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    • casren

      Post count: 300

      My last new thread for the next 4 days. I know you are all relieved. :)

      This is a thread for everyone who wants Licht fired, and replaced by an auto-draft computer who exclusively drafts FSU players.

    • casren

      Post count: 300

      Hey Nobody. I have read and respected your posts in the past. You are always thorough and smart. Honestly, doesn’t it seem strange that we need to bring in 10 starters?

    • The Anti-Java

      Post count: 7089

      What a whack job.

    • Nobody

      Post count: 6485

      So a couple of thoughts:

      1) The number of new starters that this team “needs to be legitimately competitive” I’d put at:

      2 interior OL
      1 starting RE
      2 or 3 DBs (1 S and 2 CBs)

      So 5-6. Now that isn’t 9, but that isn’t a small number either. The DB number really depends on how one feels about Ryan Smith. Can he be an average boundary CB. He progressed (from the early horror show) as the year went along so perhaps. I think VH3 is going to be a Nickel CB solely.

      And some of this depends on whether we push more towards a 3-4 as well (or Nickel package certainly is trending that way).

      I’m good with Pat Murray at PK. We got ourselves in Kicker Hell moving on from a PK that we thought was good, but not elite. I’ll take good right now.

      2) How did we get here? @Tog has done a very good post on this as it pertains to Licht.

      In my estimation, it’s basically:

      A) Artificially creates need by dumping or not resigning a few solid players.

      B) Replaced them with seriously inadequate FA acquisitions or draft picks.

      C) Rinse and repeat.

      D) 2016 happened, or perhaps, better put…it didn’t happen. We came away from the 2016 offseason positioned to have meaningfully productive assets.

      When 2016 became 2016, it set us back significantly.

    • casren

      Post count: 300

      Nobody – Thanks for writing back. A couple of clarifications

      1). Are you saying that we don’t need starters at the D-line? Are you essentially making that point based on us moving to a 3-4? If so, who are the 3 d-linemen we would start? McCoy, Ayers, and Bennett?

      2). a-d are all Licht’s fault, right? So, are you agreeing that he has done a lousy job?

    • DonkeyHunter

      Post count: 13935

      A drunk FSU honk having a meltdown on a Saturday morning. It’s definitely the off-season.

      It’s a beautiful day. Sober up. Get out and play 18. You’ll feel better.

    • casren

      Post count: 300


    • Nobody

      Post count: 6485

      A-D fall on Licht primarily (though A has to have had Lovie’s hand in it to a fair degree).

      On DL:

      1) If we’re staying predominate 4-3, then we primarily need a dominate RE. I don’t believe Spence will be that guy at this point.

      2) If we’re staying predominate 4-3, I don’t look at NT as a giant pressing need. I’m confident that McDonald will be resigned (kiss of death!). Further, we’ll be able to shore up the interior without a lot of trouble.

      3) I’m not down on Ayers like others are. His production for his salary is not bad. He is by no means a game-changing edge player, but he graded out very well last year against the run and he had reasonable pressure from both DE and DT for his salary (but yes, he missed some games).

      Gholston has a very down year, but he is a solid enough 4-3 LE and will play better this year.

      I don’t think Spence is going to be a hand-in-the-dirt Guy, but he should be able to produce pressure in 3-3-5 Nickel (much better than Beck, Glanton, Kwon did).

      So I want to see a legitimate RE, a promising rookie DT, and another stand-up edge player added this offseason (particularly if we’re looking at more 3-4 base).

      McCoy, McDonald, rookie DT with teeth, Ayers, Gholston, Spence, rookie RE, another Edge player (draft or FA) along with Beck’s ability to play Edge. Assuming 2 of those 3 new players are productive (or the RE is game-changing) and Spence can stay healthy, then you have a decent game day rotation.

    • Biggs3535

      Post count: 6698

      Mar 10, 18 at 12:26 pm #1066454

      3) I’m not down on Ayers like others are. His production for his salary is not bad. He is by no means a game-changing edge player, but he graded out very well last year against the run and he had reasonable pressure from both DE and DT for his salary (but yes, he missed some games).

      Agreed. Too many fans are on his case unnecessarily. He had a decent year. He’s a very good #2 DE. He’s just not the stud pass rusher people are unfairly expecting. Fans can’t be mad at Robert Ayers for not being Cameron Jordan. He will never be Cameron Jordan.

    • Nobody

      Post count: 6485

      Absolutely @Biggs3535 .

      Getting rid of a 6 mil/year DE who (a) can play LE and RE more than functionally (and the run well) and (b) can kick inside and get reasonable pressure in Nickel (which has the knock-on effect of letting you keep another OL or DB active) doesn’t make any sense to me. That is a lot of value for a small chunk of change.

    • tog

      Post count: 3533

      Thanks @Nobody, stopped posting because of the shit show that is the Bucs and PR (Gruden! Gruden! Gruden! GUNS!!!) so thanks for pulling me back into THIS thread. There’s a special place in hell for you…

      The fundamental problem is that this team is an organisational disaster. Layered on top of that, Licht is a bad (BAD, not mediocre) GM, and the coaching staff is mediocre. While I have very little faith the Glazers can even luck into building a successful organisation, Licht certainly cannot handle his duties competently. Suffice to say, this team is a mess with a veneer of talent (largely because of many high draft picks).

      To your point I’d agree with your teams needs. The problem is that it will be very difficult to address all those weaknesses (never mind given Licht’s limitations). The most likely scenario is that you patchwork pieces together that are functional but not playoff-competitive.

      For example, the team could end up with Chubb, Mcdonald, Grimes, EJ Gaines, Ryan Jensen (Marpet to G). On some levels this is an improvement, but not at a level that fields a team that will be competitive in the playoffs. This is further coupled with the fact that the Bucs are not a young team and have their young talent now needing to be paid further eating up cap room. As well, the deficit at edge rusher is significant enough that no rookie will have initial success. If you look at the rookie DEs who have good years in sacks, they always complement another strong, veteran edge rusher.

      On top of which, much of the talent (or somewhat talented) players are getting older. I would not expect McCoy, Ayers, Mcdonald, Grimes, and Dotson to be healthy all season and their play will be further diminished. The Bucs had the 12th oldest team in the league last year and lack the young talent to replace their aging talent.

      I don’t see a move to a 3-4 changing much (as I’ve been vocal with before). As Matt Patricia said during his press conference, almost all teams are “multiple”:

      The Bucs will sit in nickel (mostly 4-2) on the majority of snaps. On top of which, they’ve already switched to some elements of a mixed front (pseudo “3-4”) by trying to get much bigger on the DL and use smaller rushers like Spence/Beckwith. But this doesn’t particularly free up the Bucs talent nor is more available in the draft/FA in this format. No matter what they play, the Bucs need more edge rushers, defensive tackles, corners and safeties.

      The silver lining is that because of how competitive the NFL is, very few teams are TRULY far off. Hitting on a few key picks then elevates the play of other players. Calais Campbell is a perfect example, a very good (not great) DL who had his best year on the downside of his career because of the talent around him. That signing looks much superior because of all the other elite players on that defense. He would not have been that good on the Buccaneers.

      Yet the Bucs need starters at positions even beyond those Nobody has highlighted. Yes, Tier 1 is: Edge, CB, Interior OL. Tier 2 is: 2nd Edge, 2nd CB, 2nd OG, S, DT, RB. Tier 3 is: LT, S, SLB, rotational DL. There are too many holes to create an environment like the Jaguars unless the Bucs get very, very lucky (this also means Winston take a very big step forward). The reality seems to be that many of the starters are replacement-level talents (Patrick Murray, Gholston, Kwon, etc).


      The Bucs have too many holes at resource-heavy positions (particularly DE, CB) to become a team that is competitive in the playoffs this year. The team is further hamstrung because it was unable to have success when its young talent was cheap and now has to pay Evans, Winston, Marpet, etc. This will further pressure the front office to find cheap talent in free agency and the draft going forward. While all teams are competitive in the NFL and the Bucs may make the playoffs in 2018 they have too many holes to make a deep run.

    • casren

      Post count: 300

      Licht’s Battle Plan:

      Licht rule #1: Resign our own FA’s.

      Licht rule #2: Go out and get the 6 -8 best FA in position of needs. No need to go after the top-tier guys. He knows better than that. He is smarter than everyone else. He immediately goes after the guys that everyone else will only look at in week two of free agency. Sweezy, Michael Johnson, Verner, Collins, Baker, Ward, EDS. Ayers, and Gholston. He gets to them first, before those other teams can snag these finds. Light has a plan… and his plan was to compete against himself and overpay for guys that other teams weren’t going to overpay.

      Licht rule #3: Then, regarding the draft. Make sure to not ever trade down, unless you are purposely passing over a player that everyone knows is great and is a great fit in our scheme. Let those other teams… you know, the crappy teams like NE, KC, Steelers… let them be the suckers who trade down. We will absolutely only trade down when it makes no sense to do so.

      Licht Rule #4: Assume that you know better than anyone else regarding players from rounds 5-7:

      5 3(143) Kadeem Edwards, G, Tennesee State Grade
      5 9(149) Kevin Pamphile, T, Purdue Grade
      6 9(185) Robert Herron, WR, Wyoming Grade
      Round 5, Pick 18 (No. 162) Jeremy McNichols, RB, Boise State
      Round 7, Pick 5 (No. 223, from Dolphins via Rams) Stevie Tu’ikolovatu, DT, USC

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