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    • Uncle Stan

      Participant
      Post count: 133

      How many times have we heard that in our football lives?It has been repeated over and over and over until it has been drummed into our heads that  this is a basic given  number 1 fact.Except the Bucs have chosen to ignore it  >:(I read this and that article about how we are improved over last year. I might agree with that, in some areas, but not the trenches. Tom Jones doesn't even discuss it. None of the local media are trumpeting the problem and our coach publicly ignores it. Posters on these board mention it occasionally. I feel its being glossed overTedford may be the greatest OC ever, but we will never know if something isn't done about the OL.Defensive line the right side is certainly in good hands, but the left side is still suspect. Not bad, but not as good as the right side, but there is genuine hope that coaching can bring them up to at least average.Now the OL. Both starting tackles and the center are set and there is nothing to worry about. We have NO starting guards and no depth. So how is this revamped offense supposed to work with, realistically, not even average offensive line?We won't make 8-8 with this OL.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

          Patience, sir. Keep an eye on http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10991291/alex-boone-san-francisco-49ers-wants-new-contract-absent-otas. And there may be other opportunities for a trade during the summer…

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Ignore it? Disagree completely. Now you may not agree with how they have addressed it, but we signed 3 FA OL, 2 of which have really good film. We brought back our RT, who most think is a very solid player. We also drafted 2 guys .  And we re-signed Meredith, who has looked good at times. So while we don’t have any healthy superstar guards, we certainly have not ignored the trenches.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

          Patience, sir. Keep an eye on http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10991291/alex-boone-san-francisco-49ers-wants-new-contract-absent-otas. And there may be other opportunities for a trade during the summer...

      alex Boone was undrafted, and we have fans wanting to offer a 3rd for him. OL can come from anywhere, not just early draft picks.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2829

      Individual offensive linemen are over-rated. OL coach is more important and and protection and the run game can be schemed. I don’t know much about Warhop but it’s concerning that he’s been fired so many times.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      Good playcalling and good quarterbacks make offensive lines look better. If the Tedford can keep defenses off balance and not be as predictable as Schiano and if McCown can get rid of the ball on time, not run into sacks, and not wilt under pressure like Glennon, things will be fine.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1357

      I’m not so confident with our line either Stan, I just cannot be sunshine and rainbows with the guard situation.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      It all begins in my britches!

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

          No question O’line is a TEAM effort. If 1 guy screws up, the other 4 making perfect blocks may not help save the play. A mobile QB can save a bad block, but no good coach wants to depend on that.    Yeah, Warhop is the assistant I have the least assurance over. Not saying he's a bad hire; just don't know about him. Kind of an unknown, as he has been on the short end of the stick a few times. I don't think he was Lovie's first choice; came in much later than the other assistants...

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    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      Our line suked after we made it one of the highest paid in the league across the board a couple years back. We we’re hyped to be one of the best and sucked.Sometimes what appears like improvement is not.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      One year we pay too much attention to guards, the next not enough

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1110

      I have the same concerns Stan has.  I would have drafted Gabe Jackson in round 3 in stead of Charles Sims.  Apparently, we’re going to throw the ball much more than I prefer, with many passes to the TE’s and RB’s, and therefore the new OL were selected for pass pro more so than the running game.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      If they get the screen plays going, I’m not gonna worry about the line … until they give me reason.I watched a few of the Cal Bears games to focus on their running game.  As long as the o-line played in unison, they were good.  If the Bucs don't do that, I'll worry...

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 11045

      They have a new position coach, signed 3 players on the OLine, carried over some developmental guys, cut dead weight, and drafted 2 more. You may not like the names right now but they’ve addressed it. Wait to see what the unit looks like with pads on.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      The first few games are going to make you think they suck.A dramatic overhaul like this requires patience. They brought in new guys to get rid of the failing old ones. If the new guys can't improve during this season, they will be replaced.It's a starting point. No more, no less. They should tighten the screws as time goes by.There is/was literally nothing else they could have done imo. Had they kept the guys that were already here...they still would suck. If they had drafted top ol talent, there is growing pains and other positions would have been ignored...and still, they would suck.Rome wasnt built in a day, but at least we know where our starting point is.. A group of guys who are semitalented, that will have to work together from the ground up. It's always important to know your lot in life.This way, ..we KNOW it will improve eventually.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2962

      I wanted Jackson in round 2 as well, but they did address the situation. We have big questions at G and at T as far as depth goes. However, the offseason isn’t over, there is plenty of time to add guys through cuts and such. There’s also plenty of time for guys like Edwards to surprise us and become a solid starter.I'm not as concerned about Warhop getting fired, he was a victim of a complete overhaul in Cleveland.I also don't agree that no one in the media is talking about our line, I think pretty much everyone ackowledges the question marks we have.We've definitely built a line this offseason that is focused more on the passing game than the running game, so that's interesting. Both EDS and Collins are known for their pass blocking more so than their run blocking. Should be interesting.

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      How many times have we heard that in our football lives?It has been repeated over and over and over until it has been drummed into our heads that  this is a basic given  number 1 fact.Except the Bucs have chosen to ignore it  >:(I read this and that article about how we are improved over last year. I might agree with that, in some areas, but not the trenches. Tom Jones doesn't even discuss it. None of the local media are trumpeting the problem and our coach publicly ignores it. Posters on these board mention it occasionally. I feel its being glossed overTedford may be the greatest OC ever, but we will never know if something isn't done about the OL.Defensive line the right side is certainly in good hands, but the left side is still suspect. Not bad, but not as good as the right side, but there is genuine hope that coaching can bring them up to at least average.Now the OL. Both starting tackles and the center are set and there is nothing to worry about. We have NO starting guards and no depth. So how is this revamped offense supposed to work with, realistically, not even average offensive line?We won't make 8-8 with this OL.

      Perhaps the BEST post I have seen since my arrival to this board. (as evidenced by my road-grader thread)  It really does start with the OL for us.  WE need US Certified CHOICE ANGUS BEEF on that OL who are cabable of punching holes in cement block.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2188

      If the Bucs biggest need is OG, then we’re in good shape. You can literally pull guys off the street and play G. The Bucs addressed the high value positions this offseason including the trenches (DE, DT, C, OT, WR, CB, QB).  LT, C, and RT are more than solid. Meredith played very well at RG two years ago. They'll find a quality LG if Nicks can't go.Sure beats worrying about who will play WR or DE or QB.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      The acquisitions of Emett Cleary, Jace Daniels, Jason Foster, Anthony Collins, Evan Dietrich-Smith, Andrew Miller, Matt Patchan, Kadeem Edwards & Kevin Pamphile would, in my mind, debunk any theory that Lovie is ignoring the trenches.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Perhaps the BEST post I have seen since my arrival to this board. (as evidenced by my road-grader thread)  It really does start with the OL for us.  WE need US Certified CHOICE ANGUS BEEF on that OL who are cabable of punching holes in cement block.

      i think we all like the idea of road graders…but is that really what we need? Why can’t we need guys to get in front of defenders…to shield guys, box out.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      The acquisitions of Emett Cleary, Jace Daniels, Jason Foster, Anthony Collins, Evan Dietrich-Smith, Andrew Miller, Matt Patchan, Kadeem Edwards & Kevin Pamphile would, in my mind, debunk any theory that Lovie is ignoring the trenches.

      Other than Collins and Dietrich-Smith, they are only a list of names. None rated very high.  Camp fodder.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Other than Collins and Dietrich-Smith, they are only a list of names. None rated very high.  Camp fodder.

      are you under the belief that every position needs to be a highly rated player?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      If the Bucs biggest need is OG, then we're in good shape. You can literally pull guys off the street and play G.

      Agreed.  The holes at OG are nothing new.  These scrubs are going to be much worse, if at all, than Davin Joseph.  This was proven every time he was injured and replaced with a scrub.

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    • brycen54

      Participant
      Post count: 636

      Skull and Bones: "It all begins in my britches!""Trenches" pretty well covered that scenario already.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      If the Bucs biggest need is OG, then we're in good shape. You can literally pull guys off the street and play G.

      You are joking, right. If you are right why did we get rid of Jopseph?And that why a good part of the reason our offense can't get off the ground.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      Other than Collins and Dietrich-Smith, they are only a list of names. None rated very high.  Camp fodder.

      are you under the belief that every position needs to be a highly rated player?

      No, but I sure would like to see at least some average talent so we can build with it to become something great.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 894

      Unc, well stated as always. Me, I’m concerned and as Hate said, I think they ae in Phase One for the Oline, what with FA’s and Draft picks acquired. After the OTA’s I think they assess the market for Round Two FA’s that have some tread life that come on the cheap and they bring them in for a look see. Maybe we pick one of many auditions. Then to finalize the year, I think they go for Phase Three which is to poach another team’s practice squad for a hidden gem to be used for depth, training and a possible replacement for Nicks or Meridith next year. In summary, it ain’t over yet IMHO.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4140

      Ignored?  Not really.  Resolved.  Not even.The oline is definitely an area of concern.  Dline will be fine.*puts away crystal ball*

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 655

      There have been some pretty good Guards who were signed as FA coming out of college.Alex Boone is one of them.I would prefer to have Gabe Jackson, but I am willing to acknowledge that L&L have done good so far. Maybe they felt Jackson was too slow.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

          The G I mentioned, Alex Boone, started as a UDFA. One of our current Gs, Patrick Omameh, was taken from (you guessed it) the 49ers PS by Dominik last season. Jamon Meredith, who played well most of 2012 at RG with Joseph out, was a 5th round pick of the Bills.     We are at least TRYING to develop a young G or two...     G is generally slotted by teams as one of the lower-paying positions on an NFL team. Hence the uproar when we paid huge $$$ fro Joseph & Nicks...

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

      Unc, well stated as always. Me, I'm concerned and as Hate said, I think they ae in Phase One for the Oline, what with FA's and Draft picks acquired. After the OTA's I think they assess the market for Round Two FA's that have some tread life that come on the cheap and they bring them in for a look see. Maybe we pick one of many auditions. Then to finalize the year, I think they go for Phase Three which is to poach another team's practice squad for a hidden gem to be used for depth, training and a possible replacement for Nicks or Meridith next year. In summary, it ain't over yet IMHO.

      Yep, a new coach wants to see just what he’s got in the cupboard. G’s, probably more than any position, can be developed. No need to go investing big $$$ (which they would be with a hi draft pick) out of the gate. It does take patience…

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      The acquisitions of Emett Cleary, Jace Daniels, Jason Foster, Anthony Collins, Evan Dietrich-Smith, Andrew Miller, Matt Patchan, Kadeem Edwards & Kevin Pamphile would, in my mind, debunk any theory that Lovie is ignoring the trenches.

      Other than Collins and Dietrich-Smith, they are only a list of names. None rated very high.  Camp fodder.

      the last few years have shown us that high rated means nothing!!!

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      The sky is falling in May, over guards…smh.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      This is the big issue … the only big issue we have. OG. I do agree that a good OL coach goes a long way but if it were me personally I would have drafted OG in the 3rd round and the 5th. We will have to see how they look in TC but I am basically desperate for at least one starting caliber OG. I believe you can patch up one of those OG spots but not both of them. Teams like the Bucs that never invest early draft picks on OL always suck offensively. Its really quite basic. You need great players to stop other great players. Here is hoping that we can acquire a starting caliber OG before the season because we have zero. And even a great OL coach can only do so much. When facing a top tier defense that patchwork OL that looked okay vs. an average defense will suddenly look awful. Just like the 2010 season.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Why do you guys think licht, lovie, and tedford didn’t find it necessary to invest a big resource into the guard position? Because they don't understand football?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      Why do you guys think licht, lovie, and tedford didn't find it necessary to invest a big resource into the guard position?

      Its pretty obvious to me that they thought a pass catching RB was more important because that is who they drafted. But GT I am talking about a 3rd round pick, not a big resource. The Domink way of not drafting any OL and then spending big resources in free agency was a complete failure. Other teams who draft OL have great offenses. You really dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Its pretty obvious to me that they thought a pass catching RB was more important because that is who they drafted. But GT I am talking about a 3rd round pick, not a big resource. The Domink way of not drafting any OL and then spending big resources in free agency was a complete failure. Other teams who draft OL have great offenses. You really dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

      3rd round is still a very valuable resource imo.  Teams with great QBs have great offenses. Who are the broncos drafting? Who are the packers drafting?And did licht or lovie make statement about not drafting OL? I wouldn't assume they follow Dominick's way.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1170

      I am pretty worried about both lines.Offensively, the left and right guard positions are a massive question mark.Defensively, outside of McCoy and Johnson (who I believe will be good but did only have 3.5 sacks last year) there is nothing but that awesome "potential".

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      What amazes me are those clamoring for a ‘name’ at guard but feel we’re set with Glennon.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      So GT you think the strategy of signing old beat up OG’s like Joseph and Nicks was a better use of resources than drafting OL who would be young healthy and cheaper?Is money a resource in your book? Because if we had drafted OL we would be paying less for our entire OL right now than we are for one single free agent who has used up a lot of resources and has given us very little production in Carl Nicks ... who incidentally was a 5th round pick.

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    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      What amazes me are those clamoring for a 'name' at guard but feel we're set with Glennon.

      What's wrong with wanting to protect our future ?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      What amazes me are those clamoring for a 'name' at guard but feel we're set with Glennon.

      Don't believe I said "name",  think I used the word "rated", implying skill set.It is well known you don't like Glennon, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 209

      Why do you guys think licht, lovie, and tedford didn't find it necessary to invest a big resource into the guard position?

      Its pretty obvious to me that they thought a pass catching RB was more important because that is who they drafted. But GT I am talking about a 3rd round pick, not a big resource.

      Or maybe this particular pass catching RB was higher on their board than any G. I found it refreshing that they drafted a player, not a position.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      What amazes me are those clamoring for a 'name' at guard but feel we're set with Glennon.

      None of us know how the guards on this team will play in the future, either...

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

      Why do you guys think licht, lovie, and tedford didn't find it necessary to invest a big resource into the guard position?

      Its pretty obvious to me that they thought a pass catching RB was more important because that is who they drafted. But GT I am talking about a 3rd round pick, not a big resource.

      Or maybe this particular pass catching RB was higher on their board than any G. I found it refreshing that they drafted a player, not a position.

      Amen! They obviously didn’t regard the G’s available nearly as highly as Sims. Licht did say he was astounded Sims was still available. As a dynamic receiving threat he adds a dimension to our offense we did not have. With the best hands by a RB in the draft and a skilled runner he is FAR more than just a checkdown target, which is essentially all we had from our backs as receivers last season…

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Adding a guard and tackle in the FIFTH round is not exactly “attacking” the needs at OL (especially after cleaning house with the OL).  It’s a start, but next year, I want to see us spend our first two pics on the OL. One thing is very clear:  Lovie was blindsided by Nicks "failure to appear".  He was visibaly upset.  I honestly think that they thought Nicks would be ready to go.  Worse that than, they planned on it.  Nicks right now, in my opinion, is doing what he has to do to maximize his pay, and report that he is still injured. It's how the system is set up.  Regarless of that, he's stated many times that he will "never be 100% again".  He's done, and he's simply doing what he needs to do for his family.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      So GT you think the strategy of signing old beat up OG's like Joseph and Nicks was a better use of resources than drafting OL who would be young healthy and cheaper?Is money a resource in your book? Because if we had drafted OL we would be paying less for our entire OL right now than we are for one single free agent who has used up a lot of resources and has given us very little production in Carl Nicks ... who incidentally was a 5th round pick.

      I think the strategy of acquiring good players is the best. Whether it’s through the draft or free agency.  If nicks was healthy here i dont think many would complain too loud, but I also dont think we need the highest paid G in the league.I think too many get caught up in rankings and what kiper says.  I mean why does anyone know what Yankey or jackson does well? How does anyone know how their game will translate? How does anyone know what tedford is looking for in his guards? Lovies bears went OL in the first twice. Lichts cards took a guard top 10. They don't seem to be anti-OL. They just didn't like what was available. They aren't as worried as the fans. Why is that?Money and up to 4th round draft picks are valuable resources imo.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9276

      What amazes me are those clamoring for a 'name' at guard but feel we're set with Glennon.

      None of us know how the guards on this team will play in the future, either...

      I agree...hence no need for "the sky is falling tone" of some posts. We had 'names' at the guard position and they sucked. They have since been replaced yet there's this theory that the line is being ignored. I disagree.

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    • brycen54

      Participant
      Post count: 636

        “One thing is very clear:  Lovie was blindsided by Nicks “failure to appear”.  He was visibaly upset.  I honestly think that they thought Nicks would be ready to go.  Worse that than, they planned on it.”Geez, I hope things aren't the way you describe them; the staff sounds a bit incompetent in this light. Expecting Nicks to show would be naive. Depending on it would be stupid. I prefer to think they saw more value in other positions, and thought they could address the G spot with lesser resources.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Bucs fans have a right to have these debates, and truth be told, we have taken a lot of gambles with free agents.  The thinking now, seems to be, that in order for us to secure a solid OL, and have that OL for years to come, we really DO have to do what we did not do, and do what the Big Boys do, which is to guarnetee a great OL by taking superb early pics.  It may not be sexy, but it's time.  If not, we will have more of the same, which is an endless patchwork of  openings to keep filling.

      i certainly agree that debate is warranted, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.Fans clamored for offense and they got it! Now they just want to look for reasons to complain.One thing i did really like is your use of superb early picks.  Who's to say that the OL available to us were superb picks?  Kiper? Mcshay? YouTube?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      I PROMISE you, our first pick next year will be related to the OL.

      is TE related to the OL?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2412

      What amazes me are those clamoring for a 'name' at guard but feel we're set with Glennon.

      None of us know how the guards on this team will play in the future, either...

      I agree...hence no need for "the sky is falling tone" of some posts. We had 'names' at the guard position and they sucked. They have since been replaced yet there's this theory that the line is being ignored. I disagree.

      +1 Hate....The position has indeed been addressed, just not in the manner that some hoped for.  Guard could very well become the weakest link on the team but by mid season we could also be laughing at this thread.  There is more to an OL than just a player.  I have a feeling this offense will be more high tempo and less 5 and 7 step drops.  If the OL only needs to block for 2-3 seconds vice 5-7, it makes a BIG difference.  I too was hoping for a guard in the 3rd, but I'm also pleased to have Sims now.  At the very least, I'm not ready to declare all hope is lost and abandon the season already.  The team very well could end up 8-8 due to poor guard play; but it can also end up 6-10 with great guard play.  There are simply too many unknowns right now to declare anything. 

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    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      Lovie would be upset if any player didn’t show up ,  not just Nicks.You are expected to come to these things , especially when a new offense is being installed.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 120

      Unc, well stated as always. Me, I'm concerned and as Hate said, I think they ae in Phase One for the Oline, what with FA's and Draft picks acquired. After the OTA's I think they assess the market for Round Two FA's that have some tread life that come on the cheap and they bring them in for a look see. Maybe we pick one of many auditions. Then to finalize the year, I think they go for Phase Three which is to poach another team's practice squad for a hidden gem to be used for depth, training and a possible replacement for Nicks or Meridith next year. In summary, it ain't over yet IMHO.

      Yep, a new coach wants to see just what he's got in the cupboard. G's, probably more than any position, can be developed. No need to go investing big $$$ (which they would be with a hi draft pick) out of the gate. It does take patience...

      How about this guy; Chandler Burden been on three teams practice squads, looks like our kind of player, pretty good quicks and definitely strong. Has pretty short arms, might be his downfall. Just cut by Kansas Cityhttp://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=488589

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      Bucs fans have a right to have these debates, and truth be told, we have taken a lot of gambles with free agents.  The thinking now, seems to be, that in order for us to secure a solid OL, and have that OL for years to come, we really DO have to do what we did not do, and do what the Big Boys do, which is to guarnetee a great OL by taking superb early pics.  It may not be sexy, but it's time.  If not, we will have more of the same, which is an endless patchwork of  openings to keep filling.

      i certainly agree that debate is warranted, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.Fans clamored for offense and they got it! Now they just want to look for reasons to complain.One thing i did really like is your use of superb early picks.  Who's to say that the OL available to us were superb picks?  Kiper? Mcshay? YouTube?

      First off its a discussion not a complaint. The rest of the NFL is who decided that the 3rd round is where the value for OL was exceptional. Out of 32 picks in the 3rd round, 11 of them were on OL. I would expect more than a couple of them to start right away. But we are in good shape this year. Not like last year when we had so many holes and this exact same scenario played out where you questioned everyone else except for the front office and it turned out that ... we were 100% right about all of those issues.

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Lovie would be upset if any player didn't show up ,  not just Nicks.You are expected to come to these things , especially when a new offense is being installed.

      we all completely understand that, but Nicks stands to make considerably more money by injury than he would if he played.  I don't think a lot of people here understand that.  Lovie thought he would show...and work threw it.  He was caught off guard with the no show, which basically means, he's done here. I think Nicks always affirmed to Lovie behind closed doors that he would be here and play through it.  My guess is that his agent showed him the numbers though, and Nicks did what he had to do for his family.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Nicks stands to make considerably more money by injury than he would if he played. 

      explain?

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    • gobucs123

      Participant
      Post count: 569

      Yeah I don’t get it . Is there a clause in his contract that says he gets a bonus if he refuses to get off the couch  ??

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      .. we were 100% right about all of those issues.

      with such a success rate it’s a shame you aren’t a GM.

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Yeah I don't get it . Is there a clause in his contract that says he gets a bonus if he refuses to get off the couch  ??

      If he's hurt, that still guarantees his contract to a certain level, 6M I think.  if he gets cut, which is always a possibility, he'd get significantly less.

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