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    • KarmaPolice

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      @JBear

      this is one of those Neocons you hate so much disagreeing with Biden’s policy, which is the SAME basic policy as Trump

      Lets read you wash the sand out and praise Biden?

    • KarmaPolice

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      GO JBEAR, GO JBEAR!

    • KarmaPolice

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      Nothing from JBear?

      Maybe busy signing up to volunteer for Biden 2024?

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 5835

      Did jbear become impotent from this post?

      All the false flags we heard about Biden, Bernie, AOC, and the face of the Democratic party have BLOWN UP in his face.

      Even Rand fucking Paul praised this.

      Rand
      Fucking
      Paul

      Jbear is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one (again).

    • KarmaPolice

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      nothing?

      hmmmmmmmmm

    • FireLicht2020

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      Yeah it’s weird…

      Is getting out of war “socialist-lite”?

      Asking for a friend

    • jbear

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      Post count: 3703

      Congrats to our Savior Joe Biden for single handedly removing all troops from Afghanistan forever!

      https://greenwald.substack.com/p/journalists-learning-they-spread?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjozNDUyNzU2NSwicG9zdF9pZCI6MzUyMDI0ODcsIl8iOiI4bFMxaiIsImlhdCI6MTYxODU5NjYyMiwiZXhwIjoxNjE4NjAwMjIyLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMTI4NjYyIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.h2LFNhRGEO_GvyndgNI9rBihXI4YYKYOsuCEmuoM8po
      Journalists, Learning They Spread a CIA Fraud About Russia, Instantly Embrace a New One

      “The story appeared — coincidentally or otherwise — just weeks after President Trump announced his plan to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2020. Pro-war members of Congress from both parties and liberal hawks in corporate media spent weeks weaponizing this story to accuse Trump of appeasing Putin by leaving Afghanistan and being too scared to punish the Kremlin.

      In the interests of having an actual discussion I will say that I support Joe Biden’s removal of Troops from Afghanistan but lets not make shit up about how it came about.

    • jbear

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      The first goal this story served was to weaponize it in the battle waged by pro-war House Democrats and their neocon GOP allies to stop Trump’s withdrawal plan from Afghanistan. How, they began demanding upon publication of the CIA/NYT story, can we possibly leave Afghanistan when the Russians are trying to kill our troops? Would that not be a reckless abdication to the Kremlin of this country that we own, and would withdrawal not be a reward to Putin after we learned he was engaged in such dastardly plotting to kill our sons and daughters?

      Sincerely, I do support Joe Biden removing the troops from Afghanistan and I truly hope that it comes to fruition but based on history, there’s a fair chance that our leaders may not allow it to happen.

    • jbear

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      And here’s the kicker…

      Predictably, now that this CIA tale has served its purpose (namely, preventing Trump from leaving Afghanistan), and now that its enduring effects are impeding the Biden administration (which wants to leave Afghanistan and so needs to get rid of this story), the U.S. Government is now admitting that — surprise! — they had no convincing evidence for this story all along.

    • KarmaPolice

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      theres always a conspiracy. The CIA leaked a story to prevent Trump from withdrawing troops . . ???

      I will try to read it later

      • jbear

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        I don’t think it’s a conspiracy to just say that media standards of impartiality have been slipping. And I’d love to see some standards raised on all sides. What is supposed to actually be news especially. That also goes for what stories are being covered by what outlets.

        People are human. They all have their biases, I just wish for some tougher critiques. It should have been legitimate to question why there wasn’t any evidence. You should have to have some evidence to say something is a fact or True.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Lol the spin zone…

      • jbear

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        Are you seriously going to get hung up on the idea that it makes Trump look slightly less dumb? Just think about it Fire. In a free society the media’s job is to check the government and certainly not to tout as fact unverified, KGB errr CIA information on someone’s word alone with no evidence?

        Of course you had legitimate things to gripe on about Trump as even some people do today about Joe Biden and I’m NOT saying they are the same.

        What I’m concerned about now is the people on the left who, maybe as a response to Trump or whatever, but you’ve gotten used to blindly accepting anything that goes against the orange guy and that I think would be really bad for the country.

        I think you know already that some of the other Jbear stuff is just in fun but I’m perfectly cabable of being reasonable when I see the same from the people I”m arguing with.

      • jbear

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        What I mean is…. if we have some reasonable Democrats maybe we could coax a few reasonable Republicans out of their shells and we can start to get things back to some semblance of civility.

        It seems like there are things going on the people used to be able to agree sucked but now everyone looks at every news story through the lens of whether it helps or hurt’s their side of the bigger argument. Can’t we just agree on some things?

    • jbear

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      I wish you two would both read the article it’s a great read and gets to the heart of what I’ve been trying to say to you both for a long time about “truth” and “lies”.

      But these doubts were virtually non-existent in most media reports. Indeed, one of the New York Times reporters who broke the story publicly attacked me as a conspiracy theorist back in September when I cited that NBC News story about the lack of evidence while pointing out what a crucial role this uncorroborated story played in stopping troop withdrawal from Afghanistan and claiming Trump was beholden to Putin.

      Even worse, other media outlets — led by The Washington Post — purported to have “independently confirmed” the NYT/CIA tale of Russian bounties. Twice in the last year, I have written about this bizarre practice where media outlets purport to “independently confirm” one another’s false stories by doing nothing more than going to the same anonymous sources who whisper to them the same things while providing no evidence. Yet they use this phrase “independent confirmation” to purposely imply that they obtained separate evidence corroborating the truth of the original story:

      I know that you both hate this guy but dangit he makes a lot of really good points. And the underlying theme is that these stories were presented as factual and now they are suddenly no longer factual. Things change all the time but it sure is convenient timing if you’re a supporter of Joe Biden or an enemy of the orange guy.

      I mean this will all due respect but how can a rational person see that just months ago denial of this story made you a liar and deranged Trump lunatic and now makes you one of the sane?

    • KarmaPolice

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      I will read it. In an hour or so.

      • jbear

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        That would be great.

    • KarmaPolice

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      So I just want to make sure you EXPLAIN your position. You say this above:

      I don’t think it’s a conspiracy to just say that media standards of impartiality have been slipping.

      You agree that your quote above is NOT what Greenwald says, right? Greenwald says CIA “fraud” was floated through the media to undermine Trumps presidency and, specifically in this instance, to stop the withdrawal

      Which one to you assert?

      Your quote is a comment about journalistic standards. Greenwald breathlessly writes about a multi institutional cabal motivated to destroy Trump AND keep the war ms home going

      Be specific

      • jbear

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        It’s funny that we can read the same thing in completely different ways. I don’t see Glen Greenwald as a Trumper. In this particular article he clearly points out the alignment between certain democrats and neo conservative Republicans. He does this all the time. If you look at Glen Greenwald’s history, he’s anti war, anti government control, government secrecy for our own good.

        I agree with you that he seems to have a soft spot for Trump probably because of the whole outsider thing. I also agree with something you’ve said before about him that he’s made a conscious choice to ignore some of Trumps transgressions but I don’t think it’s just a money thing at all. He’s a contrarian. When he sees anything that it seems a lot of people are just taking for granted and have stopped even thinking about, that’s where he wants to inject himself. In this case, the intellectuals have shunned the morons who are too dumb to understand anything and look, maybe almost half the country voted for Trump but I think we can both agree that way less than half the country is really this, die hard, universally shunned “trumper” person.

        So the intelligent people and most of the people who matter in media and entertainment get this idea that all the ideas that the morons have are dumb and they stop even thinking about them anymore and someone like Glen Greenwald is going to find that and have a problem with that.

        I don’t know if that clarifies my position. I think journalistic standards would be a good start. I don’t take the position as any defense of Trump because that would just start another war. You know that I think you and fire and many on the left went way overboard… but seriously lets save that for another day.

    • FireLicht2020

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      I can read the article… I hate Greenwald tho. Follow him on Twitter and I already know his stance based on that (he rants twice a day on liberals).

      I will admit that there could be some optical reason for this… I don’t know that it relates to Trump, but maybe?

      I don’t believe in the deep state and if I did, historically it would tell me that it is conservative in nature (not liberal).

      What interests me more than anything is coming to terms on your identity of Biden. Let’s get real, he’s what SHOULD BE a great compromise… middle-left after a far-right Trump. And if someone runs against him, I hope it is a Libertarian or middle-right candidate. The problem being that the GOP is few and far between there…

      But Biden clearly leans slightly left, but far from your worry of socialism… and now the neo-con war-hawk angle is debunked.

      Which puts him where we knew he would be… a moderate.

      I hope one day you’ll realize that you were melodramatic on the socialist front…

      • jbear

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        I don’t think Greenwald is any kind of Republican. His claim to fame…. well that’s snowden but I guess where he earned his chops was going after George W. Bush and the second gulf war. He’s firmly anti war, anti big government which explains why I like him so much. lol

        The deep state… I’m not sure he believes in the deep state as you probably mean it. Qanon and OT and all the other nuts have ruined the term. But I think, possibly on the level of national security, based on history and the cold war, it is possible that high levels of government have their own set of rules…. that part is likely even probable, and whether it’s an organized group of powerful people of just a structural set of non rules that High levels of CIA, FBI…. whatever else play with and always have. So these people have this system where they don’t feel they have the same rules as everyone else.

        Like the CIA “leak” of the bounty story. It really does seem like somebody at the CIA didn’t want the U.S. to leave Afghanistan. It could be something else but Occam’s razor right.

        Regarding Biden I will say it here but don’t expect me to say it anywhere else or ever again. lol Joe Biden probably does qualify, by the current standards as a moderate Democrat. His policy proposals so far however, are not. The size and scope alone are not. What I’ve been saying all along that scares me about his Presidency isn’t so much him personally it’s the extent to which his party has shifted to the left. I have to oppose that but at the same time I enjoy the banter and the blaming Joe Biden for everything wrong with anything because it’s fun. And honestly it’s fair too. I mean somebody has to do it. There’s also the fact that plenty of people on the other side were doing the same sort of nonsense over the last 4 years. I’m sure if you look back with an open mind you would see that at least of few of you or Karma’s rants look a little bit silly now.

        I get it, he said a lot of dumb shit, you didn’t like it and heck there were even things like what he did at the capital that were indefensible. But there were times when I felt your criticisms were not fair. The whole immigration narrative got turned on it’s head and now Joe is president and there is a crisis and I think some of you are looking at it and thinking look we do have to do something, maybe we do need to have some stiffer rules, maybe walls in certain places aren’t the dumbest thing ever thought of…. I don’t know, I don’t really want to argue about it. I’m actually trying to be reasonable.

    • FireLicht2020

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      Greenwald is the same as you… anti-liberal. You both love pointing out the hypocricies of the left… and there are certainly some to point out.

      The deep state angle is the same everywhere – public or private. Those at the top play by a different set of rules.

      The left isn’t controlled by their extreme. Go talk to Biggs making fun of AOC’s inability to pass her bills. Bernie hasn’t passed much either. There are certainly a handful of those liberals with the Dems, and they do have some pull, but they are far outweighed by the current Dems which are, for me, Republican-lite. So I just don’t get it. Biden should be closer to your core beliefs than Trump.

      In the end, like Greenwald, your narrative is almost impossible to convince that, as it currently stands, the GOP is rightfully deserving the lion’s share of criticism. They get more criticism, not because the media is fair/unfair, but because they have been ripe with scandals. It isn’t just Trump and Russia and the riots and QPQ.

      The GOP is a cluster fuck of a mess… the sensible ones left. The once-sensible ones are chasing votes…

      The GOP is by and far the greater of two evils… it is quantifiable.

    • jbear

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      Greenwald is the same as you… anti-liberal. You both love pointing out the hypocricies of the left… and there are certainly some to point out.

      The deep state angle is the same everywhere – public or private. Those at the top play by a different set of rules.

      The left isn’t controlled by their extreme. Go talk to Biggs making fun of AOC’s inability to pass her bills. Bernie hasn’t passed much either. There are certainly a handful of those liberals with the Dems, and they do have some pull, but they are far outweighed by the current Dems which are, for me, Republican-lite. So I just don’t get it. Biden should be closer to your core beliefs than Trump.

      In the end, like Greenwald, your narrative is almost impossible to convince that, as it currently stands, the GOP is rightfully deserving the lion’s share of criticism. They get more criticism, not because the media is fair/unfair, but because they have been ripe with scandals. It isn’t just Trump and Russia and the riots and QPQ.

      The GOP is a cluster fuck of a mess… the sensible ones left. The once-sensible ones are chasing votes…

      The GOP is by and far the greater of two evils… it is quantifiable.

      I’m going to disagree with your last sentence but really, lets leave it for another day. But there is enough reasonable in some of the other stuff you say to at least start some sort of discussion.

      The deep state angel you mention, people at the top playing by different rules is in my view at it’s most destructive when it’s happening in the government. That’s because the government has far more control over everything. We give it to them. When they don’t play by the rules we’ve all agreed on then it’s a bigger problem than a private business which at least “could” be held accountable.

      As for AOC’s inability to pass bills, I think in some ways it’s fair and in some ways it’s not. Bear in mind that people said the exact same thing about Ron Paul and Bernie too. Rand gets some of that criticism too. Every year he proposes a balanced budget that everyone including him knows will never pass. Sometimes the goal of proposing something isn’t to pass anything. So that particular point about her I give you but still I can’t think of one single thing she’s ever proposed or talked about that I agree with.

      But about the Democratic Party I still disagree. People like Nancy Pelosi who are very powerful have shifted quite far to the left. She’s still not AOC and I think a lot of her shift is out of pragmatism because in fact the party as a whole has shifted to the left. The same goes for Joe Biden. If he’s too moderate he’ll have real problems getting anything passed. That is why his proposals are far more extreme than even Obama’s. In some ways I see your point that in some ways, Joe Biden is holding the line against the more extreme but that is also an issue because I think it’s fair to say that he’s a fairly weak President. I don’t mean him personally I mean his power. He wasn’t given a mandate to do Joe Biden’s will he was given a mandate to not be Donald Trump.

      I despise a large part of the GOP just about as much as I do some of these so called moderate Democrats. Lindsay Graham, the hard core Trumpers like Gaetz or whatever it is, the Cheney woman. agggh. some of them more. Heck I respect Democrats like Manchin and I disagree with him a lot too. I really like very few politicians at all. The ones I do like a little like Mike Lee and Rand and a few others are also not perfect. I like my representative in Congress, Byron Donalds but I don’t think he’s really a champion of civil liberty like I’d really like but he’s conservative, smart and reasonable.

      • jbear

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        I meant to say that Byron Donalds is NOT really a champion of civil liberties.

    • jbear

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      Yes Bill Kristol is a terrible human being…. still.

    • KarmaPolice

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      Like the CIA “leak” of the bounty story. It really does seem like somebody at the CIA didn’t want the U.S. to leave Afghanistan.

      This is the false premise the story is selling. I say it’s false because Greenwald is the one making they claim with no back up snd he is not shy about providing links in his stories (to give them credibility)

      I will expand with actual examples later.

      I don’t hate Greenwald. I just see him for what he is which is someone selling a point of view (in this case that there is this cabal of neo cons Dems and media working to Leto us at war) to maintain snd audience, largely of people that have that view already. I will give actual examples from this article later, just do it’s clear I am not just trashing the guy or JBear for following him. This article is LOADED with examples (it would never…NEVER.., get published by any credible news outlet.

    • KarmaPolice

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      To be clear though, Greenwald takes advantage of a problem that exists in media now and that is the combination of NO EDITOR (the gatekeeper who would kill this piece) because it’s direct and people who equate people like Greenwald with the Cronkite archetype (ie trustworthy JOURNALIST) even though he is more Sean Hannity (talking head selling fir clicks). He’s particularly effective because, just like JBear, people pump up his current work because of the past work on Snowden, even though they are completely different. He’s also a very talented writer, but he uses that talent to play to his audience, not to uncover the truth

      • jbear

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        Look this is certainly your opinion but I mostly disagree. I’m not trying to compare this piece or some of the others I’ve posted before to high level investigative journalism. He’s not investigating anything and it’s clearly his opinion as well. And sure it’s interesting that he cites his own work so often in a piece where he criticizes other journalists for “independently verifying” other outlet’s pieces by calling the same unnamed CIA source who is providing zero evidence.

        It’s fine when you compare Glen Greenwald to Hanity or some others but what about some of these opinion writers on the left? I don’t bring this up to say that, “well the other side is doing it too” I bring it up because that’s kindof the point of opinion writing in the first place. Greenwald’s opinion here is in response to the overwhelmingly accepted “truth” that media is operating in a fair and balanced way. His opinion is obviously that it isn’t.

        The real issue I have with you Karma, is that it sometimes seems that all of your proofs never end up at any conclusion except that “the bad guys are dumb”. You always seem to end on you taking a victory lap after proving who dumb everyone is. All you’ve ever done is made some counter points which often are fair points but it’s not easy to say so when you’re taking an undeserved and smug victory lap. I do understand that you fully believe you’ve proved something beyond all doubt but if it were that easy I think the world would be a lot more peaceful place don’t you?

        And we’ve already had this discussion by the way. Next I say, who are you anyway? There are all these very intelligent, well respected, educated people having these discussions and they can’t come to agreement. How can you have it all figured out? Then you’ll say something about how these personalities really have either a paid for opinion or it’s a type of propaganda and they know their really wrong but just doing it for money or for power or something. To which I’ll point out the left wing pundits and we’ll eventually come back to “because my side is right and your side is dumb.”

        I apologize if this sounds disrespectful because I’m trying to keep the vitriol toned down here.

        You can give counter points but you really cannot just figure it out for everyone and tell them where their thinking is wrong and then act like you won something.

    • KarmaPolice

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      Zero offense intended. I am not criticizing anyone other they Greenwald and I will back that up shortly.

    • KarmaPolice

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      Also, if you really care about separating truth from fiction when it comes to Greenwald you might ask yourself if he’s just copying Seymour Hersh. This story posted in this thread is basically “Operation Mockingbird”

      Hersh is a loon now, thought of as great reporter then, also for breaking a story on US spying on its own citizens

      • jbear

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        You’ve said this before too. I really mean to point this out with all due respect but the last time it felt a whole lot like the point of the comparison was because Hersh went batshit crazy.

        I do get that you probably feel thats an accurate comparison but I just ask you to examine if you feeling that way could have anything to do with your political leanings? I think it’s a fair quesiton.

    • KarmaPolice

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      You’ve said this before too. I really mean to point this out with all due respect but the last time it felt a whole lot like the point of the comparison was because Hersh went batshit crazy.

      I do get that you probably feel thats an accurate comparison but I just ask you to examine if you feeling that way could have anything to do with your political leanings? I think it’s a fair quesiton.

      My point on the Hersh comparison is that he went from work with a group of journalists (including Bernstein) to selling ever wider and wider conspiracies. I am not sure that is a perfect fit with Greenwald now, but I am sure he is selling; thst is, he is writing a story like this, thst would never get past an editor, to play to people like you who share the belief that there is this Deep State/military industrial complex (now “merged” with media) all aligned to keep us at war

      I haven’t had time to point out the rhetorical slight of hand he uses but here’s a quick one: why does he suggest that troops in Germany were put there to fight a country (soviet union) that doesn’t even exist?

      Russia still exists as the threat right? And the bases in Germany are not only for NATO right? Where did Middle East wounded soldiers go? African support?

      In other words, the Soviet union reference is so intellectually dishonest that it highlights that he has to twist reality to make his point. He had to do that because Trump also want to pull troops from Germany (not just Afghanistan) snd for underpayment lol

    • KarmaPolice

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      simple example- both the headline and the subhead are false

      HEADLINE

      “Journalists, Learning They Spread a CIA Fraud About Russia, . . . Instantly Embrace a New One

      1. “faud” is bullshit. Say it hasn’t been proven, but it was not an outright fraud and even the first story says “possible” and “potential” etc. This is why he has to got Maddow clips. She’s about as representative of the media as he is.

      SUBHEAD


      The most significant Trump-era alliance is between corporate outlets and security state agencies, whose evidence-free claims they unquestioningly disseminate.

      1. “alliance” is bogus because it suggest common purpose asnd to that point helater suggested they “merged.” The merger stuff is really dumb:

      “It is not an exaggeration to call it a merger: so much so that a parade of former security state officials from the CIA, NSA, FBI, DHS and others was hired by these news outlets to deliver the news. The partnership was no longer clandestine but official, out in the open, and proud.”

      the reason they media had so many “CIA, NSA, FBI, DHS ” was because Trump said they were all Deep State and ignore intelligence. In other worss, TRUMP MADE US INTELLIGENVCE THE STORR so of course the media is going to have US intel etc on

      2. “evidence free” is total BS. There was $500K found by special ops and interviews with detainees. Say that it didn’t turn out to be true (yet), but “evidence free” is total bullshit and its because he’s pissed because the press shuns him as a loon

      THAT JUST A QUICK SAMPLE. tHE WORST IS THE LACK OF PROFFIO FOR THE PREMISE.

      If the CIA leaked the story to keep us in Afghanistan, they must’ve have bene pissed at the result because the result is it was a story about TRUMP NEGLIGENCE. That’s why his story is loaded with quotes and links that are really about Trump’s negligence (ie not acting on the reports). There’s only ONE instance of the so-called cabal saying “we must stay in Afghanistan because of Russian Bounties and that one is a throw away line in a press release AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE NED TO DEAL WITH RUSSIAN AGRESSION.



      @JbEAR
      — IN ONE OF THESE POSTS YOU SAY SOMEHTING LIKE IT (CIA LEAKED OT KEEP US IN AFGHANISTAN) SEESM PLAUSIBLE. Fair opinion to have but not backed up by that article. Thats why I keep saying it never gets past an editor

    • KarmaPolice

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      Greenwald said there was a merger between the media and the Deep State<