Post count: 2912

      Both. First 4 rounds (any order) OL/DL/WR/S depending who is available when they pick.

    • PassThePigSkin

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      Post count: 438

      The offense hasn’t played well at all this year due to the talent available. Go heavy offense WR and Oline. I am not a fan of Doug Martin I believe his vision is horrible. The run game would have been saved by Rodgers if they would let him start an average RB with good vision.

    • RogerGoodellSucks

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      Post count: 343

      They need to build the offense more around Jameis. The WR’s outside of Evans are pathetic, and that needs to be addressed ASAP. Bring in a guy from FA like Robert Woods, who would be a very good WR3 and at least a respectable WR2 if needed. Draft another WR in 1st or 2nd round, who would hopefully step in immediately as the WR2, but if not could be behind Woods or another FA for a year.

      There should be at least 2 upgrades made to the o-line. I love Hawley and his attitude, but his play just doesn’t cut it. He’s too small and gets blown up too much. Bring in a legit C. Other than Ali, the rest of the line is pretty up and down and I think we need to bring in another OT. Not sure there are many OT’s worth drafting in the 1st round this year, so ideally we would grab a WR in round 1, and then go OT in round 2. If we can’t find a good C through FA or the mid rounds of the draft, I’m fine with Hawley as a stop gap, but he’ll need to be replaced the following year.

      On defense, I think we’re in pretty good shape overall. Safety is probably the most obvious concern, and I think we could find a decent safety in FA. We could use another CB for when Grimes retires too, but can wait a year on that if needed. I always think we should be addressing the d-line as the games are won in the trenches, so if a good pass rusher is available in FA or when we pick, we need to draft them.

    • SoCoBucsFan

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      Post count: 37

      DEFENSE…DEFENSE…DEFENSE…

      AAAAAAAAAANNNNNDDDDD

      OFFENSIVE LINE.
      <p style=”text-align: left;”>Focus on OL. A great OL can do wonders. We saw what that looks like on Sunday, on the other side of the field. You can run the ball efficiently and have a stranglehold on T.O.P. Giving your defense to rest. Plus it’ll give your QB time to find a receiver and get the throw off.</p>
      A Great defense can make life easier for an offense. They could get off the field quicker and so much more.

    • GottaJaboo

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      Post count: 5941

      If Cory Davis is available like he has been mocked, it would be tough to pass up on him. BPA around three positions in my opinion. OL, S and WR and I wouldn’t be upset of we hyper scouted the OL position and drafted three Olinmen. We have to get Jameis better protection, quickly.

      GoldsonAges on 2nd round pick, Safety, Justin Evans, out of Texas A&M – “coaching can’t fix this”.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6698

      Go trenches… offense and defense.

    • acacius

      Participant
      Post count: 492

      All other things being equal, offense in the short run.  Particularly offensive line.  In the longer run, I’d prefer to keep things at least somewhat balanced.

      But if all other things are *not* equal, I’m a-ok with more defensive linemen.  And while I have a hard time seeing it making sense in rd 1, a safety in rd 2 or 3 wouldn’t exactly have me throwing my remote at the tv.

    • NotDeadYet

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      Post count: 1297

      Anytime a stud lineman is there, take them. Offense or Defense.

    • dexmonkey

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      Post count: 1944

      offense

      i was on the defense bandwagon and then i thought about it. this team will go as far as Jameis can take us. if he keeps gettin jacked up and rushed and doesnt have anyone to throw to then why do we even have him? build around him in rounds 1-3 and then go DL depth

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3278

      Polian tarnished Manning’s career by constantly drafting skill guys with 1st round picks. 3 RBs, TE, 2 WRs. Winston is that rare QB who can make no names look good, but he can’t do it from his back. Get him linemen.

    • SoCoBucsFan

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      Post count: 37

      Polian tarnished Manning’s career by constantly drafting skill guys with 1st round picks. 3 RBs, TE, 2 WRs. Winston is that rare QB who can make no names look good, but he can’t do it from his back. Get him linemen.

      Exactly my point. Linemen are the most important part on both sides of the ball after QB. Funny thing is that the same thing is happening to Luck. Maybe it’s just me but most teams with Hall of Fame caliber  franchise QBs usually doesn’t have the greatest offensive line. I think it’s this belief that these QBs can make anybody look good, including the line.

      Imagine Brady, Brees, Rodgers, E. & P. Manning with Dallas OL. Now that’s a scary thought especially if they could find a serviceable back to run behind that line.

      i think most of the money a team spends on should be:

      OFFENSIVELY

      five stud OL, one franchise QB, one Stud RB, one stud WR, one stud TE

      DEFENSIVELY

      four stud DL, five stud DBs

      the most important being QB and OL/DL

    • kingjsun73

      Participant
      Post count: 11

      I say draft defense.With this being an offense driven league the more weapons to take the ball away and beat up other teams the better.Look at from a boxing standpoint,hit the body the hands  will fall.Pressure on the QB bogs down a running game also.So attack the offense as much as possible.You can always pick up spare parts on offense like The Patriots and win.Just ask Tom Brady.Of course the draft is a crap shoot.Still for the purpose of this question I say draft the defense.During the win streak what was happening…pressure from the front 4 which in turn caused turnovers.Defense wins championships.

    • dexmonkey

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      Post count: 1944

      I say draft defense.With this being an offense driven league the more weapons to take the ball away and beat up other teams the better.Look at from a boxing standpoint,hit the body the hands will fall.Pressure on the QB bogs down a running game also.So attack the offense as much as possible.You can always pick up spare parts on offense like The Patriots and win.Just ask Tom Brady.Of course the draft is a crap shoot.Still for the purpose of this question I say draft the defense.During the win streak what was happening…pressure from the front 4 which in turn caused turnovers.Defense wins championships.

      While thats true look at what happened to our offense. Winston got beat up and didnt have time to make the throws needed to win the game. as good as Winston is once he gets flustered from taking hits his mechanics and accuracy suffer. when he gets protection he can be surgical. once he starts getting jittery he has issues making throws that he should make easily

      we need to protect him with a better line which will in turn enhance the running game, which in turn enhances the passing game. imagine if we had a burner deep threat to loosen up the safeties to go with Evans and Brate

       

      • kingjsun73

        Participant
        Post count: 11

        Dexmonkey, I get your point as well.I think watching what our defense did to some decent teams was nice to watch.It has been a long time since our defense was feared.That is with playing a revolving door on the d-line and secondary.I think if we continue to build the defense up we can beat a fierce defense.My thing with running game has been injuries on the o-line and it has also affected the offense as a whole.However I trust Jason and his guys with draft well and add maybe some good players on both sides of the ball.Regardless I have been pleased with the job they have done so far.

    • GoldsonAges

      Participant
      Post count: 2971

      I would specifically target OL, DL, WR and S early on looking for an impact player.

      I would also not rule out RB in rounds 3 and up. Sims cant carry the load and Martin and Rodgers have both proven they cant handle the physicality of being every down backs.

      Look for an impact player such as David Johnson or CJ Prosise. Both were 3rd round backs and this is what we need at the RB position. We need an electric playmaker in the backfield

      GottaJaboo wrote:
      (Justin) Evans will be far superior to (Budda) Baker in the pros.

      Dan Skipper Sucks! (lost bet)
      Update – UDFA Dan Skipper has been signed by the Dallas Cowboys

    • Jr.3

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      Post count: 441

      D-line or O-line unless Corey Davis falls to us then you take him without thinking twice , I think he’s gonna be the next Randy Moss.

    • Michael

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      Post count: 113

      Pro argument to go defense. Jameis is 11-1 when Tampa has allowed 20 or less points.

      Pro argument for offense. Outside of Jameis, we only have Marpet, Evans and Humphries/Brate as talent. The rest is underachieving and average at best.

    • Michael

      Participant
      Post count: 113

      Exactly my point. Linemen are the most important part on both sides of the ball after QB. Funny thing is that the same thing is happening to Luck. Maybe it’s just me but most teams with Hall of Fame caliber franchise QBs usually doesn’t have the greatest offensive line. I think it’s this belief that these QBs can make anybody look good, including the line. Imagine Brady, Brees, Rodgers, E. & P. Manning with Dallas OL. Now that’s a scary thought especially if they could find a serviceable back to run behind that line. i think most of the money a team spends on should be: OFFENSIVELY five stud OL, one franchise QB, one Stud RB, one stud WR, one stud TE DEFENSIVELY four stud DL, five stud DBs the most important being QB and OL/DL

      Too many studs ruin your salary cap :)

      Yeah, QB, then the trenches. Still, skill positions are important. Look at Rodgers last year, he was average with average talent around

    • SoCoBucsFan

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      Post count: 37

      Exactly my point. Linemen are the most important part on both sides of the ball after QB. Funny thing is that the same thing is happening to Luck. Maybe it’s just me but most teams with Hall of Fame caliber franchise QBs usually doesn’t have the greatest offensive line. I think it’s this belief that these QBs can make anybody look good, including the line. Imagine Brady, Brees, Rodgers, E. & P. Manning with Dallas OL. Now that’s a scary thought especially if they could find a serviceable back to run behind that line. i think most of the money a team spends on should be: OFFENSIVELY five stud OL, one franchise QB, one Stud RB, one stud WR, one stud TE DEFENSIVELY four stud DL, five stud DBs the most important being QB and OL/DL

      Too many studs ruin your salary cap 🙂 Yeah, QB, then the trenches. Still, skill positions are important. Look at Rodgers last year, he was average with average talent around

      Yeah it does but let’s not forget that the good teams aren’t usually well under the cap every year. That’s just my dream breakdown of what matters. luckily drafting well and developing players can help the cap problem. Skill positions are important. All positions matters, just some more than others.

    • BucFanFromATL

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      Post count: 958

      Always BPA. But if we are going to just push that aside for the sake of discussion. I would say in no particular order the main areas I think should be addressed is OL, DL, WR, and DB. I would like for us to address O-Line with a proven veteran to come in and solidify us similar to how Mack has done for Atlanta. Get young talent at WR, DL, and DB to put with the up and comers we already have.

    • DonkeyHunter

      Spectator
      Post count: 13924

      I would trade back as much as possible and draft nothing but O-Line and D-Line. Although, I’m starting to warm up to the possibility of taking Corey Davis.

    • meekerbeastman

      Participant
      Post count: 57

      i would love to get another dominant DT to play beside mccoy. It allows us to have medicore DE’s as the middle will get blown up every time. also allows us to rush 4 and let the medicore to bad safetys play safer.

    • Havok904

      Participant
      Post count: 13021

      NT, Tackle, Center, WR2, Free Safety, Or DE in the first 4 rounds

      A good RB can be found later.

    • Havok904

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      Post count: 13021

      Always BPA. But if we are going to just push that aside for the sake of discussion. I would say in no particular order the main areas I think should be addressed is OL, DL, WR, and DB. I would like for us to address O-Line with a proven veteran to come in and solidify us similar to how Mack has done for Atlanta. Get young talent at WR, DL, and DB to put with the up and comers we already have.

      A quick question, do you mean the BPA for a position in need or just the BPA period?

    • flyinbuc

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      Post count: 11

      Stud large DT to help GMC and clog the middle. Face it we need to be able to stop the run by Dallas.

      OT as Jameis needs protectction and RB’s need some holes.

      Safety to Thump the run and cover a TE

    • Detrimental

      Participant
      Post count: 1599

      Both. This draft class is rich on defense though so I’d say spend most of the picks on that side. Fix the offense in free agency, there’s really not that much we have left to fix. A couple receivers and 1 new starter (preferably a tackle)on the OL would do wonders. Have the off-season to make position changes amongst the OL once Sweezy finally gets in football shape.

      DT first round, DB second round, WR third

    • Swillyboy15

      Participant
      Post count: 869

      I’d like to see if D. Smith can play RT. He couldn’t be any worse than he is at LT. If that’s possible you’ll need a LT and C for sure. Possibly a LG also, but Pamphile is serviceable, you can’t replace 4 starters in one offseason.

      My general opinion is get your franchise QB (we have that).

      Then build both lines until they’re dominant. (We’ve kinda… sorta started that process).

      Imagine an OL like Dallas and a DL like the Rams, Broncos, or the Seahawks of years past.

      Jameis will handle the rest with any skill poistion guys as long as he’s protected and the defensive line is hitting the opposing QB and dominating.

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3278

      Really like these OTs. I have Cam Robinson graded as a top 5 pick and I see mocks with him in the 20s. Ryan Ramczyk isn’t far behind but he’s playing injured and will have hip surgery after his bowl game. Probably going back to school because of it.

    • BucFanFromATL

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      Post count: 958

      Always BPA. But if we are going to just push that aside for the sake of discussion. I would say in no particular order the main areas I think should be addressed is OL, DL, WR, and DB. I would like for us to address O-Line with a proven veteran to come in and solidify us similar to how Mack has done for Atlanta. Get young talent at WR, DL, and DB to put with the up and comers we already have.

      A quick question, do you mean the BPA for a position in need or just the BPA period?

      BPA. I will go ahead and eliminate QB,K, and P though. All other positions I have no qualms.

    • acacius

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      Post count: 492

      How strictly do you define “BPA” though?  To my way of thinking, it always bears keeping in mind that the scouting process is a long way from an exact science.

      For example, imagine a hypothetical scouting system where you grade players on a numeric scale from 0-100.  If I have two players, one of whom I’ve graded an 87 and the other at 88, I’m perfectly ok with the idea of taking the former if he’s a better fit for the team than the 88.  After all, those grades are close enough that I wouldn’t really have much confidence that the latter was *actually* the better prospect.

      On the other hand, if it’s an 87 player vs a 95, I take the latter, fit be damned.

      Same basic idea as a tier system, just without strictly defining the tiers.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      I fully agree with Acacius.  BPA is a very inaccurate way of describing how to draft effectively.

      <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>You draft for need within the highest tier.</span>  In some cases, that highest “tier” might be a position you already have stocked and that’s ok.  But there are cases where that “backfires” because you can overdraft at some positions and lose talent/development because of a crowded roster. That’s how the Browns lost Taylor Gabriel and why the Jets won’t be able to keep Wilkerson, Richardson, Williams.

      Drafting well is about using your resources efficiently.  That is why Aguayo was a horrible pick, I think Ezekiel Elliott was a bad pick.

      I also would not touch RB early.  I don’t like the Ezekiel pick – it was a bad use of resources.   Martin is an above average back playing behind a very bad run-blocking line that is 31st in both power runs and being stuffed per FO.

      I also don’t want to touch WR unless the talent difference is sizable.  The marginal benefit to another very talented WR is much smaller than at other positions.  There is only one ball to go around, and while the Bucs need to upgrade the WR2 position I’d prefer that done later.

      I’d prefer the Bucs to draft heavily in the trenches.  There’s a lack of investment and while the DL is playing above it’s head right now, there’s a lack of talent.  And the OL is bad, with only Marpet being a player to build around.

      S is also a position of need, and we’ve seen what a minor improvement in safety play has done to the rest of the defence.

      For sustained success though, the OL/DL is where the Bucs should be allocating most of their draft capital.

       

    • BucFanFromATL

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      Post count: 958

      How strictly do you define “BPA” though? To my way of thinking, it always bears keeping in mind that the scouting process is a long way from an exact science. For example, imagine a hypothetical scouting system where you grade players on a numeric scale from 0-100. If I have two players, one of whom I’ve graded an 87 and the other at 88, I’m perfectly ok with the idea of taking the former if he’s a better fit for the team than the 88. After all, those grades are close enough that I wouldn’t really have much confidence that the latter was *actually* the better prospect. On the other hand, if it’s an 87 player vs a 95, I take the latter, fit be damned. Same basic idea as a tier system, just without strictly defining the tiers.

      BPA is specific to the team… the scouting department, player personnel, coaches, and GM all make a big board… I’m saying go BPA on your board at the time you draft. Period. Obviously my ranking of players is going to be different than what they come up with at One Buc Place. They have been doing a pretty good job at evaluating talent, so they need to just stick with their guns, whatever research and scouting they’ve done up to that point on all the prospects.

      That’s all I’m saying. Don’t skip to the #5 player on your list if the #3 player is still there… the #5 player could be a WR but the #3 player is a DB. WR is a more pressing need, but #3 (based on all the data your personnel dept came up with) is a better player… I say take #3 because that player was who you rated as the better player available.

    • spartan

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      Post count: 1491

      I would target the OL in rounds 1 or 2 depending on who is available. If we can shore up the OL I think we don’t need a RB. Martin might not be what he was but if we make a hole I think he can run through it OK.

      Then I would contradict Scott and go for another big receiver over speed. The reason being is that Evans and Brate have bailed Jameis out a bit to frequently for my liking over the last 2 years so I think the ability to go and get the ball is currently more important than what you do after the catch.

      Then in no particular order S, DL (DT or DE I don’t care, just stock quality players), then look for your speedy WR and/or another TE and finish off with more OL for depth.

       

       

    • XFactor

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      Post count: 893

      “I also don’t want to touch WR unless the talent difference is sizable.  The marginal benefit to another very talented WR is much smaller than at other positions.  There is only one ball to go around, and while the Bucs need to upgrade the WR2 position I’d prefer that done later.”

       

      That is all good and fine if you hit on that WR later. Make no mistake though there is a ton of room on this team at the WR spot and I do not think having a legit WR opposite Evans would have a marginal effect, it would have a huge effect.

       

    • tog

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      Post count: 3533

      “I also don’t want to touch WR unless the talent difference is sizable. The marginal benefit to another very talented WR is much smaller than at other positions. There is only one ball to go around, and while the Bucs need to upgrade the WR2 position I’d prefer that done later.” That is all good and fine if you hit on that WR later. Make no mistake though there is a ton of room on this team at the WR spot and I do not think having a legit WR opposite Evans would have a marginal effect, it would have a huge effect.

      I disagree.  In a post around a year ago I went over the stats for WR2 which showed the marginal benefit to an increase in WR production.  Without pulling that up, the benefit of a top WR2 isn’t high enough to justify the risk of a 1st round pick. You may be adding 200 yards to the team at best.  The problem with WR is there is only 1 ball to go around.  After Evans, there aren’t a huge number of targets to be split up between the WR2, WR3, TE, and RBs.

      The benefit at a greater position of need – say OL or DE or S is going to bring a much higher benefit.

      Lastly, if you look at the best teams they don’t spend repeated 1st round picks on WR.  If you look at the top 10 passing offenses (yards): NO, WAS, ATL, NE, NYG, PIT, OAK, IND, SD, ARI.  None of those teams have more than 1 WR selected in the 1st round.  This is a quick-and-dirty analysis, but a more thorough one also bears this out.  Bad teams devote a lot of resources to their WR core.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      BPA is specific to the team… the scouting department, player personnel, coaches, and GM all make a big board… I’m saying go BPA on your board at the time you draft. Period. Obviously my ranking of players is going to be different than what they come up with at One Buc Place. They have been doing a pretty good job at evaluating talent, so they need to just stick with their guns, whatever research and scouting they’ve done up to that point on all the prospects. That’s all I’m saying. Don’t skip to the #5 player on your list if the #3 player is still there… the #5 player could be a WR but the #3 player is a DB. WR is a more pressing need, but #3 (based on all the data your personnel dept came up with) is a better player… I say take #3 because that player was who you rated as the better player available.

      I don’t think good drafting teams look at it this way.  On your big board, how do you compare your #7 overall WR to your #13 overall DE?  That’s why you use some version of tiers to all you to both rank players while acknowledging the inaccuracy of scouting and inability to compare good players across position groups.

      Even right now, with the benefit of hindsight, how do you compare Elliott, Bosa, Ramsey?  Or who’s the best player of Jonathan Ogden, Jerry Rice, and Tom Brady?  You can’t make that comparison – not with any accuracy or objectivity.

      Many times I’d take the #5 player over the #3 player.  If the #3 player is an RB and the #5 player is an OL I’m taking that player 100% of the time all the time.  The actual difference between the #3 player and #5 player is almost always nonexistent in reality.  Again, in the 2016 draft order those players are Bosa and Ramsey.  If that’s how they were ranked by the Bucs, I’d have no problem with Ramsey over Bosa (or vice versa).

    • XFactor

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      Post count: 893

      “I also don’t want to touch WR unless the talent difference is sizable. The marginal benefit to another very talented WR is much smaller than at other positions. There is only one ball to go around, and while the Bucs need to upgrade the WR2 position I’d prefer that done later.” That is all good and fine if you hit on that WR later. Make no mistake though there is a ton of room on this team at the WR spot and I do not think having a legit WR opposite Evans would have a marginal effect, it would have a huge effect.

      I disagree. In a post around a year ago I went over the stats for WR2 which showed the marginal benefit to an increase in WR production. Without pulling that up, the benefit of a top WR2 isn’t high enough to justify the risk of a 1st round pick. You may be adding 200 yards to the team at best. The problem with WR is there is only 1 ball to go around. After Evans, there aren’t a huge number of targets to be split up between the WR2, WR3, TE, and RBs. The benefit at a greater position of need – say OL or DE or S is going to bring a much higher benefit. Lastly, if you look at the best teams they don’t spend repeated 1st round picks on WR. If you look at the top 10 passing offenses (yards): NO, WAS, ATL, NE, NYG, PIT, OAK, IND, SD, ARI. None of those teams have more than 1 WR selected in the 1st round. This is a quick-and-dirty analysis, but a more thorough one also bears this out. Bad teams devote a lot of resources to their WR core.

      It does not have to be a 1st rounder but we should invest in the WR position. To say having a legit number 2 WR will only have a marginal effect is kind of ridiculous. Take the Saints, Cooks 1st rounder, Mike Thomas 2nd rounder both those guys are in the top 25 in yards. Green Bay Packers – Jordy Nelson, Devante Adams and Randall Cobb all 2nd round picks. Nelson and Adams top 20 in yards. There is plenty of passes to go around, we just don’t really have a legit number 2 WR.

      I’m all for finding the next Antonio Brown in the 6th round don’t get me wrong, we just need to hit on those players though. The Kenny Bell, Kaelin Clay projects are not going to help.  Not saying we need to go WR in the first couple rounds but we better hit on that mid round guy..

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