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    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      Just asking. What is the point of this board?What used to be a very interesting message board full of informed posters and PR input is now as dead as Walter White. End of the show or what?

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      Garv,We both remember the good times.When is had the support of SR, it was the best Buc's interactive board.But it became too  "restrictive" for what SR wanted to do. He is the publisher and however he sees what the board can or cannot do, it is at his option.Once the memberships fees were gone, PR no longer had to answer questions from the "members" they didn't want to answer.It appears that PR not fully support the G2G as it was initially created. Publicity was late  many times. Once the G2G only went where there was a sponsor - it  died. A good part of the camaraderie of the members died with itSR stopped interacting with the members on the board. There used to be a place where an icon was used to direct questions to Scott and Mark. Now questions can by by for days or forever for Scott to answer any question on either board.be posted and it takes days or never, before there is an answer.Articles of all kinds and the chat used to be on both boards and slowly but sure, they stopped showing up on the HOF board. Now they are non existent.It used to be a members only board and the members contributed to "correcting" the members who abused the privilege of using he board. The "rules" supposedly still in effect were not enforced , and we all saw the result. (You still see it on the Red board with the name calling)Bottom line, IMO, it died for lack of support from the top.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1312

      This board is completely useless now. Kinda sad really. There used to be some really good discussion here.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      does anyone remember when there was a discussion on the Insider Board about a special, Insiders-only board where Insiders would vote on membership?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      Pewter Reporters Scott Reynolds, Mark Cook, Eric Horchy & Eric Dellaratta are on hand to answer your questions regarding the Bucs. This board is limited to posters with Pro Bowler or Hall of Famer status.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      When is the last time SR answered a question on either of these boards.There has been one open question about Xavier, (for which he asked for payers) then not too long after we have heard nothing from him even with a thread specifically asking for his response.Absentee ownership?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2000

      does anyone remember when there was a discussion on the Insider Board about a special, Insiders-only board where Insiders would vote on membership?

      Cost me a fortune. I had my signs and flyers all printed up, staff hired and then nothing happened.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      They have stepped back from being an interactive presence on their forums. So many topics are going by, like this one, without their comment. The forums have always been my main draw to the website. Not interacting with us isn’t a huge deal to me honestly. Provided a robust and active membership. That part seems to be slipping pretty badly. Last draft might have been a catalyst, but it may have been slipping away leading up to that even. For the first time since I started seriously following the Bucs, I find myself looking to see if there are other Buc fan forums.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      While it is a loss not to have an active “Insider” board, I think a big reason why there’s less activity on PR Forums in total is because of how bad the Bucs have sucked (also taking a while to get rid of trolls didn’t help).Really, there's just not a lot of fun stuff to talk about the Bucs after a decade of being bottom feeders. A lot of interesting discussion (for me) is centered around schemes, player fits, football philosophy, etc.  So there's lots of interesting stuff to talk about with (for example) the Seahawks.  You can have a 20 page disucsion on their 4-3 hybrid while the Bucs defence hasn't done anything remotely interesting (successful) since Kiffin.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      They have stepped back from being an interactive presence on their forums. So many topics are going by, like this one, without their comment. The forums have always been my main draw to the website. Not interacting with us isn't a huge deal to me honestly. Provided a robust and active membership. That part seems to be slipping pretty badly. Last draft might have been a catalyst, but it may have been slipping away leading up to that even. For the first time since I started seriously following the Bucs, I find myself looking to see if there are other Buc fan forums.

      It just might be that since "ads" now pay  for the site's expenses and the members are no longer needed, SR can now ignore the criticism leveled at the site.Good example might be the "Poll". When was the last time it worked correctly? Will it ever be fixed permanently??I don't expect a response will be forthcoming from SR. With the chat now gone, he has no need to interface. He can prepare his FAB5, publish it and walk away until next week.  At least that seems to be the pattern I have observed.About 6 weeks ago questions were asked about Xavier - no response on the boards from him. 2 PM sent to him, still no response - privately nor publicly.Unc

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1875

      The need to deal with customers is clearly explained with the absence of ANY activity on this BOARD since the last post, and in spite of my public and private request for updates I have heard NOTHING and haven’t even been told to mind my own business.  Won’t happen again.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      It is really distressing to see only 9 posts on this board since the first of the year.SR has seen so it that the Hall Of Fame board traffic is now directed to the Red Board so that no responses are expected from him. The chat is also dead so he doesn't have to respond to that either.Like someone else indicated, does he really provide any current info any more? The last Fab5 is a perfect example (see Red Board-it's no longer posted here).

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 19

      I enjoyed the Insiders board during season, draft, and the numerous coaching searches.  Red Board was just too much noise for me to filter through.  I’d like to see this board kick back up during those times.  I have certainly appreciated reading everyone’s input and found most to be quite knowledgable. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4407

      Just asking. What is the point of this board?What used to be a very interesting message board full of informed posters and PR input is now as dead as Walter White. End of the show or what?

      Does appear to be.  The College board likewise has been taken over by a couple of spaminators. Sp?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      Being honest though, a big reason that the Hall of Fame Board isn’t active is because posters aren’t posting here.  That’s not PR’s fault, posters decided to go elsewhere or to the Red Board.  And I don’t think the lack of participation from PR is the reason for that. I remember when PR started also posting on the Red Board – it was because there already was a lack of traffic on this board. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 173

      What tog said. It is not PR’s fault, every group takes a critical mass to maintain and the Insider Board just doesn’t have it. I myself rarely post because others are more informed and I have little of value to add except for opinion which is a ripe target for people.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1875

      Tog – the difference occurred with the change in product, specifically the relationship between paying Insider members receiving responses to questions, getting information quickly and effectively.  With that broken in what one could consider PR’s discretion I do think at least a good portion of the collapse of this board is due to the PR decision.  And this is the longest member thread I have seen on this board in months. Sad. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      Tog - the difference occurred with the change in product, specifically the relationship between paying Insider members receiving responses to questions, getting information quickly and effectively.  With that broken in what one could consider PR's discretion I do think at least a good portion of the collapse of this board is due to the PR decision.  And this is the longest member thread I have seen on this board in months. Sad.

      Yes, you might be right in drawing the decline to the ending of a paying membership.  Participation by PR on the board in general changed at that time.I think PR's reporting, which was always very good, has improved since eliminating memberships. But interaction with PR and the Insider board suffered as a result and I miss both.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      Tog - the difference occurred with the change in product, specifically the relationship between paying Insider members receiving responses to questions, getting information quickly and effectively.  With that broken in what one could consider PR's discretion I do think at least a good portion of the collapse of this board is due to the PR decision.  And this is the longest member thread I have seen on this board in months. Sad.

      Yes, you might be right in drawing the decline to the ending of a paying membership.  Participation by PR on the board in general changed at that time.I think PR's reporting, which was always very good, has improved since eliminating memberships. But interaction with PR and the Insider board suffered as a result and I miss both.

      IMO Pewter Report is better than ever. Better reporting, better web site, better videos etc. PR is simply much bigger than it was in the old days. Hell, I liked the paper magazine as much as anyone but have moved on. Really like the Pewter Pulse BTW.I do miss the smaller get 2 gethers we had.Anyway, I guess this board was my favorite because of the quality of the posters. I got to know many of them and really enjoyed their input. Buc Joe for instance. The Red Board was avoided in those days because it got so personal when it came to disagreements. It still can get that way and I have contributed to that nastiness myself at times.Different times. But I'll still post and read here from time to time, hoping some of those All Star posters show up. Including 4Bucs! Where the hell is Pat?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 955

      I just wanted to say wazzup fellas, miss you guys.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      I just wanted to say wazzup fellas, miss you guys.

      Back at you Chev, another CLASSIC old time poster from the golden age of the Insiders Board.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4407

      Tog - the difference occurred with the change in product, specifically the relationship between paying Insider members receiving responses to questions, getting information quickly and effectively.  With that broken in what one could consider PR's discretion I do think at least a good portion of the collapse of this board is due to the PR decision.  And this is the longest member thread I have seen on this board in months. Sad.

      Yes, you might be right in drawing the decline to the ending of a paying membership.  Participation by PR on the board in general changed at that time.I think PR's reporting, which was always very good, has improved since eliminating memberships. But interaction with PR and the Insider board suffered as a result and I miss both.

      IMO Pewter Report is better than ever. Better reporting, better web site, better videos etc. PR is simply much bigger than it was in the old days. Hell, I liked the paper magazine as much as anyone but have moved on. Really like the Pewter Pulse BTW.I do miss the smaller get 2 gethers we had.Anyway, I guess this board was my favorite because of the quality of the posters. I got to know many of them and really enjoyed their input. Buc Joe for instance. The Red Board was avoided in those days because it got so personal when it came to disagreements. It still can get that way and I have contributed to that nastiness myself at times.Different times. But I'll still post and read here from time to time, hoping some of those All Star posters show up. Including 4Bucs! Where the hell is Pat?

      The Red Board was avoided in those days because it got so personal when it came to disagreements. It still can get that way and I have contributed to that nastiness myself at times.That is why this board exists. Generally speaking those on here try to be more civil and not constantly try to be sarcastic and Smart A##eS.  I admit I can be just as reactive in such an environment.  It is easy to fall into a reactive rather than proactive mode when you are attacked personally. Would like to know about Pat as well I enjoyed hearing him on the radio before guys like Duemig drove him off.  (I almost never listen to that show anymore)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1875

      I just wanted to say wazzup fellas, miss you guys.

      And to you too my friend - I hope all is well with you and your family.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      change is never easyPR is a business, so I assume they do what's best for their business. They don't owe anybody anything.  Customers vote with their clicks.  If collecting $10 a month from a handful was better for their business than the current set up, I presume they'd go right back.

    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      change is never easyPR is a business, so I assume they do what's best for their business. They don't owe anybody anything.  Customers vote with their clicks.  If collecting $10 a month from a handful was better for their business than the current set up, I presume they'd go right back.

      BINGO............ CK gets itthis is a business like any other business..........it's not a social hangout.  time is money and I'm sure the powers that be here understand that it is smarter to spend time digging for news to publish than hold the hands of a bunch freaks trying to keep their club together.  it just makes more business sense for them to be professional sports reporters.Message boards are Dying.  they are a thing of the past.  I understood and appreciated that back in the day when I was the Lead Mod on the Bucs Official Board.  Most team boards are run by amatuers now, as the NFL teams saw it was a waste of recsources and time for them.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      change is never easyPR is a business, so I assume they do what's best for their business. They don't owe anybody anything.  Customers vote with their clicks.  If collecting $10 a month from a handful was better for their business than the current set up, I presume they'd go right back.

      BINGO............ CK gets itthis is a business like any other business..........it's not a social hangout.  time is money and I'm sure the powers that be here understand that it is smarter to spend time digging for news to publish than hold the hands of a bunch freaks trying to keep their club together.  it just makes more business sense for them to be professional sports reporters.Message boards are Dying.  they are a thing of the past.  I understood and appreciated that back in the day when I was the Lead Mod on the Bucs Official Board.  Most team boards are run by amatuers now, as the NFL teams saw it was a waste of recsources and time for them.

      Well it was a damn good "bunch of freaks" and it was a better board in those days. I still enjoy PR message boards but certainly don't take most of the "takes" all that seriously. "Experts" can be bad enough but message board "experts?" Well you DOD have to LOL at the ammount of posters who honestly believe they'be good NFL GM's.Still hoping some of the old crowd turns up soon. You never know. 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      Garv wrote:"IMO Pewter Report is better than ever. Better reporting, better web site, better videos etc. PR is simply much bigger than it was in the old days. Hell, I liked the paper magazine as much as anyone but have moved on. Really like the Pewter Pulse BTW.I do miss the smaller get 2 gethers we had.Garve I don;t know that I 100% agree with your statement. The boards and site are not better. The new site has been up how long and there are still issues that still don't work correctly even when called to the attention of the powers that be. In addition, the 4 people named on the site do not appear to be the same 4 people doing the writing and/or reporting. One writer seems to do nothing but report in quotes some information and then give us his personal opinion of what we just read. Don't see him writing any original copy (at least I haven't seen it)Just who is doing the writing and how much time are both Scott and Mark participating today with more timely information than they did previously. I don't know, but it doesn't appear to be more. Its definite less personal and more commercial, IMO.If the report and/or writing is better might I ask why is a nothing organization(JBF) getting on PFT and announcements made by other media before its on PR?Can't tell you about some of things they are doing as I (and am not alone) do not do any social media and or do not have a smart phone.Now even the rules are't being followed. People can say what they chose and no one from PR is seemingly editing and/or correcting the guilty poster so why mention PR as a family site? If that continues then why not just arbitrarily get rid of the rules like was done with: the non commercial G2G posting key articles on both boards the icon to ask PR a question and GET a responseany support for the Hall of Fame board the chat and anything else that might cause any kind of a waveBy far, IMO, the biggest mistake was created by Scott. He got so many of us to pay attention about the situation with a young man named Xavier.  Even to getting personal and asking us to pray about it, which many members did, and still gave updates on the boards. Later, when some of us had the "gall" to ask Scott for an update both on the boards multiple times and I (it was mentioned I wasn't the only one) sent a personal email for a response.TO THIS DAY SCOTT HAS CHOSEN TO IGNORE THE REQUESTS.So Garv, I'm very sorry but right now I just don't see it the way that you do.What we have now in PR is a pure commercial business site with most of the data now available elsewhere - and sooner.Unc

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 17

      Hey, good to see you all here again. Kinda miss the old crowd.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 41

      I’m still here from the good ole Buc Mag days.  I mostly comment on facebook posts or read (ninja like) and post here very little while trying to take refuge from the trolls and other hacks that think their opinion matters more than others.  :PBoards have changed a lot, but the content is as great as it was in the beginning, which is all because of Scott. Keep it up!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1091

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

      Yucc you may have seen this already,http://www.sportsmanagementworldwide.com/courses/football-gm-scouting?gclid=CMONtZPN08sCFYlrfgodH2IABw

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1091

      Anti – Thanks. I have actually completed that course and the one from the NationalFootballPost.com. Currently in the last one I could find with the TheScoutingAcademy.com.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 41

      I’m with ya brother :)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

      I am. Let's do it Yucs!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 25

      I rarely visit these boards anymore, and a quick look at the Red Board is a fantastic reason why. The message board as we knew it is dead…and I’m not just talking about PR. It’s everywhere. Somewhere over the last few years, rational people starting fleeing the message board model because the trolls with internet anonymity became too much.This is why I now pretty much stick to the Bucs sub on Reddit. Their model is so much better because it filters out trolls. Say something that's idiotic? You get downvoted into oblivion and your comment goes to the bottom and eventually hidden once it passes a certain threshold.The reason the Insider Board worked was because it was paying customers...it was the people who care enough about the team to get premium content. Now any keyboard jockey can spam the Red Board enough that he would get access to this board, and continue his reign of terror.I too miss the "good ol' days," even though I came in near the end (member since '05-'06-ish). But as people have mentioned above, it's just collateral damage that came from PR changing and the internet in general changing. I encourage y'all to check out reddit.com/r/buccaneers. It's a younger crowd and there's still some dummies, but the crap gets filtered out so much better. Continue to read PR, obviously, because the site in general is still great. But these boards just won't ever be the way they used to be.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      I rarely visit these boards anymore, and a quick look at the Red Board is a fantastic reason why. The message board as we knew it is dead...and I'm not just talking about PR. It's everywhere. Somewhere over the last few years, rational people starting fleeing the message board model because the trolls with internet anonymity became too much.This is why I now pretty much stick to the Bucs sub on Reddit. Their model is so much better because it filters out trolls. Say something that's idiotic? You get downvoted into oblivion and your comment goes to the bottom and eventually hidden once it passes a certain threshold.The reason the Insider Board worked was because it was paying customers...it was the people who care enough about the team to get premium content. Now any keyboard jockey can spam the Red Board enough that he would get access to this board, and continue his reign of terror.I too miss the "good ol' days," even though I came in near the end (member since '05-'06-ish). But as people have mentioned above, it's just collateral damage that came from PR changing and the internet in general changing. I encourage y'all to check out reddit.com/r/buccaneers. It's a younger crowd and there's still some dummies, but the crap gets filtered out so much better. Continue to read PR, obviously, because the site in general is still great. But these boards just won't ever be the way they used to be.

      Thank you. I have been looking for alternatives. I will check it out tonight.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

      I respect the opinions of a dozen posters on this forum as much as any Bucaneer voice.  Yours being top of that list. How far below NFL average was our kicking last season? Do you support using the 74th and 106th picks in this draft to shore up that need?  I thought you fell in closer with my own opinions of drafting BPA over need, but your argument seems completely need based. Do you think this is the best kicking prospect in the last 15 drafts and clearly well above the next best?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1091

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

      I respect the opinions of a dozen posters on this forum as much as any Bucaneer voice.  Yours being top of that list. How far below NFL average was our kicking last season? Do you support using the 74th and 106th picks in this draft to shore up that need?  I thought you fell in closer with my own opinions of drafting BPA over need, but your argument seems completely need based. Do you think this is the best kicking prospect in the last 15 drafts and clearly well above the next best?

      threadkiller - thanks for the kind words! How far below NFL average was our kicking last season? Its was horrid at best. Factor in the new rule changes and Aguayo's ability to mortar kick is added value. Its about taking the rules and turning it in to an advantage by using a players ability to help the team win and place the player in the best position to succeed. Looking at Aguayo's VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) based on what his perceived production will be and the compensation the team will pay for and there should be a realized cap surplus - essentially a player who out preforms his wages. Thus the team is able to use the surplus to spend on another positions of need to fortify other areas of weakness by using the realized cap surplus.Do you support using the 74th and 106th picks in this draft to shore up that need?  I am in full support of what Licht did. If you like a player and feel he can impact the outcome of a game doesn't matter if other teams have him rated high or not. Stick to your board and if he fits schematically and what you want to do in the future, go get the guy. To me it shows conviction and an ability to interpret the rules. I will say this it's a ballsy move, there is no doubt about it. However to be in contention sometimes you have to make unorthodox moves that must do not understand. If Aguayo receive a second contract and is a 90% accurate kicker for the team over the next 10-years its a brilliant pick. I thought you fell in closer with my own opinions of drafting BPA over need, but your argument seems completely need based. I tend to lean to BVA (Best Value Available) or VORP. No matter what you hear from Scouts or General Managers must teams are always drafting based solely on need. Very few if any draft BPA. However its not only for immediate need but also beyond just the upcoming season but the one after that. That is why the structure of contracts, salary cap management and forecasting become huge in player selection. As ti gives a glimpse in to what the teams future plans might hold.  Examples:The team drafts Vernon Hargeaves & Ryan Smith in the 2016 draft.They signed Brent Grimes two a  two year deal with $7 million guaranteed (essentially a one year deal) They signed Josh Robinson to a one year dealAlterraun Verner is in the last year of guaranteed money on his current dealJohnthan Banks is in the final year of his rookie contract.Now the fun begins....the way the team has leveraged the CB group is an interesting dynamic and a stroke of brilliance, that will play out on the field in 2016. The team has pitted Grimes and Verner against one another to see which veteran will be with the team in 2017 as the elder statements of the group based on their level of play this upcoming season while also crafting Grimes contract to be at the same threshold as Verners in 2017 $6.5 million.Next the team signed Robinson to a one year deal and sized him up next to Banks. Both have a year to prove themselves and see if they can warrant a second contract to stay in Tampa.Now comes the rookies Hargreaves and Smith. The future of the group. The team has solidified the youth portion with these two and they will push one another more so then the the other four previously mentioned players. So i get why some fans scratch their heads. But there is more to drafting then what is strictly on the surface or in this case BPA. Do you think this is the best kicking prospect in the last 15 drafts and clearly well above the next best? He from a college prospective he is no doubt is the best one to come a long in sometime.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4407

      Well thought out reasoning and logic YUC

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

      I respect the opinions of a dozen posters on this forum as much as any Bucaneer voice.  Yours being top of that list. How far below NFL average was our kicking last season? Do you support using the 74th and 106th picks in this draft to shore up that need?  I thought you fell in closer with my own opinions of drafting BPA over need, but your argument seems completely need based. Do you think this is the best kicking prospect in the last 15 drafts and clearly well above the next best?

      threadkiller - thanks for the kind words! How far below NFL average was our kicking last season? Its was horrid at best. Factor in the new rule changes and Aguayo's ability to mortar kick is added value. Its about taking the rules and turning it in to an advantage by using a players ability to help the team win and place the player in the best position to succeed. Looking at Aguayo's VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) based on what his perceived production will be and the compensation the team will pay for and there should be a realized cap surplus - essentially a player who out preforms his wages. Thus the team is able to use the surplus to spend on another positions of need to fortify other areas of weakness by using the realized cap surplus.Do you support using the 74th and 106th picks in this draft to shore up that need?  I am in full support of what Licht did. If you like a player and feel he can impact the outcome of a game doesn't matter if other teams have him rated high or not. Stick to your board and if he fits schematically and what you want to do in the future, go get the guy. To me it shows conviction and an ability to interpret the rules. I will say this it's a ballsy move, there is no doubt about it. However to be in contention sometimes you have to make unorthodox moves that must do not understand. If Aguayo receive a second contract and is a 90% accurate kicker for the team over the next 10-years its a brilliant pick. I thought you fell in closer with my own opinions of drafting BPA over need, but your argument seems completely need based. I tend to lean to BVA (Best Value Available) or VORP. No matter what you hear from Scouts or General Managers must teams are always drafting based solely on need. Very few if any draft BPA. However its not only for immediate need but also beyond just the upcoming season but the one after that. That is why the structure of contracts, salary cap management and forecasting become huge in player selection. As ti gives a glimpse in to what the teams future plans might hold.  Examples:The team drafts Vernon Hargeaves & Ryan Smith in the 2016 draft.They signed Brent Grimes two a  two year deal with $7 million guaranteed (essentially a one year deal) They signed Josh Robinson to a one year dealAlterraun Verner is in the last year of guaranteed money on his current dealJohnthan Banks is in the final year of his rookie contract.Now the fun begins....the way the team has leveraged the CB group is an interesting dynamic and a stroke of brilliance, that will play out on the field in 2016. The team has pitted Grimes and Verner against one another to see which veteran will be with the team in 2017 as the elder statements of the group based on their level of play this upcoming season while also crafting Grimes contract to be at the same threshold as Verners in 2017 $6.5 million.Next the team signed Robinson to a one year deal and sized him up next to Banks. Both have a year to prove themselves and see if they can warrant a second contract to stay in Tampa.Now comes the rookies Hargreaves and Smith. The future of the group. The team has solidified the youth portion with these two and they will push one another more so then the the other four previously mentioned players. So i get why some fans scratch their heads. But there is more to drafting then what is strictly on the surface or in this case BPA. Do you think this is the best kicking prospect in the last 15 drafts and clearly well above the next best? He from a college prospective he is no doubt is the best one to come a long in sometime.

      Thanks Yucs. Rational explanations over angry jibber jabber, what a concept. I look at the Aguayo pick as one in which an extremely important area of our game is improved dramatically. Most NFL games are close, games won and lost in the last minutes of the game most of the time. This kid makes the Buccaneers better immediately! With the new kickoff rules and his ability to place the ball accurately, the Buccaneer's forward thinking gives us another advantage. The Bucs know that and went and got him. Thank you!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      Well thought out reasoning and logic YUC

      Never knew his posts to be any different. A real class act!!!  Always has been.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4407

      Did a little research.  Only 5 teams made all their extra points last season! Bucs missed 3.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 23

      I will be honest I quit posting some time ago and decided to only respond on the forums if someone asked me a question in a thread. Or if I wanted to see if there are like minded fans and a discussion with civility could be had. That might change the way I thought or looked at a  particular situation. But then I have also been taking as many Scouting / GM courses as possible to learn even more about the game I love, which has really taken much of my free time up.  I still read the forums multiple times per day. I do question the football acumen of some fans. Especially when you see the Red Board littered with garbage. The same fans complaining about the selection of  K Aguayo in the second round are the same one who complained about the kicking disaster last season. From a  roster management and team building standpoint I like the move. Last year the team left 36 points on the board (Missed PAT & Field Goals) and possibly and 8-8 or 9-7 season on the table due to poor kicking. So Licht decided to try and solidify the position and gain cap surplus in return as Aguayo is going to cost half of what Barth is costing and allows the team to project a  fixed dollar amount to its salary cap management in to the equation. While Licht hedges that Aguayo is at minimal on par with Barth or even better from an accuracy standpoint.  The Bucs lost four games by 6 points or less and additional two games by 7 points. If the team would have made those kicks and won half the games you’re looking at 9-7 season or an outside shot at the playoffs.I prefer to have an intelligent football conversation. Which I find it very hard to come by. I don’t even care if we disagree as long as there is tact, civility and well thought out banter to get both sides thinking. I say we make a pledge, that everyone of us who has responded in this thread to take the Insider Forum back and mold it in to what we want it to be. A place for true well thought out discussions on our beloved Bucs. We collectively as a group can lead the resurgence and shape the discussions and lead by example. If we want change lets be a part of the change rather than sit idly by and do nothing.  Who is with me???

      The forums have a very long way to go to get back to where they once were.  If you could make a comment without juvenile retort, it would be great.  But it seems those days are lost forever.  Truly sad.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9276

      Being honest though, a big reason that the Hall of Fame Board isn't active is because posters aren't posting here.  That's not PR's fault, posters decided to go elsewhere or to the Red Board.  And I don't think the lack of participation from PR is the reason for that. I remember when PR started also posting on the Red Board - it was because there already was a lack of traffic on this board.

      ^^ this ^^

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      Anti - Thanks. I have actually completed that course and the one from the NationalFootballPost.com. Currently in the last one I could find with the TheScoutingAcademy.com.

      Anyone's you've particularly enjoyed/found useful? 

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      PR has evolved…..nothing is as it used to be. Anyone that expects that isn’t being realistic. PR no longer communicates via printed mag and message boards. Welcome to the days of Facebook and Twitter. of which PR has over 20k followers.I've made some pretty good friends here and have football discussion with them almost daily. I don't need the message board to do so. One more thing, PR had a draft g2g friday night and i only saw 1 of the 'old guard' there.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Being honest though, a big reason that the Hall of Fame Board isn't active is because posters aren't posting here.  That's not PR's fault, posters decided to go elsewhere or to the Red Board.  And I don't think the lack of participation from PR is the reason for that. I remember when PR started also posting on the Red Board - it was because there already was a lack of traffic on this board.

      ^^ this ^^

      +2

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      Enjoyed the read as always yucc.I know you to be a numbers guy. I'm going to need you to break it down for me to dig me out of this pit.Our kicking crisis last season was completely self inflicted. Our GM gave the job to a rookie with a shaky college record and it blew up in his face. Forcing him to go back to a proven vet who had an unsettled season.  Still hit 82% of his kicks.  Little off his 84.8% career mark with 2 seasons over 90%.  I think we could have expected 85% from a settled Barth in 2016.  That should be the above replacement number. Not our butchered 2015 team kicking numbers that have blood all over our GMs hands.Barth is on the books for 1.33.  What will 2nd round kicker count against the cap?  Where is that value over a position (or 2 in this case) where average starters cost multiple times that?  I would think if we are looking at drafting from a cap standpoint, we would look at managing the cost at positions that could take a real bite out of us if forced to fill through free agency. I thought I read a quote from 1 Buc (Dirk?) that we were unlikely to employ the mortar kick?I am also very disturbed by the target your guy and go get him mentality. I think that is a terrible strategy over time. All the actual studies I have ever seen point to quantity being the key determinant to success. Maybe we will pick players better than everyone else has.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      I am also struggling to find the exceptional quality of this kicker. I admit I have never looked at kickers in any way. I still haven’t watched a second of this one. I would have no idea what to look for. What would make one so more valuable as to invest these resources?  I could see if the kicker gave you the ability to reasonably attempt FG outside the normal range. It doesn’t sound like this one does. It sounds like his exceptionalism is accuracy. That’s the tag line. Most accurate kicker in CFB history. So what does that mean?  95+% inside 50?  Guys hit well over 90% overall for entire seasons.  Lots of them. Barth has twice. He has to be pretty much perfect inside 50 for this not to be a busted scout right?  That’s what we are saying about him, because again, his range is not exceptional. If anything, it is questionable. He might also revolutionalize kick offs. Yeah, I’m going to have to see that.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 10626

      I am also struggling to find the exceptional quality of this kicker. I admit I have never looked at kickers in any way. I still haven't watched a second of this one. I would have no idea what to look for. What would make one so more valuable as to invest these resources?  I could see if the kicker gave you the ability to reasonably attempt FG outside the normal range. It doesn't sound like this one does. It sounds like his exceptionalism is accuracy. That's the tag line. Most accurate kicker in CFB history. So what does that mean?  95+% inside 50?  Guys hit well over 90% overall for entire seasons.  Lots of them. Barth has twice. He has to be pretty much perfect inside 50 for this not to be a busted scout right?  That's what we are saying about him, because again, his range is not exceptional. If anything, it is questionable. He might also revolutionalize kick offs. Yeah, I'm going to have to see that.

      With kickers, a lot of it is between the ears. Guys can look like All Pros in practice, but you get out there with 50,000 fans screaming at you, its a different story.  Or you need to kick that 53 yarder in overtime to win it. I think this guy has that. He has been known to talk a little smack pregame to the opponents. You gotta have a little of that to succeed.  IMO

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1858

      threadkiller, I’m 100% with you.  Anti-Java’s right –  a good kicker has a lot to do with their mental makeup.  But that’s part of what frustrates me, you really don’t know how he’ll react in an NFL game.  It’s different than kicking in college as evidence by the fact that not a single Top 10 player in NCAA F.G. % has had a successful NFL career kicking.The issues I see:1) NFL kickers take time to develop because the mental strain of kicking is easier when you're older and more mature.  That's why players like Mike Nugent and Billy Cundiff had success later in their careers (and then Cundiff flamed out again).  Or Steven Hauschka and Matt Bryant.2) VORP is a great way to evaluate players except you have to factor in positional value.  Not a single other kicker was drafted.  The 2nd round, even in a "weak" draft, is a chance to find starters and the Bucs gave up that chance for a kicker. And even then, I think that the VORP would've favored many other players.3) The "accuracy" thing is overblown.  First, he was most accurate by 0.06% historically over Alex Henery - who has NOT had a successful NFL career to date.  Second, he was a 80% kicker in 2015 and has seen his accuracy go down each season.  He is very accurate but I don't see anything that suggests the "greatest kicker in a generation".As well, this whole "mortar kick" thing is grossly overblown.  No one's done it and it's unlikely the Bucs will actually employ it as a strategy.  You're not correctly valuing a player if you're factoring in a theoretical strategy based on a rules change that hasn't been employed by any special teams unit.4) Kickers flame out just like regular draft picks.  Just because the Bucs spent a 2nd on him, doesn't make him a "sure thing".  5) The Bucs only lost 1 game due to Brindza going 1/4 (and then only "winning" by 2 points if he hits 100%).  The Bucs didn't lose a game due to Barth's kicking.  In 2014 they lost two games to Murray's kicking.  So that's 3 games in 2 years assuming a 100% field goal rate.  Keep in mind that they wouldn've have necessarily won all those 3 games even if the Bucs hit 100% of their field goals.  Over Barth's entire career (2008-2015) his misses cost his team 2 "wins" and would have resulted in 1 "tie".  I'm not going to check but I'd wager the numbers are similar for most decent kickers.  6) It wasn't a "free" pick.  I've even seen Koetter say this and it's 100% wrong.  The Bucs traded down for which they got a 4th pick.  They received that because there was risk in someone taking a player they valued.  For all we know the Bucs valued Apple over VH3.  The 4th wasn't "free", it was a real pick that the Bucs spent to move up.There are more reasons I think it was a terrible pick but I'll leave it there for now.  Good teams keep their draft picks and don't keep trading up.  I'm a fan of Licht, but this move up reminded me of Dominik's itchy trigger finger.  And there's just now way you can justify spending the pick on a kicker.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1091

      Anti - Thanks. I have actually completed that course and the one from the NationalFootballPost.com. Currently in the last one I could find with the TheScoutingAcademy.com.

      Anyone's you've particularly enjoyed/found useful?

      They are all enjoyable and offer different learning experiences. The bulk is self learning. However there is great interaction with the course instructors. And because all there have a different general manger as one of the course instructors and different scouts and former coaches you get to here different philosophies and coaching points.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Now this is a thread I can appreciate. I'm basically with Tog and threadkiller on the idea of taking a kicker in the draft. Fundamentally, I believe that kickers are largely fungible - you have to avoid disaster seasons, but the gap between an average kicker and a great kicker isn't all that large. I think that teams have a form of bias about kickers though, in that a negative kick can outweigh a rational look at the overall picture. That said, I'm not sure that some of the negative comments about Aguayo (here, but mostly on the red board) are on point. For one thing, his college stats are both important and also misleading. His overall accuracy is clear, and importantly, he's shown that he can do it on just about the biggest stage. And he did it over 3 years. Frankly, I think the fact that he walked in as a freshman and killed it is extremely promising - I think it shows a mental strength that kickers have to have. Where it's misleading is this - college kicking is much different than the NFL. The hash mark difference is quite large, and the longer the kick, the more it exaggerates the way the kick is made. That's why I'm not too concerned with his accuracy over long distances, as I don't necessarily think that long-range success in college says all that much about long-range success in the pros. You guys may not know this, but when the Pats took Gostkowski with the 118th pick in 2006, his college record was pretty spotty - just 74%. Not only that, he missed 6 PATs. And yet, he's probably a top-3 kicker in this league over time. Mike Nugent, who multiple teams would have drafted somewhere in rounds 2-4 (he went to the Jets at 47, but remember Gruden absolutely loved him), was just an 81.4% college kicker. Janikowksi was a 79.5% kicker, and missed 3 PATs. When Licht says he's a "generational" kicker, he might not be far off. But that data also shows that college accuracy is just part of the scouting process here, and probably not the most important piece - you have to look at the whole picture, as in this breakdown. http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/24/scouting-profile-roberto-aguayo/I also think that the following article makes it pretty clear that was not getting out of round 3 (doesn't validate the decision) but shows that others rated him very highly. It's a good read, and shows that there's a lot of intelligence to Aguayo's approach: http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/04/21/roberto-aguayo-florida-state-nfl-draft.btw, someone asked about cap, and his number will be around $750k

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      Back to the Aguayo! I’ll type it again, knowing full well opinions on this pick seem set in stone on both sides, I get this pick and I get why the Buccaneers traded up for him.Obviously the Buccaneers, as well as many other NFL people, fans and "experts" see this young man as a rare talent. They believe he has shown to be able to kick at an extremely accurate rate in pressure situations, in front of huge crowds and consistantly for three seasons of big time college football. A once in a generation talent at his postion. His makeup and background also impressed the Buccaneers and most if not all of the scouts out there.Now when you consider that the Buccaneers really wanted him you might understand the trade up. There were too many teams that could have taken him in the third before the Bucs got to their pick. Even getting in front of the two Patriot picks was important because they could have easily traded one of them to get more picks themselves.If you also consider how many NFL games are decided late and how close most games are you have to understand how having a great kicker can win anough games to make a difference when talking playoffs. Kickers score points and points in close games matter a lot! They also have a lot to do with field postion on kickoffs. Again, Aquayo is noted for putting the ball where he wants to and with rules changes that matters now more than ever. It's true that it's a risk but all draft choices are risks. How many number one picks in the draft bomb? Many do. But here's the thing, the Buccaneers did their homework and are convinced Roberto Aguayo can be a great player for them for years to come. That's why they made the move when they did and it's certainly something I not only understand but applaud. In the case of the top three picks this year the Buccaneers got every one of the players they wanted from the get go. I like that. A lot.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      What does once in a generation talent mean to you at kicker?  If 8/9 kickers hit over 90% of their total FG attempts in the NFL last season. What does a kicker need to hit to show himself as generational?  Do you expect him to exceed the other kickers in accuracy within 50 yards?  Should we expect a higher % of made FG between 50 and 55 yards over non-generational kickers?  If he’s going to revolutionalize kick offs, should we expect to be around the top of the league next year in opponents average starting field position after a kick?  I keep seeing feelings from proponents of the trade. Still nothing that helps me understand why this move was an important one to make.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      What does once in a generation talent mean to you at kicker?  If 8/9 kickers hit over 90% of their total FG attempts in the NFL last season. What does a kicker need to hit to show himself as generational?  Do you expect him to exceed the other kickers in accuracy within 50 yards?  Should we expect a higher % of made FG between 50 and 55 yards over non-generational kickers?  If he's going to revolutionalize kick offs, should we expect to be around the top of the league next year in opponents average starting field position after a kick?  I keep seeing feelings from proponents of the trade. Still nothing that helps me understand why this move was an important one to make.

      That's just it. It wasn't made for you to understand. It was a decision by the Buccaneers for the team. Obviously they wanted Aquayo and they got him. I get that some message board posters are deeply offended. That much is obvious. I'm typing that I'm in line with what the Bucs did for pretty much the same reasons they did it. It's done and I'm glad it's done and there's not much to do about it either way.The Red Board is a fine place to go off about it over and over again. I think there's a few more threads on the subject today, calling Jason and the Bucs stupid, incompetent or whatever. But now the team has a kicker with tremendous skills and perhaps we can move on? I think we know by now the kid's going to be there opening day. That's a fact. And by the way? I'll be watching and hoping the Buccaneers kick the Falcons out of their own stadium. That's a fact too.

    • Anonymous

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      Now this is a thread I can appreciate. I'm basically with Tog and threadkiller on the idea of taking a kicker in the draft. Fundamentally, I believe that kickers are largely fungible - you have to avoid disaster seasons, but the gap between an average kicker and a great kicker isn't all that large. I think that teams have a form of bias about kickers though, in that a negative kick can outweigh a rational look at the overall picture. That said, I'm not sure that some of the negative comments about Aguayo (here, but mostly on the red board) are on point. For one thing, his college stats are both important and also misleading. His overall accuracy is clear, and importantly, he's shown that he can do it on just about the biggest stage. And he did it over 3 years. Frankly, I think the fact that he walked in as a freshman and killed it is extremely promising - I think it shows a mental strength that kickers have to have. Where it's misleading is this - college kicking is much different than the NFL. The hash mark difference is quite large, and the longer the kick, the more it exaggerates the way the kick is made. That's why I'm not too concerned with his accuracy over long distances, as I don't necessarily think that long-range success in college says all that much about long-range success in the pros. You guys may not know this, but when the Pats took Gostkowski with the 118th pick in 2006, his college record was pretty spotty - just 74%. Not only that, he missed 6 PATs. And yet, he's probably a top-3 kicker in this league over time. Mike Nugent, who multiple teams would have drafted somewhere in rounds 2-4 (he went to the Jets at 47, but remember Gruden absolutely loved him), was just an 81.4% college kicker. Janikowksi was a 79.5% kicker, and missed 3 PATs. When Licht says he's a "generational" kicker, he might not be far off. But that data also shows that college accuracy is just part of the scouting process here, and probably not the most important piece - you have to look at the whole picture, as in this breakdown. http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/24/scouting-profile-roberto-aguayo/I also think that the following article makes it pretty clear that was not getting out of round 3 (doesn't validate the decision) but shows that others rated him very highly. It's a good read, and shows that there's a lot of intelligence to Aguayo's approach: http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/04/21/roberto-aguayo-florida-state-nfl-draft.btw, someone asked about cap, and his number will be around $750k

      Nice read. I especially liked the part about long range kicks in college vs the NFL. I didn't know that although I'm quite sure the Buccaneers do. Well done, thanks and a hat tip!

    • Anonymous

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      What does once in a generation talent mean to you at kicker?  If 8/9 kickers hit over 90% of their total FG attempts in the NFL last season. What does a kicker need to hit to show himself as generational?  Do you expect him to exceed the other kickers in accuracy within 50 yards?  Should we expect a higher % of made FG between 50 and 55 yards over non-generational kickers?  If he's going to revolutionalize kick offs, should we expect to be around the top of the league next year in opponents average starting field position after a kick?  I keep seeing feelings from proponents of the trade. Still nothing that helps me understand why this move was an important one to make.

      That's just it. It wasn't made for you to understand. It was a decision by the Buccaneers for the team. Obviously they wanted Aquayo and they got him. I get that some message board posters are deeply offended. That much is obvious. I'm typing that I'm in line with what the Bucs did for pretty much the same reasons they did it. It's done and I'm glad it's done and there's not much to do about it either way.The Red Board is a fine place to go off about it over and over again. I think there's a few more threads on the subject today, calling Jason and the Bucs stupid, incompetent or whatever. But now the team has a kicker with tremendous skills and perhaps we can move on? I think we know by now the kid's going to be there opening day. That's a fact. And by the way? I'll be watching and hoping the Buccaneers kick the Falcons out of their own stadium. That's a fact too.

      Again, neither of us seems to be able to articulate what those tremendous skills are and how they will be different from the average skills displayed by current NFL kickers.  Despite your claim to understand and agree with our reasons for selecting him.Had we drafted Braxton Miller at 74, we could discuss how he will be different from our other receivers.  Then we could watch him and see if our evaluations of him as a prospect bear out.Do kickers improve over time?  It sounds like they do, so should we expect him to make 95% of his kicks next season?  Or maybe struggle a little and then improve to 95% in year 2?  Some seem to suggest this kid should walk in and be a top of the league kicker immediately. You are one of the posters I believe laments how there is not any real football discussion around here, but on this topic you just seem to want to table any serious discussions. 

    • Anonymous

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      What does once in a generation talent mean to you at kicker?  If 8/9 kickers hit over 90% of their total FG attempts in the NFL last season. What does a kicker need to hit to show himself as generational?  Do you expect him to exceed the other kickers in accuracy within 50 yards?  Should we expect a higher % of made FG between 50 and 55 yards over non-generational kickers?  If he's going to revolutionalize kick offs, should we expect to be around the top of the league next year in opponents average starting field position after a kick?  I keep seeing feelings from proponents of the trade. Still nothing that helps me understand why this move was an important one to make.

      That's just it. It wasn't made for you to understand. It was a decision by the Buccaneers for the team. Obviously they wanted Aquayo and they got him. I get that some message board posters are deeply offended. That much is obvious. I'm typing that I'm in line with what the Bucs did for pretty much the same reasons they did it. It's done and I'm glad it's done and there's not much to do about it either way.The Red Board is a fine place to go off about it over and over again. I think there's a few more threads on the subject today, calling Jason and the Bucs stupid, incompetent or whatever. But now the team has a kicker with tremendous skills and perhaps we can move on? I think we know by now the kid's going to be there opening day. That's a fact. And by the way? I'll be watching and hoping the Buccaneers kick the Falcons out of their own stadium. That's a fact too.

      Again, neither of us seems to be able to articulate what those tremendous skills are and how they will be different from the average skills displayed by current NFL kickers.  Despite your claim to understand and agree with our reasons for selecting him.Had we drafted Braxton Miller at 74, we could discuss how he will be different from our other receivers.  Then we could watch him and see if our evaluations of him as a prospect bear out.Do kickers improve over time?  It sounds like they do, so should we expect him to make 95% of his kicks next season?  Or maybe struggle a little and then improve to 95% in year 2?  Some seem to suggest this kid should walk in and be a top of the league kicker immediately. You are one of the posters I believe laments how there is not any real football discussion around here, but on this topic you just seem to want to table any serious discussions.

      tk, maybe you should give Garv a break because you're playing your part to kill some of the discussion with the rhetorical questions.  Its not impossible to say what one would expect from a "generational" kicker and so your repeated focus on the % comes across as making a point (not much differential value) rather than an honest question. From my perspective, Licht views our kicker as a long-term, top flight kicker and a CLUTCH performer.  Clutch performance is one thing that separates kickers (just like golfers) from great to good. Surely you can find examples in some of the other "great" kickers.  (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25361817/adam-vinatieri-continues-to-be-a-beast-in-the-clutch-sets-ot-record) Our kicker should end up being something like that or else the pick was too high.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1324

      What does once in a generation talent mean to you at kicker?  If 8/9 kickers hit over 90% of their total FG attempts in the NFL last season. What does a kicker need to hit to show himself as generational?  Do you expect him to exceed the other kickers in accuracy within 50 yards?  Should we expect a higher % of made FG between 50 and 55 yards over non-generational kickers?  If he's going to revolutionalize kick offs, should we expect to be around the top of the league next year in opponents average starting field position after a kick?  I keep seeing feelings from proponents of the trade. Still nothing that helps me understand why this move was an important one to make.

      That's just it. It wasn't made for you to understand. It was a decision by the Buccaneers for the team. Obviously they wanted Aquayo and they got him. I get that some message board posters are deeply offended. That much is obvious. I'm typing that I'm in line with what the Bucs did for pretty much the same reasons they did it. It's done and I'm glad it's done and there's not much to do about it either way.The Red Board is a fine place to go off about it over and over again. I think there's a few more threads on the subject today, calling Jason and the Bucs stupid, incompetent or whatever. But now the team has a kicker with tremendous skills and perhaps we can move on? I think we know by now the kid's going to be there opening day. That's a fact. And by the way? I'll be watching and hoping the Buccaneers kick the Falcons out of their own stadium. That's a fact too.

      Again, neither of us seems to be able to articulate what those tremendous skills are and how they will be different from the average skills displayed by current NFL kickers.  Despite your claim to understand and agree with our reasons for selecting him.Had we drafted Braxton Miller at 74, we could discuss how he will be different from our other receivers.  Then we could watch him and see if our evaluations of him as a prospect bear out.Do kickers improve over time?  It sounds like they do, so should we expect him to make 95% of his kicks next season?  Or maybe struggle a little and then improve to 95% in year 2?  Some seem to suggest this kid should walk in and be a top of the league kicker immediately. You are one of the posters I believe laments how there is not any real football discussion around here, but on this topic you just seem to want to table any serious discussions.

      tk, maybe you should give Garv a break because you're playing your part to kill some of the discussion with the rhetorical questions.  Its not impossible to say what one would expect from a "generational" kicker and so your repeated focus on the % comes across as making a point (not much differential value) rather than an honest question. From my perspective, Licht views our kicker as a long-term, top flight kicker and a CLUTCH performer.  Clutch performance is one thing that separates kickers (just like golfers) from great to good. Surely you can find examples in some of the other "great" kickers.  (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25361817/adam-vinatieri-continues-to-be-a-beast-in-the-clutch-sets-ot-record) Our kicker should end up being something like that or else the pick was too high.

      There you go. I believe, as do the Buccaneers obviously, that Aguayo will make a huge difference on special teams. Special teams are, after all, a third of the game! Scoring matters! Consistant scoring inside the 4o matters a lot, as does a strong leg capable of placing the ball accurately on kickoffs.I don't know how I can make it more clear.If Aguayo somehow loses his touch and can't make it in the NFL THEN the Bucs will have blown the pick. But to type they have already done so is just plain ignorant. We don't need to go all Red Board here, it's just opinion. In this case as in most we will have to wait and see. HOPEFULLY fans at least WANT to see the kid succeed. Even if it means they're not quite the NFL GM's they think they are. In the interest of maturity I will let the threadkiller guy have the last word, nothing more I can type on this subject. Hey, maybe THAT'S what the Hall of Fame Board is for...... mature opinions without personal attacks! YES!

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      What does once in a generation talent mean to you at kicker?  If 8/9 kickers hit over 90% of their total FG attempts in the NFL last season. What does a kicker need to hit to show himself as generational?  Do you expect him to exceed the other kickers in accuracy within 50 yards?  Should we expect a higher % of made FG between 50 and 55 yards over non-generational kickers?  If he's going to revolutionalize kick offs, should we expect to be around the top of the league next year in opponents average starting field position after a kick?  I keep seeing feelings from proponents of the trade. Still nothing that helps me understand why this move was an important one to make.

      That's just it. It wasn't made for you to understand. It was a decision by the Buccaneers for the team. Obviously they wanted Aquayo and they got him. I get that some message board posters are deeply offended. That much is obvious. I'm typing that I'm in line with what the Bucs did for pretty much the same reasons they did it. It's done and I'm glad it's done and there's not much to do about it either way.The Red Board is a fine place to go off about it over and over again. I think there's a few more threads on the subject today, calling Jason and the Bucs stupid, incompetent or whatever. But now the team has a kicker with tremendous skills and perhaps we can move on? I think we know by now the kid's going to be there opening day. That's a fact. And by the way? I'll be watching and hoping the Buccaneers kick the Falcons out of their own stadium. That's a fact too.

      Again, neither of us seems to be able to articulate what those tremendous skills are and how they will be different from the average skills displayed by current NFL kickers.  Despite your claim to understand and agree with our reasons for selecting him.Had we drafted Braxton Miller at 74, we could discuss how he will be different from our other receivers.  Then we could watch him and see if our evaluations of him as a prospect bear out.Do kickers improve over time?  It sounds like they do, so should we expect him to make 95% of his kicks next season?  Or maybe struggle a little and then improve to 95% in year 2?  Some seem to suggest this kid should walk in and be a top of the league kicker immediately. You are one of the posters I believe laments how there is not any real football discussion around here, but on this topic you just seem to want to table any serious discussions.

      tk, maybe you should give Garv a break because you're playing your part to kill some of the discussion with the rhetorical questions.  Its not impossible to say what one would expect from a "generational" kicker and so your repeated focus on the % comes across as making a point (not much differential value) rather than an honest question. From my perspective, Licht views our kicker as a long-term, top flight kicker and a CLUTCH performer.  Clutch performance is one thing that separates kickers (just like golfers) from great to good. Surely you can find examples in some of the other "great" kickers.  (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25361817/adam-vinatieri-continues-to-be-a-beast-in-the-clutch-sets-ot-record) Our kicker should end up being something like that or else the pick was too high.

      There you go. I believe, as do the Buccaneers obviously, that Aguayo will make a huge difference on special teams. Special teams are, after all, a third of the game! Scoring matters! Consistant scoring inside the 4o matters a lot, as does a strong leg capable of placing the ball accurately on kickoffs.I don't know how I can make it more clear.If Aguayo somehow loses his touch and can't make it in the NFL THEN the Bucs will have blown the pick. But to type they have already done so is just plain ignorant. We don't need to go all Red Board here, it's just opinion. In this case as in most we will have to wait and see. HOPEFULLY fans at least WANT to see the kid succeed. Even if it means they're not quite the NFL GM's they think they are. In the interest of maturity I will let the threadkiller guy have the last word, nothing more I can type on this subject. Hey, maybe THAT'S what the Hall of Fame Board is for...... mature opinions without personal attacks! YES!

      Is that what you feel like you are doing here?Some of us will continue to discuss the more intricate aspects of NFL kicking that I had previously ignored largely.  Clearly not understanding their importance.  Thank you for trying to help me better understand them.  I hope our continued discussions on the topic cause you no further angst. As you have said, what's done is done.

    • Anonymous

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      I guess I don’t understand what the problem with criticizing the pick. I like the player, but I personally am with Tog and Threadkiller that we drafted him too high and with too many picks. Threadkiller, you asked what it would take and I thought I put it on the red board but can't find it. Basically, it's consistently in the 90+ range on FGs, and near 100% on PATs (only Gostkowski was 100% on more than 50 attempts). If he can do something extra on kickoffs, that's a bonus. I do think PATs and the 25-yard line on touchbacks make very good kickers more valuable, but I'm not sure how much more valuable.

    • Anonymous

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      I guess I don't understand what the problem with criticizing the pick. I like the player, but I personally am with Tog and Threadkiller that we drafted him too high and with too many picks. Threadkiller, you asked what it would take and I thought I put it on the red board but can't find it. Basically, it's consistently in the 90+ range on FGs, and near 100% on PATs (only Gostkowski was 100% on more than 50 attempts). If he can do something extra on kickoffs, that's a bonus. I do think PATs and the 25-yard line on touchbacks make very good kickers more valuable, but I'm not sure how much more valuable.

      You know, truth be told? We'll all find out just how valuable Aguayo is or is not when he makes or misses clutch FG's to win or lose games. That's really what it's about, isn't it? Can a kicker make the FG with the game on the line? We know the kids got the leg and the history to do it in college. The rest, IMO, is in his head. The Buccaneers are betting he can handle it upstairs and I am certainly hoping he can too. Difference might be I'm a little more confident he can than some apparently are. And I think it's well worth the risk when others have made it clear that in their minds it is not.Connor Barth was cut today. Not surprising and most probably so he can get a better chance to make another team. Class act is Connor and I wish him well. Hopefully kicking somewhere in the AFC.

    • Anonymous

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      Of course, Garv – but what’s the point of a board if you can’t discuss stuff like this?

    • Anonymous

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      except for the “beat a dead horse” issue, nothing wrong with discussing it. The pick is certainly subject to criticism, but some of the arguments (on both sides) are over the top. If you accept that Licht (and Koetter) fall on the "house money" side of the equation, and Koetter said as much, then how much of a reach is it? However one  quantifies the level of reach, it certainly goes down if the guy lives up to the rep.  Kickers matter, as much as some hate to say so, and they matter more and more it seems (could be wrong) as games seem to always come down to the wire.  I could certainly be wrong about that, but this is off a betting site:

      In the last twenty years 46.12% of all the NFL regular season games were decided by 7 or less points and 23.59% of the football games were decided by 3 or less.

      if Licht is right about the guy's ability then he will be a positive force for the Bucs and probably for much longer than the player or players they could've drafted only because kicker tend to have the greater possibility of playing longer.I still see it as a reach, just not as crazy as many suggest.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 5954

      I guess I don't understand what the problem with criticizing the pick. I like the player, but I personally am with Tog and Threadkiller that we drafted him too high and with too many picks. Threadkiller, you asked what it would take and I thought I put it on the red board but can't find it. Basically, it's consistently in the 90+ range on FGs, and near 100% on PATs (only Gostkowski was 100% on more than 50 attempts). If he can do something extra on kickoffs, that's a bonus. I do think PATs and the 25-yard line on touchbacks make very good kickers more valuable, but I'm not sure how much more valuable.

      Those seem like reasonable goals assuming we don't make him take too many 50+ attempts.  I'm guessing natural fluctuations in that range cause much of the season to season fluctuation in % amongst even the best kickers.Which is why several of my posts have used a % on kicks less than 50 yards.  My personal expectation is for him to always be above 90% on those kicks, but I'm not sure if that is fair/realistic.  Which he did not make over his college career, but as you have pointed out, seems to improve for good kickers at the NFL level.I also agree with a theme i've seen from a few posters that there should be a clutch aspect as well.  We should expect high leverage situation kicks to be made always.  If he hits over 90%, but 2 of his misses are game winners from 48, I doubt we are too happy.Basically, the conditions for this kicker to "work out" for us continue to seem quite harsh and unforgiving.  We are packing on the pressure even more now.  If this kid performs as expected, I will be forced to tip my cap to him.

    • Anonymous

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      Basically, the conditions for this kicker to "work out" for us continue to seem quite harsh and unforgiving.  We are packing on the pressure even more now. 

      "We" must mean "some on the Red Board."  I doubt most fans obsess about this pick like some on the Red Board.  If he kicks for a decade and wins a few games on clutch kicks, makes a few pro Bowls, and, significantly, plays during a period of Bucs success . . he'll be in the Ring of Honor. No one will care that the Bucs traded up to get the guy. If the Bucs continue to suck, he could be the best Buc kicker of all time and  . . he'll be nearly forgotten. Most fans know Gramatica, but not Husted or Donald I.

    • Anonymous

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      Basically, the conditions for this kicker to "work out" for us continue to seem quite harsh and unforgiving.  We are packing on the pressure even more now. 

      "We" must mean "some on the Red Board."  I doubt most fans obsess about this pick like some on the Red Board.  If he kicks for a decade and wins a few games on clutch kicks, makes a few pro Bowls, and, significantly, plays during a period of Bucs success . . he'll be in the Ring of Honor. No one will care that the Bucs traded up to get the guy. If the Bucs continue to suck, he could be the best Buc kicker of all time and  . . he'll be nearly forgotten. Most fans know Gramatica, but not Husted or Donald I.

      Have not seen Iggy's name mentioned in a long, long, time.

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    • Anonymous

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      except for the "beat a dead horse" issue, nothing wrong with discussing it. The pick is certainly subject to criticism, but some of the arguments (on both sides) are over the top. If you accept that Licht (and Koetter) fall on the "house money" side of the equation, and Koetter said as much, then how much of a reach is it? However one  quantifies the level of reach, it certainly goes down if the guy lives up to the rep.  Kickers matter, as much as some hate to say so, and they matter more and more it seems (could be wrong) as games seem to always come down to the wire.  I could certainly be wrong about that, but this is off a betting site:

      In the last twenty years 46.12% of all the NFL regular season games were decided by 7 or less points and 23.59% of the football games were decided by 3 or less.

      if Licht is right about the guy's ability then he will be a positive force for the Bucs and probably for much longer than the player or players they could've drafted only because kicker tend to have the greater possibility of playing longer.I still see it as a reach, just not as crazy as many suggest.

      The issue with the "46% of NFL games are 1 score" is it's a logical fallacy.  Even below average NFL kickers hit ~80%.  Thus, the number of misses correlating with close games is very small.Take Connor Barth as an example.  From 2008-2015 (~6 full seasons) Connor Barth's misses resulted in 2 losses and 1 tie. Think about that for a second.  That means that Barth's missed field goals negatively impacted ~1/32 games he kicks in.  As well, you also have to consider that even if Barth was 100% on all field goals those games still may be losses as the other team has a chance to respond.I don't think there's any evidence that kickers matter significantly more now than before.  The average NFL kicker is making 94% of his XP attempts meaning that (an average) kicker is leaving 0.06 points on the field for every TD.  That means for every 16.6 kicks you'd expect 1 miss.  I don't think that's significant enough to warrant all this "kickers are more valuable" spiel.And I think it's a major issue. Good teams do two things: draft value and acquire picks.  Instead of a kicker, what if the Bucs had taken a run stuffing DT or a sam LB in the 2nd?  Those also would have been bad picks (although not as bad).  Value matters. And  Licht , for all his initial success, has demonstrated a pattern of "targeting" players and trading up.  While that seems to have worked with Marpet we know it does not work long term.  Look to Bryan Anger for the best example of how this will likely play out.  1) Bryan Anger was considered the best punter in a decade.2) The Jags severely overdrafted Anger.3) They missed on a number of contributors drafted right after: Russell Wilson, Olivier Vernon, Donald Stephenson, Demario Davis, Tyrone Crawford, etc.4) Anger turned out to be an average punter as probability dictated (regardless of where he was taken).  I won't be surprised if this happens with Agauyo because college accuracy DOES NOT correlate with NFL kicking success.

    • Anonymous

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      Pretty much agree with everything you said, Tog, except I think we need to see the rule changes play out. And while it's true the average ppg difference is small they can have an out-sized effect on games - we saw last year that Pittsburgh went for 2 at times because Tomlin was pulling his hair out over his kickers. 

    • Anonymous

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      The targeting and trading up mentality is as concerning to me as the hard break from traditional value systems. The combination of the two has been a real gut punch with this pick.  Had we acquired 10/11 picks, fine, use one to move up and target a guy you really like.  I believe that is what teams like the Patriots do. They pick more than 7 players even when they move up.  If you are combining quantity with a confidence in your own scouting, don’t have a problem with it nearly as much.  Just thinking you are going to pick 7 better players every year seems foolhardy.

    • Anonymous

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      My take on Licht (and Robinson, after watching the TN moves) is this – I think Licht has good instincts about players (at least in the draft). They have analytics people, but he seems somewhat old school in terms of approach. The good news is that I think he's done pretty good job picking players. And for what it's worth, I do give credit for "obvious" picks like Winston. For one thing, they are rarely obvious (I bet 30-40% of the NFL teams would have gone a different direction, and we know that Dirk and the QB coach rated MM highly). And that also works the other way - Gaines Adams was obvious. The bad news is I think that he "falls in love" with guys. That prevents him from working the board more actively. It does not surprise me that we've only traded back once since he's been here. On balance, I like him. It remains to be seen how things work with FA, but I do think it's fairly obvious based on who we picked up before that Lovie had a heavy hand in that role. This is the first year I really put the FA results on Licht. 

    • Anonymous

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      Damn, I really love a mature civil discussion. Thanks guys.

    • Anonymous

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      Pretty much agree with everything you said, Tog, except I think we need to see the rule changes play out. And while it's true the average ppg difference is small they can have an out-sized effect on games - we saw last year that Pittsburgh went for 2 at times because Tomlin was pulling his hair out over his kickers.

      I agree with seeing the rules changes play out.  But it is a (relatively) small change in kickoffs and it's very unlikely it radically changes how valuable kickers are.  Mortar kicks could become a very viable strategy.  But if we assume that a mortar kicks starts at the 20 (vs. 25 for touchback) that's a 3% drop in drive success.  Over a season that's significant although not radically so.  But we have no idea if mortar kicks are feasible and my guess is that most of the time you will not see them even if they are feasible.  Especially against teams with good returners.  I think it's bad planning to assign extra value to a kicker based on so many unknowns with a limited upside.And I disagree that missed XP have an outsized effect.  It's just happening so rarely to have it influence decision making. Even the Steelers were making XPs at league average.  I understood Tomlin's going for 2 as recognizing the statistical advantage in doing so.

    • Anonymous

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      Actually I was wrong – confused his frustration with Scobee with the extra-points. But looking back he was just going with his “gut.” I was thinking of the Baltimore game where Scobee missed two kicks in a game they lost in overtime and Tomlin bypassed 2 other chances to take kicks because he didn't believe Scobee gave them a better chance than going for it. They basically lost the game because they failed on 4th down and Tucker kicked a FG to win it for the Ravens.

    • Anonymous

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      Examples:The team drafts Vernon Hargeaves & Ryan Smith in the 2016 draft.They signed Brent Grimes two a  two year deal with $7 million guaranteed (essentially a one year deal) They signed Josh Robinson to a one year dealAlterraun Verner is in the last year of guaranteed money on his current dealJohnthan Banks is in the final year of his rookie contract.Now the fun begins....the way the team has leveraged the CB group is an interesting dynamic and a stroke of brilliance, that will play out on the field in 2016. The team has pitted Grimes and Verner against one another to see which veteran will be with the team in 2017 as the elder statements of the group based on their level of play this upcoming season while also crafting Grimes contract to be at the same threshold as Verners in 2017 $6.5 million.Next the team signed Robinson to a one year deal and sized him up next to Banks. Both have a year to prove themselves and see if they can warrant a second contract to stay in Tampa.Now comes the rookies Hargreaves and Smith. The future of the group. The team has solidified the youth portion with these two and they will push one another more so then the the other four previously mentioned players. So i get why some fans scratch their heads. But there is more to drafting then what is strictly on the surface or in this case BPA. [/b]

      Good overall synopsis of the situation although it appears Smith is likely to end up as a Safety. IMHO, if Verner's not starting in the opener he will not be on the roster for the opener.

    • Anonymous

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      From my perspective, Licht views our kicker as a long-term, top flight kicker and a CLUTCH performer.  Clutch performance is one thing that separates kickers (just like golfers) from great to good. Surely you can find examples in some of the other "great" kickers.  (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25361817/adam-vinatieri-continues-to-be-a-beast-in-the-clutch-sets-ot-record) Our kicker should end up being something like that or else the pick was too high.

      While I have some reservations with the pick of a kicker...any kicker...because of the tendency of kickers to blow up with a single missed kick or so it appears, I can understand the logic of the Bucs wanting to grab a guy for long term success. I think the Bucs are looking for consistency in the kicking game and by that I mean not having to seek out a kicker every year. Even this year I don't think Barth was any lock over Patrick Murray. Barth seems to have not completely sold the NFL on his abilities despite what appear to be pretty good stats.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 357

      I have long missed the old Board and stopped coming here because I wasn’t seeing any activity.  I am ALL FOR Yucc’s suggestion of coming back to the Board and participating in making it what we all want it to be, primarily, as it once was.I'm in!!!

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4407

      except for the "beat a dead horse" issue, nothing wrong with discussing it. The pick is certainly subject to criticism, but some of the arguments (on both sides) are over the top. If you accept that Licht (and Koetter) fall on the "house money" side of the equation, and Koetter said as much, then how much of a reach is it? However one  quantifies the level of reach, it certainly goes down if the guy lives up to the rep.  Kickers matter, as much as some hate to say so, and they matter more and more it seems (could be wrong) as games seem to always come down to the wire.  I could certainly be wrong about that, but this is off a betting site:

      In the last twenty years 46.12% of all the NFL regular season games were decided by 7 or less points and 23.59% of the football games were decided by 3 or less.

      if Licht is right about the guy's ability then he will be a positive force for the Bucs and probably for much longer than the player or players they could've drafted only because kicker tend to have the greater possibility of playing longer.I still see it as a reach, just not as crazy as many suggest.

      The issue with the "46% of NFL games are 1 score" is it's a logical fallacy.  Even below average NFL kickers hit ~80%.  Thus, the number of misses correlating with close games is very small.Take Connor Barth as an example.  From 2008-2015 (~6 full seasons) Connor Barth's misses resulted in 2 losses and 1 tie. Think about that for a second.  That means that Barth's missed field goals negatively impacted ~1/32 games he kicks in.  As well, you also have to consider that even if Barth was 100% on all field goals those games still may be losses as the other team has a chance to respond.I don't think there's any evidence that kickers matter significantly more now than before.  The average NFL kicker is making 94% of his XP attempts meaning that (an average) kicker is leaving 0.06 points on the field for every TD.  That means for every 16.6 kicks you'd expect 1 miss.  I don't think that's significant enough to warrant all this "kickers are more valuable" spiel.And I think it's a major issue. Good teams do two things: draft value and acquire picks.  Instead of a kicker, what if the Bucs had taken a run stuffing DT or a sam LB in the 2nd?  Those also would have been bad picks (although not as bad).  Value matters. And  Licht , for all his initial success, has demonstrated a pattern of "targeting" players and trading up.  While that seems to have worked with Marpet we know it does not work long term.  Look to Bryan Anger for the best example of how this will likely play out.  1) Bryan Anger was considered the best punter in a decade.2) The Jags severely overdrafted Anger.3) They missed on a number of contributors drafted right after: Russell Wilson, Olivier Vernon, Donald Stephenson, Demario Davis, Tyrone Crawford, etc.4) Anger turned out to be an average punter as probability dictated (regardless of where he was taken).  I won't be surprised if this happens with Agauyo because college accuracy DOES NOT correlate with NFL kicking success.

      My problem with your opinion is the rules for kickers dramatically changed last season with the move back of the extra point and only 5 teams or <16% made them all.  On the surface that (1) single point seems little and it is if the assertion is a one point loss versus a 1 point victory.The problem increases when a 3 point margin is changed to a 4 point margin. That changes game strategy dramatically.  Far less pressure when all you need is a FG in the closing minutes to Tie the game but 4 points means you have to score a TD.How valuable is that extra point when a team scores that 6 points but misses that extra point?That did indeed happen more than once last season in NFL games.Conventional wisdom says you don't take a kicker until the 3rd round which in fact was actually where the pick would have been had it not been for the extra 4th that was added to move up to the 59th pick in the 2nd round.  The Bucs used their 2nd rounder for Spence.My question is does "Conventional wisdom" still prevail with the rule change?How valuable is it to a team to draft a player that at this time seems to be a player that the Bucs will have 10-15 years?  You draft a good kicker and it is one less headache come draft or free agent time every year. And what truly was the price?    an extra 4th round pick?    Last year critics of Winston( not considering any off field stuff) claimed that Winston was an interception machine that would throw at least 25-30 interceptions his first year while throwing for considerably less TD's. This criticism was entirely based on Winston's last season at FSU.The same thing is going on with Aguayo when some take the 5 misses from >40 yards last season.  21/26 80.77%  Ignored is Roberto going 48-52 the previous 2 years 92.3 %.Again never missing an extra point or a kick from<40 yards in 3 years looks damn good to me.49 for 49 looks pretty special.  Oh and college kicking is indeed different than the Pro game as the hash marks are wider in CFB than the NFL so from an angle perspective FG's should be a bit easier.

    • Anonymous

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      I have long missed the old Board and stopped coming here because I wasn't seeing any activity.  I am ALL FOR Yucc's suggestion of coming back to the Board and participating in making it what we all want it to be, primarily, as it once was.I'm in!!!

      There he is! Welcome back Joe! Look forward to hearing from you. So.... the draft and the 2016 Buccaneers? What do you think man?

    • Anonymous

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      Hey Garv!  Glad to be back!!  I have missed all you guys!I think we had another excellent draft!  Whatever you think about our drafting of Aguayo with a 2nd round pick, at the end of the day, it was good to add him.  Keeping in mind that getting two starters in a draft makes it a good draft, with the selection of VH3 and Spence, I believe we have accomplished that, although probably not from the start of the season.  When you add Aguayo and his potential, we had a good draft right there.  However, we also added some additional good pieces which may very well include a couple of others who have the potential to develop into starters in a year or two.  If that happens, this draft could be as good as last year's or maybe even better.As to the 2016 Bucs, I believe they are on their way!!  I fully expect them to contend for the Division Championship all the way to the end of the season!  I also expect a winning record of about 9-7!!We're baaaaaaaccckkkk!!!

    • Anonymous

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      Welcome back Joe. Nice to have some quality, knowledgeable posters back. This place USED to be great.

    • Anonymous

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      Hey Garv!  Glad to be back!!  I have missed all you guys!I think we had another excellent draft!  Whatever you think about our drafting of Aguayo with a 2nd round pick, at the end of the day, it was good to add him.  Keeping in mind that getting two starters in a draft makes it a good draft, with the selection of VH3 and Spence, I believe we have accomplished that, although probably not from the start of the season.  When you add Aguayo and his potential, we had a good draft right there.  However, we also added some additional good pieces which may very well include a couple of others who have the potential to develop into starters in a year or two.  If that happens, this draft could be as good as last year's or maybe even better.As to the 2016 Bucs, I believe they are on their way!!  I fully expect them to contend for the Division Championship all the way to the end of the season!  I also expect a winning record of about 9-7!!We're baaaaaaaccckkkk!!!

      I certainly think the Buccaneers are on the way back. I agree with your thoughts on this year's draft but can't see how it can top last year's. Not only did the Bucs get four starters and potential Pro Bowl players in 2015 but we got the most important piece of all, our franchise QB! Hard to top THAT!I also agree that it's doable to be competing for the South in December. People keep mentioning how difficult the schedule is but seem to be forgetting one thing. ALL the teams in the South have a tough schedule and have to play seach other twice. So...... why NOT?

    • Anonymous

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      Yeah, I simply do not buy the “tough schedule” stuff, especially in May. So much changes year to year and we have no idea how the teams we are scheduled to play end up come Sept. I (as usual) expect the Bucs to be fighting for playoff spot THIS year and expect lots of battles with Newton and the Panthers for many, many years. Go Bucs!

    • Anonymous

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      Yeah, I simply do not buy the "tough schedule" stuff, especially in May. So much changes year to year and we have no idea how the teams we are scheduled to play end up come Sept. I (as usual) expect the Bucs to be fighting for playoff spot THIS year and expect lots of battles with Newton and the Panthers for many, many years. Go Bucs!

      Sure. And given the talented youth on the Buccaneers I would not trade places with ANY team in the South for years to come. Obviously the Panthers are the team to beat now but watch out, the Buccaneers are gaining on them. Of couse, the damn injuries can plague any team any time so there are no sure things. But as Gru said years ago, the future's so bright you gotta wear shades!

    • Anonymous

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      Yeah, I simply do not buy the "tough schedule" stuff, especially in May. So much changes year to year and we have no idea how the teams we are scheduled to play end up come Sept. I (as usual) expect the Bucs to be fighting for playoff spot THIS year and expect lots of battles with Newton and the Panthers for many, many years. Go Bucs!

      Sure. And given the talented youth on the Buccaneers I would not trade places with ANY team in the South for years to come. Obviously the Panthers are the team to beat now but watch out, the Buccaneers are gaining on them. Of couse, the damn injuries can plague any team any time so there are no sure things. But as Gru said years ago, the future's so bright you gotta wear shades!Sadly, he was quite wrong at the time. Now however, I would agree with that sentiment

    • Anonymous

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      Welcome back Joe!

    • Anonymous

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      Yeah, I simply do not buy the "tough schedule" stuff, especially in May. So much changes year to year and we have no idea how the teams we are scheduled to play end up come Sept. I (as usual) expect the Bucs to be fighting for playoff spot THIS year and expect lots of battles with Newton and the Panthers for many, many years. Go Bucs!

      Sure. And given the talented youth on the Buccaneers I would not trade places with ANY team in the South for years to come. Obviously the Panthers are the team to beat now but watch out, the Buccaneers are gaining on them. Of couse, the damn injuries can plague any team any time so there are no sure things. But as Gru said years ago, the future's so bright you gotta wear shades!

      I heard Bill Barnwell on a podcast say that fans typically see their own team's moves in an optimistic light, so that every hole filled is a hole filled well.I think in the case of a Buc fans it's the opposite. We see an abundance of holes and often see our opponents' in the best light. This is why we always "fear" the schedule. 2005 was one of my favorite examples - we supposedly had a super tough start:@MN - playoff team from '04, had the "Williams Wall." Bills - Bills had won 6 of their last 7 to finish 9-7 in 2004. They were supposed to make "the leap." @GB - 10-6 playoff team in '04.Caddy ran roughshod over all 3, and we instead of hoping to survive, we started 3-0. MN finished 9-7, but the Bills (5 wins), and GB (4 wins) struggled.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1312

      Yeah, I simply do not buy the "tough schedule" stuff, especially in May. So much changes year to year and we have no idea how the teams we are scheduled to play end up come Sept. I (as usual) expect the Bucs to be fighting for playoff spot THIS year and expect lots of battles with Newton and the Panthers for many, many years. Go Bucs!

      Sure. And given the talented youth on the Buccaneers I would not trade places with ANY team in the South for years to come. Obviously the Panthers are the team to beat now but watch out, the Buccaneers are gaining on them. Of couse, the damn injuries can plague any team any time so there are no sure things. But as Gru said years ago, the future's so bright you gotta wear shades!

      I heard Bill Barnwell on a podcast say that fans typically see their own team's moves in an optimistic light, so that every hole filled is a hole filled well.I think in the case of a Buc fans it's the opposite. We see an abundance of holes and often see our opponents' in the best light. This is why we always "fear" the schedule. 2005 was one of my favorite examples - we supposedly had a super tough start:@MN - playoff team from '04, had the "Williams Wall." Bills - Bills had won 6 of their last 7 to finish 9-7 in 2004. They were supposed to make "the leap." @GB - 10-6 playoff team in '04.Caddy ran roughshod over all 3, and we instead of hoping to survive, we started 3-0. MN finished 9-7, but the Bills (5 wins), and GB (4 wins) struggled.

      Egg zacly. Ya just never know. Im hoping for truly competitive games to watch this year... hopefully without the heartbreak when the clock strikes 00

    • Anonymous

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      1) Nice to see an adult conversation – Maybe we should take this board back2) When people compare Aguayo to past kickers, it kind of like (not as drastic though) comparing a QB from the run first era to modern QB's. The rule changes in kicking are significant and don't be shocked if there are even more.  Also, don't be surprised if as a result of these rules, the "value" of kickers in future drafts increases as teams realize just how much more import they are.3) When I think of the pick and cost, I ask myself a simple question.  Week 16, game tied, 1 second left on the clock.  Bucs have the ball and are about to attempt a 40yd FG for the win.  A win means playoffs; a loss mean the end of season.  Who do you want kicking the ball and are you really all that concerned now about that extra 4th round pick?

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1324

      1) Nice to see an adult conversation - Maybe we should take this board back2) When people compare Aguayo to past kickers, it kind of like (not as drastic though) comparing a QB from the run first era to modern QB's. The rule changes in kicking are significant and don't be shocked if there are even more.  Also, don't be surprised if as a result of these rules, the "value" of kickers in future drafts increases as teams realize just how much more import they are.3) When I think of the pick and cost, I ask myself a simple question.  Week 16, game tied, 1 second left on the clock.  Bucs have the ball and are about to attempt a 40yd FG for the win.  A win means playoffs; a loss mean the end of season.  Who do you want kicking the ball and are you really all that concerned now about that extra 4th round pick?

      Our guy! Look, the Buccaneers are thinking ahead with the primary goal to win football games and to get back into the playoffs where the party really starts. Kickers and special teams have a lot to do with the outcomes of most games. And don't you think the opposition is going to defend differently knowing the shorter field as a result of having a great FG kicker? Tom Brady has won hwo many Super Bowls, been to how many more? I think you'll find much of what got him there was on pressure kicks from great kickers.

    • Anonymous

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      1) Nice to see an adult conversation - Maybe we should take this board back2) When people compare Aguayo to past kickers, it kind of like (not as drastic though) comparing a QB from the run first era to modern QB's. The rule changes in kicking are significant and don't be shocked if there are even more.  Also, don't be surprised if as a result of these rules, the "value" of kickers in future drafts increases as teams realize just how much more import they are.3) When I think of the pick and cost, I ask myself a simple question.  Week 16, game tied, 1 second left on the clock.  Bucs have the ball and are about to attempt a 40yd FG for the win.  A win means playoffs; a loss mean the end of season.  Who do you want kicking the ball and are you really all that concerned now about that extra 4th round pick?

      Our guy! Look, the Buccaneers are thinking ahead with the primary goal to win football games and to get back into the playoffs where the party really starts. Kickers and special teams have a lot to do with the outcomes of most games. And don't you think the opposition is going to defend differently knowing the shorter field as a result of having a great FG kicker? Tom Brady has won hwo many Super Bowls, been to how many more? I think you'll find much of what got him there was on pressure kicks from great kickers.

      Absolutely! How many times in those games did you hear people say,  Brady only has 1 minute and has to drive 80 yards for a TD compared to Brady has 1 minute and has to drive 50 yards for the FG.  Because they just knew the kicker would nail it.  A great kicker is a reliable kicker. Brady has one.  Now I hope we do too.

    • dalaca

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      change is never easyPR is a business, so I assume they do what's best for their business. They don't owe anybody anything.  Customers vote with their clicks.  If collecting $10 a month from a handful was better for their business than the current set up, I presume they'd go right back.

      BINGO............ CK gets itthis is a business like any other business..........it's not a social hangout.  time is money and I'm sure the powers that be here understand that it is smarter to spend time digging for news to publish than hold the hands of a bunch freaks trying to keep their club together.  it just makes more business sense for them to be professional sports reporters.Message boards are Dying.  they are a thing of the past.  I understood and appreciated that back in the day when I was the Lead Mod on the Bucs Official Board.  Most team boards are run by amatuers now, as the NFL teams saw it was a waste of recsources and time for them.

      While I agree that message boards are not as busy as they used to be, it would be disappointing to see them go away completely. (Of course, I still miss text-only BBS dial-ups. :) )What I am curious about is what are replacing them?I can see why older systems died out. AOL Chat Roons and BBS sites were shut out when the Internet made subscription sites obsolete, and IRC and NNTP required a level of knowledge that a number of people didn't have. (I am quite pleased that I no longer need to UUENCODE / UUDECODE pics.)What I can't really see is what has come along to replace Chat Boards.

    • Anonymous

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      Hello fellas.

    • Anonymous

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      Hello fellas.

      Welcome to the HoF board.  New posters are always welcome!

    • Anonymous

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      Hello fellas.

      Welcome to the HoF board.  New posters are always welcome!

      ^5!!!

    • Anonymous

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      3) When I think of the pick and cost, I ask myself a simple question.  Week 16, game tied, 1 second left on the clock.  Bucs have the ball and are about to attempt a 40yd FG for the win.  A win means playoffs; a loss mean the end of season.  Who do you want kicking the ball and are you really all that concerned now about that extra 4th round pick?

      BOOM!

    • Anonymous

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      3) When I think of the pick and cost, I ask myself a simple question.  Week 16, game tied, 1 second left on the clock.  Bucs have the ball and are about to attempt a 40yd FG for the win.  A win means playoffs; a loss mean the end of season.  Who do you want kicking the ball and are you really all that concerned now about that extra 4th round pick?

      i had no problem with Barth making that kick.  But I also have no problem with aguayo.  I think tog had an excellent write up about the kicker - I agree with it.  But I guess I also don't care.  We got the guy that our GM thinks is important.  The franchise isn't gonna sink or swim with this one pick, but it will with the GMs vision. (And Winston of course).  I'd have loved to use the aguayo picks on DL depth, S, whatever.  But picks are just flyers - you never know. 

    • Anonymous

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      Absolutely! How many times in those games did you hear people say,  Brady only has 1 minute and has to drive 80 yards for a TD compared to Brady has 1 minute and has to drive 50 yards for the FG.  Because they just knew the kicker would nail it.  A great kicker is a reliable kicker. Brady has one.  Now I hope we do too.

      are you talking score of the game, or confidence in a kicker?

    • Anonymous

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      Absolutely! How many times in those games did you hear people say,  Brady only has 1 minute and has to drive 80 yards for a TD compared to Brady has 1 minute and has to drive 50 yards for the FG.  Because they just knew the kicker would nail it.  A great kicker is a reliable kicker. Brady has one.  Now I hope we do too.

      are you talking score of the game, or confidence in a kicker?

      I would say both...  Confidence in a kicker leads to changing a tying score to a TD pass as the defense  tends to relax on such plays as appearing to be settling for a FG.I remember well a UF vs Miami game at Tampa Stadium where Bernie Kosar appeared to be lining up for the winning FG in the closing seconds against UF only to throw a TD pass instead. Amazing game as UM scored 14 points in about 41 seconds after UF took the lead.  2 TDS in 11 seconds!Video of that incredible finish:http://collegefootballbelt.com/1984/1984%20Game%20Summaries/Miami,%20FLA%20vs%20Florida.htm

    • Anonymous

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      Absolutely! How many times in those games did you hear people say,  Brady only has 1 minute and has to drive 80 yards for a TD compared to Brady has 1 minute and has to drive 50 yards for the FG.  Because they just knew the kicker would nail it.  A great kicker is a reliable kicker. Brady has one.  Now I hope we do too.

      are you talking score of the game, or confidence in a kicker?

      Confidence in the kicker. 

    • Anonymous

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      Hello fellas.

      Welcome to the HoF board.  New posters are always welcome!

      On target and in good humor - nice thought freddy.

    • Anonymous

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      Well this seemed to fizzle out fast…….If we want this board to be active and free of posters who just create new accounts to troll, we can’t just wait for the other guy to start posting. Especially Yuccaneers….come on man, you’re slacking!  ;D ;D ;D

    • Anonymous

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      Hello fellas.

      Welcome to the HoF board.  New posters are always welcome!

      On target and in good humor - nice thought freddy.

      I hope Mark still knows that I love him!

    • Anonymous

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      No real work got in the way. Should have the defensive tackles done tomorrow. Hopefully others start posting too. Nice to have some banter over a multitude of different topics and different though processes on the team, players, coaches and schemes.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1875

      Hello fellas.

      Welcome to the HoF board.  New posters are always welcome!

      On target and in good humor - nice thought freddy.

      I hope Mark still knows that I love him!

      Oh hell, I was hoping he might add something in the way of an Insider tip to the "Hall of Fame Board" - maybe letter.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 357

      Well this seemed to fizzle out fast.......If we want this board to be active and free of posters who just create new accounts to troll, we can't just wait for the other guy to start posting. Especially Yuccaneers....come on man, you're slacking!  ;D ;D ;D

      You're right Freddy. If we want this Board to be what it once was, we ALL have to contribute.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1875

      Well this seemed to fizzle out fast.......If we want this board to be active and free of posters who just create new accounts to troll, we can't just wait for the other guy to start posting. Especially Yuccaneers....come on man, you're slacking!  ;D ;D ;D

      You're right Freddy. If we want this Board to be what it once was, we ALL have to contribute.

      Good to see you my friend.  I am here offering way to many thoughts when so many minds are available, and I do prefer reading the opinions of others.  But it appears a solid core is ready to remake this board, and I am in...

    • Anonymous

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      a place for us Hall of Famers to hang out…..but it seems quiet

    • Garv

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      Post count: 527

      Quiet NO MAS! Some loud posters are returning……. so I’m sold.

      Looking forward to a great season as the young Buccaneers continue to grow and improve. And if you haven’t gotten to the new Ray Jay yet, do it. The upgrades are incredible. It really IS a new day in Tampa Bay!

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

      • Anonymous

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        It really had a new feel to it (stadium), that’s for sure. I opted to move from the lower level endzones to upper level and will be in nosebleeds for at least this season, and to see it from up there, I felt I was in Amalie or an NBA arena like Amway (Olando) with all the lights (ribbon circling the stadium).  I wonder how different it’ll be during day games –   USF Bulls games – they’ll be lucky to have access to the boards as well.

    • Pewter Pirate

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      No real work got in the way. Should have the defensive tackles done tomorrow. Hopefully others start posting too. Nice to have some banter over a multitude of different topics and different though processes on the team, players, coaches and schemes.

       

    • Anonymous

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      Not engaging much myself as I’ve gotten burned out by the Bucs. I moved here in ’09, dove right in to season tickets after following the team long distance from Afghanistan, Europe and a variety of cities around the country.

      I bought into Morris, Schiano, Smith – so now the guy the Glazers pick (who happens to be from my Alma Mater) has no experience and is supposed to fix the team.

      I’ve become skeptical once Lovie was fired.  Four head coaches in six seasons.  Makes you want to check out.

    • Garv

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      Post count: 527

      Not engaging much myself as I’ve gotten burned out by the Bucs. I moved here in ’09, dove right in to season tickets after following the team long distance from Afghanistan, Europe and a variety of cities around the country. I bought into Morris, Schiano, Smith – so now the guy the Glazers pick (who happens to be from my Alma Mater) has no experience and is supposed to fix the team. I’ve become skeptical once Lovie was fired. Four head coaches in six seasons. Makes you want to check out.

      Seriously? You bought into Morris, Schiano and Lovie but can’t get behind Dirk Koetter because of his lack of experience? He has a HELL of a lot more experience than Morris or Schiano, if you’re talking about being a sucessful OC at the NFL level. And you’re skeptical because LOVIE was fired? LOL Perhaps you “checked out” long ago when it comes to following the Buccaneers because none of your post makes a lick of sense.

      Look at this year’s Buccaneer team and tell us they’re not on the way up instead of down, rising instead of being mired in mediocrity or worse. Come on man.

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • xbucsx_4_xevax

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      lol

    • freddy

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      Post count: 956

      <p style=”text-align: left;”>Maybe its time  the HoF board to ride off into the sunset. Maybe @visualrealm can confirm if there are even any “membership” requirements?</p>

    • dbucfan

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      No doubt – there is no sense in keeping this board running – can’t remember last time I saw a significant scoop or Scott, Mark of others chat.  I think the site is done… unfortunate.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4188

      I recall when PR was a subscription service and I paid through 2020, I was a little annoyed that they’d change the terms of service of their subscription. Possibly this HoF forum was a way to appease subscribers who felt they were not treated fairly with the change.

    • Garv

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      Post count: 527

      Maybe the HOF Board will be revived during the off-season when the building of a team that can actually win and entertain at home, compete for the playoffs, commences? It does seem we get better insight from knowledgeable posters and PR writers then. Right now there is nothing but UGH! to post about.

      In recent years it ends up I actually seem to enjoy the off-season more than the season. There’s HOPE! Hope is better than the constant LOSING this Buccaneer team gives it’s best fans year after year after year.

      We need to do one of our off-season lunches as well. I miss those Uncle Stan.

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • dbucfan

      Participant
      Post count: 82

      Agree with the “in recent years” comment.  Remember when the PR crew was active with real insider info… that is whey there was value to this board.  The ownership and staff has decided to run portion of the site (and now perhaps the entire site) to simply report what has handled.  Just like the Tribune

       

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      ……….THE OFF-SEASON! PLEASE!

      Let’s bring it back with the help of those already here but quiet for awhile. Might have to find Buc Joe too, know he’s on Twitter.

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • Mark Cook

      Participant
      Post count: 2419

      Howdy friends.

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      Howdy friends.

      Hello. Like you never left Mark. Hell, you’re everywhere these days!

      Lots to be positive about these days and the next two months could make the Buccaneers a  serious threat to win the South as soon as next season. YES!

       

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • Rick

      Participant
      Post count: 3

      There’s this really cool Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1993 Team Autograph football for auction that I’m keeping my eye on, what do you guys think?

       

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/182563643943?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      Who ARE these Anonymous posters anyway? Nevermind, was just on page one?

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      The question now should be asked. What are ALL these boards for? The comments on the news stories are more relevant and focused on what I assume we want to be focused on in the first place, Buccaneer football. Used to be a great place to share opinions on Buccaneer football and have some fun. It isn’t anymore. The Red Board seems to be mostly political and full (relative term) of the same people hating on each other.

      And you know what’s REALLY strange? We’re finally at a place where there’s legitimate hope as far as the Bucs go. Certainly have the best QB this team has ever had, by far. The best offense (granted on paper so far) this team has ever put on the field. Finally we have a HC and GM we can get behind.

      And yet here? Flat. And there ARE other options doing a lot better.

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • Pewter Pirate

      Participant
      Post count: 1695

      Legitimate hope, yesterday was fun to watch

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      There’d have to be effort from PR to get this board active again. I don’t even check it anymore unfortunately.

    • cheveliar

      Participant
      Post count: 980

      I mentioned this very topic on the Red Board. One guy said, “Chev you have romanticized the interaction on the board. This place has never been close.” Of course I responded by telling of the G2G’s and getting to know all you guys. I don’t think Scott and Mark are wanting to do it more interactive. Nor do the fans on the board now want to do it. Of course if you were here back in the day, before Chammps at International Mall was closed, you knew that was our spot. I’m always down to hang with some of my fellow fans. If you guys pull something together let me know.

      • Garv

        Participant
        Post count: 527

        Chev! How are you? Loved the old G2G’s at Chammps, good times. Ever hear from Uncle Stan? The only time I hear his name these days is Scott playing him on the PR podcast. Don’t use the Red Board much, better to comment on the stories from time to time and I’ve moved on to the Stick Carriers FB page. Trouble is, it’s getting full of more nonsense every damn day.

        Go Bucs!

        “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
        as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • cheveliar

      Participant
      Post count: 980

      I’m good Garv. You know me, just chilling dawg. We need to find another spot to hang. I have not heard from Unc. Quite frankly I’m a little worried.

      • PreferNFL

        Participant
        Post count: 43

        Unc is hanging in there. :)

    • SCLOBERNOCKER

      Participant
      Post count: 832

      Sooo, can only the old timers get on this board, or is it open to everyone now? Not that it matters cause its pretty dead. Like Tog, I barely look.

      We should bring it back. Anyone wanna start a shirt order?

      (too soon?)

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      Ed! Another voice from the past. Glad to hear Uncle Stan is OK. Not sure if I “get” PR mocking him on their podcast. On one hand his name is heard and his opinion as voice by Scott is actually VERY legitimate. FAR too much three way babbling about crap nobody cares about. Probably about 15 minutes out of 30 about Buccaneer football. But mocking Stan for being old? Old and loyal to a fault to Pewter Report? That’s bullshit and the “joke” was old months ago IMO.

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      I dunno Garv I think its pretty funny. Although I’ve never met Stan, I do take it as PR honoring him in a humorous way. Much the same way Sikkema is made fun of for his hair. What it comes across to me is making fun of a friend.

      As for the lack of Bucs talk? 100% agree.

      • Garv

        Participant
        Post count: 527

        I wonder if Stan does? Or does it matter to PR one way or the other? Trevor is right there with a say in the matter, it’s different though just as old.
        Look, I listen to the podcast but it could be better. As it is with two instead of three participants. Trevor, IMO, is the most prepared and should always be a part of it. This coming from a listener who recently qualified for Medicare! LOL

        “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
        as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • BucHarbour

      Participant
      Post count: 195

      These boards have definitely died down a lot. As talented as Winston is, he’s a very polarizing player and draft pick. One look at the stands and you can see the reflection there. If the Bucs end up firing Koetter and bringing Gruden back, I think this place will pick back up, as there will be true interest again.

      Sure hope Uncle Stan is OK, as Ed stated. Met Unc, Prefer, and Chev at one of the Orlando training camp get togethers back around 2003 or 2004. Never managed to make it to the ones at Champps, but had wanted to. I think the last 8, going on 9, seasons has taken a lot out of the fan base. Firing Gruden, elevating Morris, and dumping Brooks, all in one off-season, really set this franchise back a lot.

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      HAD to comment on the PR podcast once again. Yesterday’s was the worst one yet. Obviously not edited before sending to iTunes, full of interruptions (Mark’s forte and poor attempt at humor) and consisting of about i5 minutes out of 45 of Buccaneer talk and content. Please. Three is a crowd. Let Scott and Trevor do the talking, shorten the podcast to 30 minutes tops, 20 if there’s nothing relevant to say. Just stop with the BS. Annoying is the nicest way to describe what could be a could podcast in a field of a lot of good ones.
      PR has great writers and content, the place to go for everything Buccaneer football. The podcast is the WORST advertisement for that.

      You’re welcome.

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4188

      overall PR.com has pretty much hit rock bottom, hasn’t it? remember the days when a subscription got you a hard copy of the magazine – I recall spending a few bucks for several years of subscriptions only to find out they were going digital and not offering refunds on subscriptions paid – and this HoF board? Why have it – seems like very few even post in it.

    • Diehard Astheycome

      Participant
      Post count: 534

      does anyone remember when there was a discussion on the Insider Board about a special, Insiders-only board where Insiders would vote on membership?

      I don’t know what criteria is to be ranked by “ levels”. I do know that I know as much about this team and love them as much as anyone on the face of this earth. I’m just saying for future reference. Someone ever tries a “ members” or “ experts” level only club . Regardless of entry requirement. I have to be in :)

    • tampaspicer

      Participant
      Post count: 3484

      This entire forum keeps getting worse and worse.

    • Garv

      Participant
      Post count: 527

      Guess we’re all “participants” now. So why bother? Doesn’t really matter anymore I guess. Wonder why it’s still on the site?

      “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
      as always, GO BUCS!!!

      • ArmyBuc91

        Participant
        Post count: 54

        I can say I appreciate the OGs like yourself Garv, Chev, Unc Stan, Yuccaneers, Boid Fink and I’m missing more.

        Never got to live in the Tampa area. But looking forward to connecting to anyone in the San Antonio, TX area whos a buc fan

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