Monday, October 21, 2019

GM Strike & Trump Tax Cut

This topic contains 63 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  jbear Sep. 20, 2019 at 1:53 pm.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 64 total)
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  • #1212462

    VirgilCaine
    Participant

    UAW workers say they want a cut of the profits.

    This is part of the reason

    “Over the last year, GM has reported that it’s received a tax cut of about $157 million from cuts to the corporate rate in the new Republican tax code. But rather than use that money to invest in hiring new workers, open new plants, or raise wages, the company has spent nearly $100 million buying back its own shares, a move that almost exclusively benefits top executives and wealthy shareholders. Now after spending $100 million enriching themselves (and paying the company’s CEO $22 million, 295 times more than the average GM employee’s salary), the company’s leadership is claiming it can’t afford to keep its American plants open.”

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    #1212465

    Anonymous

    This my friends is socialism… corporate socialism.

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    #1212483

    jbear
    Participant

    This my friends is socialism… corporate socialism.

    Yes well, maybe you’re more sympathetic now to the people who had a fit about Obama’s auto bailout.  And yes, he takes full credit for it.

    I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m just trying to point out that there are plenty of people who are completely against socialism and corporate welfare who come at it from a completely different angle that those on the left as most true fiscal conservatives are for all tax cuts as a means to help shrink the size and scope of government.  That said, calling a tax cut, corporate welfare is definitely pushing the envelope on usage in the English Language.

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    #1212545

    VirgilCaine
    Participant

    This my friends is socialism… corporate socialism.

    Yes well, maybe you’re more sympathetic now to the people who had a fit about Obama’s auto bailout. And yes, he takes full credit for it.

    You mean the same people who are not having a fit about Trumps’s tax cut?

    lmao

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    #1212571

    jbear
    Participant

    This my friends is socialism… corporate socialism.

    Yes well, maybe you’re more sympathetic now to the people who had a fit about Obama’s auto bailout. And yes, he takes full credit for it.

    You mean the same people who are not having a fit about Trumps’s tax cut?

    lmao

    Having trouble with reading again?

    most true fiscal conservatives are for all tax cuts as a means to help shrink the size and scope of government.

    So yes the same people but not for no reason as you seem to imply.

    As I said, calling a tax cut, corporate welfare is a bit of a stretch.  A tax cut is, for someone like me, an attack on big government spending.  It reduces revenues and puts pressure on government to curtail spending and hopefully, finally shrink the size of the government.

    A government bailout is not the same thing at all.  Now you’re talking about no change in tax revenues but an increase in spending as government pumps already allocated tax revenues into bailing out a company which by all logic should be subject to free market principles just like all companies.  The market is the ultimate fairness detector because the market makes decisions based on whether you’re making money or not.  It weeds out bad businesses and makes room for new and innovative businesses to take their place.  That’s a true free market.

    Additionally, what happens when government decides to pump tax revenue into failing businesses to prop them up?  It inevitably creates pressure on future taxes.  I’d like to think that it would put pressure to cut somewhere else to make up for it but it seems like that’s not what actually happens.  The pressure is now going in the opposite direction to actually increase taxes to increase revenues to cover the shortfall.  A bailout is the government getting bigger and the opposite of what a fiscal conservative would like to see happen.

     

     

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    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  jbear.
    #1212584

    VirgilCaine
    Participant

    “As I said, calling a tax cut, corporate welfare is a bit of a stretch”

    lmao. such bullshit

    ““Over the last year, GM has reported that it’s received a tax cut of about $157 million from cuts to the corporate rate in the new Republican tax code. But rather than use that money to invest in hiring new workers, open new plants, or raise wages, the company has spent nearly $100 million buying back its own shares, a move that almost exclusively benefits top executives and wealthy shareholders. Now after spending $100 million enriching themselves (and paying the company’s CEO $22 million, 295 times more than the average GM employee’s salary), the company’s leadership is claiming it can’t afford to keep its American plants open.”

    Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare

    This one is even bigger bullshit though:

    “MOST TRUE FISCAL CONSERVATIVES ARE FOR ALL TAX CUTS AS A MEANS TO HELP SHRINK THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT.”

    You shrink the size and scope of government by cutting spending. So, on that note . . .

    https://www.newsweek.com/conservatives-criticize-republican-federal-deficit-trump-spending-record-congress-debt-tax-cuts-1454024

    TRUMP, REPUBLICANS RIDICULED AS FEDERAL DEFICIT, $3.7 TRILLION SPENDING HIT RECORD HIGHS

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    #1212606

    jbear
    Participant

    “As I said, calling a tax cut, corporate welfare is a bit of a stretch”

    lmao. such bullshit

    ““Over the last year, GM has reported that it’s received a tax cut of about $157 million from cuts to the corporate rate in the new Republican tax code. But rather than use that money to invest in hiring new workers, open new plants, or raise wages, the company has spent nearly $100 million buying back its own shares, a move that almost exclusively benefits top executives and wealthy shareholders. Now after spending $100 million enriching themselves (and paying the company’s CEO $22 million, 295 times more than the average GM employee’s salary), the company’s leadership is claiming it can’t afford to keep its American plants open.”

    Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare

    This one is even bigger bullshit though:

    “MOST TRUE FISCAL CONSERVATIVES ARE FOR ALL TAX CUTS AS A MEANS TO HELP SHRINK THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT.”

    You shrink the size and scope of government by cutting spending. So, on that note . . .

    https://www.newsweek.com/conservatives-criticize-republican-federal-deficit-trump-spending-record-congress-debt-tax-cuts-1454024

    TRUMP, REPUBLICANS RIDICULED AS FEDERAL DEFICIT, $3.7 TRILLION SPENDING HIT RECORD HIGHS

    This is how I know all your talk about being a former Republican is an outright lie.  Your understanding of the concept of fiscal conservatism is way to underdeveloped for a person who seems to know something about everything to have actually voted Republican in every election until 4 years ago.  I mean, yeah if you were a dummy like a lot of voters and just had no idea what you were voting for except that some co-workers told you one side was evil, then maybe I could buy this.  But that’s not you is it?

    I mean, your grasp of fiscal conservatism is seriously perilous as evidenced by your claim that corporate tax cuts are corporate welfare.  The only tax cuts that aren’t evil are tax cuts directly for individual workers?  That seems to be what you’re saying here.

    Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare

    I’m not saying that isn’t a very valid argument for an anti capitalist, leftist to make but it sure as hell is not a valid point for any rational, fiscal conservative to make.  Free market, fiscal conservatives want taxes to go down and government to get smaller.  Also, most free market thinkers do firmly believe that cutting taxes on business and cutting regulations and red tape will make the business environment stronger which will result in higher profit margins and more capital available for reinvestment in the company.

    If you want to talk about some of the socialist stuff out there about wall street reforms regarding officer compensation or the vilification of making a profit you go right ahead.  That’s not what I’m talking about.  All I’m saying is that a tax cut is not corporate welfare, it’s tax relief from an unjust system.  The corporate tax rate was out of control and was hurting American businesses.

    People like you use anything that benefits a big, evil corporation as some sort of call to arms.  I don’t know how I can say any more clearly that this anti business, class warfare line of thinking has much more in common with Soviet Russia than it ever had with anything resembling the constitution or the principles this country was founded on.

    Here are some quotes that will piss you off.

    “There is only one kind of freedom and that’s individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it.”

    “We need to understand the more government spends, the more freedom is lost…Instead of simply debating spending levels, we ought to be debating whether the departments, agencies, and programs funded by the budget should exist at all.”

    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.”

    “Deficits mean future tax increases, pure and simple. Deficit spending should be viewed as a tax on future generations, and politicians who create deficits should be exposed as tax hikers.”

    “Our country’s founders cherished liberty, not democracy.”

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    #1212607

    jbear
    Participant

    “As I said, calling a tax cut, corporate welfare is a bit of a stretch”

    lmao. such bullshit

    ““Over the last year, GM has reported that it’s received a tax cut of about $157 million from cuts to the corporate rate in the new Republican tax code. But rather than use that money to invest in hiring new workers, open new plants, or raise wages, the company has spent nearly $100 million buying back its own shares, a move that almost exclusively benefits top executives and wealthy shareholders. Now after spending $100 million enriching themselves (and paying the company’s CEO $22 million, 295 times more than the average GM employee’s salary), the company’s leadership is claiming it can’t afford to keep its American plants open.”

    Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare

    This one is even bigger bullshit though:

    “MOST TRUE FISCAL CONSERVATIVES ARE FOR ALL TAX CUTS AS A MEANS TO HELP SHRINK THE SIZE AND SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT.”

    You shrink the size and scope of government by cutting spending. So, on that note . . .

    https://www.newsweek.com/conservatives-criticize-republican-federal-deficit-trump-spending-record-congress-debt-tax-cuts-1454024

    TRUMP, REPUBLICANS RIDICULED AS FEDERAL DEFICIT, $3.7 TRILLION SPENDING HIT RECORD HIGHS

    And last of all, I never said one thing about Trump.  You respond to almost every post I make but somehow it seems that you can’t be bothered to actually read any of them.  I am not a Trumper, I’m not a troll and I’m not some guy named Java.

    Take a break before your grandkids take your computer and phone away.

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    #1212618

    VirgilCaine
    Participant

    LMAO. Love stuff like this:

    “I mean, your grasp of fiscal conservatism is seriously perilous as evidenced by your claim that corporate tax cuts are corporate welfare. The only tax cuts that aren’t evil are tax cuts directly for individual workers? That seems to be what you’re saying here.”

    Uh . . no . . . it does not “seem” to be what I am saying, it seems to be what you made up!

    The Trump tax cut occurred during a rising economy with no corresponding cut in spending. And yet:

    “Brady, who co-authored the original tax bill, admitted that its eventual economic benefits would be “hard to know.” The Trump administration claimed when it promoted the tax bill that any additions to the deficit would be paid for by the growth the tax bill spurred.”

    🙂

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    #1212768

    jbear
    Participant
    Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare

    I call bullshit Verge.  This is what you said.  I will try not to use the word “seems” as it seems to irritate you.

    So you said that you don’t have a problem with tax cuts for the workers…. you see I do know how to read.  You said, you have a problem with the tax cut being a corporate tax cut.

    Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that.

    First part of what you said….. I don’t have a problem with giving a tax cut to the workers.   Is this a little to close to “seeming” like maybe I’m paraphrasing too hard?

     The tax cut was corporate welfare

    Second part of what you said…. This tax cut, as opposed to a tax cut for workers, was corporate welfare.  I tread lightly on my paraphrasing here.  This is what you said.

    Now you respond with this sentence.

    The Trump tax cut occurred during a rising economy with no corresponding cut in spending. And yet:

    This is all you said, followed up by a quote about how the Trump administration claimed that any additions to the deficit would be paid for by the growth the tax bill spurred.

    Now suddenly it’s about the tax cut creating a deficit.  Earlier, you didn’t have a problem with a tax cut for the workers but now it’s about the deficit…. ok.

    I am not for deficit spending.  Never have been, never will be.  I want the corresponding cuts which I already pointed out in another thread when Schiano was calling out Rand Paul for not really being a fiscal conservative that Rand Paul tried to attach corresponding cuts to the tax reform bill.  He also proposes massive spending cuts every year when the budget comes up for a vote.

    https://www.newsmax.com/politics/rand-paul-tax-cuts-spending-increase-not-serious/2018/02/11/id/842698/

    I’m pointing this out because I am very consistent on this.

    Tax cuts = ALWAYS GOOD

    Spending Cuts = ALWAYS GOOD

    Left wingers aren’t upset because the budget isn’t balanced, they’re upset because a tax cut means pressure on spending.

    Did I mention I’m calling bullshit?  You’re upset because corporations got a tax cut but would be happy if the workers got a tax cut instead and you’re upset because the budget isn’t balanced but don’t want to cut spending?

    Or maybe you have some spending cuts in mind? Maybe we can come up with a few and save the country?

     

     

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    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  jbear.
    #1212867

    VirgilCaine
    Participant

    Java, this is actually a decent troll (or you cannot actually read lol)

    CK – “Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare”

    Java – “I call bullshit Verge. This is what you said. I will try not to use the word “seems” as it seems to irritate you.”

    That wasn’t the part I put in bold. lol, but you know that. This was in bold: “The only tax cuts that aren’t evil are tax cuts directly for individual workers? That seems to be what you’re saying here.””

    Just curious though why you would bother typing all that? I guess its entertaining to troll but then claim not to troll?

    who knows?

    🙂

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    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  VirgilCaine.
    #1212872

    Anonymous

    Jbear back to his assumptive stance.

    Cutting taxes is a form of wealth redistribution. It just is…

    If I pass a law that says only people making between x and x dollars pay tax, that creates a surplus for the rest. That surplus (lack of tax) is positioned by those others paying the tax.

    So yes, corporate welfare is a redistribution of wealth. Sometimes directly like my example above but usually in the form a a deficit… the deficit then has an enormous amount of side effects that I could list for days… one of which is a higher percentage of the deficit goes toward interest. Meaning less toward other issues like military, infrastructure, entitlement, etc.

    Nothing is free. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

    All tax cuts = good… this is a very simple way to think and quite frankly dangerous. Paying taxes should be part of your patriotic duty.

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    #1212874

    Anonymous

    Plus these tax cuts seem to be, as predicted, not a driver of job growth… all they’ve done is widen the gap between the elite and the rest, which inhibiting class mobility, promotes hegemony, and shrinks the middle class.

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    #1212894

    VirgilCaine
    Participant

    Java just posting whatever he/she can to keep the convo going (lol), but just to be clear:

    “Fiscal conservatism, also referred to as conservative economics or economic conservatism, is a political-economic philosophy regarding fiscal policy and fiscal responsibility advocating low taxes, reduced government spending and minimal government debt.”

    A fiscal conservative is NOT always going to be for tax cuts because that would be “fiscally irresponsible” without some “reduced government spending” because its counter to having “minimal government debt.” The broad term fiscal conservatives included “deficit hawks,” but no one who supports cutting taxes just to cut them, other than a “supply-sider,” like Trump (if you see his quote I posted earlier suggesting that growth would take care of the deficit, which is classic supply-side.)

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    #1212895

    jbear
    Participant

    Java, this is actually a decent troll (or you cannot actually read lol)

    CK – “Look, if you want to give the tax cut to the workers, you do that. The tax cut was corporate welfare”

    Java – “I call bullshit Verge. This is what you said. I will try not to use the word “seems” as it seems to irritate you.”

    That wasn’t the part I put in bold. lol, but you know that. This was in bold: “The only tax cuts that aren’t evil are tax cuts directly for individual workers? That seems to be what you’re saying here.””

    Just curious though why you would bother typing all that? I guess its entertaining to troll but then claim not to troll?

    who knows?

     

    Java, you are and always will be the king of the trolls.  As usual you managed to sling a bunch of insults without saying anything at all about what I said.  You almost never actually respond to anything, you just sling poo at the walls of your cage.

    Please read your troll and tell me one thing you just said that was actually contributing anything at all to the conversation.  Heck, excluding the OP point out one thing you’ve contributed to this conversation in this entire thread?  Java indeed.

     

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    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  jbear.
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