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    • LouisCarter

      Participant
      Post count: 97

      It’s generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.Winston's stats were 17-36 for 261 yards with a 7.2 per attempt average.if those 10 balls are caught that's a minimum of an extra 72 yards of production.Final stats: 27-36 for 333 yards and perhaps a couple of more touchdowns.Is this loss still on Jameis' shoulders?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5572

      Yep. He’s the QB and that’s how it works. I still think he’s playing well for a rookie, but games like this should be expected.It's his third NFL game, not his third year.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3316

      Holy crap this thread is epic fail.He played mediocre. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      I haven’t seen anyone say the loss is on him specifically. I have no problem with his play today. Sure he made a few mistakes, but big deal. He seems to be growing each week, which is all that matters in the big picture.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9128

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.Winston's stats were 17-36 for 261 yards with a 7.2 per attempt average.if those 10 balls are caught that's a minimum of an extra 72 yards of production.Final stats: 27-36 for 333 yards and perhaps a couple of more touchdowns.Is this loss still on Jameis' shoulders?

      Are you going to count the open receivers he whiffed on? Well, if we're going to do that; why don't we go back to the home opener. I wonder how the game would've turned out if Jameis's first NFL pass wasn't a pick-six that ended the game 5 minutes into the 1st quarter?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1110

      Absolutely not on Jameis.  However, there was very little pressure on Jameis by NFL standards.  Most NFL QB’s would have had success against a similar pass rush we saw today by the Texans.

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      Holy crap this thread is epic fail.He played mediocre.

      Holy crap....do the math genius.Ten drops will make any quarterback's statistics look pedestrian.  Ten drops will kill any momentum that an offense might try to establish.  Ten drops will ruin any groove that a quarterback may try to establish.Ten drops vs the 4 or 5 poor passes Winston threw are a poor tradeoff.If you've played the game or coached the game this would be obvious.

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.Winston's stats were 17-36 for 261 yards with a 7.2 per attempt average.if those 10 balls are caught that's a minimum of an extra 72 yards of production.Final stats: 27-36 for 333 yards and perhaps a couple of more touchdowns.Is this loss still on Jameis' shoulders?

      Are you going to count the open receivers he whiffed on? Well, if we're going to do that; why don't we go back to the home opener. I wonder how the game would've turned out if Jameis's first NFL pass wasn't a pick-six that ended the game 5 minutes into the 1st quarter?

      I absolutely count Jameis' poor throw and there were 4-5 of them.  Let's not forget that a few of those throws were caused by having to throw over and around JJ Watt and Clowney.  Because I'm sure you understand that pressure on QB's don't just mean getting sacks but making throws more difficult.As for game 1, I'm looking forward and looking for improvement....I've seen it from the OL and the QB the past few weeks.  I've even seen it from the defense as a whole.  Now the WR's need to come around.  Dare we hope for success by kick returners and the kicker?Winston is 3 games into his pro career and is a work in progress....

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      Absolutely not on Jameis.  However, there was very little pressure on Jameis by NFL standards.  Most NFL QB's would have had success against a similar pass rush we saw today by the Texans.

      Nothing wrong with their pass rush. The O-line was triple teaming JJ at times.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9128

      Holy crap this thread is epic fail.He played mediocre.

      Holy crap....do the math genius.Ten drops will make any quarterback's statistics look pedestrian.  Ten drops will kill any momentum that an offense might try to establish.  Ten drops will ruin any groove that a quarterback may try to establish.Ten drops vs the 4 or 5 poor passes Winston threw are a poor tradeoff.If you've played the game or coached the game this would be obvious.

      It will be tough to honestly debate this thread with the OP. My suggestion is that you wait for him to stop sitting down when he pisses and slap Winston's c0ck out of his mouth.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4344

      Yep. He's the QB and that's how it works. I still think he's playing well for a rookie, but games like this should be expected.It's his third NFL game, not his third year.

      yephe shoulders a bunch of the blame because hes the qb. fair or not it comes with the territoryhes improving every week in certain areas so we just have to be patient

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      Holy crap this thread is epic fail.He played mediocre.

      Holy crap....do the math genius.Ten drops will make any quarterback's statistics look pedestrian.  Ten drops will kill any momentum that an offense might try to establish.  Ten drops will ruin any groove that a quarterback may try to establish.Ten drops vs the 4 or 5 poor passes Winston threw are a poor tradeoff.If you've played the game or coached the game this would be obvious.

      It will be tough to honestly debate this thread with the OP. My suggestion is that you wait for him to stop sitting down when he pisses and slap Winston's c0ck out of his mouth.

      Genius comeback...care to join the convo or do you just want to act like a 15 year old.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2967

      The simpletons’ first reaction: It’s always the QB’s fault. Don't believe me? Just take a look at the folks saying it was on him. ^^^^^^

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1110

      Absolutely not on Jameis.  However, there was very little pressure on Jameis by NFL standards.  Most NFL QB's would have had success against a similar pass rush we saw today by the Texans.

      Nothing wrong with their pass rush. The O-line was triple teaming JJ at times.

      Clowney reminded of Eric Curry.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1507

      Jameis I thought looked pretty good today all things considered.Mike Evans played with his damn head up his ass.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4344

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      yes, I wouldin case you didn't see Mariota had another rough day. 2 INTs, 1 return for a TD. against a way worse defense. he put up nice numbers but he shoulders blame for a loss just like Winston doesim encouraged by what ive seen so far from all of our rookiesWinston is getting better incrementally every weekSmith and Marpet are still adjusting to the game but you see glimpsesAlexander got a pick and made some nice plays today and is improving on his mistakesits not like this was a good team to begin with and I expect all of them to struggle some with the poor coaching we have, the lack of discipline, and overall lack of talent

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      I would. I like the toughness and upside.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 124

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      Absolutely not on Jameis.  However, there was very little pressure on Jameis by NFL standards.  Most NFL QB's would have had success against a similar pass rush we saw today by the Texans.

      Nothing wrong with their pass rush. The O-line was triple teaming JJ at times.

      Clowney reminded of Eric Curry.

      When your best guy is getting triple teamed, then it falls on the rest of the line. They should of cleaned up.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      I would. I like the toughness and upside.

      Wow.  Just wow.  Pretty much says it all.  If you saw a first pick in the draft talent so far there's not much else left to say. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 124

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

      Translation: I can't think of a proper response to combat what you said. Go back and watch the games, Mariota hasn't been good.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      I would. I like the toughness and upside.

      Wow.  Just wow.  Pretty much says it all.  If you saw a first pick in the draft talent so far there's not much else left to say.

      Upside was the key word.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2630

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Yes, I would still take him first and over Mariota.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4344

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      I would. I like the toughness and upside.

      Wow.  Just wow.  Pretty much says it all.  If you saw a first pick in the draft talent so far there's not much else left to say.

      I don't know what you want. hes looked like a rookie on a bad team. both of them have. its what you expectyou're an idiot if you think a guy just comes in and looks amazing as a rookie. Andrew Luck did it and that's an aberration. that doesn't normally happenmost rookies come in and struggle. the difference here is that neither look like a Gabbert. both have shown they belong in the league and are on poor teams. they aren't getting a ton of help but they show glimpses of playmaking

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      Lol @ this thread.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

      Translation: I can't think of a proper response to combat what you said. Go back and watch the games, Mariota hasn't been good.

      This thread is based on pretend stats and you're asking for real analysis of a portion of a fan base that, and I'm not making this up, honestly thinks Winston looks good out there.  And MM was bad.  Wow. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      I have to agree with the winston crowd on this one.Despite about three or four bad passes, he played a good game. Especially for a rookie.If there is anyone or anything to blame, its lovie's defensive scheme, the kicker, evans, and the goalpost.And, while we are at it, the oline looked ok against that type of front line. It certainly could have looked worse.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

      Translation: I can't think of a proper response to combat what you said. Go back and watch the games, Mariota hasn't been good.

      This thread is based on pretend stats and you're asking for real analysis of a portion of a fan base that, and I'm not making this up, honestly thinks Winston looks good out there.  And MM was bad.  Wow.

      They both looked good today IMO. I believe MM had over 300 yards? I was just answering your question. I still would take Winston #1.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      I have to agree with the winston crowd on this one.Despite about three or four bad passes, he played a good game. Especially for a rookie.If there is anyone or anything to blame, its lovie's defensive scheme, the kicker, evans, and the goalpost.And, while we are at it, the oline looked ok against that type of front line. It certainly could have looked worse.

      All good point Bench. And thanks for no blue font stuff.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      Since this thread is about stats: MM has 833 yards 8 TDS and 2 picks in 3 games. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 124

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

      Translation: I can't think of a proper response to combat what you said. Go back and watch the games, Mariota hasn't been good.

      This thread is based on pretend stats and you're asking for real analysis of a portion of a fan base that, and I'm not making this up, honestly thinks Winston looks good out there.  And MM was bad.  Wow.

      Mariota has fumbled three times and thrown three interceptions in the last two weeks - that's not good, kiddo. Ok, so technically he's only thrown two interceptions, but he threw one of the worst passes I've ever seen right to a Cleveland defender last week that was only waved off because of a procedural penalty and that had nothing to do with the play. He got bailed out of an awful throw by the refs.Stop just looking at the raw numbers and pay attention to the alarming rate that Mariota has been fumbling and throwing bad passes all over the place the last two weeks. Tennessee could easily be 3-0 right now without all of his turnovers.

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

      Translation: I can't think of a proper response to combat what you said. Go back and watch the games, Mariota hasn't been good.

      This thread is based on pretend stats and you're asking for real analysis of a portion of a fan base that, and I'm not making this up, honestly thinks Winston looks good out there.  And MM was bad.  Wow.

      It's not pretend stats...there were at least 10 drops....watch the replay.Winston averaged 7.2 yards per attempt.  Extrapolate the stats and you will have a better understanding of what SHOULD have been.How are the possible stats made up or ridiculous?  You think 27-36 for a rookie quarterback means he had a bad game?  Ok, let's forget 50 percent of those drops.  22-36 for close to 300 yards are bad stats for a rookie quarterback in his 3rd game?Get outta here dude....

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Mariota has been bad the last two weeks, pay attention. And don't just look at his stats, he hasn't been good.

      Lol

      Translation: I can't think of a proper response to combat what you said. Go back and watch the games, Mariota hasn't been good.

      This thread is based on pretend stats and you're asking for real analysis of a portion of a fan base that, and I'm not making this up, honestly thinks Winston looks good out there.  And MM was bad.  Wow.

      Mariota has fumbled three times and thrown three interceptions in the last two weeks - that's not good, kiddo. Ok, so technically he's only thrown two interceptions, but he threw one of the worst passes I've ever seen right to a Cleveland defender last week that was only waved off because of a procedural penalty and that had nothing to do with the play. He got bailed out of an awful throw by the refs.Stop just looking at the raw numbers and pay attention to the alarming rate that Mariota has been fumbling and throwing bad passes all over the place the last two weeks. Tennessee could easily be 3-0 right now without all of his turnovers.

      Sorry but I laughed out loud watching MM try to make a tackle after a pick.  What a soft, soft dude.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3316

      Drops is a subjective stat.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9128

      The simpletons' first reaction: It's always the QB's fault. Don't believe me? Just take a look at the folks saying it was on him. ^^^^^^

      Show me where I say the loss is on him?Keep in mind...the OP has stated that Winston "played an excellent game".

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      You don't think there were 10 or more balls that hit an NFL receiver's hands today....but dropped?Did you watch the game?Forget the ten......as I said before how about 5 drops?  Cut the drops in half and be incredibly conservative....22-37 for 300 yards is bad for a rookie?

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      I want to get involved in this what if debate, but I'm not sure I know all the rules. If the WR makes a great catch on a bad throw, do we subtract the catch?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      I want to get involved in this what if debate, but I'm not sure I know all the rules. If the WR makes a great catch on a bad throw, do we subtract the catch?

      funny

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      I want to get involved in this what if debate, but I'm not sure I know all the rules. If the WR makes a great catch on a bad throw, do we subtract the catch?

      Sure you can get involved!  I'm assuming you are a Bucs fan because you have chosen to post on this board.Perhaps you can support the Bucs instead of being a snarky tool?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 648

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      What in the fuck are you watching?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      The source says it all.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      I want to get involved in this what if debate, but I'm not sure I know all the rules. If the WR makes a great catch on a bad throw, do we subtract the catch?

      Sure you can get involved!  I'm assuming you are a Bucs fan because you have chosen to post on this board.Perhaps you can support the Bucs instead of being a snarky tool?

      I was just asking a question. Can you answer it? Like the poor pass that Murphy had to come back for and dig out before it hit the turf? Do we subtract that pass in your rules?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 648

      This game was definitely Winston’s fault.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      This game was definitely Winston's fault.

      He helped, but he was like #4 on my list for today.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      What in the (censored) are you watching?

      Well, I watched one pass get thrown over the TE's head that he was lucky to get his hands on.  I watched Evans almost break his leg because the ball was so badly behind him and low. I watched another pass where the WR had to jump over the defender to get hands on the ball, at which point the defender knocks the ball out.  I watched another pass get thrown slightly high and behind Jackson, allowing the defender to breakup the play.  Passes defended aren't drops. High balls aren't drops. Balls thrown behind receivers aren't drops. The two legit drops in that video were balls thrown to the chest of Evans an Sheperd.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 10626

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      I want to get involved in this what if debate, but I'm not sure I know all the rules. If the WR makes a great catch on a bad throw, do we subtract the catch?

      Sure you can get involved!  I'm assuming you are a Bucs fan because you have chosen to post on this board.Perhaps you can support the Bucs instead of being a snarky tool?

      BP knows sports, book it.

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    • snidley

      Participant
      Post count: 415

      I don’t give a fuck where the ball is thrown, if it hits your hands you should catch it!! I watched College Football and NFL all weekend and QBs don’t throw perfect passes every snap but a good receiver should catch anything that touches his hands. The only pass that could be considered not on the reciever was the high pass to the TE. Penalties (Refs were horrible), Defense, Dropped passes on 3rd down, Winston missesThat's it! A lot of work is needed and I will also add that our WRs are running lazy routes, I don't see a sense of urgency with majority of them. Makes me sick!!

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      can you list the 10 that are generally agreed on?

      I want to get involved in this what if debate, but I'm not sure I know all the rules. If the WR makes a great catch on a bad throw, do we subtract the catch?

      Sure you can get involved!  I'm assuming you are a Bucs fan because you have chosen to post on this board.Perhaps you can support the Bucs instead of being a snarky tool?

      BP knows sports, book it.

      I think I'm going to use that title when I write my book. LOL

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 24

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      What in the (censored) are you watching?

      Well, I watched one pass get thrown over the TE's head that he was lucky to get his hands on.  I watched Evans almost break his leg because the ball was so badly behind him and low. I watched another pass where the WR had to jump over the defender to get hands on the ball, at which point the defender knocks the ball out.  I watched another pass get thrown slightly high and behind Jackson, allowing the defender to breakup the play.  Passes defended aren't drops. High balls aren't drops. Balls thrown behind receivers aren't drops. The two legit drops in that video were balls thrown to the chest of Evans an Sheperd.

      +1 I don't put this loss on Winston, but anyone that thinks more than those 2 passes in that video were drops has no business evaluating football.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      I don't give a (censored) where the ball is thrown, if it hits your hands you should catch it!! I watched College Football and NFL all weekend and QBs don't throw perfect passes every snap but a good receiver should catch anything that touches his hands. The only pass that could be considered not on the reciever was the high pass to the TE. Penalties (Refs were horrible), Defense, Dropped passes on 3rd down, Winston missesThat's it! A lot of work is needed and I will also add that our WRs are running lazy routes, I don't see a sense of urgency with majority of them. Makes me sick!!

      I hope some of the play of Evans today was due to rust. I also hope the team is not taking on Lovie's demeanor.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3420

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      What in the (censored) are you watching?

      Well, I watched one pass get thrown over the TE's head that he was lucky to get his hands on.  I watched Evans almost break his leg because the ball was so badly behind him and low. I watched another pass where the WR had to jump over the defender to get hands on the ball, at which point the defender knocks the ball out.  I watched another pass get thrown slightly high and behind Jackson, allowing the defender to breakup the play.  Passes defended aren't drops. High balls aren't drops. Balls thrown behind receivers aren't drops. The two legit drops in that video were balls thrown to the chest of Evans an Sheperd.

      +1 I don't put this loss on Winston, but anyone that thinks more than those 2 passes in that video were drops has no business evaluating football.

      Some throws were a little high and others the defense made a play. There's also something called throwing your WR open. Winston needs to work on that.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

          “Unfairness” is inherent in stats anyway you cut them. The Titans had 2 drops on 3rd down on their first 2 drives. And Mariota’s 1st pick happened after the TE caught the ball, took a step, and had it punched into the air and then intercepted. Since it never hit the ground, in the stats column it’s an INT, not a fumble…      As for Winston, he just looks slow to me, and has difficulty adjusting to defensive adjustments with his throws, which are often late, likely due to his slow delivery which gives defenders extra time to react. They are most often a step ahead of him.     TBH, I thought the O'line did a good job today; expected a lot worse!

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    • ZMan08151992

      Member
      Post count: 268

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Who cares dude...why you still dwelling on the past? A real fan support the QB they have....you only post when bucs lose.But anybody in their right state of mind that watched the game knows you can't pin this loss on Winston

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      is it gonna be like this through the end of time?  has anyone “blamed” winston for the loss?  but either making up lies, twisting the truth, or just not knowing what is expected out of our WRs isnt gonna help winstons case.he played OK.  the loss falls squarely on the shoulders of the team.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      is it gonna be like this through the end of time?  has anyone "blamed" winston for the loss?  but either making up lies, twisting the truth, or just not knowing what is expected out of our WRs isnt gonna help winstons case.he played OK.  the loss falls squarely on the shoulders of the team.

      Idk man, that kicker-boy left a LOT of points on the field.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      brindza for sure gets some blame.  doesnt change its a team game.  relying on FGs will (almost) always get you beat.

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 297

      If the draft were held again today, would anyone pick Winston first?  Anyone pick him over MM?

      Come back in about 2020, and if the answer is yes, you can put that baby to bed, until then, who knows.  You assume that three games in you can make a career assessment?  If you can you need to sign up for any of the  GM positions that will become available.  Long term reward is not 3 games.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      sure, we can make all the excuses we want for a QB.  but its not real life.  you want to make some excuse up about “throwing windows”?  how about jameis move clowney and watt OUT of his windows with his eyes, with footwork and pumps? if the defender is in the throwing lane, do you think is because the QB is either eyeballing the target or winding up? why not jameis pick another reciever who doesnt have a defender swatting the ball away before the receiver can bring it in?

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      sure, we can make all the excuses we want for a QB.  but its not real life.  you want to make some excuse up about "throwing windows"?  how about jameis move clowney and watt OUT of his windows with his eyes, with footwork and pumps? if the defender is in the throwing lane, do you think is because the QB is either eyeballing the target or winding up? why not jameis pick another reciever who doesnt have a defender swatting the ball away before the receiver can bring it in?

      So he should say "Mr. Clowney I'm rolling left would you please remain static....Mr. Watt please don't jump into my throwing window I have a 15 yard out in mind." You have 24,000 posts and I'd hope most of those aren't as vacuous as the past few.  You're arguing for the sake of arguing.  Why don't you recuse yourself from this discussion.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1110

      I wonder how Jameis’ stats would look like if we started counting defender’s drops as INT’s?  In other words, this is hogwash.

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      I wonder how Jameis' stats would look like if we started counting defender's drops as INT's?  In other words, this is hogwash.

      Defenders aren't paid to catch the ball.  They are paid to keep others from catching the ball.  And other than his one pick I don't remember any balls that defenders should have picked.But I'll tell you what, I'll make your trade.  Have the offensive guys catch the balls that hit their hands yesterday and let the defenders catch the balls that hit their hands.Winston would have still come out smelling like a rose.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9128

      I wonder how Jameis' stats would look like if we started counting defender's drops as INT's?  In other words, this is hogwash.

      Now, now...That's not fair. You can only make excuses if it results in Jameis looking good. Not the other way around.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      They didn't watch the game so they are going off of the stat line.  You can tell right way who watched the game and who didn't. It is like blaming Mariota for that INT yesterday.  Most NFL players and ex NFL players argue that should have gone down as a fumble on the stat sheet but the NFL considers that an INT.  If you didn't watch the game you would assume that Mariota threw an INT by just going by the stat sheet.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      They didn't watch the game so they are going off of the stat line.  You can tell right way who watched the game and who didn't. It is like blaming Mariota for that INT yesterday.  Most NFL players and ex NFL players argue that should have gone down as a fumble on the stat sheet but the NFL considers that an INT.  If you didn't watch the game you would assume that Mariota threw an INT by just going by the stat sheet.

      Are you referring to the perfect pass Mariota threw right at his receiver's chest that went right threw the guy's hands?  Yeah, that's a drop for the clueless among us.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      The evil PFF has weighed on the drops.  Buccaneer receivers had four drops vs. the Texans.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1110

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      The evil PFF has weighed on the drops.  Buccaneer receivers had four drops vs. the Texans.

      Four drops at the most.  The Texans' DB's made a lot of good plays on the ball.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      They didn't watch the game so they are going off of the stat line.  You can tell right way who watched the game and who didn't. It is like blaming Mariota for that INT yesterday.  Most NFL players and ex NFL players argue that should have gone down as a fumble on the stat sheet but the NFL considers that an INT.  If you didn't watch the game you would assume that Mariota threw an INT by just going by the stat sheet.

      Are you referring to the perfect pass Mariota threw right at his receiver's chest that went right threw the guy's hands?  Yeah, that's a drop for the clueless among us.

      It seems like you are nerd raging again. You can't go by the stat line which is clear that a lot of people did to pass judgement.  Just like a lot of the penalties yesterday were bogus.People are blaming the corner backs, but the Bucs corner backs as Moose put in the broadcast played a brilliant game.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      The evil PFF has weighed on the drops.  Buccaneer receivers had four drops vs. the Texans.

      Four drops at the most.  The Texans' DB's made a lot of good plays on the ball.

      Agreed the Texans DBs and Bucs DBs both had good games yesterday. I counted five drops in yesterday's game and most of them came from Evans.Evans will improve with more playing time.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      They didn't watch the game so they are going off of the stat line.  You can tell right way who watched the game and who didn't. It is like blaming Mariota for that INT yesterday.  Most NFL players and ex NFL players argue that should have gone down as a fumble on the stat sheet but the NFL considers that an INT.  If you didn't watch the game you would assume that Mariota threw an INT by just going by the stat sheet.

      Are you referring to the perfect pass Mariota threw right at his receiver's chest that went right threw the guy's hands?  Yeah, that's a drop for the clueless among us.

      It seems like you are nerd raging again. You can't go by the stat line which is clear that a lot of people did to pass judgement.  Just like a lot of the penalties yesterday were bogus.People are blaming the corner backs, but the Bucs corner backs as Moose put in the broadcast played a brilliant game.

      A coherent thought or two would be a positive from you.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      You negators do understand that a quarterback has to throw through windows, correct?If a pass is a little behind, a little in front, a bit high or a bit low it might just be that 6-7 Jadeveon Clowney or 6-5 JJ Watt is taking away a throwing lane.This is where catch radius comes into play with a receiver.  If the ball is in the catch radius and you are an NFL receiver you  SHOULD catch the ball.It's not a 7v7 tournament it's an NFL game.

      They didn't watch the game so they are going off of the stat line.  You can tell right way who watched the game and who didn't. It is like blaming Mariota for that INT yesterday.  Most NFL players and ex NFL players argue that should have gone down as a fumble on the stat sheet but the NFL considers that an INT.  If you didn't watch the game you would assume that Mariota threw an INT by just going by the stat sheet.

      Are you referring to the perfect pass Mariota threw right at his receiver's chest that went right threw the guy's hands?  Yeah, that's a drop for the clueless among us.

      It seems like you are nerd raging again. You can't go by the stat line which is clear that a lot of people did to pass judgement.  Just like a lot of the penalties yesterday were bogus.People are blaming the corner backs, but the Bucs corner backs as Moose put in the broadcast played a brilliant game.

      A coherent thought or two would be a positive from you.

      Your logical fallacies are easy to expose.  Keep nerd raging.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      Correcting Clueless Homers = Nerd RagingSure thing, ADW.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      The evil PFF

      lol, chip meet shoulder

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 141

      Can we please just judge Winston and the rest of the team based on their on-field play? And can we please stop trying to come up with ways to make Winston look better? If the pre-draft pro-Winston folks want the folks who prefered Mariota before the draft to stop comparing the two or saying we drafted the wrong guy, y’all need to stop with threads like this. Only play I’ve seen from the game so far is Jackson’s overturned TD, but I have zero desire to see any others after hearing it’s everyone’s fault but Winston’s. Getting to the point I’m not sure what’s worse, Winstonites or Tebowites.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 680

      I’ve been very critical of Winston, but I have to say I’ve been very impressed with how he has learned the speed of the game! His feet have gotten much quicker and his timing is greatly improving…I’m really liking what I’m seeing from him so far…Kudos to him!!

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1830

      Jaboo missed some VERY important passes today…1/12 on third down in horrendous and obviously a recipe for defeat. The one pass that sticks out in my mind is the pass in the red zone…a 6-7 yd slant to Evans. Evans was clearly open and the ball was badly thrown…way behind him…huge opportunity missed.Now, Winston did make some excellent throws as well, but when looking at the entire game...I would probably give the QB a C for his performance.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 855

      Jaboo missed some VERY important passes today...1/12 on third down in horrendous and obviously a recipe for defeat. The one pass that sticks out in my mind is the pass in the red zone...a 6-7 yd slant to Evans. Evans was clearly open and the ball was badly thrown...way behind him...huge opportunity missed.Now, Winston did make some excellent throws as well, but when looking at the entire game...I would probably give the QB a C for his performance.

      Uh, he had to throw the ball like that. If he tries to lead Evans on that slant, the LBer is right there to pick it off for 6 pts. That window was small and he threw the ball where only Evans can get to it. It was a tough play for Mike to make but he is a top 10 pick (meaning he was drafted to make such plays)I agree w/the synopsis he was a C grade yesterday. Good first half and a bad second half, averages to a C.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 814

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      The evil PFF has weighed on the drops.  Buccaneer receivers had four drops vs. the Texans.

      Just out of curiosity, how many of the "Buccaneer receivers four drops vs. the Texans" did PFF have for Mike Evans?

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 830

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      The evil PFF has weighed on the drops.  Buccaneer receivers had four drops vs. the Texans.

      AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. Thanks for the laugh.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      is it gonna be like this through the end of time?  has anyone "blamed" winston for the loss?  but either making up lies, twisting the truth, or just not knowing what is expected out of our WRs isnt gonna help winstons case.he played OK.  the loss falls squarely on the shoulders of the team.

      Agreed.  I certainly didn't "blame" the loss on Winston.  This was a team loss top to bottom.  From ownership down to the place kicker.  But, Winston most certainly did not play well or show that he is an elite QB unless you wanted to see what truly wasn't there. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1417

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.

      The evil PFF has weighed on the drops.  Buccaneer receivers had four drops vs. the Texans.

      Just out of curiosity, how many of the "Buccaneer receivers four drops vs. the Texans" did PFF have for Mike Evans?

      They gave him 3.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1417

      I've been very critical of Winston, but I have to say I've been very impressed with how he has learned the speed of the game! His feet have gotten much quicker and his timing is greatly improving...I'm really liking what I'm seeing from him so far...Kudos to him!!

      I agree with this. Only a matter of time before he gets the placement better. He's improving every game and by the end of this season I think we'll all be really excited for the future.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      Jaboo missed some VERY important passes today...1/12 on third down in horrendous and obviously a recipe for defeat. The one pass that sticks out in my mind is the pass in the red zone...a 6-7 yd slant to Evans. Evans was clearly open and the ball was badly thrown...way behind him...huge opportunity missed.Now, Winston did make some excellent throws as well, but when looking at the entire game...I would probably give the QB a C for his performance.

      Uh, he had to throw the ball like that. If he tries to lead Evans on that slant, the LBer is right there to pick it off for 6 pts. That window was small and he threw the ball where only Evans can get to it. It was a tough play for Mike to make but he is a top 10 pick (meaning he was drafted to make such plays)

      I disagree.  There was room for Winston to put the ball in front of Evans.  He just threw it behind Evans.  Yes, it would be nice for Evans to haul that in, but Winston has to have better ball-placement.

      Just out of curiosity, how many of the "Buccaneer receivers four drops vs. the Texans" did PFF have for Mike Evans?

      Three

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      Here are Winston’s 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1830

      Jaboo missed some VERY important passes today...1/12 on third down in horrendous and obviously a recipe for defeat. The one pass that sticks out in my mind is the pass in the red zone...a 6-7 yd slant to Evans. Evans was clearly open and the ball was badly thrown...way behind him...huge opportunity missed.Now, Winston did make some excellent throws as well, but when looking at the entire game...I would probably give the QB a C for his performance.

      Uh, he had to throw the ball like that. If he tries to lead Evans on that slant, the LBer is right there to pick it off for 6 pts. That window was small and he threw the ball where only Evans can get to it. It was a tough play for Mike to make but he is a top 10 pick (meaning he was drafted to make such plays)

      I disagree. There was room for Winston to put the ball in front of Evans.  He just threw it behind Evans.  Yes, it would be nice for Evans to haul that in, but Winston has to have better ball-placement.

      ^^^^This

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3169

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      What in the (censored) are you watching?

      #1 Wasn't a dropped pass, Joseph knocked the ball away#2 Wasn't a dropped pass.  Sure, it was "catchable", but it was a poorly thrown ball over his head and behind him.#3 Arguably a dropped pass... but it was poorly thrown.  RB was coming back for the outlet dump off and Winston threw the ball to where the RB "was" and not where he was "going to be".#4 Not really a dropped pass as the receiver got clobbered the second the ball hit his fingers.#5 Clearly a dropped pass.#6 Not a dropped pass.  The ball was at his ankles and behind him.I call 1 out of 6 true dropped passes.  Of the other 5, 2 (#'s 2 and 3), can be considered 50/50 on fault.  That's the best you're going to get.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      http://www.tomahawknation.com/2015/9/27/9406047/video-jameis-winstons-bucs-receivers-drop-all-the-passes?_ga=1.106299142.461262215.1422296907Here are 6 drops....

      I'm embarrassed for the people that think those are drops. There are two, maybe three, legit drops out of the six plays. Lol @ tomahawknation.com

      What in the (censored) are you watching?

      #1 Wasn't a dropped pass, Joseph knocked the ball away#2 Wasn't a dropped pass.  Sure, it was "catchable", but it was a poorly thrown ball over his head and behind him.#3 Arguably a dropped pass... but it was poorly thrown.  RB was coming back for the outlet dump off and Winston threw the ball to where the RB "was" and not where he was "going to be".#4 Not really a dropped pass as the receiver got clobbered the second the ball hit his fingers.#5 Clearly a dropped pass.#6 Not a dropped pass.  The ball was at his ankles and behind him.I call 1 out of 6 true dropped passes.  Of the other 5, 2 (#'s 2 and 3), can be considered 50/50 on fault.  That's the best you're going to get.

      On #5, Watt tipped the ball.  That changed the timing... but it was a drop.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1110

      Here are Winston's 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

      It doesn't matter if he's a good QB or not.  He went to FSU, he's our starter as long as Lovie's in charge, win or lose.  Shouldn't that be all that matters?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3316

      There’s no reason to make look better or worse.  He had one crap game, one decent game and one avg game.  He’s a rookie.  Is he as ready as some people thought?  No.  But I see flashes.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 367

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.Winston's stats were 17-36 for 261 yards with a 7.2 per attempt average.if those 10 balls are caught that's a minimum of an extra 72 yards of production.Final stats: 27-36 for 333 yards and perhaps a couple of more touchdowns.Is this loss still on Jameis' shoulders?

      Is this a stat you read, or did you go back through the game film and tally those drops? I’d be interested if you could list those plays, so I could go back and watch them again.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 814

      Jaboo missed some VERY important passes today...1/12 on third down in horrendous and obviously a recipe for defeat. The one pass that sticks out in my mind is the pass in the red zone...a 6-7 yd slant to Evans. Evans was clearly open and the ball was badly thrown...way behind him...huge opportunity missed.Now, Winston did make some excellent throws as well, but when looking at the entire game...I would probably give the QB a C for his performance.

      Uh, he had to throw the ball like that. If he tries to lead Evans on that slant, the LBer is right there to pick it off for 6 pts. That window was small and he threw the ball where only Evans can get to it. It was a tough play for Mike to make but he is a top 10 pick (meaning he was drafted to make such plays)

      I disagree.  There was room for Winston to put the ball in front of Evans.  He just threw it behind Evans.  Yes, it would be nice for Evans to haul that in, but Winston has to have better ball-placement.

      Just out of curiosity, how many of the "Buccaneer receivers four drops vs. the Texans" did PFF have for Mike Evans?

      Three

      Fair enough, I had him for five, but we are splitting hairs.  Did not think Evans played very well, but I do think he got interfered with in the end zone when the defender hooked his left arm as he was attempting to make a play on the ball, I believe it was in the 4th quarter.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      Here are Winston's 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

      It doesn't matter if he's a good QB or not.  He went to FSU, he's our starter as long as Lovie's in charge, win or lose.  Shouldn't that be all that matters?

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      I've been very critical of Winston, but I have to say I've been very impressed with how he has learned the speed of the game! His feet have gotten much quicker and his timing is greatly improving...I'm really liking what I'm seeing from him so far...Kudos to him!!

      I think in a lot of ways this was his best game. I'm not focusing on drops alone, though there were 2-4 depending on one's subjective view. There were also lot of very good throws that weren't completed because the D made a great play and/or the WR didn't come down with it (not pure drop, just no catch).Just take 3 throws for example - the horrific call for offensive PI on the first series that negates a great throw to Evans on the outside. The great throw to Evans that Joseph makes an amazing play on. The end-zone backshoulder to V-Jax, that for fluky reasons ends up being out of bounds. That's 3 plays for 96 yards and a TD. I thought there was only 1 terrible decision out of 37 throws (the pick). And that one may not happen had Evans simply caught the ball on the previous play and given us a first down.He had a few inaccurate throws. The ones late that I think stick out might have a component of timing or miscommunication (2 of them that I recall involved Evans, and remember that they have missed some time). But most importantly, I thought he showed pretty good poise all day. OL didn't get him killed like we anticipated, but he still faced some pressure and some difficult down and distances (I think only one 3rd down was less than 5 yards all day). He didn't run away as much as he did in the Saints game either. On my list of worries about this team, he's way down there at the bottom. I hated just about everything he did in the Tennessee game, but he's making good strides.

      Please wait…

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Here are Winston's 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

      It doesn't matter if he's a good QB or not.  He went to FSU, he's our starter as long as Lovie's in charge, win or lose.  Shouldn't that be all that matters?

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Great of you to show up after that week long vacation.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 814

      Here are Winston's 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

      It doesn't matter if he's a good QB or not.  He went to FSU, he's our starter as long as Lovie's in charge, win or lose.  Shouldn't that be all that matters?

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Thank you.  Duly noted...

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      It's generally agreed that the Bucs had 10 drops today.Winston's stats were 17-36 for 261 yards with a 7.2 per attempt average.if those 10 balls are caught that's a minimum of an extra 72 yards of production.Final stats: 27-36 for 333 yards and perhaps a couple of more touchdowns.Is this loss still on Jameis' shoulders?

      Is this a stat you read, or did you go back through the game film and tally those drops? I'd be interested if you could list those plays, so I could go back and watch them again.

      It was a stat that I read.  During the game we kept a rough tally going after it appeared that the number was going to keep growing.It was nothing scientific I just could not believe how many drops and how many 50/50 balls wecould not win.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      Here are Winston's 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

      It doesn't matter if he's a good QB or not.  He went to FSU, he's our starter as long as Lovie's in charge, win or lose.  Shouldn't that be all that matters?

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Great of you to show up after that week long vacation.

      Im supposed to feel better after a vacation.  This doesnt feel good.  FYI, I posted that he played reasonably well vs the Saints.  Please feel free to look it up. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 367

      At 14:04 of the 3rd Q, Evans drops an easy catch that leaves them at least with 3rd & 2. However, at 14:00 the very next play, Winston has very good protection and just throws an absolutely horrible pass to Evans over the middle for an INT. If he goes underneath and hits Meyers in stride, they most likely get the 1st down, and more. Also, Winston doesn’t look at anyone else but Evans on that play. Those are the throws and plays Winston must improve on during the next 13 games.

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      I have a question for the naysayers in this thread.Why are you looking for reasons to make our rookie quarterback look bad?Why is there such disagreement over his future, his present and his past?Why can't he get the benefit of the doubt?Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?What is your ax to grind?Is this the way it's going to be with some of you throughout his career?What a miserable outlook....

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 367

      I have a question for the naysayers in this thread.Why are you looking for reasons to make our rookie quarterback look bad?Why is there such disagreement over his future, his present and his past?Why can't he get the benefit of the doubt?Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?What is your ax to grind?Is this the way it's going to be with some of you throughout his career?What a miserable outlook....

      I can’t speak for others, I don’t consider myself a naysayer. What I’m looking for are ways for him to improve. If this was a thread about Mike Evans, I would be critiquing Evans’ ways to improve. The only example I can use to answer your question is, if this was a thread about Tony Romo during his rookie season, an updrafted rookie, people might be pointing out the good things. However, as a 1st round #1 overall pick, the good things Winston does are expected. The bad things he does are the focus for how he can get better. At least that's how it is for someone like me without a hidden agenda.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      I have a question for the naysayers in this thread.Why are you looking for reasons to make our rookie quarterback look bad?Why is there such disagreement over his future, his present and his past?Why can't he get the benefit of the doubt?Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?What is your ax to grind?Is this the way it's going to be with some of you throughout his career?What a miserable outlook....

      The QB position has ALWAYS been a heavily critiqued position.  Taking a guy as polarizing as Winston as the FIRST PICK IN THE DRAFT will only add to that, which is pretty tough.  Taking him before a guy most in the NFL outside of FL felt was a better player only adds further to this.  That's a lot of polarization for a team that simply could NOT afford to make a mistake here.  The fact is they did, and they did badly.  The reality is Winston simply isnt a very good player.  He hasn't been since 2013 and so far not much has happened to make anyone feel better other that the "well if you subtract this and dont add that, the stats are ok".  Thats the stuff of losers.  We are all Buc fans here, and all of us would happily eat crow if we saw greatness in the guy.  We have seen greatness -granted in cities that arent us- and this guy isn't it. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?

      Side with Jameis?  Why in the hell would anyone do that if you are trying to look at a play without bias?Why can't you side with Mike Evans on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Vincent Jackson on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Louis Murphy on a 50/50 throw?I have a better idea.  Let's try to look at everyone's performance without any bias and evaluate their play accordingly?

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    • jgrable1

      Participant
      Post count: 220

      Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?

      Side with Jameis?  Why in the hell would anyone do that if you are trying to look at a play without bias?Why can't you side with Mike Evans on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Vincent Jackson on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Louis Murphy on a 50/50 throw?I have a better idea.  Let's try to look at everyone's performance without any bias and evaluate their play accordingly?

      There is no way that people of your ilk could do that.  You clearly have an agenda against the quarterback.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?

      Side with Jameis?  Why in the hell would anyone do that if you are trying to look at a play without bias?Why can't you side with Mike Evans on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Vincent Jackson on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Louis Murphy on a 50/50 throw?I have a better idea.  Let's try to look at everyone's performance without any bias and evaluate their play accordingly?

      There is no way that people of your ilk could do that.  You clearly have an agenda against the quarterback.

      This is true.  The Texans had zero sacks against the Bucs.  Do you know who I gave the majority of the credit for that stat?Of course you don't.  I didn't post it on TomahawkNation.com.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      At 14:04 of the 3rd Q, Evans drops an easy catch that leaves them at least with 3rd & 2. However, at 14:00 the very next play, Winston has very good protection and just throws an absolutely horrible pass to Evans over the middle for an INT. If he goes underneath and hits Meyers in stride, they most likely get the 1st down, and more. Also, Winston doesn't look at anyone else but Evans on that play. Those are the throws and plays Winston must improve on during the next 13 games.

      I agree. That one looked he decided before the play that he was going to feed Evans no matter what. Somebody on twitter suggested he didn't see the underneath coverage, but I just think he let his ego get the best of him and thought he could stick it in there. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 337

      Jaboo missed some VERY important passes today...1/12 on third down in horrendous and obviously a recipe for defeat. The one pass that sticks out in my mind is the pass in the red zone...a 6-7 yd slant to Evans. Evans was clearly open and the ball was badly thrown...way behind him...huge opportunity missed.Now, Winston did make some excellent throws as well, but when looking at the entire game...I would probably give the QB a C for his performance.

      Uh, he had to throw the ball like that. If he tries to lead Evans on that slant, the LBer is right there to pick it off for 6 pts. That window was small and he threw the ball where only Evans can get to it. It was a tough play for Mike to make but he is a top 10 pick (meaning he was drafted to make such plays)I agree w/the synopsis he was a C grade yesterday. Good first half and a bad second half, averages to a C.

      He had room to fit the ball into Evans, but it would've required that he zip the ball in -- something he hasn't done much of since taking over. He's thrown way too many looping balls and touch passes -- it's almost like he's afraid to throw a fastball or he has some injury that's preventing it.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Here are Winston's 3rd down passing stats:13-32 40.6%  166 yards 1 TD 3 Ints 6 First Downs28.9 RatingDiscuss.......

      It doesn't matter if he's a good QB or not.  He went to FSU, he's our starter as long as Lovie's in charge, win or lose.  Shouldn't that be all that matters?

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Great of you to show up after that week long vacation.

      lolthat is the "beauty" of anonymous message boards: zero accountability, home of selective douchery

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1830

      Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?

      Side with Jameis?  Why in the hell would anyone do that if you are trying to look at a play without bias?Why can't you side with Mike Evans on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Vincent Jackson on a 50/50 throw?Why can't you side with Louis Murphy on a 50/50 throw?I have a better idea.  Let's try to look at everyone's performance without any bias and evaluate their play accordingly?

      There is no way that people of your ilk could do that.  You clearly have an agenda against the quarterback.

      "Your ilk"? Is that equal to "you people"?I assume you mean BUC FANS...not JAMEIS fans who slide in here because we drafted "your QB". Some of us actually look a the game without an agenda. There were plays left on the field again this week that fall squarely on Jameis' shoulders!! He is the QB, he is the #1 pick in the draft, he is guy that said he wanted to be the "face of the franchise", and he is the player that this franchise mortgaged it's future for...so fucking deal with it!! You Noles fans act like every criticism of Jaboo is a personal attack on him...IT'S NOT, it is a reflection of how he performs.Holy crap, you girls have some thin skin when it comes to your unnatural hero worship.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Here's some more context. On Winston's third down throws, he's faced an average down and distance of 8.42 yards. I've excluded the 3rd and 42 yards he faced since it would add a yard to the average, and that's consistent with the numbers to follow.Only 3 QBs had a situation equal to or worse than JW last year - McCown, Bortles, Glennon. Josh converted 37% (which is slightly higher than expected). Bortles converted 29.3%. Glennon converted 28.3%. Winston thus far has completed 22.6%. Based on expected conversion rates, Winston should have thrown for 11 first downs, and he's thrown for 7. So he's -4. The sample size for Winston is tiny though. If we just look at the 2 drops, it's suddenly 29%. Not great, but not unexpected for a guy playing in his third game. In case you were curious, we were also near the bottom of the longest avg. down and distance in 2013 (Glennon 8.6, Freeman at 8.8 yards to go was the bottom). 2012 we weren't so bad.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 583

      I need to put Winston's 28.9 Rating on 3rd down in proper perspective:Career Passer Ratings on 3rd downShaun King: 71.8Ryan Leaf: 43.5Byron Leftwich: 78.8JaMarcus Russell: 61.3Jimmy Claussen: 57.2Marcus Mariota: 100.8Mike Glennon: 79.2

      Here's some more context. On Winston's third down throws, he's faced an average down and distance of 8.42 yards. I've excluded the 3rd and 42 yards he faced since it would add a yard to the average, and that's consistent with the numbers to follow.Only 3 QBs had a situation equal to or worse than JW last year - McCown, Bortles, Glennon. Josh converted 37% (which is slightly higher than expected). Bortles converted 29.3%. Glennon converted 28.3%. Winston thus far has completed 22.6%. Based on expected conversion rates, Winston should have thrown for 11 first downs, and he's thrown for 7. So he's -4. The sample size for Winston is tiny though. If we just look at the 2 drops, it's suddenly 29%. Not great, but not unexpected for a guy playing in his third game. In case you were curious, we were also near the bottom of the longest avg. down and distance in 2013 (Glennon 8.6, Freeman at 8.8 yards to go was the bottom). 2012 we weren't so bad.

      Those are excellent stats and does show how the Buc offense in general is a mess.Since Winston doesn't only step on the field on 3rd down, can't we put some of the concern of third and long on the QB too?  The main concern I have is that this offense isn't THAT bad.  Our two receivers are pretty decent and a Martin/Sims combo isn't the worst in the game.  Even the OLine was not horrible vs a great Houston front 7.  Dirk is pretty well respected OC.  This is not a team that should have 9 points.  Yes, our kicker sucks but part of the 9 points was a 58 yard FG which is hardly how you build a team if you want to have consistent success.  The problem if you need to boil it down is 3rd down.  That is exactly where the great QB's make their money.  Winston was 1-9 in the 3rd quarter yesterday, and a Trent Dilfer like 5-17 for the half in a close game.  I know the stat guys hate the word clutch but it does exist and we havent seen that quality. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Sure – of course Winston doesn’t just show up on 3rd down. He definitely has a hand in it.If I get some time later I'll dig in deeper on these, but my guess as to why we are in these situations:1) run game 2) penalties

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      So he should say "Mr. Clowney I'm rolling left would you please remain static....Mr. Watt please don't jump into my throwing window I have a 15 yard out in mind." You have 24,000 posts and I'd hope most of those aren't as vacuous as the past few.  You're arguing for the sake of arguing.  Why don't you recuse yourself from this discussion.

      no, im pretty vacuous all the time.    im just not into making petty excuses.  throwing windows and batted balls are on the QB a good majority of the time.  good QBs manipulate the defense by how they move in the pocket, how they deceive the defense with looks and fakes.  inexperience and poor QBs telegraph their intentions.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 141

      I have a question for the naysayers in this thread.Why are you looking for reasons to make our rookie quarterback look bad?Why is there such disagreement over his future, his present and his past?Why can't he get the benefit of the doubt?Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?What is your ax to grind?Is this the way it's going to be with some of you throughout his career?What a miserable outlook....

      No axe to grind honestly. I prefered Mariota but was mostly fine with taking Winston.I'm not sure why not trying to make excuses for Winston's play or pretending that he made completions he didn't means I've got a miserable outlook. I'm not super happy to see that the weaknesses I thought he had pre-draft are proving to be valid since he's the QB of the team I have rooted for since I was nine. I am pleased to see progress, but I'm not going to pretend he's better than what he's shown on the field or than what his stats say he is at this moment in his career. Like it or not, Winston is going to be a work in progress. He needs coaching to fix the shortcomings he has as an NFL QB, just like Mariota does. Unfortunately for some pro-Winston folks, a vocal segment of the Winston fan club from before the draft are part of the problem this board is seeing right now. We're all reaping what they sowed whilst they are no where to be seen.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 407

      People need to chill with Winston. It’s not like we are going to bench him for Glennon or trade him. People are expecting a rookie to play like a pro bowl or HoF QB in a garbage team lol. The Bucs are still in a better QB situation than about 80% of the league. The problem is Lovie. He needs to be fired ASAP.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Here’s the follow up to the avg. down to go on 3rd I posted earlier. I looked at all the 5 yards or greater 3rd downs that involved Winston passes (except for the 3rd and 42 I pulled out of the data earlier – multiple penalties on that one). Here’s how we got to 3rd and long:- 32% involved at LEAST one penalty. - 18% involved a negative run.- 50% involved at least one negative run and/or one "not sufficient run" - by not sufficient, I mean 0-3 yards. - 18% involved a sack. However, every sack was preceded by a penalty or "not sufficient run." - 18% were the sole result of incomplete passes where the guy dropped it Winston missed him. In other words, it was the only negative/non-productive play of that series prior to third down. If you add in "passes defensed" incompletes that goes up to 32%.- I put one play (4.5%) in the Offensive Coordinator category. This was a "shot-play" that went incomplete, followed by an obvious 2nd down "not sufficient" run. It's a real small sample, so take that into account.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      I have a question for the naysayers in this thread.1Why are you looking for reasons to make our rookie quarterback look bad?2Why is there such disagreement over his future, his present and his past?3Why can't he get the benefit of the doubt?4Why can't some of you side with Jameis on the 50/50 throws that could have greatlyenhanced his stats and brought the Bucs a win?5What is your ax to grind?6Is this the way it's going to be with some of you throughout his career?What a miserable outlook....

      1 i dont think many are looking for reasons to make our QB look bad, i think many are honest.  i think a few are trolls.2 i dont think there is a disagreement on his future.  most are very excited, a few are trolls.3  this is the issue.  he shouldnt get a benefit of the doubt.  he should be judged as a NFL player.4  some fans want to consider 50/50 balls drops - thats ridiculous.  PFF agrees.  folks without bias agree.5 i have no axe, i was extremely happy to draft winston.  but im still gonna be as honest as possible.6  it probably will be.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      GameTime,Why is it, if someone disagrees with you about Winston they are trolls?No room for anyone to have a difference of opinion? How can you live in this world with being so perfect?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      GameTime,Why is it, if someone disagrees with you about Winston they are trolls?No room for anyone to have a difference of opinion? How can you live in this world with being so perfect?

      haha, i welcome disagreements and positive discussions.  who have i called a troll that didnt deserve it?  i think attempting to prop up winston by using erroneous stats is starting trouble.  i do think its unwise to be completely judgemental on a player.  i by no means know more than most on here, i probably know less.  i am certainly not perfect, i just attempt to not be a child, and i attempt to be unbiased.

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