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Golf swing pivot

This topic contains 33 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Coffeeisland May. 21, 2019 at 10:17 pm.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 34 total)
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  • #1183774

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    A+ post, my friend!

    Thank you, Sir

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    #1183987

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    Having the intent of getting the left shoulder under your chin is most likely enough to accomplish the move going into the backswing. You’re not making any big dipping motions. As you go thru the takeaway, you will reach a point when lowering the left shoulder any further will cause you to get out of synch. It’s the same point that you will start feeling the urge to pick the club up by cocking your wrists and/or bending your right elbow excessively and prematurely. It is in this area that you have the opportunity to learn how to rotate your shoulders.

     

    Your shoulder movement must be formed with the intent and feeling of enhancing the pivot. The original pivot discussion went over the backswing with the “standing tall” drill and getting in your posture dynamically. The counterclockwise downswing rotation of the left shoulder should harmonize with and enhance the clearing of the left hip. When done properly the left hip will stay inside the left foot, you will easily maintain pressure down thru your right leg/foot and into the ground while the weight remains more toward the instep/heel rather than the toes. Finding these connections are the key to repeating a great pivot.

     

    https://imgur.com/a/W5h4PIx

     

    I don’t like the way I described Hogan’s right arm movement in this photo. I made it sound like his elbow was glued to his side throughout the swing. While the upper arm and shoulder maintain their connection, the elbows do have some freedom. The only way this freedom is allowed to work is because the shoulders are supporting the arms. We keep the clubhead outside of the hands in the first part of the backswing. With a good grip and no need for manipulation, the shoulder rotation will allow the forearms to rotate slightly…just enough to keep up with the rotating shoulders….don’t overdo it and start whipping the club around. Eventually the clubhead catches up to  the hands. When it passes the hands is when the magic can happen. It’s more a feeling of the club shaft falling to your right rather than cocking upwards and falling toward your shoulders. At the very least, it is a blend of these movements. The important part is to get a feel of how the club falling back to your right is a good thing. When done properly the weight of the clubhead will mimic the would-be kindling and will NATUARLLY move the right elbow toward your center and to your side as a counter. When done perfectly, it looks like this Hogan image.

     

    —edit

    Maintaining the grip will probably be difficult for many at first. But by maintaining it is how the club will fall naturally back toward your shoulders, as we see in all golf swings, while having the intention of it falling to the right…magic. Later, when you have progressed, you can start playing with different hand and finger pressure combinations on the gripthat produce different ball flights.

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    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  Coffeeisland.
    #1184025

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    https://imgur.com/a/Im994Jh

     

    This sequence is really good for seeing Mr Hogan’s footwork. I’m interested in the right foot for this discussion.

     

    I mentioned earlier about feeling  the weight/pressure down thru the right leg/foot and into the ground. When the pressure is concentrated more toward the inside of the right heel….the inside half of the whole heel pad, not just one little point on the very back left of the heel….it allows you to keep your right foot flat, or at least much flatter, throughout the transition into the downswing. This will allow you to unlock the power from the lower body at the most opportune time.

     

    https://imgur.com/a/W5h4PIx

     

    Look at the harmony between power, balance, serenity and purpose. Nothing is getting “outside of itself”. Study both photos and mimic them. Note that Hogan advocated having his right foot perpendicular to the target line and the left foot flared open. The outside edge of the right foot is your point of reference….how much easier to keep the weight back…which in turn helps you maintain your grip. Get a good grip with proper foot positions and just find a way…any way…to make that a starting position to give yourself a reference of where you want to go with things.

     

    One of the lesser known lessons here is that keeping the weight in your heel also keeps the right hip from jutting forward toward the target line and swinging out and around the left hip. You should strive to feel how the left hip clears back and left which allows the right hip to take that natural path “out and around” the left hip but does NOT have the right hip get closer to the target line. Take note of when and how much his hips open throughout and how open they are at impact.

     

    It is only when your hands approach the hitting zone that you release the right leg by letting the weight go to the right big toe….right knee at ball. All of this together will now allow you to stay down thru the shot and not hump the goat. This combined with the duality of your stable arms and hands self governing the shoulder rotation is where you find the power and accuracy.

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    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by  Coffeeisland.
    #1184140

    DonkeyHunter
    Participant

    Love seeing the emphasis on footwork.

    IMO, the swing is built from the ground up.

    My thought process, particularly during transition, is to start from the bottom up. It keeps me connected and ensures that my arms aren’t outracing the rest of my body. I, occasionally, use the Tour Striker Smart Ball for range sessions to hammer that feeling home (and I’ll use it for my short game when I start getting a little too “handsy”).

    Been playing in a men’s game the past few weeks, so I’ve been going at it on the range more than usual (up to 3, sometimes 4, days a week not counting actual course time).

    Again, love these posts and the overall thread @coffeeisland

    Definitely a nice change of pace from the constant barrage of politics/conspiracy theory threads that kill this part of the board.

     

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    #1184143

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    Finding, feeling and using the ground makes everything pivot related possible/better.

     

    The transition phase is where all of the magic can happen. It is also the most misunderstood and fault filled part of the swing. I should probably let these posts sink in for a bit but, next up will be a discussion about the transition. I’ll try explaining how my right arm and elbow can, if allowed, bring it all together.

     

    Glad to hear you’re playing in a game nowadays. Nothing like a little friendly competition to get you out there more often.

     

    Agree this board is not as vibrant as it should be. It gets tiring.

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    #1184145

    DonkeyHunter
    Participant

    Yeah. Always nice to have a little friendly comp.

    Trying to get set for a tournament series at my club. Played there yesterday with my swing coach, as I’m struggling to get through a 3-hole stretch (#7-#9) that’s murdering my rounds.

    For example, yesterday I was even par going into that stretch. First, you get a par 3 that is 205 yards to an elevated green and will play as long as 230 at times. Then, you get a par 4 that measures out at 505 but plays downhill and is a slight dogleg left (perfect for my draw, but just brutally long), and then a par 5 that plays 530, but is a huge dogleg right that slopes left towards no mans land the whole way across (not ideal for a draw unless you can cut it).

    Like I said, even par going in, and card 40 at the turn. Bogey, bogey, dbl bogey through the “gauntlet”. The biggest kick in the nuts is the double…especially on a par 5.

    I honestly think the worst part is the mindset starting the back nine after that stretch. The feeling that you’re having to “press” everything in order to get it back. And, that leads to all things bad.

    Came up with some good strategies though. Look forward to getting out there and working on them.

    Sorry about the rant. Lol.

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    #1184158

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    You’ll do it.

    Practice round with coach-check

    Understand the pitfalls of the hole-check

    Dedicated  practice-check

     

    See it, believe it, hit it

     

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    #1184163

    DonkeyHunter
    Participant

    You’ll do it.

    Practice round with coach-check

    Understand the pitfalls of the hole-check

    Dedicated practice-check

    See it, believe it, hit it

    Exactly. ESPECIALLY the last part.

    For instance, the par 3 has a false front and bail out are to the right. 4-5 iron depending on the wind, but play a little further to the right of normal. Mindset is to really try to work the draw. If it doesn’t turnover, the bail out spot is the miss. Up and down as there’s a ton of green to work with.

    MINDSET – Par is birdie

    The super long par 4. Go with driver and work an easy natural draw. When I’m striking it well, I can roll out 290-295 due to the downhill aspect of the hole. Average on that hole is around 275-280. Anywhere from a 4-iron to 5-iron in, with the intention of the miss being short. Rely on the short game.

    MINDSET – Par is birdie.

    Par 5 is where we go unconventional. Putting the 2-iron back in the bag and ditching the 5-wood. I can cut the 2-iron off the tee. Playing this as a 3-shot Par 5. Hole typically plays downwind, and the dogleg starts it’s cut around 220 but the run off on the left is around 260 from the tee. 2-iron should land (with cut) at the turn. From there, my 2nd will be whatever gets me to a comfortable full 60 degree wedge in. It’s the tee shot that’s killing me.

    MINDSET – Be smart off the tee. This is a scoring hole. Go into the turn with momentum.

     

    I cant stress enough the importance of course management. I know plenty of weekend warriors who could drop 10 strokes off their game in a single round, if they had sound course management. Play to your strengths, plan your misses, play to the middle of the green and not the pin, etc.

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    #1184173

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    Yes! I agree about game management…..that and putting are the two things that any Tom, Dick or Harry can be the best in the world at.

     

    Walking away with par on your most difficult holes is definitely a win. A nice old school three shot birdie on a par 5 can sometimes briefly take the wind out of your competition.

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    #1184764

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    Hey DH, not much traction in this thread and that’s OK. I enjoy talking golf anyway. But there are so few people discussing Alex Noreen”s Pre shot routine that this discussion is in the top 25 on the google….That’s gold Jerry! Gold!!

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    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Coffeeisland.
    #1184831

    DonkeyHunter
    Participant

    You want to contact Noren’s agent, or would you like me to do it?

    Lol.

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    #1185804

    DonkeyHunter
    Participant

    @coffeeisland

    Just saw a video online of Bobby Jones walking through a practice routine.

    Aside from my fascination of the production of it, I was amazed at the narration.

    I cant post it, as it’s being flagged by this shitty site. But, such a piece of history. Pure poetry in motion.

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    #1185818

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    Oh man, Bobby Jones was way ahead of his time. He was an absolute genius. Jones, Hogan, Norman, Trevino, knew how to wield the golf club. They had an innate understanding of getting out of their own way. More names from back in the day could go on that list. But I don’t know how many modern players would fit that…Bubba, Dustin, Spieth v1….?? The art of the swing (wielding the club) has taken more of a back seat to the science.

     

    Will be checking out some Jones videos soon. Thanks.

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    #1186778

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    This short video of Hogan on the Ed Sullivan show somewhat summarizes my description of the hands, arms and shoulders in the golf swing. Having this video in mind while performing DonkeyHunter’s half swing drill can really get you on the path to compressing the golf ball. Be aware the direction of your shot but steady gains toward solid contact is the goal so far.

     

    https://imgur.com/a/3Wjl9EA

     

    Moving forward from that point you need to know what to do with your arms and hands specifically….if you don’t know what limits to put on your hands, they will take over and wreak havoc with your swing. Previous posts were made to get the golfer into the mindset of using the body/big muscles to control the movement.

     

    It kind of goes without saying and at the same time is not said enough that there is obviously more than one way to swing a golf club successfully. This is my way of compressing the golf ball without worries of errant shots…..not a bad way to stand on the tee box or look at a long iron over water 😉 If/when my swing thoughts are put into practice, you will at some point be aware that there must be more freedom given to the arms for a successful golf swing. Well, here we are.

     

    https://imgur.com/a/Za1sVjt

     

    Ben Hogan said his waggle was much more than a way to loosen up for a shot. It was a rehearsal for what he did in his swing. He describes the movement of the hands. He is not describing the action taken by the hands. Watch this video until you can easily see how the elbows are the moving force behind the hand action. The left elbow moves a little away from his body while turning “clockwise”. The right elbow moves a little forward, toward the target line, and a bit into his body while rotating clockwise…..Hogan described it moving to his watch pocket. He had long arms though, so into the side of your stomach is probably a good starting point. Assuming you have and MAINTAIN a proper grip of the club and start your takeaway with supple wrists with the club outside of your hands, as described previously, the weight of the clubhead going through space will automatically set your wrists. It is basically the opposite of the old David Leadbetter set the club early swing….not criticizing, just for reference. The goal is to get to the point where the weight of the club sets your wrists and automatically bends your right arm.

     

    I believe people struggle by trying to get the club behind them, pointing to the target. It’s way too much of the focus. A natural setting of the wrists allows the club to fall from “vertical” towards horizontal while also falling towards the center of your pivot…hence it points to the flag and is where authentic lag is created.

     

    Whenever I feel I’m losing it, I go back to the following building blocks of my swing. I address the ball with my shoulders supporting my arms and hands, much like the Ed Sullivan video. I stand tall and move to get my left shoulder to touch the underside of my chin. I allow and encourage this movement to produce a strong pivot motion with this lower body image in mind:

    https://imgur.com/a/ZMM5shX

     

    This is where/why the clubhead MUST stay outside of the hands going back. When building my swing back up, I like to feel as though I have pretty much completed my pivot by the time I finish the takeaway. Watching how Hogan’s right leg initiated his swing is a good image for this. I always keep my upper arms connected at the shoulders and just continue the takeaway until I reach the point where something has to bend, twist or roll….the end of this takeaway will have the club naturally pointing much more “down field” than to the ground a foot or so outside of your right foot. It is at this moment that the Hogan waggle and my discription of the shoulders “internally rotating clockwaise” takes place.

     

    It’s as if I am trying to lay or flop the club over….imagine standing straight and holding the club vertically out in front of you with a good grip. The clubhead is at 12:00. Let it fall to the right to 3:00. It’s a beautiful thing when done in motion using Hogan’s waggle and a strong pivot to get to the top of your swing. Practice this until you find that sweet mother of all that is holy feeling of power that begins your downswing. This is the new starting point of your swing. You can control what is done up until here. Now it is time to figure out how to get out of your own way and unleash fury in the universe that holds that golf ball.

     

     

     

     

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    #1186865

    Coffeeisland
    Participant

    https://youtu.be/y8RwgK7h_OM

     

    Great video of Hogan describing his grip and the pressure points he focuses on. If you apply just enough pressure “to feel it” during the takeaway, keeping the clubhead outside the hands becomes much easier. That same pressure during the waggle keeps the integrity of your grip and governs the “fall” from 12:00-3:00. At the top, it encourages the club to find the correct AND CONSISTENT path toward your shoulder area and “looking” at the flag.

     

    Each golfer will find a different path based on week vs strong grip, amount of pressure etc. The important thing is to learn what enhances your pivot and ultimately what produces a square and stable clubhead through impact.

     

    You must learn to experiment within the boundaries of enhancing the pivot. More upright or bent over? Steeper or more shallow? Cupped left wrist or flat? Different combinations (and more) of the above can produce golf ball compression. They will also produce different looking swings in terms of plane angle and height of the swing. The solid pivot gives your spine a place to settle into which then allows a much fuller and easier turn. You will find that it feels as if you have more time and focus to allow the waggle to complete the backswing and develope a map into the transition > downswing…..

     

    just enough pressure

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