Viewing 48 reply threads

  • Author

    Posts

    • buccaneer4ever

      Participant
      Post count: 314

      BEREA, Ohio — Browns general manager Ray Farmer said Wednesday that he doesn’t think a superstar receiver is crucial to a team’s success, which doesn’t necessarily bode well for Josh Gordon’s long-term future with the club.Gordon, who's contract is up after next season, is facing a year-long drug ban from the NFL for failing a marijuana test, according to ESPN."I would say 'how important are those guys?''' Farmer told radio partner 92.3 The Fan. "Name the last big-time receiver to win a Super Bowl. Name the last mega-guy. (Gordon) matters to me because I like the guy and I think he's a really good player, but at the end of the day, when you look at the teams that have these mega-receivers, name the last guy that won a Super Bowl?... There are none. The last guy that really helped his team get there was T.O. (Terrell Owens).'' Farmer told the station he'd be open to trading for a receiver."Why not?'' he said.  "I'm open to every avenue. We're going to unearth every guy that's available.''Farmer said he hasn't called the Texans about seven-time Pro Bowl receiver Andre Johnson, who's reportedly frustrated with the direction of the Texans' offense."He's my age,'' said Farmer. "He's 33. The question is, when do you hit the wall? You never know where the wall is until you hit it. Do you ride them all the way to the wall? Or do you give them up a year in front of the wall?''Gordon participated  organized team activities Wednesday, but ran a go-route past reporters right into the locker room and declined to talk about his looming drug suspension.He caught passes Brian Hoyer, Johnny Manziel and Tyler Thigpen during the nearly two-hour practice, and looked like his Pro Bowl self.But any day now, Gordon can receive word that he's banished from the team for an extended period of time.Suspended two games and docked four game checks for a failed test last year, Gordon is appealing, a but a league source told cleveland.com Wednesday that it's difficult to get drug suspensions reduced when there's been multiple offenses. If true, this marks at least Gordon's third violation of the NFL's substance abuse policy. Farmer acknowledged he "doesn't know if'' he can replace a Gordon, but doesn't think he has to."The reality is that you put guys in there that can play roles,'' Farmer. "If a guy is a mega-talent, you're not just going to go out on the street and find another one.  If a guy is not there, you've got to parcel it. You've got to take a guy that can take the top off, you've got to take a guy that can be a possession guy. You've got to take a guy that can play a variety of roles and then you hodgepodge it. You move guys around, you put them in different situations, you use a rotation.''

      Link: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/05/browns_ray_farmer_doesnt_think.htmlThis guy says some interesting stuff.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      He’s right.  QBs and Defense win Super Bowls.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3028

      I was interested in seeing if Gordon was that good or if he was a product of Chud’s offense.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      I agree with him to a certain extent, but 1.) Only one team wins the Super Bowl each year out of 32 teams. One team is too small of a sample size to make any consistent observations. 2.) The Super Bowl is just one game and anything can happen. If one of 15 different things happened in the first Patriots/Giants Super Bowl, Randy Moss is holding the Lombardi Trophy and the Patriots are the best team of all time. 3.) No one wins the Super Bowl without a great performance at QB, so if you don't have a QB, none of the other positions matter, so you can make the same statement about WR, OT, DE, CB, etc.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5572

      Honestly, I would say it depends on your opinion of Deion Branch and Keyshawn,

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      I was interested in seeing if Gordon was that good or if he was a product of Chud's offense.

      Gordon is a stud. It's not Chudzinski.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      It’s like Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Deion Branch weren’t a part of the last decade?

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3028

      I was interested in seeing if Gordon was that good or if he was a product of Chud's offense.

      Gordon is a stud. It's not Chudzinski.

      That's likely the case, but I was still interested in seeing what happened.  Still think the Browns were stupid for firing Chud one season in.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2673

      It's like Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Deion Branch weren't a part of the last decade?

      exactly.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      It's like Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Deion Branch weren't a part of the last decade?

      your argument is making Farmers argument. 

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      It's like Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Deion Branch weren't a part of the last decade?

      your argument is making Farmers argument.

      Two of those were Super Bowl MVPs... and all of them had 1000 yard seasons.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 152

      I agree with him to a certain extent, but 1.) Only one team wins the Super Bowl each year out of 32 teams. One team is too small of a sample size to make any consistent observations. 2.) The Super Bowl is just one game and anything can happen. If one of 15 different things happened in the first Patriots/Giants Super Bowl, Randy Moss is holding the Lombardi Trophy and the Patriots are the best team of all time. 3.) No one wins the Super Bowl without a great performance at QB, so if you don't have a QB, none of the other positions matter, so you can make the same statement about WR, OT, DE, CB, etc.

      I have the exception to your #3  :D Trent Dilfer when he played for Ravens Superbowl winning team. His stats for the game were 12-25, 153 YDS, 1 TD, 0 INT

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 119

      Brad Johnson was never known as a great QB either.  Just a journeyman.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2188

      Of course WR is far less valuable than QB. The winning formula… 1. Have a great QB. Now good luck finding one! 2. If you don't have a great QB, then you better have one of the top Defenses of all-time (See Ravens, Bucs).

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      Brad Johnson was never known as a great QB either.  Just a journeyman.

      Brad Johnson had the #3 passer rating in the NFL in 2002. If he hadn't missed three games he would have been #2 or #3 in TD passes. He may not have been a great QB over his career, but he played like one that year.

      Please wait…

    • Scholty

      Participant
      Post count: 136

      Whoever is at QB, it’s ludicrous to try and argue that losing Gordon isn’t a huge setback.  That’s like trying to say that Detroit’s offense could be just as potent without Megatron.  Right…  And I know having a stud WR or offense doesn’t make a Superbowl winner, but not having one certainly doesn’t help.As far as "name the last big-time receiver to win a Superbowl?"  Well, the question itself is open to interpretation.  A:  Name a career big-time WR who didn't necessarily have an amazing season?  B:  Name a top 5 WR that year but not necessarily someone established?  C:  Or name someone with a great season AND career?A:  Boldin 2012/13B:  Cruz 2011/12C:  Harrison 2006/07So anywhere from 2-8 years ago.  Wow, so long ago!  I really like the Patriot-esque mentality the Browns have mirrored as of late...stockpile draft picks and don't get overly attached to big name players.  But not drafting a WR was a big error IMO.  Gordon won't play a lot/all of this season, and he's a huge liability going forward.  Even if you buy into Farmer's mentality of being able to compete without a stud WR, the Browns still don't have close to the talent the Pats had with their "depleted offense" last year (Brady, Edelman, Gronk, Vereen, and Amendola).  They have Hoyer/Manziel, Cameron, Tate, and a bunch of #3/4 WRs. This is more about Farmer trying to save face for gambling on Gordon's known problems and not altering his draft gameplan when suspension news starting looming rather than him actually believing the team's success isn't dependent on Gordon being in the lineup.  Or he's delusional.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2673

      It's like Victor Cruz, Greg Jennings, Marques Colston, Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Deion Branch weren't a part of the last decade?

      your argument is making Farmers argument.

      Two of those were Super Bowl MVPs... and all of them had 1000 yard seasons.

      He knows football.

      Please wait…

    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Browns general manager Ray Farmer said .........

      * Cleveland Browns were founded in 1945 * Cleveland Browns have never won a Super bowl* The prosecution rests.

      Please wait…

    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      Define “big time” . All I know is lots of good wrs have been parts of Superbowl teams.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2775

      Browns general manager Ray Farmer said .........

      * Cleveland Browns were founded in 1945 * Cleveland Browns have never won a Super bowl* The prosecution rests.

      You'll hear about defensive prowess from the Browns fans but honestly.  I think the Browns may be further away from a Super Bowl than they ever have been.  Both the Steelers and the Ravens got better towards the end of the season last year and the Bengals won that division. 

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9128

      Define "big time" . All I know is lots of good wrs have been parts of Superbowl teams.

      Exactly. Well said.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      Farmer is an idiot. You want as many great players as possible. Name the last great WR to win a Superbowl ???  A WR cant win anything on his own. It's a team game. Everyone has a job and if one guy doesnt do his job you arent winning the Superbowl no matter who your superstar QB is. See Peyton Manning.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2967

      Translation: Browns want a receiver bad but are afraid of getting trade-raped.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 169

      Santonio Holmes…Pittsburg Steelers…right here in RayJay, I think

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2775

      Santonio Holmes...Pittsburg Steelers...right here in RayJay, I think

      Exactly, right after Larry Fitzgerald had "won" it for the Cardinals.  Really dumb statement by Farmer.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2090

      Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison?

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2673

      Farmer = Skull and Bones

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      Could this be a shot at the bucs for selecting evans over manziel, rather than at gordon?To me, it doesn't seem like he's going after the guy and the media misunderstood what farmer meant.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      Reality is WR’s aren’t all that important. He’s right. You can put great WR’s on a lot of awful teams and those teams will not only be awful their passing attacks will also still be awful – Tampa, Cleveland and Houston for example collectively got their top WR’s 4200 receiving yards and all finished in the bottom 5 of passing attacks. You can have VJax and Andre and Gordon with Jake Locker and the passing game will suck and blow. Give me Drew Brees with Lance Moore, Rod Streeter, Cecil Shorts and I can tell you that it will not even be close who has the better year.

      Please wait…

    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      It’s a passing league and wrs aren’t important ? I call Bullshlt. You may not need a Megatron , but you do need multiple guys who can play.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      It's a passing league and wrs aren't important ? I call Bullshlt. You may not need a Megatron , but you do need multiple guys who can play.

      He's talking about "big time". You need a level of competency. You saw what happened to Brady when he had literally no one who could run a route and/or catch to start the year. Past that, as long as you have a battery of guys who can do the job the QB will make them look good. I don't think the NO or GB WR's are really all that special removed from their QB.  The thing is I'd focus on having a lot of guys who could get me 800-1000 yards a lot more than worrying about, and paying, a guy who could get me 1400 yards.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 648

      Jordy Nelson is a pretty special talent. He may run the best routes in the nfl. And colston healthy is no slouch.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      Jordy Nelson is a pretty special talent. He may run the best routes in the nfl. And colston healthy is no slouch.

      They are both good....but those guys aren't hall of famers. Again, if you are talking "big time" those guys aren't it.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      Reality is WR's aren't all that important. He's right. You can put great WR's on a lot of awful teams and those teams will not only be awful their passing attacks will also still be awful - Tampa, Cleveland and Houston for example collectively got their top WR's 4200 receiving yards and all finished in the bottom 5 of passing attacks. You can have VJax and Andre and Gordon with Jake Locker and the passing game will suck and blow. Give me Drew Brees with Lance Moore, Rod Streeter, Cecil Shorts and I can tell you that it will not even be close who has the better year.

      I don't think anyone would argue that, but getting Drew Brees to be your QB is about as easy as getting Kate Upton to be your wife. I think the argument is what if you have a QB in between Brees and Locker like Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, or Jay Cutler? Will it make a big difference to pair him with a receiver substantially better than Lance Moore? Yes.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2829

      Colston isn’t far off from a Hall of Famer. Six 1000 yard seasons in 8 years, would be 8 out of 8 if it weren’t for injuries.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      Reality is WR's aren't all that important. He's right. You can put great WR's on a lot of awful teams and those teams will not only be awful their passing attacks will also still be awful - Tampa, Cleveland and Houston for example collectively got their top WR's 4200 receiving yards and all finished in the bottom 5 of passing attacks. You can have VJax and Andre and Gordon with Jake Locker and the passing game will suck and blow. Give me Drew Brees with Lance Moore, Rod Streeter, Cecil Shorts and I can tell you that it will not even be close who has the better year.

      I don't think anyone would argue that, but getting Drew Brees to be your QB is about as easy as getting Kate Upton to be your wife. I think the argument is what if you have a QB in between Brees and Locker like Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, or Jay Cutler? Will it make a big difference to pair him with a receiver substantially better than Lance Moore? Yes.

      Don't think so. Rivers had his best year last year with a guy who is a good WR but not great in Keenan Allen. Eli has just been all over the place despite having a pretty solid WR corps over his whole career, Ryan lost both of his top WR's and threw for a 4500 yards. Culter had his best year last year...but had his second worst the year before with the same WR's so that is likely more system than personnel.It should matter, it seems obvious but it really doesn't much matter in the end. Jerry Rice, as great as he was, didn't make a detectable statistical blip on the radar of Montana's career.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      Don't think so. Rivers had his best year last year with a guy who is a good WR but not great in Keenan Allen. Eli has just been all over the place despite having a pretty solid WR corps over his whole career, Ryan lost both of his top WR's and threw for a 4500 yards. Culter had his best year last year...but had his second worst the year before with the same WR's so that is likely more system than personnel.

      Receivers don't make a bad QB good but they can make a good QB a little better. Yes, Ryan still had an overall good season without Roddy and Julio, but with Roddy and Julio firing on all cylinders, he posted a 99.1 passer rating in 2012. Without them he was 89.6 last season. We don't know how good Keenan Allen will turn out to be, but he still averaged 14.7 YPR and Rivers posted a 105.5 passer rating after not being above 90 in 2012 nor 2011. Cutler just posted his highest passer rating since he played with Brandon Marshall in Denver. Eli Manning threw the pass to win his first Super Bowl because New England didn't have a prayer of covering Burress in the end zone.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2445

      Of course WR is far less valuable than QB. The winning formula... 1. Have a great QB. Now good luck finding one! 2. If you don't have a great QB, then you better have one of the top Defenses of all-time (See Ravens, Bucs).

      I wouldnt say Eli or Big Ben are great QBs, just good (Well Eli's not even good most times). both were good defenenses, not one of the top defenses of all times. The Ravens most recent SB win happened with just a solid team, with nothing that special, who just got hot at the right time. I dont think there is a formula. Just create a good enough team to get into the playoffs and maybe the stars align for you. Tier 1 QB or an insane defense definitely improves your chances but plenty have teams have won a SB without either.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3169

      Jordy Nelson is a pretty special talent. He may run the best routes in the nfl. And colston healthy is no slouch.

      They are both good....but those guys aren't hall of famers. Again, if you are talking "big time" those guys aren't it.

      If Colston has 3 more years of 70 / 1000 / 6 (and then retires), he'll finish his career with 11 seasons and be ranked - all-time - in the top 25 in receptions and TD's and top 30 in yards.  Do you know how many NFL receivers who've played 11 years or less... finished with those credentials... and NOT made the H.O.F. (who are eligible)?  The answer is 0.  In fact, do you know how many WR's who've even accomplished that over that period of time?  Again, the answer is 0.  I think with that resume, he get's into the H.O.F.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 11045

      Arizona rode Larry Fitzgerald in the playoffs to a super bowl.

      Please wait…

    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      Arizona rode Larry Fitzgerald in the playoffs to a super bowl.

      But he wasn't "bigtime" apparently.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 18

      Calvin JohnsonA.J. GreenAndre JohnsonLarry FitzgeraldTerrell OwensRandy MossChris Carter

      Please wait…

    • Scholty

      Participant
      Post count: 136

      Give me Drew Brees with Lance Moore, Rod Streeter, Cecil Shorts and I can tell you that it will not even be close who has the better year.

      Those guys are all big-time compared to the scrubs the Browns have right now.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1455

      Give me multiple options over a single “big-time option” every time, when you have that elite type option the offense tends to become more predictable. Sure they may draw doubles but their talent means more balls get forced their direction, with multiple 2nd tier options it could go anywhere and the entire D has to stay sharp all game long.

      Please wait…

    • Scholty

      Participant
      Post count: 136

      Give me multiple options over a single "big-time option" every time, when you have that elite type option the offense tends to become more predictable. Sure they may draw doubles but their talent means more balls get forced their direction, with multiple 2nd tier options it could go anywhere and the entire D has to stay sharp all game long.

      Top offenses and their playmakers last year:1.  Denver:  Thomas, Welker, Decker, Thomas, Moreno2.  Philly:  Jackson, Cooper, McCoy3:  GB:  Nelson, Cobb, Boykin, Jones, Lacy4:  NO:  Colston, Graham, Thomas, Sproles5:  SD:  Gates, Allen, Woodhead, Mathews6:  Detroit:  Megatron, Bush, Bell7:  NE:  Gronk, Vereen, Edelmen, Amendola, Ridley8:  Chicago:  Marshall, Jeffries, Forte, Bennett9:  Wash:  Garcon, Morris, Reed, Moss10:  Cincy:  Green, BernardIf you're arguing that having multiple options is better than 1 stud player, you need to have good/great options...not the ones Cleveland has.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1455

      Give me multiple options over a single "big-time option" every time, when you have that elite type option the offense tends to become more predictable. Sure they may draw doubles but their talent means more balls get forced their direction, with multiple 2nd tier options it could go anywhere and the entire D has to stay sharp all game long.

      Top offenses and their playmakers last year:1.  Denver:  Thomas, Welker, Decker, Thomas, Moreno2.  Philly:  Jackson, Cooper, McCoy3:  GB:  Nelson, Cobb, Boykin, Jones, Lacy4:  NO:  Colston, Graham, Thomas, Sproles5:  SD:  Gates, Allen, Woodhead, Mathews6:  Detroit:  Megatron, Bush, Bell7:  NE:  Gronk, Vereen, Edelmen, Amendola, Ridley8:  Chicago:  Marshall, Jeffries, Forte, Bennett9:  Wash:  Garcon, Morris, Reed, Moss10:  Cincy:  Green, BernardIf you're arguing that having multiple options is better than 1 stud player, you need to have good/great options...not the ones Cleveland has.

      No doubt you still need good options, you can't have complete scrubs but you don't need the elite/great option.Say you want to spend say $20 million in FA at wideout and you are totally revamping your team, are you better with (based on average annual cap hit of veteran wideouts)...A - Megatron, Miles Austin & Jerricho Cotchery where you know who the focus will beOr do you go get some 2nd tier guys likeB - Desean Jackson, Wes Welker & Anquan Boldin and the ball could go anywhereMegatron is without a doubt the best of the bunch by a long way but overall option B looks like a far better option to get more combined yards to me.

      Please wait…

    • Scholty

      Participant
      Post count: 136

      It’s impossible to answer that question without knowing the offensive line and backfield situation.  I think having a RB that is a productive pass-catcher is as if not more important than a supporting WR cast.  Calvin had pretty much no help last year besides Bush/Bell, and Detroit was still a top 6 offense.But if you're asking A or B with no other information....first I'd have to remove Austin because of his high injury potential.  Replace him with someone like Deandre Hopkins?  And let's not forget that Cotchery had 600+ yards and 10 tds with only 76 targets.  Extrapolate that to 100 targets and you're looking at close to 800 yards and 13 TDs.  Suddenly, the disparity between the two options starts diminishing.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1455

      It's impossible to answer that question without knowing the offensive line and backfield situation.  I think having a RB that is a productive pass-catcher is as if not more important than a supporting WR cast.  Calvin had pretty much no help last year besides Bush/Bell, and Detroit was still a top 6 offense.But if you're asking A or B with no other information....first I'd have to remove Austin because of his high injury potential.  Replace him with someone like Deandre Hopkins?  And let's not forget that Cotchery had 650+ yards and 10 tds with only 76 targets.  Extrapolate that to 100 targets and you're looking at close to 900 yards and 13 TDs.  Suddenly, the disparity between the two options starts diminishing.

      But how often has Cotchery had that type of production?if you take his normal output he's a far less attractive option.I didn't used guys like Hopkins because as rookies their pay is all out of whack because they are cheaper than market value if they're good and cap hit is determined more by draft position than production. If it were as simple as saying "I'll just draft wideouts who will be good and pay them cheap to get to my $20 million budget" then yeah, I'll take Julio Jones, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Demarius Thomas, Alshon Jeffrey & Hopkins as my wideout, come in under budget and have the best core in the league.

      Please wait…

    • Scholty

      Participant
      Post count: 136

      Cotchery has been solid when he gets targets and doesn’t have Mark Sanchez throwing to him.  He’s caught 64% of his targets and averaged 12.7 yards per catch over his career.  He’s not going to be a #1 WR by any means and is at the waning point of his career, but I think he’s still a decent #3 guy given the playing time.  There’s obviously still potential if he’s putting up 600/10 numbers with half the looks of top 10 WRs.And why can't I include Hopkins or other young guys?  This whole discussion stems from Cleveland not drafting a WR because they think they can plug in guys like Miles Austin and Nate Burleson and still get the same production/value compared to a rookie.  I'm saying you can't, and the reason teams like Detroit, Houston, Arizona, Tampa Bay, Chicago, etc make do with a big chunk of their cap being eaten up by their #1 WRs is by drafting guys like Broyles, Hopkins, Floyd, Evans, Jeffery, etc.  And not by filling up your team with veteran, injury-laden crap at the same cost and saying it's comparable.  And to make matters worse, they're adhering to that mindset WITHOUT a big-time WR if and when Gordon sits.

      Please wait…

Viewing 48 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.