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    • Biggs3535

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      You can see it everywhere, from food to gas to building materials:

      https://apnews.com/article/business-prices-consumer-prices-7c0dceffdbd50a8b1b888af5d3b922ed?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP

      Prices for U.S. consumers jumped in June by the most in 13 years, evidence that a swift rebound in spending has run up against widespread supply shortages that have escalated the costs of many goods and services.

      Tuesday’s report from the Labor Department showed that consumer prices in June rose 0.9% from May and 5.4% over the past year — the sharpest 12-month inflation spike since August 2008. Excluding volatile oil and gas prices, so-called core inflation rose 4.5% in the past year, the largest increase since November 1991.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Inevitable when you print money and when inflation has been quite low for a decade…

      Typically you’d antipcate 3% inflation (thus a COLA) but from memory we’ve had some very low inflation until covid

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Post count: 6041

      #Retard(D)Party

      That’s what happens when you think you can uncontrollably spend.

      46th Resident (nursing home)

      2022 can’t get here soon enough!
      #trash(D)party

      • FireLicht2020

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        You’re a special kind of stupid

    • spartan

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      Post count: 1451

      You’re a special kind of stupid

      Yea but he is kinda right.

      From what I can tell the current inflation is driven by supply train problems caused by lockdowns and people not working, with an overabundance of Govt largesse with all the “stimulus” we have been getting of late. When you have more money than goods to buy it’s inevitable what is going to result.

      I ordered a new roof a few weeks back. We went metal with the aim of this being our last roof seeing as they last 40-50 years supposedly. More through luck than judgement we got our order in the business day before (a friday) metal prices went up 27% (the following monday). I doubt prices like that have even been factored into the latest inflation calculations yet so we can probably expect the next report to be even worse.

    • Roy

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      Post count: 4083

      If its a supply chain problem don’t you think that’s something that will sort itself out eventually?

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Correct it is temporary inflation imo but let’s actually blame the right person…

      Trump, for fucking up the pandemic in the first place

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Post count: 6041

      Correct it is temporary inflation imo but let’s actually blame the right person…

      Trump, for fucking up the pandemic in the first place

      Dream on, dum dum #2.

      LfBiden has been on a massive spending spree.

      • FireLicht2020

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        Post count: 7272

        Does someone wanna show this moron what Trump did to the deficit? Or how he botched the pandemic?

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Post count: 6041

      Does someone wanna show this moron what Trump did to the deficit? Or how he botched the pandemic?

      Breaking Tonight!
      The Trash(D)Party plans on pushing thru ANOTHER $3.5 Trillion spending spree.

      LoserfgtBiden
      InflationJoe

    • jbear

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      Post count: 4473

      Correct it is temporary inflation imo but let’s actually blame the right person…

      Trump, for fucking up the pandemic in the first place

      You’re ridiculous. I was just thinking about posting something, considering the mostly reasonable tone here, that Trump also bears some blame then you go and ruin my mood and make me reconsider…..it really is all dementia Joe’s fault.

      Seriously blaming Trump for the pandemic is completely dishonest. Maybe Joe would have us all still safety tucked in our basements but that’s not the same thing as blaming Trump for the pandemic.

      • FireLicht2020

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        Jesus…

        Mocking covid and vaccine, spreading disinformation… this is what made us in lockdown for so damn long.

        He ALSO gave a stimulus numnuts…

        You guys acting like Biden is giving handouts but the reality is that those handouts became a necessary evil because of people not taking the virus seriously

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      LfDem: blame Drumpf, but give fgtFauci a PASS (and elevate him to CultKing) despite him hiding the fact that the Virus probably came from His Lf Lab

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      If its a supply chain problem don’t you think that’s something that will sort itself out eventually?

      That’s one factor, yes. Do you think paying people to stay home waaaaaaay too long has something to do with that supply chain problem? Speaking of supply chains, how do you think the Biden administration’s actions on oil are affecting that supply? In a positive or negative way?

      Inflated housing costs – is that a good thing for a low-income person? Food? Gas?

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      I’m amazing at what you’re able to atribute to Biden after 6 months.

      It’s almost as if you don’t understand the delay that policy decision have in their intended or unintended outcomes

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      I’m amazing at what you’re able to atribute to Biden after 6 months.

      It’s almost as if you don’t understand the delay that policy decision have in their intended or unintended outcomes

      Biden extended the extra Federal Unemployment benefits through September of 2021. This directly led to less people looking for gainful employment, even though there was/is a huge surplus of available jobs. These aren’t opinions. The data is there for anyone to see. Some states are already declining those extra federal benefits, and those states have seen employment jump – and the Biden administration laughably claimed those “created” jobs as a win for his economic policy. The predictable useful idiots gobbled it up, as they will once job numbers go up in Sept/Oct after Daddy Government stops the extra Unemployment Benefits. It’s quite the racket. Give people money to stay home, and then when you take that money away – claim job creation.

      And if you don’t think this administration’s actions on oil have affected the daily price, I’m not sure what to tell you Mr. Mayor. I’m not sure how things work in the metropolis of Cluelessville, but words/actions from the President of the United States of America make things move in that department. These actions cost citizens at the pump, grocery store, and damn near any other good they buy – not to mention the potential $15B taxpayers are on the hook for Biden’s cancellation of the Keystone Pipeline.

    • jbear

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      Post count: 4473

      Jesus…

      Mocking covid and vaccine, spreading disinformation… this is what made us in lockdown for so damn long.

      He ALSO gave a stimulus numnuts…

      You guys acting like Biden is giving handouts but the reality is that those handouts became a necessary evil because of people not taking the virus seriously

      He’s kicking Trumps insane pandemic spending up several notches…from bad to worse. Pretty simple.

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      If unemployment is more appealing than the job you’re offering maybe it’s time to rethink your value proposition and take some ownership?

      The right is always blaming government and has given up on personal responsibility.

      Having said that, I do agree that extending the benefits is a mistake (gasp). Because I’m not some Biden nut-humper…

      However I do not think those extended unemployment dollars are causing this temporary inflation nearly as much as you are insinuating…

      Regarding oil… I’m not gonna debate the stupidity of the argument that Biden in 6 months is responsible for the rise in oil prices, unless of course you’re crediting him for driving up demand by solving our covid dilemma?

      Otherwise, presidents don’t have much influence on the price of oil.

    • spartan

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      Post count: 1451

      If unemployment is more appealing than the job you’re offering maybe it’s time to rethink your value proposition and take some ownership?

      When the Govt is paying an additional $600 A WEEK on top of regular unemployment it’s a bit tough to compete. Even with a sound “value proposition”. In the bad states that’s 45k a year, Washington that’s 72k a year.

      Regarding oil… I’m not gonna debate the stupidity of the argument that Biden in 6 months is responsible for the rise in oil prices, unless of course you’re crediting him for driving up demand by solving our covid dilemma?

      “Recovery” aka demand is contributing, but primarily because global production has been cut. OPEC doesn’t see US shale expanding much any time soon so they are happy to cut back and let prices rise. Previously they tried flooding the market to price shale out. Apparently they no longer feel they have to.

    • FireLicht2020

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      It’s 32k a year if you were eligible for a year (which you aren’t). They expire here shortly.

      I’ve seen McDonald’s offering 18/hour near me… guess they CAN pay a livable wage after all?

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      It’s 32k a year if you were eligible for a year (which you aren’t). They expire here shortly.

      It’s additional Federal Unemployment. That means on top of whatever your local state is already offering. Which means it’s more than $32k a year, Mr. Mayor.

      Strenuously juxtaposed. Absolutely everything.

      I’ve seen McDonald’s offering 18/hour near me… guess they CAN pay a livable wage after all?

      First off, lolz @ livable wage for a McDonald’s worker. Those jobs are supposed to be first jobs for high-school kids, not careers to support a family of four.

      Second, of course McDonald’s can afford to pay more. But what’s the cost of a Big Mac at your local McDonald’s. The same Big Mac that cost $4 (or whatever it was) a year ago is now $6.50 (or whatever it is.) That’s called inflation.

      Have you seen the fallout from Seattle’s gradual minimum wage raise. Using round numbers, they went from $9 to $11 without many issues. But when they jumped from $11 to $15, the shit started to hit the fan. Businesses started raising prices. Customers started going other places. Those people who celebrated over their $15 minimum wage were now losing hours or worse – jobless. And sure they were taking home more money, but they didn’t have more buying power because businesses raised their prices. This is called inflation. It’s pretty basic economics.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Biggs missing the point? What? Never?

      McDonald or any place that was offering minimum wage is now offering much better wages as they don’t have a labor force to extort.

      I don’t think a McDonald’s worker should make 18/hour… I’m giving you an example of how markets work.

      Supply and demand

      And how businesses find a way to make things work that we’ve heard they cannot

    • Biggs3535

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      Biggs missing the point? What? Never?

      McDonald or any place that was offering minimum wage is now offering much better wages as they don’t have a labor force to extort.

      I don’t think a McDonald’s worker should make 18/hour… I’m giving you an example of how markets work.

      Supply and demand

      And how businesses find a way to make things work that we’ve heard they cannot

      Well, you’re the dingus that brought livable wage. Don’t whine about missing the point after you’re harpooned on the point you brought up.

      Now to the shifted goal posts: I don’t think anybody has ever made the argument that raising the minimum rage would hurt a billion-dollar company like McDonald’s. However, you’re conflating McDonald’s with thousands upon thousands of small businesses that it will and has hurt.

      What the left never understands in these arguments is there are always going to low-income earners. Those low income positions aren’t meant to support a family of four. Historically, this country has the least amount of poverty ever, but you can’t legislate the entire population out of poverty. There are always going to be people that bust their ass to move up in the world while their counterparts are perfectly happy watching Marvel movies all day in mommy’s basement. Again, there is always going to be a level of personal responsibility here.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Again, this is a fair point regarding small businesses but it is still economics. Many small businesses fail and some of that is due to poor planning, some of it is due to a corporate squeeze, but much of the time it is a poor business plan.

      If you need minimum wage to make your business profitable you have razor thin margins. That’s just bad business so you better have access to capital or you’ll fail.

      There is no perfect solution but minimum wage isn’t attractive. You need to be able to attract, develop, and retain employees… especially your key employees.

      I literally do business benefits for a living… so many business owners are just reacting and complaining instead of planning.

      Small businesses have SO MUCH tax incentive to get their tax liability down to zero, especially in the early years.

      In short this rant is: you gotta spend money (invest) to make money.

      We can’t just call Small businesses a victim because their business model is unsustainable.

      That’s why I love what I do because you can help them create benefits where the government is essentially subsidizing your costs to give employees benefits that will keep them.

    • Biggs3535

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      Again, this is a fair point regarding small businesses but it is still economics. Many small businesses fail and some of that is due to poor planning, some of it is due to a corporate squeeze, but much of the time it is a poor business plan.

      If you need minimum wage to make your business profitable you have razor thin margins. That’s just bad business so you better have access to capital or you’ll fail.

      There is no perfect solution but minimum wage isn’t attractive. You need to be able to attract, develop, and retain employees… especially your key employees.

      I literally do business benefits for a living… so many business owners are just reacting and complaining instead of planning.

      Small businesses have SO MUCH tax incentive to get their tax liability down to zero, especially in the early years.

      In short this rant is: you gotta spend money (invest) to make money.

      We can’t just call Small businesses a victim because their business model is unsustainable.

      That’s why I love what I do because you can help them create benefits where the government is essentially subsidizing your costs to give employees benefits that will keep them.

      At the end you shifted into more employee retention, but that’s not really what we’re talking about in an inflation/minimum wage debate.

      I’d argue you’re being rather flippant in saying “much of the time” small businesses fail because of a poor business plan. Does that happen? Absolutely. There are many idiots that feel they can go into business for themselves only to find out it’s not as easy as you think. I feel pretty confident in saying you’ve never opened or ran your own business, but correct me if I’m wrong.

      Let’s stick in the restaurant industry. How is a small business supposed to compete price-wise with a billion dollar company like McDonald’s if they are having to pay their employees $15 an hour? It’s tough for them to sell $1-$2 hamburgers and keep the doors open. It’s certainly not as easy as you’re implying above.

    • FireLicht2020

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      I currently own a small business that represents about 15% of my income so certainly not the same as going all in etc…

      It’s sole proprietor so much different.

      Yes I agree to an extent regarding wages small vs corporate and yes I did pivot too retention only because the two are interconnected.

      Attract, develop, retain.

      That’s how you win with employee capital… much else goes into it but that’s where we are…

      So McDonald’s can’t attract at minimum wage currently so they have to offer $18/hr because working for McDonald’s, other than pay, isn’t attractive.

      How can a small business beat that?
      401k
      Health insurance
      Group life and disability
      Golden handcuffs
      Profit sharing
      An amazing culture
      Room for growth
      A boss you love
      Great marketing
      Social media

      I mean the list goes on…

      Here in Oregon, the Microbrewery capital of the world they are doing quite well competeting with the big dogs (Busch, etc) because:

      Great culture
      Flexibile hours
      Profit sharing
      Benefit
      Decent wage with opportunities for tips (which I hate because l that is is customer subsidy)

      McDonald’s doesn’t offer tips they offer higher base.

      Same can be said of Ma & Pa restaurants… but tips isn’t even close to a solution… just context

      In the end my main point is that these corporations CAN afford to pay more but they either
      A.) Are worried about quarterly earnings and the share price
      B.) They have ineffective org charts
      C.) C-suite is overpaid vs the value they bring (not always the case… some CEO you could argue should make more like Musk etc).

      But they can afford it but don’t because they choose to INVEST their margins elsewhere… that is a DECISION that needs ownership.

      You can play the minimum wage game and high turnover but you’ll never get retention and thus your middle management will suck… and that’s where the heavy lifting occurs.

      These businesses big or small, have so much opportunity if they just planned better and had a more attractive value proposition to customers.

      Some of the most profitable businesses I work with are doing stupid shit like hot sauce or lumber brokering… things you wouldn’t think of… because folks think they have a unique business model but they don’t. Oh wow you want to start a bar. Well you better have capital because you have to attract and overpay upfront

    • Biggs3535

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      Fear not, Americans. The man in the White House has his finger on the pulse:

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-22/biden-says-u-s-seeing-near-term-inflation-as-economy-recovers

      Sweet geebus, this guy is permanently out to lunch.

      • FireLicht2020

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        Same type of argument that tax cuts pay for themselves

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Joe the Retard.

      He says “if Congress will just pass more of his gigantic spending bills, inflation will ease/go away”.

      The Trash(D)Party is already saying inflation is due to “DrumPf’s haNdlinG of tHe corronah viRus”– not LoserfgtJoe’s huge spending for NO REASON.

      • FireLicht2020

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        The same infrastructure plan your boi wanted but couldn’t pass.

        Rich

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      The same infrastructure plan your boi wanted but couldn’t pass.

      Rich

      Wrong.
      Dementia, AgeSpots Joe’s plan was 6 fuh king trillion dollars!

      It got WHACKED by 80%

    • FireLicht2020

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      And what was Trump’s infrastructure plan?

      Or how about his health care plan?

      Just a failed loser

    • Biggs3535

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      Same type of argument that tax cuts pay for themselves

      Except the tax cuts actually did pay for themselves. Revenues not only stayed the same (as in paid for themselves) but they increased every…single…year. Trump’s tax cuts weren’t the problem. His big government spending was.

      I’ve addressed this faulty argument multiple times on this forum. It’s OK to admit you and the other Trump haters/big government lovers were wrong on this issue, as the last time revenues decreased was in 2009. The United States of America (or any country ever on the planet) has never had more tax revenues in the history of it’s existence. How’s the government doing with all of that capital?

      It would be nice to not have to strenuously juxtapose the same thing over and over and over.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Biggs you do understand revenue goes up year to year naturally, right?

      The tax cuts creating more revenue, is the same thing as an infrastructure bill paying for itself or Obamacare paying for itself.

      Your article, unless I missed it (I’m juggling kids so maybe I did), doesn’t equate the increased revenue to the tax cuts.

      It just shows revenue going up… which is does 90% of year over year comparisons

    • Biggs3535

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      Biggs you do understand revenue goes up year to year naturally, right?

      Revenues didn’t “naturally” go up in 2009. Or 2008. Or 2003. Or 2002. Or 2001.

      Seems as if it’s not so natural.

      The tax cuts creating more revenue, is the same thing as an infrastructure bill paying for itself or Obamacare paying for itself.

      It’s the same thing in only that’s it’s not the same thing at all.

      You people scoffed at the Trump administration saying the tax cuts would pay for themselves. They were right, you were wrong. This isn’t an opinion. Any statement otherwise is either ignorance or a flat-out lie.

      Let’s try this another route. You explain to me how the tax cuts didn’t pay for themselves, i.e. how revenues didn’t at least stay the same.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Revenue went down during those years because of market corrections. Great Recession on the recovery, dot com bubble.

      The argument that of you cut taxes businesses will make more and create more revenue to tax.

      The Obamacare argument is if you insure everyone then the bills that would go unpaid, which we all pay for indirectly, wouldn’t happen… plus everyone is insured so pooled risk lowers cost… that’s group benefits 101.

      Infrastructure pays for itself with growth. You create jobs and subsidy and businesses create more business… similar to a tax cut.

      It’s the same argument for all of them IN PRINCIPLE. Execution is a different story.

      So how did the tax cuts NOT increase revenue. In theory they can… but as I said, most years the economy is up. When you’re up there is more revenue. That’s a core function of GDP expansion… any businesses is shrinking if it isn’t growing.

      I understand the principle of all 3 arguments that they will “pay for themselves” but in reality that is rarely the case… and these are 2 Dems and 1 GOP so it’s not like I’m picking on Trump here.

      Typically in an up market you balance the budget, you don’t add more to the expansion because it generally flows to the top… which it did.

      It’s like a cake that is 98% icing

    • Biggs3535

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      It’s the same argument for all of them IN PRINCIPLE

      It’s really not.

      Execution is a different story.

      Well, because one can and has been executed (the tax cuts did in fact pay for themselves) while the other is impossible.

      Also, you’re still evading the question. I showed with verifiable facts that the Trump tax cuts not only paid for themselves (revenues stayed the same), but revenues increased. You are saying that isn’t the case because revenues “increase naturally” – something I also proved incorrect with verifiable facts. So, try again. You tell me how the Trump tax cuts did not pay for themselves. You like to say it, so attempt to back it up.

      If you are unwilling or unable to do so, you’ll need to acquiesce that you and your ilk were wrong.

    • FireLicht2020

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      How can you say I evaded the question? I gave you plenty of an answer, you just didn’t like it or agree with it.

      Revenue continued to grow because of economic expansion.

      The point you’re making is a fair point. Revenue didn’t go down as a function of the tax cuts. Fair.

      But that doesn’t mean they paid for themselves either… during expansion revenue always increases. The stimulus themselves created more taxable revenue. Inflation was very low so that helped as well.

      What I’m scoffing at is them literally being a net zero. “Paying for themselves” isn’t the same as “correlation without causation”.

    • Biggs3535

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      Revenue continued to grow because of economic expansion.

      Which was the point of the tax cuts.

      The point you’re making is a fair point. Revenue didn’t go down as a function of the tax cuts. Fair.

      But that doesn’t mean they paid for themselves either

      Of course it does, you just are being too stubborn to admit it.

      At the time the tax cuts were announced, voted on, and signed into legislation, the people on your side of the argument said revenues would decrease because of the tax cuts. That inarguably did not happen. And are now still scoffing at the notion that they paid for themselves. You’re dancing all over the place instead of admitting this inarguable fact. Again, I’m not offering my personal opinion on the matter. These are facts.

      Since you aren’t able to give factual information as to how the Trump tax cuts did not pay for themselves – and there’s a reason why are aren’t able. Let’s approach this a third way: what metric needed to be reached for you to admit that the Trump tax cuts did in fact pay for themselves? Revenues staying the same and revenues increasing apparently wasn’t good enough – so what was?

    • FireLicht2020

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      You do a YoY comparison. Average growth. Did the the growth in revenue stay on the predictive line, decrease, or increase?

      Meaning, and this is just a random number, if average revenue growth is 3%, and the tax cuts effective date is 2017 fiscal year, you’d examine 2017 fiscal year vs 2018 fiscal year and see if growth with the same, up, or down.

      This is like blaming Trump for debt growth (he added spending but ignore that function).

      We know debt will grow to the tune of, let’s just again assume 3%. If under Trump the debt grew but by 2% instead then you’d say that was progress.

      Tax cuts have never “paid for themselves”. You know why I know?

      Go back to the 80s and compare the tax rate to now and look at the debt/deficit.

      And of course you’re right that spending is out of control. No doubt about it… both parties.

    • FireLicht2020

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      2021 $3.86 (estimated)
      FY 2020 $3.71 trillion (estimated)
      FY 2019 $3.46 trillion (actual)
      FY 2018 $3.33 trillion
      FY 2017 $3.32 trillion
      FY 2016 $3.27 trillion

    • FireLicht2020

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      Just for clarity I’m putting the numbers there…

      So how much did the tax cuts directly effective that vs other factors.

      You’re asking my to prove the inverse of your hypothesis… which doesn’t make sense

    • FireLicht2020

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      FY 2015 $3.25 trillion
      FY 2014 $3.02 trillion
      FY 2013 $2.77 trillion
      FY 2012 $2.45 trillion
      FY 2011 $2.30 trillion
      FY 2010 $2.16 trillion
      FY 2009 $2.10 trillion
      FY 2008 $2.52 trillion

      Here’s Obama’s years. Notice how the dip happened during the recession. That’s obviously going to stunt growth.

      Over 6 years he increased revenue by almost a trillion dollars.

      There’s just so much freaking context to this that you’re trying to dismiss.

      Tax cuts don’t exist in a vacuum

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Just for clarity I’m putting the numbers there…

      So how much did the tax cuts directly effective that vs other factors.

      You’re asking my to prove the inverse of your hypothesis… which doesn’t make sense

      Arguing nonstop, just like your SHINGLESdad, Virgil_Catfish.

      LOL

      • FireLicht2020

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        Post count: 7272

        There’s currently 7 threads you started on the board with your gibberish.

        Clown

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sources-revenue-federal-government

      CORPORATE INCOME TAX
      The tax on corporate profits yielded 7 percent of government revenue in 2019, a revenue source that has been trending downward.

      Revenue from the tax has fallen from an average of 3.7 percent of GDP in the late 1960s to an average of just 1.4 percent of GDP over the past five years, and 1.1 percent of GDP most recently in 2019 (figure 3).

      OTHER REVENUES
      The federal government also collects revenue from estate and gift taxes, customs duties, earnings from the Federal Reserve System, and various fees and charges. In total, these sources generated 5.0 percent of federal revenue in 2019. They have ranged between 0.6 and 1.0 percent of GDP since 1965 (figure 3).

      In recent years, the figure has been on the high end of that range because of unusually high profits of the Federal Reserve Board related to its efforts to stimulate the economy since 2008.

    • FireLicht2020

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      And lastly, here you go….what I said but with actual numbers:

      I’m doing my best string posting here so I’m done for a bit.

      Think I’ve sufficiently answered your questions at this point but I’m sure you’ll disagree

    • Biggs3535

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      And lastly, here you go….what I said but with actual numbers:

      It’s an analysis based on CBO projections. Projections that are rarely, if ever, correct. The real numbers (actual revenue increases) have been posted.

      Tax cuts have never “paid for themselves”. You know why I know?

      You actually don’t, which is why you haven’t been able to answer the questions that have been posed to you. You’re typing a lot, but saying very little of substance.

      I’ll end my part in this debate, as it’s inarguable that revenues not only stayed the same (paid for themselves), but actually increased. Revenues didn’t decrease, like your side said they would. No projection analysis required.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Is this where I call you the source police and accused you of tap dancing?

      You addressed barely any of which I said… all you did was discredit projections when your article also included projections.

      I’m not going to repeat everything I just said…

      You can either take a look at the articles I sent and the points I’ve outlined, OR we can call this a stand-still.

      The tax cuts did NOT pay for themselves. You’ve yet to show be where the revenue DIRECTLY from the cuts themselves increased prior revenue in places where it influences (for example the corporate tax rate where I showed you revenue went DOWN)

      🤙

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Flashcards2020,

      I just checked your sources– and everything you said is false. Unbiased opinion. :-)

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      our article also included projections.

      Lolz…My argument isn’t based on projections, it’s based on the real numbers from ‘17, ‘18, and ‘19. I haven’t made any argument on the estimated numbers for ‘20 or ‘21.

      The tax cuts did NOT pay for themselves. You’ve yet to show be where the revenue DIRECTLY from the cuts themselves increased prior revenue in places where it influences

      Bwahahahahaha! I love the partial admission here. “Sure, revenues increased (even though my side said they would decrease because of the tax cuts) but you can’t prove those increases were DIRECTLY from the tax cuts I said would lower revenues.” That’s good stuff.

      You’re flailing about, and understandably so. That tends to happen when arguing against inarguable factual information.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Read the article, man… idk what to tell you?

      Tons of reasons revenue REMAINED in an expansion model.

      By your logic, Obamacare paid for itself, increasing revenue by 1 trillion over 6+ years.

      See how stupid that sounds?

      Bow out… You’re over your skiis here.

      Your only argument is that revenue continued to grow without actually proving it was a function of the cuts. And their projections missed by a country mile…

      Cherry picking as usual

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      The most appropriate test of the revenue impact of the TCJA is to compare actual revenues in FY2018 with predicted revenues in FY2018 assuming Congress had not passed the legislation. In fact, the actual amount of revenue collected in FY2018 was significantly lower than the Congressional Budget Office’s (CBO) projection of FY2018 revenue made in January 2017—before the tax cuts were signed into law in December 2017. The shortfall was $275 billion, or 7.6% of revenues that were expected before the tax cuts took place. Given that the economy grew, and in the absence of another policy that could have caused a large revenue loss, the data imply that the TCJA substantially reduced revenues (Figure 1).

      Why is this so hard for you?

      Are you the source police now?

    • FireLicht2020

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    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Time to repent, child!

      https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2019/12/19/478924/tcja-2-years-later-corporations-not-workers-big-winners/

      And again… corporate tax revenue DROPPED.

      This is looking real bad for you… still gonna give you a chance to redeem yourself!

      Find God! Find yourself

    • FireLicht2020

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    • jbear

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      Post count: 4473

      It’s 32k a year if you were eligible for a year (which you aren’t). They expire here shortly.

      I’ve seen McDonald’s offering 18/hour near me… guess they CAN pay a livable wage after all?

      In Portland?

      Sure, they don’t want to be burned to the ground for daring to pay less than the magic, made up number. Fascism works.

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      By your logic, Obamacare paid for itself, increasing revenue by 1 trillion over 6+ years.

      See how stupid that sounds?

      It’s getting tough to take you seriously with this stuff.

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        This is the definition of surrender…

        You see, revenue went up those years so of course it paid for itself.

        And there aren’t even those pesky predictions for those years either

    • TheChronicHotAir

      Participant
      Post count: 6041

      …yeah, Virgil’sFlashcards2020!

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      Back to BidInflation:

      Those people who celebrated over their $15 minimum wage were now losing hours or worse – jobless. And sure they were taking home more money, but they didn’t have more buying power because businesses raised their prices. This is called inflation. It’s pretty basic economics.

      The latest Bureau of Labor Statistics’ Economic News Release reinforces this point excellently:

      Real average hourly earnings for all employees decreased 0.5 percent from May to June, seasonally
      adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an increase of 0.3
      percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.9 percent in the Consumer Price
      Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).

      Real average weekly earnings decreased 0.9 percent over the month due to the change in real average
      hourly earnings combined with a decrease of 0.3 percent in the average workweek.

      Real average hourly earnings decreased 1.7 percent, seasonally adjusted, from June 2020 to June 2021.
      The change in real average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the average
      workweek resulted in a 1.4-percent decrease in real average weekly earnings over this period.

      Low-income earners are bringing more money home, but their buying power is even lower. Inflation. It’s pretty basic economics that the left will ignore and definitely not learn from, but will keep virtue signaling away. And the simpletons will suck it right up.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Yo gave up on the revenue debate lol!

      https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/nobel-winning-poverty-researcher-on-why-people-wont-go-back-to-work-.html

      Here’s a good read on the unemployment benefits (that are about to expire btw)

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      Yo gave up on the revenue debate lol!

      I kicked your ass on revenues increasing every single year, you simply don’t want to admit it. If you’d like to continue that ass-kicking, start another thread on it. I’ll repeat the same ass-kicking.

      • FireLicht2020

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        Post count: 7272

        Nah, yuh didn’t.

        I showed you how corporate tax revenue declined and you took your ball.

        The problem for you Biggs, is that don’t actually understand economics.

        The devil is in the details, and the details scare and confuse you.

        So… like I said…

        Obamacare increased the revenue by $1t.

        Your moronic argument, not mine.

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      …Yeah, Virgil 2.0!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Biggs3535

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    • Biggs3535

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    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      More on BidInflation:

      https://thehill.com/policy/finance/565327-fed-chief-holds-firm-amid-inflation-concerns

      Powell spoke to reporters shortly after the Fed’s Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) announced it would keep interest rates at a 0 to 0.25 percent baseline range and continue its monthly purchases of at least $80 billion in Treasury bonds and $40 billion in mortgage-backed securities, as widely expected. The FOMC did, however, note that “the economy has made progress” toward the Fed’s goals of maximum employment and inflation on track to be slightly higher than 2 percent annually.

      While the U.S. remains more than 6.8 million jobs below its February 2020 peak, inflation has risen to an annual rate of more than 5 percent — well above the Fed’s target — largely due to supply disruptions and kinks related to the reopening of the economy.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Buwahahahahhahahahah…

      Nice little “move along nothing to see here… back to this”.

      Pathetic

      Let me ask you something about Biden inflation. What SPECIFICALLY did Biden do within 6 months to cause this inflation.

      And as you decide to list out those point I want you to THINK about how long policies take to effect change.

      Because you see, I don’t think you understand economics AT ALL.

    • Roy

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      Post count: 4083

      You can’t really argue with this, but that doesn’t negate the positive impact that the stimulus had to help people get through the Pandemic.

      It’s true that some people are not looking to get back in the workforce because of the temporary benefits they have gotten. I don’t get that short term thinking myself, but unfortunately there are people like that. My brother is a restaurant manager and has had to deal with a labor shortage. But as they stop getting those added benefits they will have to go back to work. Maybe companies could take some of that money that the executives are getting and some of the profits that the shareholders have been getting and give some pay raises to the employees? That might help the situation.

      One of the silver linings of the Black Plague was the end of the feudal system. Peasants and serfs were able to shop around and demand better pay. Of course I’m not equating that situation with today’s pandemic. But if you want your labor back, maybe you will have to pay them more at the expense of the profits of top executives and shareholders. Or you could hire more illegal immigrants.

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      Buwahahahahhahahahah…

      Nice little “move along nothing to see here… back to this”.

      Pathetic

      You’ve had your ass handed to you repeatedly on that subject. That isn’t the subject of this thread, Mr. Mayor.

      Strenuously juxtaposed, absolutely everything.

      Let me ask you something about Biden inflation. What SPECIFICALLY did Biden do within 6 months to cause this inflation.

      And as you decide to list out those point I want you to THINK about how long policies take to effect change.

      Because you see, I don’t think you understand economics AT ALL

      This questions have been addressed and answered multiple times in the thread. But I know you, Mr. Mayor, and you need everything strenuously juxtaposed. So…

      From what I can tell the current inflation is driven by supply train problems caused by lockdowns and people not working, with an overabundance of Govt largesse with all the “stimulus” we have been getting of late. When you have more money than goods to buy it’s inevitable what is going to result.

      Biden extended the extra Federal Unemployment benefits through September of 2021. This directly led to less people looking for gainful employment, even though there was/is a huge surplus of available jobs. These aren’t opinions. The data is there for anyone to see. Some states are already declining those extra federal benefits, and those states have seen employment jump – and the Biden administration laughably claimed those “created” jobs as a win for his economic policy. The predictable useful idiots gobbled it up, as they will once job numbers go up in Sept/Oct after Daddy Government stops the extra Unemployment Benefits. It’s quite the racket. Give people money to stay home, and then when you take that money away – claim job creation.

      And if you don’t think this administration’s actions on oil have affected the daily price, I’m not sure what to tell you Mr. Mayor. I’m not sure how things work in the metropolis of Cluelessville, but words/actions from the President of the United States of America make things move in that department. These actions cost citizens at the pump, grocery store, and damn near any other good they buy – not to mention the potential $15B taxpayers are on the hook for Biden’s cancellation of the Keystone Pipeline.

      There’s a reason you’ve attempted to bounce around to livable wage, employee retention, tax cuts, etc.. That reason is you haven’t the foggiest fuggin’ idea as what you’re talking about, proven with your earlier admission that you had no idea the Federal Unemployment assistance was on top of State Unemployment. You really don’t know much about how the unemployment system works, when you consider you though “everyone” paid for it and not that employers paid for unemployment benefits.

      But keep up the superior charade. It’s quite cute.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Right you SAID those things but they aren’t correct because you have no fucking idea how economics works.

      Biden has been in office for 6 months.

      Oil prices alone barely affected by the executive branch… this is a simple known fact that you’re skipping.

      Inflation is the product of covid, not Biden’s policy.

      Unemployment benefits are expiring but there’s a lot more to the labor shortage as I’ve posted in the article above.

      See, you’re a hubris mess… you think you’ve said something so it is fact. You think you’ve handed ass when you haven’t.

      You have no fucking idea how economics works. None. Zero.

      You think that total revenue on a function of tax law for example.

      You have zero ability to look at context or competing factors.

      It’s sim-thinking.

      When it comes to economics you don’t know what you’re talking about. I actually think you are very quick/intelligent in other subjects and every now and then I think you make good points (wrapped around dickhead comments)…

      But economics is not your strong suit.

      Bow out…

    • Biggs3535

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      Post count: 6674

      Biden has been in office for 6 months.

      Did he or did he not extent the Federal Unemployment assistance?

      I realize this is simply an excuse you’d like to offer. But if your position is Biden is so completely incompetent that he has zero effect on the country he’s running, that’s quite an argument to make. I agree that he’s incompetent, but that incompetency has shown itself in a negative way, not neutral.

      Right you SAID those things but they aren’t correct because you have no fucking idea how economics works.

      Inflation is the product of covid, not Biden’s policy.

      You have no fucking idea how economics works. None. Zero.

      When it comes to economics you don’t know what you’re talking about. I actually think you are very quick/intelligent in other subjects and every now and then I think you make good points (wrapped around dickhead comments)…

      But economics is not your strong suit.

      Sweet Geebus, that’s a lot of horseshit. Please tell me more how economics work:

      FireLicht2020 wrote:

      If unemployment is more appealing than the job you’re offering maybe it’s time to rethink your value proposition and take some ownership?

      When the Govt is paying an additional $600 A WEEK on top of regular unemployment it’s a bit tough to compete. Even with a sound “value proposition”. In the bad states that’s 45k a year, Washington that’s 72k a year.

      FireLicht2020 wrote:

      It’s 32k a year if you were eligible for a year (which you aren’t). They expire here shortly.

      It’s additional Federal Unemployment. That means on top of whatever your local state is already offering. Which means it’s more than $32k a year, Mr. Mayor.

      Strenuously juxtaposed. Absolutely everything.

      I love getting economic lessons from someone who has no idea how a simple subject like Unemployment works, along with a myriad other everyday issues that continue to elude you.

    • jbear

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      Post count: 4473

      Up all night drinking?

      I was in Europe ding dong.

    • jbear

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      I actually read most of this. Fire talking about economics…. er, trying to talk about economics is downright hilarious.

      So many dumb comments I could respond to in all this but in the interests of charity I’d like to keep this simple and say something I’ve already said which Fire can’t seem to comprehend.

      $15 minimum wage is a completely made up number that has no bearing on anything except some tingly feel good place left wingers feel in their tummies when they think they are saving the universe. Biggs pointed out in the OP one reason why…. inflation. Inflation that the “solution” (a $15 dollar minimum wage) has directly and drastically made worse. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. A $15 dollar minimum wage or any minimum wage for that matter is nothing but market manipulation. Worse, it’s manipulation that ends up working against it’s intended feel good goals. That would be bad enough if it was an accident but those pushing this sort of deranged thinking know exactly what they are doing…. it’s not an accident.

      And it all comes back around to why Fire can’t get his head around the idea that tax cuts don’t have to decrease revenues. It’s an exercise in winks and nods that all good leftists sign up for when they join the cause. You stimulate the economy through increased government spending…. ignore the inefficiency of the bureaucracy because you have to to win the war. There is nothing in the universe more efficient than voluntary free trade between two individuals.

    • jbear

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      That would be bad enough if it was an accident but those pushing this sort of deranged thinking know exactly what they are doing…. it’s not an accident

      To clarify my above post… It’s not an accident because the left from socialist to progressive…. perhaps leaving out some tiny portion of Democrats, wants to bring down the free market and capitalism in general. It’s hidden in every one of Fire’s posts here. To him it’s benign but it’s anything but. The goal of these people… the “Fire’s” of the world is to change our economic system to such an extent that it has no remaining similarities with an actual free market. The similarities are already difficult enough to find as it is. To these people tax cuts can NEVER pay for themselves. It’s an impossibility. This is because the only way they see an “equitable” future society is one where a committee of elites makes sure everyone gets an equal slice of the pie, ignoring the incontrovertible truth that the best and most efficient arbiter of fairness is a truly free market.

      /rant

    • FireLicht2020

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      “I read most of this” = I read what confirms my beliefs

      Did you read where I wrote the corporate tax revenue went down?

      Did you read where Biggs responded to that directly?

      Revenue is not solely a function of taxation. Revenue increases YoY. Period. Unless there is a correction.

      This simple fact, compounded by his complete ignorance on the subject, makes him a complete joke.

      So we are shifting back to extending the unemployment benefits, which I didn’t agree with…

      But that’s not the same as “the tax cuts paid for themselves” now is it?

      If you think inflation is a function solely of extending unemployment benefits, you’re an absolute moron.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Again, why aren’t people going back to work isn’t as simple as the extended unemployment benefits:

      https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/nobel-winning-poverty-researcher-on-why-people-wont-go-back-to-work-.html

      For a third time. Read it

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      Again, why aren’t people going back to work isn’t as simple as the extended unemployment benefits:

      https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/nobel-winning-poverty-researcher-on-why-people-wont-go-back-to-work-.html

      For a third time. Read it

      You can post it a fourth time if you, but it’s not going change that it’s a bunch touchy-feely horseshit like this:

      But Duflo was clear that soundbites about “lazy” Americans are wrong. People may, in fact, need more time to pick the right job and, in many instances, relocate for a job.

      That broad sounds more like a big government social worker than an economist.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      It’s weird… you STILL haven’t addressed corporate tax revenue.

      It’s almost like the beta inside of you took over…?

      As for the article, your juicy surrender is all I needed.

      I know that context for you is touchy feely… because you think in 0110101000101010100111.

      But maybe your can reprogram that simpleton brain of yours?

      Maybe go to investopia and learn some core tenants of economics?

      Call life alert if you fall down?

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      It’s weird… you STILL haven’t addressed corporate tax revenue.

      It’s almost like the beta inside of you took over…?

      As for the article, your juicy surrender is all I needed.

      I know that context for you is touchy feely… because you think in 0110101000101010100111.

      But maybe your can reprogram that simpleton brain of yours?

      Maybe go to investopia and learn some core tenants of economics?

      Call life alert if you fall down?

      You’re all over the place. It’s pretty clear at this point the level of butt hurt I’ve unleashed on you, as your ability to make any coherent argument has drained. Don’t get me wrong, it was never that great in the first place, but now it’s like watching a turd spinning around the toilet bowl.

      Either debate the subject at hand or don’t, it’s up to you. But don’t be a whiny little bitch. Not a good look.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      Still

      Still

      Still

      Still

      You don’t address the corporate tax revenue

      Still

      And you’ll still say you “won” this argument…

      I’m “all over the place” because you think in zeros and ones and cannot fucking compute.

      You went back to your moronic take on Biden being responsible for inflation because he… extended unemployment benefit.

      Laugh
      My
      Fucking
      Ass
      Off

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      Revenue is not solely a function of taxation. Revenue increases YoY. Period. Unless there is a correction.

      This simple fact, compounded by his complete ignorance on the subject, makes him a complete joke.

      Spoken like a true Keynesian.

      https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/keynesian-multiplier.asp

      Criticism of Keynesian Multiplier
      Milton Friedman, among others, showed that the Keynesian multiplier was both incorrectly formulated and fundamentally flawed.2

       One flaw is ignoring how governments finance spending by taxation or through debt issues. Raising taxes takes the same or more out of the economy as saving, while raising funds by bonds causes the government to go in debt. The growth of debt becomes a powerful incentive for the government to raise taxes or inflate the currency to pay it off, thus lowering the purchasing power of each dollar that the workers are earning.

      Perhaps the biggest flaw, however, is ignoring the fact that saving and investing have a multiplier effect at least equal to that of deficit spending. This, of course, comes without the debt downside. In the end, it comes down to whether you trust private individuals to spend their own money wisely or whether you think government officials will do a better job.

      What is interesting here is your insistence that Biggs doesn’t know what he’s talking about when you clearly don’t understand what you’re talking about. Your view of economics… the view that you think is incontrovertible is nothing but a politically slated take that you’ve been fed your entire life. Almost all Democrats believe in the Keynesian multiplier because it strengthens their politics.

      Yet there are and have been criticisms from better people than you or I. So in conclusion, what you’re talking about isn’t really what you think you’re talking about.

      I get a bit riled when somebody says dumb shit like Revenues always go up. It reminds me of realtors during the 2000’s describing real estate prices. They were right until they weren’t. It’s been true over the last decades because of market manipulation which is the sole purpose of the central banking system. Everyone these days ought to be able to admit that the economy is highly, highly manipulated.

    • FireLicht2020

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      You get mad at statistics?

      Go yell at clouds, boomer.

      Why is every conversation with you some moronic slide into socialism?

      I’ll tell you why…

      Straw man

      Capitalism is the greatest economic engine the world has ever seen. It is imperfect and requires oversight, but without it we lose all innovation and progress.

      Stop with your socialism temper tantrums… you just sound like a whiny boomer

    • TheChronicHotAir

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      Post count: 6041

      I can confirm that Fire (aka Virgil 2.0) is a stupid f##k.

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        Wow I’m honored you left out “r*tard” and “f**got”.

        This is a special step up for you!

        You get pudding with lunch today! Somebody let Nurse Ratched know!

    • jbear

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      Post count: 4473

      You get mad at statistics?

      Go yell at clouds, boomer.

      Why is every conversation with you some moronic slide into socialism?

      I’ll tell you why…

      Straw man

      Capitalism is the greatest economic engine the world has ever seen. It is imperfect and requires oversight, but without it we lose all innovation and progress.

      Stop with your socialism temper tantrums… you just sound like a whiny boomer

      I’m 43 years old Fire. Point blank…. you have no idea what you’re talking about as usual.

      And I don’t get mad I get irritated. Not at statistics smart guy, It’s irritating because you’re a dimwitted idiot posting shit like “revenues always go up”. Shit like this would make some Nobel prize winning economists roll over in their graves and you post that crap then mock Biggs for not being as informed as you are. Pretty stupid Fire. Certainly worthy of mockery.

      Unlike your hero who would usually step in before now to save you from completely humiliating yourself, I don’t claim to have the answer to anything other than the undisputable fact that you are an idiot.

      My only point that you seem to have whiffed at again, is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. That the reasons you believe what you do about revenues is rooted more in politics than you know, that the entire argument you are trying to make is in reality based on the larger ongoing political argument about whether government or private enterprise best stimulates an economy and why.

      There is no better place to discuss any of the stuff that I brought up and you label a “moronic slide into socialism” than a thread about inflation. Again, way over your head I’m sure.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 7272

      I’m 43 years old Fire. Point blank…. you have no idea what you’re talking about as usual.

      Lmfao. We both know you have the heart of a boomer. These days it’s more of an attitude than an age.

      And I don’t get mad I get irritated. Not at statistics smart guy, It’s irritating because you’re a dimwitted idiot posting shit like “revenues always go up”. Shit like this would make some Nobel prize winning economists roll over in their graves and you post that crap then mock Biggs for not being as informed as you are. Pretty stupid Fire. Certainly worthy of mockery.

      Again I’m so sorry that stats are hard for you. GDP grows and when it slows down experts get concerned. That was one of the main criticisms of Obama’s recovery. Revenue, aside from market correction years, has to go up. It works like an index fund. It varies, and every now and then there is a dip, but the trajectory is always toward growth. This is just basic fucking economics that you two needle dicks can’t wrap your head around.

      Unlike your hero who would usually step in before now to save you from completely humiliating yourself, I don’t claim to have the answer to anything other than the undisputable fact that you are an idiot.

      Third attempt at this joke and still a fail. You and Biggs however are like Jenny and Forrest.

      My only point that you seem to have whiffed at again, is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. That the reasons you believe what you do about revenues is rooted more in politics than you know, that the entire argument you are trying to make is in reality based on the larger ongoing political argument about whether government or private enterprise best stimulates an economy and why.

      Nope, the inverse. I’m providing macro economics to micro trends. It’s like blaming Trump for the debt or giving him credit for the expansion ride. These trends are affected by policies but it takes sometimes years for them to be felt. Again a basic economic concept…

      There is no better place to discuss any of the stuff that I brought up and you label a “moronic slide into socialism” than a thread about inflation. Again, way over your head I’m sure.

      You’re obsessed. I’m not talking about socialism here. If you think extending unemployment benefits was a bad idea, I agree with you. If you think it’s a grand conspiracy to promote the welfare state and subdue people into communist thinking… I laugh at you. Those extended benefits were a bad choice, and they played a minor role in this spike in inflation, but that isn’t the reason why businesses can’t fill their jobs and why gas went up. You’re better off pointing to a botched pandemic in the first place, something that happened 18 months ago, as a better correlation to the problem.

      I know you two are struggling with the idea of a liberal who knows more on this topic (since I’ve worked in finance for 20+ years) and has found success in life… it’s probably easier to envision me with a theater degree, living with my parents, and mooching off the government… sorry that doesn’t fit your narrative.

      But I’m sure you’ll come grips with the fact that socialism isn’t popular in America and it ALSO isn’t the root of all evil.

    • ISLAND BUCS

      Participant
      Post count: 3161

      From Fire

      (since I’ve worked in finance for 20+ years) and has found success in life…

      Fire aren’t you about 35 years old ?

      20 yrs in finance seems like a stretch.

      Didn’t you take music in your early college years?

      And are you not still paying on your college loan?

      doesn’t seem like over-the-top success

      Remain intimately at the heart of experience.

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        I’m 36. I started working at a bank at 18.

        So you’re right 18, not 20 years.

        I worked all through college, multiple jobs including teaching.

        I also worked abroad in teaching for a year so call it 16 years.

        Thanks for calling out my hyperbole

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      And are you not still paying on your college loan?

      Why would I?

      I can get better returns than paying down that debt. I can invest in real estate, or my 401k, or my brokerage account.

      I can put money into my property. I can create rental income.

      Why pay down student loan debt? Is that how you measure success?

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1451

      And are you not still paying on your college loan?

      Why would I?

      I can get better returns than paying down that debt. I can invest in real estate, or my 401k, or my brokerage account.

      I can put money into my property. I can create rental income.

      Why pay down student loan debt? Is that how you measure success?

      Don’t you think that’s dishonest? Also hypocritical?

      You advocate for all kinds of Government programs yet you don’t feel the need to meet your financial obligations to that same Govt? That money could be used for some other kid who wants to go to college. In the same breath, you brag how it has enabled you to be highly successful and own multiple properties.

      But then again, isn’t that the hallmark of your modern Democrat? Rip off the Govt and make yourself rich.

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        I’m not understanding your point. You’re saying I should, pay my loans off first because I’m liberal?

        I fund all sorts of vehicles… 529 and Roth as well.

        My student loans have taken a backseat because the interest is tax deductible. With the moratorium ending I’m sitting on enough cash to pay it off but wondering if I should do that or a kitchen remodel.

        Ahhh the choices or making sound financial decisions and taking ownership in what you do and how you invest in yourself 😎

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Rip off the Govt and make yourself rich.

      Don, is that you?

    • Coffeeisland

      Participant
      Post count: 743

      I’m not understanding your point. You’re saying I should, pay my loans off first because I’m liberal?

      I fund all sorts of vehicles… 529 and Roth as well.

      My student loans have taken a backseat because the interest is tax deductible. With the moratorium ending I’m sitting on enough cash to pay it off but wondering if I should do that or a kitchen remodel.

      Ahhh the choices or making sound financial decisions and taking ownership in what you do and how you invest in yourself 😎

      So you are saying that reducing or eliminating a burdensome financial obligation is a sound financial decision? You are saying using the money you would have paid back your student loan with can be better spent increasing your net worth? Will the mechanics of those strategies and the fruits of the increased investments demand tax payments <, = or > than the interest payments you deferred.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Makes more sense to pay down debt in a bear market…

      My property has increased dramatically in value… far far more than the interest acrued on my student loans since them.

      Been a bull market for 13 years.

      A correction is due but still… I’ll take calculated risks all day over paying a 50k loan at 5%

    • Coffeeisland

      Participant
      Post count: 743

      Interesting

      Has the majority of increased property value been a natural market increase? Or have improvements(investments) to the property given it a more substantial boost?

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        Combo of both. Sweat equity would probably act more as a multiplier than anything when you factor it in.

        Bought property 5 years ago. 320k and primary residence. Saved for a 2nd home, bought that with only 5%. Refinanced it last year down to 2.4%…

        Original home that I bought for 320k and now 450k not factoring in improvements so… perhaps get lucky and get 5 for it but I’ve been renting it.

        New house gone up in value in a major way too.

        13 years of advantages out there to take if you save/invest wisely.

    • ISLAND BUCS

      Participant
      Post count: 3161

      Fire:

      If you are investing the money at a greater return,

      then it does make sense to make minimum payments

      on the college loan.

      Most people who started with little and ended up with a lot

      had periods of large debt.

      Remain intimately at the heart of experience.

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        For many Americans, Dave Ramsay’s philosophy works quite well.

        Combined household income under 100k and I agree with being debt free (within reason).

        But debt is a form of leverage. Empires are built on debt.

        I have a 50k degree that got my foot in the door for a coordinator position. I worked my way up.

        Without that degree, a way to leverage my standing, who knows where I’d be…

        The problem with college is that people go there without a plan. Which is in large part a function of poor parenting.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      From Fire

      (since I’ve worked in finance for 20+ years) and has found success in life…

      Fire aren’t you about 35 years old ?

      20 yrs in finance seems like a stretch.

      Didn’t you take music in your early college years?

      And are you not still paying on your college loan?

      doesn’t seem like over-the-top success

      Fire thinks we don’t know that “working in finance” is what all the art appreciation majors who decided to try to raise a family and acquire anything more than a van they can park down by the river, end up doing.

      Fire, true to his politics at least passed on the usual “sales” position and stuck with corporate social worker…. Benefits/HR.

      Fire, I don’t mock you for doing an honest days work and figuing out how to best maximize your education but spare me the “financial expert” nonsense.

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1451

      For many Americans, Dave Ramsay’s philosophy works quite well.

      This is the philosophy we used and is the reason we are debt free.

      Oh, and one of the over riding principles of Dave Ramsay is to pay off debt, not to take on more debt or sacrifice it to invest in other things. That’s purely personal debt btw, I understand business does it all the time.

      You are saying using the money you would have paid back your student loan with can be better spent increasing your net worth?

      This was my point, although probably looking at it not as a question. I don’t have an issue with liberals bettering themselves, I was just raising the point that after taking advantage of the program, you could pay it back as diligently as you can so that others could take advantage of it, yet you chose not to, and do what was best for yourself instead. At the least it gives the appearance that everyone needs to pay their fair share, except you. Believe it or not I am not being snarky, I just can’t think of another way of putting it.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      Combo of both. Sweat equity would probably act more as a multiplier than anything when you factor it in.

      Bought property 5 years ago. 320k and primary residence. Saved for a 2nd home, bought that with only 5%. Refinanced it last year down to 2.4%…

      Original home that I bought for 320k and now 450k not factoring in improvements so… perhaps get lucky and get 5 for it but I’ve been renting it.

      New house gone up in value in a major way too.

      13 years of advantages out there to take if you save/invest wisely.

      Yeah big deal. I own a house free and clear that I bought for 62k in 2009 that is now worth 350k+.

      At 5% interest I would have paid somewhere near 30k in interest by now assuming a 30 year mortgage.

      Now it’s possible that if I’d have put 62k in the market in 2009 I’d have quadrupled my money by now but I’d still be about 100k short of where I am now. That’s not even counting not paying rent for the 7 years I lived in the house or the rental income since.

      My point is that it’s not a simple answer that any financial person save a really slick salesman is going to honestly answer. Returns are not guaranteed. There is always somebody arguing against paying off debt because they can make more money on something else but I’ve found that in my business I never discourage paying down debt. I just focus on the numbers. Here’s what the loan is costing you every year, here is what you can get on a CD or other guaranteed vehicle then here’s all the speculative stuff. Then there’s the cashflow consequences that are different for everyone. Now I don’t sell investments so that makes it easier for me than some. What I like about paying down debt is that it’s provable. You can calculate the savings and bank on them.

      Now I agree with prioritizing paying debt based on the interest rates. I don’t see a moral obligation to pay a student loan sooner when you have better options. But I suspect it has something to do with the idea that all student loans may be eventually forgiven…. a lot like the mentality of the migrants right now. The ideas of loan forgiveness, easy asylum, path to citizenship change behavior.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Paying down all your debt is a low-risk approach. Nothing wrong with it.

      I’ve chosen to take a higher risk approach and I’ve benefited from it.

      My student loans are 50k and I’m debating paying off some of them. It would be quite foolish to pay it off if a forgiveness plan was enacted. You can bitch all you like but I’m playing the cards I’m dealt… you have no problem with folks abusing the tax code so maybe think of it more along those terms.

      In the end I’ll probably pay them off instead of investing that money or the kitchen remodel.

      Now

      Jbear

      If you wanna go toe-to-toe on financial acumen, let’s fucking do it. I welcome your challenge. I’m certain that I know more, and candidly I bet my success deep down makes you more angry than you’d care to admit.

      So by all means let’s do this, and let’s see where it takes us.

      Where should we start?

      How about transitory inflation? Or are numbers too scary for you?

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      Paying down all your debt is a low-risk approach. Nothing wrong with it.

      I’ve chosen to take a higher risk approach and I’ve benefited from it.

      My student loans are 50k and I’m debating paying off some of them. It would be quite foolish to pay it off if a forgiveness plan was enacted. You can bitch all you like but I’m playing the cards I’m dealt… you have no problem with folks abusing the tax code so maybe think of it more along those terms.

      In the end I’ll probably pay them off instead of investing that money or the kitchen remodel.

      Now

      Jbear

      If you wanna go toe-to-toe on financial acumen, let’s fucking do it. I welcome your challenge. I’m certain that I know more, and candidly I bet my success deep down makes you more angry than you’d care to admit.

      So by all means let’s do this, and let’s see where it takes us.

      Where should we start?

      How about transitory inflation? Or are numbers too scary for you?

      Lol

      Go for it Fire…wow the cove with your financial acumen. I dare you.

    • Coffeeisland

      Participant
      Post count: 743

      Real quick before you guys get into this…

      Can I get an opinion on why someone can defer loan payments to the government and then at the end of the day actually pay more to the government through taxes by using the would be loan payment funds to invest in other areas?

      And why does that work out for the individual but not for a business that would otherwise invest their would be tax dollars?

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        I’m not sure if this is rhetorical or not…

        Instead of my payments I took that monthly payment and saved it in am online savings account.

        Acted as if I was paying but didn’t during the freeze.

        Every penny counts…

        As far as your tax question you’ll have to elaborate because I’m not sure what you’re asking

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Great @jbear!

      Let’s start with your experience in finance.

      I seem to remember a year ago you investing in, and correct me if I’m wrong, oil commodities or something in that sector… and that you lost money and said something to the effect of “I’m not sure how anyone can make money doing this”.

      That was you right…? Paraphrasing of course.

      But I’ll also give you kudos for selling Hylion at the top as it is back down around $10…

      So maybe those two offset?

      Where did you learn finance? Indulge me

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      Great @jbear!

      Let’s start with your experience in finance.

      I seem to remember a year ago you investing in, and correct me if I’m wrong, oil commodities or something in that sector… and that you lost money and said something to the effect of “I’m not sure how anyone can make money doing this”.

      That was you right…? Paraphrasing of course.

      But I’ll also give you kudos for selling Hylion at the top as it is back down around $10…

      So maybe those two offset?

      Where did you learn finance? Indulge me

      That barely resembles anything close to what happened. First of all until a year and a half ago I was an employee and had an employee sponsored retirement plan in which my investment choices were limited. So I did not consider myself an active investor personally. Once I got my Trump money in March of 2020 I decided to open a brokerage account because I didn’t need the money. This was right after the market tanked. I bought 1000 shares of Marathon Oil (MRO) at $3.89. I sold those 1000 shares in April of 2021 for $11.23/sh. So the oil stock was probably down a bit at some point and I complained about it but I didn’t sell until much later and made a tidy profit.

      Hylion was the first spac I found and was lucky to make money because that thing created a lot of bag holders. I still hold 500 shares with a cost of $18/sh but I sold most for a profit and only held a few shares that I considered free since I got back my initial investment plus. Since I started investing for myself, I funded my IRA two years so 12k investment and hold 26k in the IRA as of today. The brokerage account which I’ve dumped whatever I could into… the Trump money the Dementia Joe money… is worth about 30k with an investment of somewhere around 15k.

      I don’t consider that bad at all but I don’t claim to be an investment guru. I’m a newb who does my DD and has so far been lucky.

      Second of all my degree is in accounting so I had plenty of finance and related classes.

      As for finance background, One of my early jobs was as an assistant to a financial advisor. Mostly just being nice to people and filling out the paperwork… reviewing the statements and understanding how to read them which I used when I switched careers and became a tax advisor. Most of what I know about finance I learned on the job, through licensing and CE and just a lot of reading and having great mentors when I was young. On the job I did just about anything a client would ask for. Bookeeping, Amortization schedules for loans, reviewing and extracting necessary information from loan statements. creating financial statements from scratch using excell with a bunch of giberish written on 4 cocktail napkins. whatever.

      I’ve also always been asked a lot about credit. Lot’s of people have terrible credit and can’t seem to understand how it all works. I would say I mostly learned how to advise about credit on the job as it’s not really in my job description. In my 20’s when I started, I didn’t have perfect credit either but through research and reading so that I could speak intelligently about it I taught myself the in’s and outs.

      So yes, I would say that I have a fair understanding of finance at least on the personal/small business side.

      But even if you’ve got a PHD in finance, the fact of the matter is that much of the stuff we’re talking about here really is subjective. Even you admit in a few places that you’re just deciding to take some risk. You don’t know how it’s going to work out although you think it will work out better for you. Maybe it will.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      Real quick before you guys get into this…

      Can I get an opinion on why someone can defer loan payments to the government and then at the end of the day actually pay more to the government through taxes by using the would be loan payment funds to invest in other areas?

      And why does that work out for the individual but not for a business that would otherwise invest their would be tax dollars?

      Are you talking about capital gains taxes? Anyway, investment interest has some special treatments in different entities, partnerships, corporations, and S-corporations. In a regular corporation investment income gets taxed twice. Once in the corporation and then again at the personal level. In the partnerships and S-corporations the investment income just passes out to the individual partners or shareholders and is not taxed twice but is taxed to the individual. So you wouldn’t want to hold investments in a regular corporation and there isn’t much point to holding them in a partnership or S-corp either. Unless there are special circumstances which there always are for someone.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      You know what… I respect that experience a lot and I both apologize and take back what I said.

      Well done

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1451

      You know what… I respect that experience a lot and I both apologize and take back what I said.

      Well done

      Now, now, careful there, I might start getting to like you!!

    • ISLAND BUCS

      Participant
      Post count: 3161

      The “Bear” turns out to not only be physically big

      but experienced in the financial field,

      better than the average bear.

      Remain intimately at the heart of experience.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 4473

      You know what… I respect that experience a lot and I both apologize and take back what I said.

      Well done

      Well you don’t really have to. I also respect your experience doing what you do.

      I really enjoy the snark and rudeness on a message board. One of the very very few things I actually like about you Fire is that you don’t take it too personally. It’s all in jest…. except when I kindof do mean to be rude, which is still in jest anyway.

    • Kermit56

      Participant
      Post count: 344

      You know what… I respect that experience a lot and I both apologize and take back what I said.

      Well done

      Daggum it Fire!! With replies like this you’re making it difficult to have an antagonist on this board.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Not sure how any can get too worked up about a message board 🤷‍♂️

      I enjoy the debates so keep em coming.

      The main reason I’m here isn’t actually to debate but rather experience those who think differently.

      And yeah, sometimes I’m a prick when I do it… but it’s all in good fun

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      Luckily for Biden, most big government liberals don’t hold him responsible for any of this:

      https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ppi.nr0.htm

      On an unadjusted basis, the final demand index moved up 7.8 percent for the 12 months ended in July, the largest advance since 12-month data were first calculated in November 2010.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      We already knew this would happen when you botch a pandemic and have to infuse money into the system to keep the economy afloat.

      The question is whether it is permanent or transitory.

      Just as an example, demand will dip with covid variant back… so of course oil prices dip 4%.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/09/oil-prices-fall-4percent-on-rising-global-covid-cases-continuing-slide-following-worst-week-since-october.html

      This goes back to how you assign credit or blame.

      Was Obama to blame for the Great Recession and the subsequent money that needed to be infused to save the economy? Or was that a function of GWB deregulation policy + tax cuts?

      That’s rhetorical so…

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      The question is whether it is permanent or transitory.

      This would be a bigger question if not the close to $10T in spending this administration and Congress are wanting to pass this month. It’s tough to argue transitory with those kinds of dollars being printed in such a short time frame.

    • RK Barrett

      Participant
      Post count: 1442

      The die was cast long ago, another sign of broken government. But, you cannot be both a deficit hawk and a Trump supporter, especially the tax cut. Trumps legacy will be 600k dead sadly, but right behind that will be the debt

      “ Trump’s most enduring legacy could be the historic rise in the national debt”

      It rose almost $7.8 trillion during his time in the White House — approaching World War II levels, relative to the size of the economy.”

      (If we are lucky that will be his legacy)

      Your also CANNOT come out of what was effectively a prolonged economic shutdown without inflation. It’s impossible. Business and consumers seeking scarce goods = inflation

      Temporary on some levels, permanent on others. Hell, the pandemic even changed the American consumer and culture so pricing? Pfft

    • TheChronicHotAir

      Participant
      Post count: 6041

      Wrong.

      The economy was already fully rebounding while The Lord Jesus Trump was IN OFFICE.
      The Far Left CURRENT spending spree is simply out of selfishness- entirely from the Trash(D)Party.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      Inflation, by the law of averages, was already due for a major increase… assuming 3%/year when recently that hasn’t happened.

      Printing money will cause inflation of course… when I say temporary I mean where it currently stands or will it regress to an increased inflation but within the expected models of 3%.

      The cause of the bailouts was botching the pandemic, not taking it seriously, mocking science, mocking the vaccine, spreading disinformation, etc.

      To deny that is asinine. To assign the blame to Biden is even more asinine.

      The main cause was not cutting spending during an expansion and instead giving tax cuts to the wealthy… combined with a the botched pandemic and of course the “Donald Pump” stock market which created a temporary bubble as P/E ratios across the board are quite awful. You expect that with growth stocks but not large cap.

      It’s a combo of things. Could Biden balance the budget and Reign in spending? Yes… is it the right thing? Hard call… everyone was saying pull out of the middle east and he did… now that was the “wrong move” so…

      Cake and eat it too

    • TheChronicHotAir

      Participant
      Post count: 6041

      It’s so sad that runt ftgFauci hid the origins of the KillerVirus.

      “It came from the f###ing chocolate factory!!” ~ Jon Stewart

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        Uhhh I guess you haven’t seen this:

        Shocker. It wasn’t on the Qanon website

    • TheChronicHotAir

      Participant
      Post count: 6041

      Fauci knew the capabilities of HIS Virus– and yet, in the beginning stages, he advised the White House NOT to shut down travel.

      #Faucibotched #FauciCAUSED

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        It is appropriate that the devout follower of someone that cannot take any responsibility in life would also blame someone else.

        Killing 600k+ people for mocking the virus is why we have this inflation.

        Great job dipshit

    • TheChronicHotAir

      Participant
      Post count: 6041

      You’re dumb.

      It came from your Idol Fauci’s lab.

      He botched everything.

      Biden letting the Far Left hijack the demoncratic party has resulted in this CURRENT, selfish spending spree.

      • FireLicht2020

        Participant
        Post count: 7272

        Whether or not it came from a lab, doesn’t change the fact that Trump didn’t take it seriously.

        The two facts are not mutually exclusive.

    • RK Barrett

      Participant
      Post count: 1442

      This type of deflection has to be named The MAGA Fallacy because it’s used by Trumpers ALL THE TIME

      doesn’t change the fact that Trump didn’t take it seriously.

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6674

      Again, why aren’t people going back to work isn’t as simple as the extended unemployment benefits:

      https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/nobel-winning-poverty-researcher-on-why-people-wont-go-back-to-work-.html

      For a third time. Read it

      You can post it a fourth time if you, but it’s not going change that it’s a bunch touchy-feely horseshit like this:

      But Duflo was clear that soundbites about “lazy” Americans are wrong. People may, in fact, need more time to pick the right job and, in many instances, relocate for a job.

      That broad sounds more like a big government social worker than an economist.

      Boy, you sure are critical of Biden extending unemployment…

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7272

      While you’re on this thread, feel free to respond to my point of corporate tax revenue…or don’t. Be a beta…

      Re: unemployment extension

      I’ve already stated I don’t support it. However I do not think it black and white. I see context, which I provided to you.

      Empathy… try it some time!

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