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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 333

      Will he return? – Should he return?PICK TWO.maxresdefault.jpgTwo questions, simple poll.Let your voice be heard.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1198

      TBDI say he has to show signs of the defense improving and not get embarrassed by backup qbs. 5 or 6 wins he comes back. Anything less and the d playing awful he's gone.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1452

      It’s a variable poll.  Open to change until January.If opinions change, the poll can reflect it.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 206

      Can you change it to separate polls for he should/shouldn’t be fired/ he will/will not be here? I only chose one option :(

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1452

      Can you change it to separate polls for he should/shouldn't be fired/ he will/will not be here? I only chose one option :(

      You should still be able to change it ... Let me know if you can't.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 407

      No give him an extension. He has a plan in place, which is to rebuild. Give him the next 5 drafts to draft two future hof DEs, hof DBs, hof LBs, hof DT once that happens our defense will be good again.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 883

      I’m thinking more about Jameis and Dirk when I made my vote. Also, like I’ve said before, he’ll be the HC next season at least barring a total meltdown in this second half of the season.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      Can you change it to separate polls for he should/shouldn't be fired/ he will/will not be here? I only chose one option :(

      Quality sig pic/post combo.

    • farzillo

      Participant
      Post count: 548

      He should be fired and the Glazers are stupid enough to keep him. It’s a bucs life.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1828

      No give him an extension. He has a plan in place, which is to rebuild. Give him the next 5 drafts to draft two future hof DEs, hof DBs, hof LBs, hof DT once that happens our defense will be good again.

      is this a joke?Even if you glaringly approve of Lovie, why would you do this? There is no need, and all it does is make him unfireable if he gets even worse. He is under long term contract already.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 534

      One thing is a fact. We go through coaches like babies go through diapers.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1198

      One thing is a fact. We go through coaches like babies go through diapers.

      When you poop your pants you gotta change

    • billym

      Participant
      Post count: 3348

      I think he stays he has the excuse of a rookie qb that needs more time to build around him,

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      The team can’t continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1198

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      How long do you give the next coach to fix Lovie's mess?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1198

      I think he stays he has the excuse of a rookie qb that needs more time to build around him,

      Dudes got an excuse every year.Year 1 excuses- no offensive coordinator, defense takes 6 years to learn, free agents underperforming and injuriesNow his built in excuse is a rookie QB who is not the reason you are losing the majority of your games?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      Schiano handed Lovie a solid defense with 3 all pro players. Lovie blew it up and it looks 2x worse. Looks like Lovie is making his own mess.

    • redwolf384

      Participant
      Post count: 181

      I am not a big lovie supporter based on some of his decisions in games and personnel moves, or defensive scheme. BUT I think you let him ride it out through next season. I base this strictly on hoping 3rd years the charm, and I’m tired of seeing a new coach every 2 years trying to change the whole team around. I voted he should and will be here. Defense needs to show up to give me some hope.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1862

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      Schiano handed Lovie a solid defense with 3 all pro players. Lovie blew it up and it looks 2x worse. Looks like Lovie is making his own mess.

      This. Love took all pro players and literally made them shit. Koetter turned the offense around and Lovie has made the defense worse. He needs to be fired.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      TBDI say he has to show signs of the defense improving and not get embarrassed by backup qbs. 5 or 6 wins he comes back. Anything less and the d playing awful he's gone.

      This is what is frustrating. The defense was playing better at the end of last year with Frasier running it. With Lovie taking over the defense I was expecting that he was going to build on that success, but every single player on defense has regressed. Nobody is playing better this year. Lovie Smith has sabotaged this defense.Unless they are seriously tanking the season and the Glazers are in on the plan, I dont see any reason to keep Smith beyond this year. If the plan all along was to tank the season and get high draft picks then he will get another year or maybe even two. All is going according to the plan.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      I totally agree with that part bolded. But seriously what do you do? The defense Lovie is trotting out on Sundays is not fully funtional. It is broken. Every single player in the secondary has been benched. Our all-pro LB is rated dead last at his position. Our highly touted MLB leads the NFL in missed tackles. They are using our injured all-pro DT too much, taking away whatever effectiveness he should be having. I cant look at any single player at any position on defense and say boy he sure has improved since Lovie took over the defense. None.Where exactly is there hope for the future with Lovie as our head coach? What can you point to and say that this is the reason why we need to retain Lovie Smith?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1151

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      Do you mean "fix" as "making it worse"?Lovie made his own mess. HE took a somewhat respectable defense and make it cow $hit.  Our 2 pro bowl players are playing like trash, got "HIS GUYS" for $60mm+ in free agency, all of which has failed, took over play calling and made the defense worse.At some point you need to cut your losses. If thats your definition of "making progress and SHOULD be here", then theres no point in going back and forth about it.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      I totally agree with that part bolded. But seriously what do you do? The defense Lovie is trotting out on Sundays is not fully funtional. It is broken. Every single player in the secondary has been benched. Our all-pro LB is rated dead last at his position. Our highly touted MLB leads the NFL in missed tackles. They are using our injured all-pro DT too much, taking away whatever effectiveness he should be having. I cant look at any single player at any position on defense and say boy he sure has improved since Lovie took over the defense. None.Where exactly is there hope for the future with Lovie as our head coach? What can you point to and say that this is the reason why we need to retain Lovie Smith?

      Yup. LVD is dead last, so is Kwon. Kwon has had some splash plays, but overall he has been below average. The only two players who have been halfway decent on that defense are Gholston and McCoy, and even they have been just average in some regards. They are so dysfunctional and undisciplined. The defensive penalties, my god. GMC had a lot last year, and he may pass last years total by week 12. This defense is god-awful and it's 100% Lovie's squad. His choices in the secondary. His choices at LB. His choices on the DL. This is his mess. Not Dom's, not Schiano's. His. When Schiano was fired, the defense was left with a top 3 DT, a top 3 OLB, and a top 3 CB. He has screwed the pooch on this defense. Call PETA.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      How long do you give the next coach to fix Lovie's mess?

      Livie needs enough time to fix the virus that was Schiano. There is not a single coach, now or historically, that could fix Schiano's f*ck-up in two years. Keep changing coaches, and you may as well embrace the methods of the Browns and, to some degree, the Redskins under Dan Snyder. A few more firings and you will be hiring staff from Craigslist. Just like the Browns did with Pettine, after thirst first fifteen choices said NFW.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      Schiano handed Lovie a solid defense with 3 all pro players. Lovie blew it up and it looks 2x worse. Looks like Lovie is making his own mess.[/quoteSchiano was a f*cking tool, who should have never been given the keys to an NFL team. The Glazers blew it when they fired Chucky. The tried to hire a replacement on the cheap, with Morris, (the same scenario now playing out on SF with future ex-coach Tomsula), and then they overreacted by bringing in Schiano. It took that long for those two to f*ck up Chucky's progress. No one could fix this team in two years. The Glazers overreact again and fire Lovie, nobody in their right mind would take on the HC position here, unless they manage to find someone desperate for a paycheck. The Glazers, fortunately, couldn't even entice Chimp Kelly. Who would be up next, Philbin, Trestman, some other coach that no other team would touch as a head coaching candidate??I thought the p!ssing and moaning in DC was bad, and look where that has them. Snyder fires another coach and they'll be trolling high schools for talent. The Bucs are about two fired coaches away from that. The Browns are already there.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      I totally agree with that part bolded. But seriously what do you do? The defense Lovie is trotting out on Sundays is not fully funtional. It is broken. Every single player in the secondary has been benched. Our all-pro LB is rated dead last at his position. Our highly touted MLB leads the NFL in missed tackles. They are using our injured all-pro DT too much, taking away whatever effectiveness he should be having. I cant look at any single player at any position on defense and say boy he sure has improved since Lovie took over the defense. None.Where exactly is there hope for the future with Lovie as our head coach? What can you point to and say that this is the reason why we need to retain Lovie Smith?

      I definitely agree. The defense is broken; however, I think you attack it at that level. Lovie is a defensive-minded coach, but he is head coach. If he has so little faith in his DC, then that is the area that should be addressed, and allow Lovie to focus on the entire team. There's been no real draft picks, other than Kwon, in Lovie's time here. They should fire Frazier, and maybe some of the positions coaches and re-boot with a new guy, before the next draft. Maybe even switch to a 3-4, anything different, really. Use the next two drafts on Defense, like the past two were on offense, bring in a new group of talent from the draft and give them time to gel. They succeeded in this fashion with the offense. The O-Line, even with the injuries, is leaps and bounds better than it was. Next year will be even better. You just can't reboot the whole team every two years. Not a single team can be successful that way.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      Do you mean "fix" as "making it worse"?Lovie made his own mess. HE took a somewhat respectable defense and make it cow $hit.  Our 2 pro bowl players are playing like trash, got "HIS GUYS" for $60mm+ in free agency, all of which has failed, took over play calling and made the defense worse.At some point you need to cut your losses. If thats your definition of "making progress and SHOULD be here", then theres no point in going back and forth about it.

      Our two "Oro Bowl" players have been playing like sh!t before Livie got here. During the Morris / Schiano years, the entire defense acted like it was a two quarter game. You would think that, at halftime, someone told them the game was over. This is the first time in years that I have seen this team play a full 60 minutes.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1151

      The team can\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s mess.

      Do you mean \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"fix\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" as \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"making it worse\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"?Lovie made his own mess. HE took a somewhat respectable defense and make it cow $hit.  Our 2 pro bowl players are playing like trash, got \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"HIS GUYS\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" for $60mm+ in free agency, all of which has failed, took over play calling and made the defense worse.At some point you need to cut your losses. If thats your definition of \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"making progress and SHOULD be here\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", then theres no point in going back and forth about it.

      Our two \\\\\\\\"Oro Bowl\\\\\\\\" players have been playing like sh!t before Livie got here. During the Morris / Schiano years, the entire defense acted like it was a two quarter game. You would think that, at halftime, someone told them the game was over. This is the first time in years that I have seen this team play a full 60 minutes.

      I'd agree mostly(i really dont), but mccoy had his best year under schiano in '13. Hell, he was an all pro that year along with lavonte.Also, I will never be able to wash off that Schiano quote about halftime...

      "I really think that halftime adjustments are overrated in a big, big way. I think halftime is to take care of your personal business, go to the men's room, get a drink and maybe something to eat because you maybe had something to eat three hours before kickoff or four hours before kickoff, now you have played an hour and a half later. You are looking at 5 1/2 hours before you have put some fuel in your system"

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      The team can\\\\\\\\\\\\'t continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano\\\\\\\\\\\\'s mess.

      Schiano handed Lovie a solid defense with 3 all pro players. Lovie blew it up and it looks 2x worse. Looks like Lovie is making his own mess.

      Schiano was a f*cking tool, who should have never been given the keys to an NFL team.

      I dont know if he was a tool...never met the guy...but it was a mistake hiring him. Luckily they chopped him quickly. Im hoping for swift action again on their latest HC bungle.

      The Glazers blew it when they fired Chucky. The tried to hire a replacement on the cheap, with Morris, (the same scenario now playing out on SF with future ex-coach Tomsula), and then they overreacted by bringing in Schiano. It took that long for those two to f*ck up Chucky's progress.

      Agreed again. They should have went with an accomplished coordinator both times instead of a young "hope he is the next Tomlin" and a toes on the line college coach.

      No one could fix this team in two years.

      Impossible to say. Just because Lovie has failed so far, doesnt mean everyone else would have. In our very own divsion, Sean Payton took over a 3-13 team in 2006 and won the division the nest season and Mike Smith took over a 4-12 team and went 11-5 the next year. It's not like the team was devoid of talent. During Schianos two offseasons, the Bucs drafted much better than the previous 3 under Morris. Schiano also had to deal with a free-falling QB who he inherited and had to replace almost immediately. Lovie may not even be able to match the amount of Schianos 1st season wins in two seasons. Lovie was handed plenty of good players and he failed to add onto that roster. He spent and wasted $63million on just defenders in two years of cap hits and the defense looks worse than it did under Schiano.

      The Glazers overreact again and fire Lovie, nobody in their right mind would take on the HC position here, unless they manage to find someone desperate for a paycheck.

      If Schiano was so bad, was it an overreaction? Also, bullsh*t. Its an NFL job and the outside world sees that the last 3 coaches have been disasters and have kept this team in the cellar. Its one of the 32 best coaching jobs in sports and the Bucs have a promising young QB and a few good defensive players.

      The Glazers, fortunately, couldn't even entice Chimp Kelly. Who would be up next, Philbin, Trestman, some other coach that no other team would touch as a head coaching candidate??

      There are plenty of coordinators out there who would jump at the chance to coach Jameis. The main problem new coaches face is the lack of a respectable QB. With that position looking very promising, the Bucs would be one of the better jobs next year right up there with Indy and Tennessee.

      I thought the p!ssing and moaning in DC was bad, and look where that has them. Snyder fires another coach and they'll be trolling high schools for talent. The Bucs are about two fired coaches away from that. The Browns are already there.

      Even with Snyder or Jerry Jones, they still would be able to get good coaches to come there. No one meddles more than those two and they still have been able to pull in SB winning coaches in Shanny and Parcells recently. An NFL job is an NFL job. Any coach that fears for their job before they even take it, shouldnt be a guy you want coaching anyway. A good confident coordinator will walk in and not even worry about how long they have because they believe they will turn things around quickly, especially with a QB in place.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      The team can't continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano's mess.

      Do you mean "fix" as "making it worse"?Lovie made his own mess. HE took a somewhat respectable defense and make it cow $hit.  Our 2 pro bowl players are playing like trash, got "HIS GUYS" for $60mm+ in free agency, all of which has failed, took over play calling and made the defense worse.At some point you need to cut your losses. If thats your definition of "making progress and SHOULD be here", then theres no point in going back and forth about it.

      Our two "Oro Bowl" players have been playing like sh!t before Livie got here. During the Morris / Schiano years, the entire defense acted like it was a two quarter game. You would think that, at halftime, someone told them the game was over. This is the first time in years that I have seen this team play a full 60 minutes.

      No. LVD and GMC earned all pro honors under Schiano. The defense played better under Schiano than they have with Lovie. Lovie won't get close to Schiano's 11 wins in 2 seasons, and he may not even match what Schiano did in his first season in a full 32 games. Schiano also handed Lovie more talent than the group that Morris handed him when he started.Schiano was bad bad bad...Lovie has been worse, and he has only himself to blame. Hardly any players remain from the Schiano or Morris eras.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      The team can\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t continue to change coaches with the frequency of the Browns. He should, and will be here. Any coach hired would need more than two years to fix Schiano\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s mess.

      Schiano handed Lovie a solid defense with 3 all pro players. Lovie blew it up and it looks 2x worse. Looks like Lovie is making his own mess.

      Schiano was a f*cking tool, who should have never been given the keys to an NFL team.

      I dont know if he was a tool...never met the guy...but it was a mistake hiring him. Luckily they chopped him quickly. Im hoping for swift action again on their latest HC bungle.

      The Glazers blew it when they fired Chucky. The tried to hire a replacement on the cheap, with Morris, (the same scenario now playing out on SF with future ex-coach Tomsula), and then they overreacted by bringing in Schiano. It took that long for those two to f*ck up Chucky's progress.

      Agreed again. They should have went with an accomplished coordinator both times instead of a young "hope he is the next Tomlin" and a toes on the line college coach.

      No one could fix this team in two years.

      Impossible to say. Just because Lovie has failed so far, doesnt mean everyone else would have. In our very own divsion, Sean Payton took over a 3-13 team in 2006 and won the division the nest season and Mike Smith took over a 4-12 team and went 11-5 the next year. It's not like the team was devoid of talent. During Schianos two offseasons, the Bucs drafted much better than the previous 3 under Morris. Schiano also had to deal with a free-falling QB who he inherited and had to replace almost immediately. Lovie may not even be able to match the amount of Schianos 1st season wins in two seasons. Lovie was handed plenty of good players and he failed to add onto that roster. He spent and wasted $63million on just defenders in two years of cap hits and the defense looks worse than it did under Schiano.

      The Glazers overreact again and fire Lovie, nobody in their right mind would take on the HC position here, unless they manage to find someone desperate for a paycheck.

      If Schiano was so bad, was it an overreaction? Also, bullsh*t. Its an NFL job and the outside world sees that the last 3 coaches have been disasters and have kept this team in the cellar. Its one of the 32 best coaching jobs in sports and the Bucs have a promising young QB and a few good defensive players.

      The Glazers, fortunately, couldn't even entice Chimp Kelly. Who would be up next, Philbin, Trestman, some other coach that no other team would touch as a head coaching candidate??

      There are plenty of coordinators out there who would jump at the chance to coach Jameis. The main problem new coaches face is the lack of a respectable QB. With that position looking very promising, the Bucs would be one of the better jobs next year right up there with Indy and Tennessee.

      I thought the p!ssing and moaning in DC was bad, and look where that has them. Snyder fires another coach and they'll be trolling high schools for talent. The Bucs are about two fired coaches away from that. The Browns are already there.

      Even with Snyder or Jerry Jones, they still would be able to get good coaches to come there. No one meddles more than those two and they still have been able to pull in SB winning coaches in Shanny and Parcells recently. An NFL job is an NFL job. Any coach that fears for their job before they even take it, shouldnt be a guy you want coaching anyway. A good confident coordinator will walk in and not even worry about how long they have because they believe they will turn things around quickly, especially with a QB in place.

      I agree with your points, for the most part. My issues are also with just chopping a new HC every two years. It just never works out, and as mentioned, rarely do you get the next Tomlin. I still think that the best way to deal with a bad defense is to fire Frazier and most of his positions coaches. If the HC can't trust the DC to run the D, why is he even on the payroll? I think the team would be best suited by keeping as much infrastructure in place as possible, and going after the root problem, which, imho, is the defense and the coaches running it. Lovie is HC. He needs to focus on the entire team, not micromanage and call plays on defense. Maybe they should bring in a better DC. How about one that runs a 3 - 4, or something more innovative. One argument against would be that our two pro-bowlers wouldn't fit a 3 - 4 scheme. Then trade them and amass a number of draft picks to build into the scheme you want to run. The Redskins just switched to a 3 - 4, (something I never thought I would see), and jettisoned some quality players this past season to do so. They're still not there, but their defense has improved greatly from the last few years. They held onto their defensive scheme way too long. Per coaches and job choice, true, Jerry Jones will always find someone. (Very possibly, again after this season. :) ) The Rdskins, under Dan Snyder, not so much. In following the last couple coaching moves, and the DC media, there was a lot of doubt about Snyder finding another coach after Shanahan. He got lucky in signing Gruden, but they are about one coach away from Cleveland territory. (I even turned down s job with the Redskins, in part because I didn't want to work for Dan Snyder. The other part was the requirement that I would have to be at Redskin Oark and FedEx Field each day, as well as working each game. The game part would have been cool, but driving from Ashburn to Latgo on a daily basis is the DC commute from hell. I passed on the job, despite all the cool benefits it would have given.)I just don't want to see the Bucs get into this rinse / repeat coaching cycle. It will continue to bring nothing but turmoil and there will always be a percentage of the fans that won't like the choice. I can't think of any team that has been successful doing this in the long run. If you look at the teams in the NFL that have been more successful, they are the ones that maintain stability and work through things. Look at the Ravens. They're having a miserable season, for a number of reasons, but Harbaugh isn't on the hot seat. You get the good with the bad. They've been decimated with injury, and losing players to free agency. They also change OC almost yearly, as their old one keeps getting hired away from them. Talk about hell for a QB. Learning s new offense each year has to be rough. Also, Pittsburgh. They stick with their staff and work things out. Additionally, as up and down as Carolina can be, Rivera has somewhat offered stability in the ciaching staff, allowing the team to work through issues. A couple years ago, no one would have been surprised if Carolina fired him. I'm just tired of the coaching merry-go-round. It's a ride that can make you sick after a while. Just sayin'

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 407

      If you want continuity, and make a change at the same time just promote Koetter and Fire Lovie simple as that. Even if Koetter doesn’t pan out I seriously doubt he will be worse than Lovie. Even Raheem Morris and Schiano are better coaches than Lovie.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      If you want continuity, and make a change at the same time just promote Koetter and Fire Lovie simple as that. Even if Koetter doesn't pan out I seriously doubt he will be worse than Lovie. Even Raheem Morris and Schiano are better coaches than Lovie.

      I don't see Koetter as an HC. Jags passed on him. Atlanta had no use for him. Even on this board, during the Bucs / Giants game, there were posters questioning the logic of his scheme. (In defense if those folk, it did seem a little run-heavy on a day when the run just wasn't working.) There is going to be a lot of potential out there in the talent depths for teams to choose from. While it's still early, Pagano, Peyton, and maybe even the Chipster, (should the Eagles tank), may be looking for jobs. I really don't see Kietter getting snapped up by anyone. There are too many other better choices. I like him as our OC, where he can continue to focus on Winston and the offense. Plus, I really don't feel like wading through the thousands of 'Fire Koetter' threads next October, if the Bucs aren't in playoff contention.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4755

      But DC why would you fire Frasier when his defense was better than the Lovie Smith defense? Why not just fire Smith?I dont see how keeping Koetter and maybe even Frasier does not constitute some continuity even if you fired Smith and just brought in another head coach. At the end of the year last year Frasier looked pretty good. I was feeling good about our defense until I saw them in action with Lovie's scheme. Personally, I would like a different defensive mentality altogether from what both Frasier and Lovie bring. But I do not see any logic in the suggestion to can Frasier when his version of the defense was clearly much, much better than Lovies Cover Who? Defense.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      I still think that the best way to deal with a bad defense is to fire Frazier and most of his positions coaches. If the HC can't trust the DC to run the D, why is he even on the payroll? I think the team would be best suited by keeping as much infrastructure in place as possible, and going after the root problem, which, imho, is the defense and the coaches running it. Lovie is HC. He needs to focus on the entire team, not micromanage and call plays on defense.

      Frazier is a dead man walking. There will most likely will be a new DC and maybe a few position coaching changes. Even still, Lovie will still be the one filling the roster with defensive players, something that has been an utter disaster so far.

      Maybe they should bring in a better DC. How about one that runs a 3 - 4, or something more innovative. One argument against would be that our two pro-bowlers wouldn't fit a 3 - 4 scheme. Then trade them and amass a number of draft picks to build into the scheme you want to run. The Redskins just switched to a 3 - 4, (something I never thought I would see), and jettisoned some quality players this past season to do so. They're still not there, but their defense has improved greatly from the last few years. They held onto their defensive scheme way too long.

      The best and maybe most realistic option would be Jim Schwartz from my POV. I highly doubt Lovie brings in a 3-4 guy. He is going to live and die doing things his way.

      Per coaches and job choice, true, Jerry Jones will always find someone. (Very possibly, again after this season. :) ) The Rdskins, under Dan Snyder, not so much. In following the last couple coaching moves, and the DC media, there was a lot of doubt about Snyder finding another coach after Shanahan. He got lucky in signing Gruden, but they are about one coach away from Cleveland territory. (I even turned down s job with the Redskins, in part because I didn't want to work for Dan Snyder. The other part was the requirement that I would have to be at Redskin Oark and FedEx Field each day, as well as working each game. The game part would have been cool, but driving from Ashburn to Latgo on a daily basis is the DC commute from hell. I passed on the job, despite all the cool benefits it would have given.)

      As bad as Snyder is, he still scored many interviews including Gruden, Zimmer, Perry Fewell, Jim Caldwell, Darrell Bevell, Sean McDermott, Vic Fangio, Greg Roman, James Franklin, Ken Whisenhunt, and Rich Bisaccia. Four of these ended up becoming HCs and several more will end up being HCs in the near future. No matter how crappy the owner is, an NFL HC job is still an NFL HC job.

      I just don't want to see the Bucs get into this rinse / repeat coaching cycle. It will continue to bring nothing but turmoil and there will always be a percentage of the fans that won't like the choice. I can't think of any team that has been successful doing this in the long run.

      The continuity argument could have been used with Schiano as well. There has to be some redeeming quality to keep and commit to a HC when they are struggling. Schiano had very little and same for Lovie. Fans want to see wins. Every season, we see first year coaches turn a team around almost immediately when they had just picked in the top 10. Oakland under Del Rio this year is a .500 team, and with their remaining schedule, have a legit shot at the postseason, this after finishing 3-13 last year. The Jets are above .500 right now and could finish above .500 under 1st year coach Todd Bowles after a 4-12 finish last season. Bowles has as many wins in 9 games as Lovie Smith has in 24 games, and they both inherited 4-12 squads. Zimmer took over a 5 win team in '14 and has went 13-11 since and they are currently on track to make the post season year two. Andy Reid took over a 2-14 Chiefs team and went 11-5 his first season and scored a post season berth. Chip Kelly took over a 4-12 team and has had two straight 10 win seasons and in his first 2 seasons had as many wins as the Bucs have had from 2011-2015. Bruce Arians took over a 5-11 team and in his first 2 seasons won 10 and 11 games, more than the Bucs have won from 2011-2015.These are just very very very recent cases. The excuses for Lovie don't fly when there are quite a few first year HCs that were able to immediately turn it around with a team that won 5 games or less in the season before they took over.

      If you look at the teams in the NFL that have been more successful, they are the ones that maintain stability and work through things. Look at the Ravens. They're having a miserable season, for a number of reasons, but Harbaugh isn't on the hot seat. Also, Pittsburgh. They stick with their staff and work things out.

      Those are both SB winning coaches who have both won SBs very recently and have dealt with roster turnover from those recent SB squads. There is a difference there between them and Lovie. Harbaugh has yet to have a losing season as a HC. This would/will be his first. Same for Tomlin. He's never had a losing season as a HC. Rivera was a lot closer to .500 than Lovie will be in both his first two seasons and Rivera won the division in his 3rd year, which gave him the momentum to make it through '14 while hovering around .500. This was the expectation for Lovie. If he were on tract to win 13 games in his first two seasons as Rivera did and had a better record in from of the home crowd, there wouldn't be as much heat coming from the fans. The idea of having 2 straight coaches get fired after two years might make you sick, but with so many new coaches having immediate success, the legitimate concerns begin to snowball.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      But DC why would you fire Frasier when his defense was better than the Lovie Smith defense? Why not just fire Smith?I dont see how keeping Koetter and maybe even Frasier does not constitute some continuity even if you fired Smith and just brought in another head coach. At the end of the year last year Frasier looked pretty good. I was feeling good about our defense until I saw them in action with Lovie's scheme. Personally, I would like a different defensive mentality altogether from what both Frasier and Lovie bring. But I do not see any logic in the suggestion to can Frasier when his version of the defense was clearly much, much better than Lovies Cover Who? Defense.

      My contention with Frasier, is two things. The first is, while the defense was showing some improvement by the end of last year, it was still pretty bad. The second is that if Lovie has lost faith in him, which by his actions he has, then Frasier is just collecting a paycheck. Lovie has started doing the work of the DC, calling plays, and pretty much shutting Frasier out. There is no real reason to keep someone that is not performing, which is the message we get when Lovie calls the defense. As far as keeping the coordinators and getting rid of Lovie, It's been rare when I've seen coordinators outlast a head coach. Hire a new head coach and they will bring in their own guys. (Unless, of course, if you coach the Browns. Then you make all of your decisions via text message from the owner and GM. :) )

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      I still think that the best way to deal with a bad defense is to fire Frazier and most of his positions coaches. If the HC can't trust the DC to run the D, why is he even on the payroll? I think the team would be best suited by keeping as much infrastructure in place as possible, and going after the root problem, which, imho, is the defense and the coaches running it. Lovie is HC. He needs to focus on the entire team, not micromanage and call plays on defense.

      Frazier is a dead man walking. There will most likely will be a new DC and maybe a few position coaching changes. Even still, Lovie will still be the one filling the roster with defensive players, something that has been an utter disaster so far.

      Maybe they should bring in a better DC. How about one that runs a 3 - 4, or something more innovative. One argument against would be that our two pro-bowlers wouldn't fit a 3 - 4 scheme. Then trade them and amass a number of draft picks to build into the scheme you want to run. The Redskins just switched to a 3 - 4, (something I never thought I would see), and jettisoned some quality players this past season to do so. They're still not there, but their defense has improved greatly from the last few years. They held onto their defensive scheme way too long.

      The best and maybe most realistic option would be Jim Schwartz from my POV. I highly doubt Lovie brings in a 3-4 guy. He is going to live and die doing things his way.

      Per coaches and job choice, true, Jerry Jones will always find someone. (Very possibly, again after this season. :) ) The Rdskins, under Dan Snyder, not so much. In following the last couple coaching moves, and the DC media, there was a lot of doubt about Snyder finding another coach after Shanahan. He got lucky in signing Gruden, but they are about one coach away from Cleveland territory. (I even turned down s job with the Redskins, in part because I didn't want to work for Dan Snyder. The other part was the requirement that I would have to be at Redskin Oark and FedEx Field each day, as well as working each game. The game part would have been cool, but driving from Ashburn to Latgo on a daily basis is the DC commute from hell. I passed on the job, despite all the cool benefits it would have given.)

      As bad as Snyder is, he still scored many interviews including Gruden, Zimmer, Perry Fewell, Jim Caldwell, Darrell Bevell, Sean McDermott, Vic Fangio, Greg Roman, James Franklin, Ken Whisenhunt, and Rich Bisaccia. Four of these ended up becoming HCs and several more will end up being HCs in the near future. No matter how crappy the owner is, an NFL HC job is still an NFL HC job.

      I just don't want to see the Bucs get into this rinse / repeat coaching cycle. It will continue to bring nothing but turmoil and there will always be a percentage of the fans that won't like the choice. I can't think of any team that has been successful doing this in the long run.

      The continuity argument could have been used with Schiano as well. There has to be some redeeming quality to keep and commit to a HC when they are struggling. Schiano had very little and same for Lovie. Fans want to see wins. Every season, we see first year coaches turn a team around almost immediately when they had just picked in the top 10. Oakland under Del Rio this year is a .500 team, and with their remaining schedule, have a legit shot at the postseason, this after finishing 3-13 last year. The Jets are above .500 right now and could finish above .500 under 1st year coach Todd Bowles after a 4-12 finish last season. Bowles has as many wins in 9 games as Lovie Smith has in 24 games, and they both inherited 4-12 squads. Zimmer took over a 5 win team in '14 and has went 13-11 since and they are currently on track to make the post season year two. Andy Reid took over a 2-14 Chiefs team and went 11-5 his first season and scored a post season berth. Chip Kelly took over a 4-12 team and has had two straight 10 win seasons and in his first 2 seasons had as many wins as the Bucs have had from 2011-2015. Bruce Arians took over a 5-11 team and in his first 2 seasons won 10 and 11 games, more than the Bucs have won from 2011-2015.These are just very very very recent cases. The excuses for Lovie don't fly when there are quite a few first year HCs that were able to immediately turn it around with a team that won 5 games or less in the season before they took over.

      If you look at the teams in the NFL that have been more successful, they are the ones that maintain stability and work through things. Look at the Ravens. They're having a miserable season, for a number of reasons, but Harbaugh isn't on the hot seat. Also, Pittsburgh. They stick with their staff and work things out.

      Those are both SB winning coaches who have both won SBs very recently and have dealt with roster turnover from those recent SB squads. There is a difference there between them and Lovie. Harbaugh has yet to have a losing season as a HC. This would/will be his first. Same for Tomlin. He's never had a losing season as a HC. Rivera was a lot closer to .500 than Lovie will be in both his first two seasons and Rivera won the division in his 3rd year, which gave him the momentum to make it through '14 while hovering around .500. This was the expectation for Lovie. If he were on tract to win 13 games in his first two seasons as Rivera did and had a better record in from of the home crowd, there wouldn't be as much heat coming from the fans. The idea of having 2 straight coaches get fired after two years might make you sick, but with so many new coaches having immediate success, the legitimate concerns begin to snowball.

      I agree. Frasier, and a few others are probably done. They appear to have little input on the sidelines during games. Schwartz would be good, but I'd still like to see a complete makeover. I don't doubt that you are correct. Lovie will probably stick with a scheme he's had success with over the years. It's like the Chipster changing his offense. I'll still hope, though. :)On the other new coaches, you can see a reason why their successful. Todd Bowles came into a Jets team loaded with talent that had Rex Ryan coaching for a number of years. With the Vikings, kind of the same thing. They had a lot of talent, but lacked a QB. No one is going to win with Ponder under Center. Zimmer came in at the right time, just as they were able to get Bridgewater. IMHO, that was the missing element in Minnesota. With Oakland, it's a little less obvious to discern, but Del Rio came onto the job with a lot of talent on the roster. Carr is in his second year, and they were able to get their missing link, Amari Cooper, in this past draft. They've also been bad enough to benefit from a good number of top five choices over the past few years. Another example is Denver. John Fox was fired for losing in the playoffs. There's almost no way that Kubiak could blow that gig; however, even Fox, with some of his Denver folk in tow couldn't fix Chicago in one year. I think they've actually regressed, although Cutler is looking less bad under the new staff. I'm all for choosing the right coach and being successful. I just don't see any better options prior to giving L&L a draft to see if they can draft some defense. While their FA acquisitions have been spotty, I can't complain too much about the last two drafts. That is the difference between L&L and Dominik, Morris, Schiano. The drafts were horrid. No one I knew were ever thrilled with any of the picks. I can't think of a single pick where there wasn't a better option on the board at the time of the pick. I'd like to see how the new staff handles a draft, now that the majority of the offense is in place. Yeah, we're going to need a new receiver to eventually replace Jackson. The O-Line isn't finished, as Mankins and Gosdar are on the decline, and the Muscle Hamster may need to be replaced, but this next draft should be about defense. Kind of why I suggest trading McCoy and David. At the moment, their value is high, and we could use the picks they would bring. Also, as the team is rebuilding, their talent will be in decline by the time the team is able to be competitive. (I know those trades won't happen, but I could see where they make sense.)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      I'm all for choosing the right coach and being successful. I just don't see any better options prior to giving L&L a draft to see if they can draft some defense. While their FA acquisitions have been spotty, I can't complain too much about the last two drafts. That is the difference between L&L and Dominik, Morris, Schiano. The drafts were horrid. No one I knew were ever thrilled with any of the picks. I can't think of a single pick where there wasn't a better option on the board at the time of the pick.

      There will be plenty of other options. There is a good chance Payton moves on from NO, but I see him heading here to Indy if he becomes available. My personal preference would be Hue Jackson. He's been a successful coordinator and only got one 8-8 season with the tumultuous Raiders. He is a great combo of player friendly and doesn't take any sh*t. Other quality guys who will get interviewers will be Sean McDermot, David Shaw, Josh McDaniels, Greg Roman, etc.As far as drafts go, yes, Morris' drafts were absolutely god awful. The only pick in 3 drafts worth a damn was McCoy. With Schiano, he busted hard with Barron, but he had quality picks with Martin, LVD, Gholston. There are several other players from those drafts that are still around including Banks, Spence, Glennon and Tandy. Hell, Schiano's first draft even with busting on Barron, was better than all 3 of Morris' drafts combined. 2013's picks gave us Revis, Banks, Glennon, Gholston, and Spence. Not terrible.

      I'd like to see how the new staff handles a draft, now that the majority of the offense is in place. Yeah, we're going to need a new receiver to eventually replace Jackson. The O-Line isn't finished, as Mankins and Gosdar are on the decline, and the Muscle Hamster may need to be replaced, but this next draft should be about defense. Kind of why I suggest trading McCoy and David. At the moment, their value is high, and we could use the picks they would bring. Also, as the team is rebuilding, their talent will be in decline by the time the team is able to be competitive. (I know those trades won't happen, but I could see where they make sense.)

      I hope we aren't pigeon-holing ourselves into taking defensive players with every quality pick in this draft. It needs to be BPA. I think there are still concerns on offense. Donovan has been "meh". Dotson will eventually take the RT position back from Cherilus. Mankins will be gone. Hawley is average to below average. Will probably need to replace Jackson soon as well as keeping our eyes open for a quality slot WR. They will probably attempt to address a few positions in FA again. Hopefully it isn't as big of a failure as that has been their 1st two FA signing periods.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2630

      Too early to say. If he gets 6 wins this year and the defense shows progress with a settled secondary, I think he deserves to and will stay. Anything less than 5, I think he should go, but I bet the Glazers will keep him. Only possible way Love isn’t here next year is if they lose out, IMO.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 655

      In 2 yrs, Lovie has drafted only 1 defensive player,  and for a 4th round pick,  Alexander has turned out surprisingly well.I'm curious to see what the results would be with 3 or so higher defensive picks.3 more good defensive players would make a marked difference in our overall defense.Right now the overall quality of players on defense is not very high, and this limited quality of players could be a downer for the 3 good players we now have on defense.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      In 2 yrs, Lovie has drafted only 1 defensive player,  and for a 4th round pick,  Alexander has turned out surprisingly well.I'm curious to see what the results would be with 3 or so higher defensive picks.3 more good defensive players would make a marked difference in our overall defense.Right now the overall quality of players on defense is not very high, and this limited quality of players could be a downer for the 3 good players we now have on defense.

      1. In two offseasons, Lovie chose to draft just 1 defensive player and spend $63 million on new defensive players in two years worth of cap hits. 2. While you don't expect a 4th round LB to come in and immediately supplant the LB that you went out and bought in FA to be the starter, Kwon overall has been below average. Yes, he had a great performance vs. the Falcons, but he's had more bad games than good this year. I'd pump the brakes on calling him a good player at this point.3. I'm not so sure 3 more good defensive players would make a huge difference. First, the likelihood of getting 3 good defensive starters from 1 draft is extremely rare. Statistically, it would be rare for the Bucs to even hit on their 1st rounder this year, given that they hit on their last two. You rarely see teams hit with their top pick 3 years in a row. Even if they did and landed three quality players...Alterraun Verner had 4 good seasons before coming to Tampa. Michael Johnson was a top 15 pass rusher in both the combined 2012-13 seasons. Dashon Goldson was a 2012 All Pro. Mark Barron was a top pick in '12 and is now playing well as a LB in STL. Lovie has also went out and signed guys familiar with his system in Conte, Melton, Moore, Carter, Wright, Jennings, and none of them are making noticeable contributions. I think there is plenty of evidence to show that even if we got the top CB in this draft, he would just get lost in Lovie's Cover Who? scheme.Lovie was handed a defense with 4 all pro players and he spent $63 million on 2 years worth of cap hits for vets who were supposed to be long term answers at key positions. The result has been the worst defense we have seen in the post Kiffin era. Now were supposed to believe that in 1 draft he can find the necessary rookie studs to come in right away without any NFL experience and right the defense.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1198

      In 2 yrs, Lovie has drafted only 1 defensive player,  and for a 4th round pick,  Alexander has turned out surprisingly well.I'm curious to see what the results would be with 3 or so higher defensive picks.3 more good defensive players would make a marked difference in our overall defense.Right now the overall quality of players on defense is not very high, and this limited quality of players could be a downer for the 3 good players we now have on defense.

      1. In two offseasons, Lovie chose to draft just 1 defensive player and spend $63 million on new defensive players in two years worth of cap hits. 2. While you don't expect a 4th round LB to come in and immediately supplant the LB that you went out and bought in FA to be the starter, Kwon overall has been below average. Yes, he had a great performance vs. the Falcons, but he's had more bad games than good this year. I'd pump the brakes on calling him a good player at this point.3. I'm not so sure 3 more good defensive players would make a huge difference. First, the likelihood of getting 3 good defensive starters from 1 draft is extremely rare. Statistically, it would be rare for the Bucs to even hit on their 1st rounder this year, given that they hit on their last two. You rarely see teams hit with their top pick 3 years in a row. Even if they did and landed three quality players...Alterraun Verner had 4 good seasons before coming to Tampa. Michael Johnson was a top 15 pass rusher in both the combined 2012-13 seasons. Dashon Goldson was a 2012 All Pro. Mark Barron was a top pick in '12 and is now playing well as a LB in STL. Lovie has also went out and signed guys familiar with his system in Conte, Melton, Moore, Carter, Wright, Jennings, and none of them are making noticeable contributions. I think there is plenty of evidence to show that even if we got the top CB in this draft, he would just get lost in Lovie's Cover Who? scheme.Lovie was handed a defense with 4 all pro players and he spent $63 million on 2 years worth of cap hits for vets who were supposed to be long term answers at key positions. The result has been the worst defense we have seen in the post Kiffin era. Now were supposed to believe that in 1 draft he can find the necessary rookie studs to come in right away without any NFL experience and right the defense.

      Drop the micLogic wins out over blind Hope everyday

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4755

      But DC why would you fire Frasier when his defense was better than the Lovie Smith defense? Why not just fire Smith?I dont see how keeping Koetter and maybe even Frasier does not constitute some continuity even if you fired Smith and just brought in another head coach. At the end of the year last year Frasier looked pretty good. I was feeling good about our defense until I saw them in action with Lovie's scheme. Personally, I would like a different defensive mentality altogether from what both Frasier and Lovie bring. But I do not see any logic in the suggestion to can Frasier when his version of the defense was clearly much, much better than Lovies Cover Who? Defense.

      My contention with Frasier, is two things. The first is, while the defense was showing some improvement by the end of last year, it was still pretty bad. The second is that if Lovie has lost faith in him, which by his actions he has, then Frasier is just collecting a paycheck. Lovie has started doing the work of the DC, calling plays, and pretty much shutting Frasier out. There is no real reason to keep someone that is not performing, which is the message we get when Lovie calls the defense. As far as keeping the coordinators and getting rid of Lovie, It's been rare when I've seen coordinators outlast a head coach. Hire a new head coach and they will bring in their own guys. (Unless, of course, if you coach the Browns. Then you make all of your decisions via text message from the owner and GM. :) )

      So, keeping Lovie is strictly to maintain continuity? I did not see any compelling argument to keep Smith. The logic seems to be that since Smith is the HC and he demoted Frasier that Frasier should go. But you seem to be ignoring the fact that Frasiers defense was doing well last year. In fact, you tried to downplay his success last year with less talent by saying the defense "was still pretty bad". Not in comparison to Lovies 2015 defense it wasn't.The last 8 games of 2014 we gave up 162 points, averaging 20.25 points per game and we gave up over 30 points once.The first 8 games of 2015 we have given up 231 points, averaging 28.875 points per game. In 2015 thus far we have given up over 30 points per game a whopping 5 times in 8 games.You can not win with this defense, period. But if we had last years version of this defense we would probably be 5-3 instead of 3-5 right now and looking at the playoffs for the first time since Gruden left.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      The “continuity” excuse wont cut it for me.You use that particular excuse when your team is 6-8 wins and climbing. NOT when you've just witnessed back to back seasons of suck that net you that same amount of wins in the course of two seasons.Two seasons is all any coach needs today. Back when communication wasn't as good? Sure. If you are cap strapped and cant do much until you move players, ok, sure. If your team just completely sucks in general, again, another fine excuse. But this isnt any of those things. These are all problems lovie himself ignored, or just failed to make work.And, like schiano, he is much too stubborn for his own good. He would rather take the ship down, than change the course he charted. The titanic was much the same scenario. Playing cbs so far off isnt a sound tactic. Matter of fact, it isnt a tactic, its just dumb headbanging. Expecially when you've had weeks to realize that your line of four isnt cutting it. Lets not blitz pur lbers, lets play off in the backfield, and sooner or later(their words) that nut will crack...So, its not just a matter of lovie just losing games. Its about HOW he is losing them. Blowouts or comebacks, all helped with bad coaching. Penalties that shouldnt happen, ..those are something we want to keep? Boring/readable defense, ...thats worth some continuity, right? The emotionless attitude than seems to be infecting the lockerroom, ..we got to keep that! The most conservative playcalling, intermingled with some seriously dumb playcalls, ...man, can we have another year of that, please? Signing buddies that dont work out, ..because i wanted schiano to do more of that?Point being, the guy, outside of draft, has been horrible as a headcoach. I dont think he gets kicked until seasons end, and i dont want him to be until then, but unless there is a massive improvement, even IF wins, i still believe he should go. The game has passed him by, and he is simply too fixed in his ways to actually change anything without having to "try it out" first (which would be like hiring a new experianced hc anyway).The guy is a good person, but has deteriorated his football knowledge quite a bit. He would still be good back in the 90's, but thats not saying so much for now.I wish him well, because if not this year, next. Sorry, but i doubt he ever has this team up to snuff.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      But DC why would you fire Frasier when his defense was better than the Lovie Smith defense? Why not just fire Smith?I dont see how keeping Koetter and maybe even Frasier does not constitute some continuity even if you fired Smith and just brought in another head coach. At the end of the year last year Frasier looked pretty good. I was feeling good about our defense until I saw them in action with Lovie's scheme. Personally, I would like a different defensive mentality altogether from what both Frasier and Lovie bring. But I do not see any logic in the suggestion to can Frasier when his version of the defense was clearly much, much better than Lovies Cover Who? Defense.

      My contention with Frasier, is two things. The first is, while the defense was showing some improvement by the end of last year, it was still pretty bad. The second is that if Lovie has lost faith in him, which by his actions he has, then Frasier is just collecting a paycheck. Lovie has started doing the work of the DC, calling plays, and pretty much shutting Frasier out. There is no real reason to keep someone that is not performing, which is the message we get when Lovie calls the defense. As far as keeping the coordinators and getting rid of Lovie, It's been rare when I've seen coordinators outlast a head coach. Hire a new head coach and they will bring in their own guys. (Unless, of course, if you coach the Browns. Then you make all of your decisions via text message from the owner and GM. :) )

      So, keeping Lovie is strictly to maintain continuity? I did not see any compelling argument to keep Smith. The logic seems to be that since Smith is the HC and he demoted Frasier that Frasier should go. But you seem to be ignoring the fact that Frasiers defense was doing well last year. In fact, you tried to downplay his success last year with less talent by saying the defense "was still pretty bad". Not in comparison to Lovies 2015 defense it wasn't.The last 8 games of 2014 we gave up 162 points, averaging 20.25 points per game and we gave up over 30 points once.The first 8 games of 2015 we have given up 231 points, averaging 28.875 points per game. In 2015 thus far we have given up over 30 points per game a whopping 5 times in 8 games.You can not win with this defense, period. But if we had last years version of this defense we would probably be 5-3 instead of 3-5 right now and looking at the playoffs for the first time since Gruden left.

      Not really continuity, but more for stability. Despite some questionable schemes against the Giants, where some folks on the board were calling for Koetter's head as the game was being played, the offense is much better than last year. (Granted, we could have used a high school coach last year and done better than Arroyo, but there were some close games we could have won had the offense been able to put one extra score on the board. I'm not complaining, as last year's bad play gave us Winston.)The reason I mention stability is that Winston would benefit from having Koetter as OC next year. I don't see Koeeter as a viable HC candidate, so if a new regime comes in, they'll most likely clean house and bring in their own guys. Winston would be learning another offense. That may or may not hinder his growth; however, I feel that Flacco suffers from yearly OC changes, and Winston is still just a rookie. So, yeah, I'd rather keep the offensive staff in place. On the defensive side, I agree. The defense did get better towards the end of the year, and even kept some games close. They also gave up, what, like around 62 points to the Falcons, and had a few other blowouts. They were inconsistent. Whether it was Frazier's fault, or not, Lovie doesn't seem to trust him. His actions, by taking over the defense, support this. I just don't see Frazier returning. I could be wrong, but Lovie may extend his tenure by replacing defensive staff. (From what I've heard, Philbin was fired due to his refusal to fire the DC. End result, Philbin is fired, and the DC is gone a few days later.)

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      I'm all for choosing the right coach and being successful. I just don't see any better options prior to giving L&L a draft to see if they can draft some defense. While their FA acquisitions have been spotty, I can't complain too much about the last two drafts. That is the difference between L&L and Dominik, Morris, Schiano. The drafts were horrid. No one I knew were ever thrilled with any of the picks. I can't think of a single pick where there wasn't a better option on the board at the time of the pick.

      There will be plenty of other options. There is a good chance Payton moves on from NO, but I see him heading here to Indy if he becomes available. My personal preference would be Hue Jackson. He's been a successful coordinator and only got one 8-8 season with the tumultuous Raiders. He is a great combo of player friendly and doesn't take any sh*t. Other quality guys who will get interviewers will be Sean McDermot, David Shaw, Josh McDaniels, Greg Roman, etc.As far as drafts go, yes, Morris' drafts were absolutely god awful. The only pick in 3 drafts worth a damn was McCoy. With Schiano, he busted hard with Barron, but he had quality picks with Martin, LVD, Gholston. There are several other players from those drafts that are still around including Banks, Spence, Glennon and Tandy. Hell, Schiano's first draft even with busting on Barron, was better than all 3 of Morris' drafts combined. 2013's picks gave us Revis, Banks, Glennon, Gholston, and Spence. Not terrible.

      I'd like to see how the new staff handles a draft, now that the majority of the offense is in place. Yeah, we're going to need a new receiver to eventually replace Jackson. The O-Line isn't finished, as Mankins and Gosdar are on the decline, and the Muscle Hamster may need to be replaced, but this next draft should be about defense. Kind of why I suggest trading McCoy and David. At the moment, their value is high, and we could use the picks they would bring. Also, as the team is rebuilding, their talent will be in decline by the time the team is able to be competitive. (I know those trades won't happen, but I could see where they make sense.)

      I hope we aren't pigeon-holing ourselves into taking defensive players with every quality pick in this draft. It needs to be BPA. I think there are still concerns on offense. Donovan has been "meh". Dotson will eventually take the RT position back from Cherilus. Mankins will be gone. Hawley is average to below average. Will probably need to replace Jackson soon as well as keeping our eyes open for a quality slot WR. They will probably attempt to address a few positions in FA again. Hopefully it isn't as big of a failure as that has been their 1st two FA signing periods.

      I agree. If Payton leaves New Orleans, I see him going to Indy. Pagano, like John Fox, will probably also get picked up by some team, without sitting out a year. He's this year's SF vs. Harbaugh, plus, I believe, he is respected enough in the league to land another job. Possibly Tennessee or Jacksonville? Wouldn't that be fun? :)Yeah, Hue Jackson is a good candidate that will likely get picked up this year. He had, imho, a bit of a raw deal in Oakland. The Rauders have been bad for a long time. Going 8-8 in Oakland is almost a success story. I also think Shanahan gets a few interviews. He may be happy in Atlanta, but just Like when Kubiak said he was staying in Baltimore, sometimes a deal comes along that you can't pass up. I'm still not sold on McDaniels. I think he is best suited to stay where he is. During his HC gig, he was hated by the players to the point of a few of them blasting him openly. There are numerous links, but I'm on my phone, so posting links is a pain. On the drafts, it wasn't so much some of the players that Schiano drafted, just that there were better options on the board when he chose the ones he did. On the Glennon puck, I don't count that as a good one. Glennon is the Kirk Cousins of Tanpa Bay. Schiano saw him as a starter, but he will always be a backup. To prove this to himself, he will sign with another team as soon as he hits free agency, but I doubt he is more successful than Cousins or Hoyer. If he would accept that his role is a backup, he would be great to have on any roster, but he isn't there yet. He needs to get a starting gig and lose it. Maybe then he accepts his stays and has a long career. Good backups will always be in demand. So as not to start another response, in your other post, you mention bad use of money against the cap. I do not fault L&L for tying up some cap space to take a chance on some players. The Bucs have a massive amount of room in the cap, and will over the next few years. If the cap was as bad as Seattle or Dallas, to the point of not being able to bring back all of your players, yeah I would agree; however, the Bucs have more cap space than most teams and did very little with it during this season. On the draft, I agree. I don't want the team to have tunnel vision on defense. It should be BPA, for all positions other than QB, but I'm still hoping that BPA will be a defensive player, and maybe a WR / Return Specialist. (I was hoping we could have signed Lockett (sp?) this year, but Seattle got him instead.)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1571

      I think we’ll see more of the Lovie show next year, but I think he should be shown the door.  There are 2 options I would much rather see.option 1 if you're a believer in continuity- Keep Licht, promote Koetter to HC, retain the offensive staff, lose the entire defensive staff, hire a new DC and make him pinky swear to use an aggressive scheme that fits our playersoption 2 if you believe continuity is overrated- keep Licht, blow up the entire coaching staff and hire Hue JacksonI would be fine with either choice.  Koetter and his crew have done a really good job, but I also think Jackson is going to keep whoever gives him another HC chance (will happen this offseason I'm sure) competitive for the next decade.  It would be nice if that were us.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      I think we'll see more of the Lovie show next year, but I think he should be shown the door.  There are 2 options I would much rather see.option 1 if you're a believer in continuity- Keep Licht, promote Koetter to HC, retain the offensive staff, lose the entire defensive staff, hire a new DC and make him pinky swear to use an aggressive scheme that fits our playersoption 2 if you believe continuity is overrated- keep Licht, blow up the entire coaching staff and hire Hue JacksonI would be fine with either choice.  Koetter and his crew have done a really good job, but I also think Jackson is going to keep whoever gives him another HC chance (will happen this offseason I'm sure) competitive for the next decade.  It would be nice if that were us.

      I do agree that we should keep Licht. He seems, so far, to be much better than Dominik, and I think he deserves the support of the owners.On option 1, my main issue is that I just don't see Koetter as a viable HC. He's been passed over by Jacksonville and Atlanta, plus there are much better candidates coming down the road. Case in point, as you mentioned, Hue Jackson.My choice, would be to give Lovie one more year and see how it goes. If it goes well, great, if not, go after Kyle Shanahan. He would make a great HC, imho; however, I'm not certain he take a HC job for the next season, particularly if Atlanta comes close to doing well in the playoffs. He may wish to stay an extra year and push for winning the division, along with the current coaching staff in Atlanta. (I could be wrong, but there are going to be some decent options at HC this year for other teams, so he may not get many interviews in the upcoming off-season.)

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      I'm still not sold on McDaniels. I think he is best suited to stay where he is. During his HC gig, he was hated by the players to the point of a few of them blasting him openly. There are numerous links, but I'm on my phone, so posting links is a pain.

      I heard the same thing on McDaniels. A few weeks ago, Champ Bailey was on a radio interview and he said that McDaniels was probably the smartest coach he played for, but that he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He wouldn't be high on my list of choices, but he will get interviews and a second chance soon.

      On the drafts, it wasn't so much some of the players that Schiano drafted, just that there were better options on the board when he chose the ones he did. On the Glennon puck, I don't count that as a good one. Glennon is the Kirk Cousins of Tanpa Bay. Schiano saw him as a starter, but he will always be a backup. To prove this to himself, he will sign with another team as soon as he hits free agency, but I doubt he is more successful than Cousins or Hoyer. If he would accept that his role is a backup, he would be great to have on any roster, but he isn't there yet. He needs to get a starting gig and lose it. Maybe then he accepts his stays and has a long career. Good backups will always be in demand.

      I think you could say "they could have had someone better" for just about every coach or every pick. Even Belichick over the past 5 years has had many picks where he could have had better players. As far as Glennon goes, he's better than most QBs drafted, but still doesn't have a high ceiling. He is overrated by several on this board. I don't fault Schiano too much for that pick. He saw that Freeman wasn't committed and he took who he thought was the best QB in the draft to try and give him a replacement for Freeman as quickly as possible.

      So as not to start another response, in your other post, you mention bad use of money against the cap. I do not fault L&L for tying up some cap space to take a chance on some players. The Bucs have a massive amount of room in the cap, and will over the next few years. If the cap was as bad as Seattle or Dallas, to the point of not being able to bring back all of your players, yeah I would agree; however, the Bucs have more cap space than most teams and did very little with it during this season.

      That would make sense if those were the only players they could have signed. They weren't though. They had specific targets for scheme fits and they signed them fairly quickly in free agency. The Bucs also didn't have a ton of cap room in Lovie's first season. That is why they cut Revis. They figured they could use the $ they were due to pay him and get 3 players for that cost. All three ended up being busts along with most of the other FA acquisitions. The argument used against Schiano in "they could have had someone better" also applies to their choices in who they brought in as FAs.

    • dalaca

      Participant
      Post count: 1975

      I'm still not sold on McDaniels. I think he is best suited to stay where he is. During his HC gig, he was hated by the players to the point of a few of them blasting him openly. There are numerous links, but I'm on my phone, so posting links is a pain.

      I heard the same thing on McDaniels. A few weeks ago, Champ Bailey was on a radio interview and he said that McDaniels was probably the smartest coach he played for, but that he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He wouldn't be high on my list of choices, but he will get interviews and a second chance soon.

      On the drafts, it wasn't so much some of the players that Schiano drafted, just that there were better options on the board when he chose the ones he did. On the Glennon puck, I don't count that as a good one. Glennon is the Kirk Cousins of Tanpa Bay. Schiano saw him as a starter, but he will always be a backup. To prove this to himself, he will sign with another team as soon as he hits free agency, but I doubt he is more successful than Cousins or Hoyer. If he would accept that his role is a backup, he would be great to have on any roster, but he isn't there yet. He needs to get a starting gig and lose it. Maybe then he accepts his stays and has a long career. Good backups will always be in demand.

      I think you could say "they could have had someone better" for just about every coach or every pick. Even Belichick over the past 5 years has had many picks where he could have had better players. As far as Glennon goes, he's better than most QBs drafted, but still doesn't have a high ceiling. He is overrated by several on this board. I don't fault Schiano too much for that pick. He saw that Freeman wasn't committed and he took who he thought was the best QB in the draft to try and give him a replacement for Freeman as quickly as possible.

      So as not to start another response, in your other post, you mention bad use of money against the cap. I do not fault L&L for tying up some cap space to take a chance on some players. The Bucs have a massive amount of room in the cap, and will over the next few years. If the cap was as bad as Seattle or Dallas, to the point of not being able to bring back all of your players, yeah I would agree; however, the Bucs have more cap space than most teams and did very little with it during this season.

      That would make sense if those were the only players they could have signed. They weren't though. They had specific targets for scheme fits and they signed them fairly quickly in free agency. The Bucs also didn't have a ton of cap room in Lovie's first season. That is why they cut Revis. They figured they could use the $ they were due to pay him and get 3 players for that cost. All three ended up being busts along with most of the other FA acquisitions. The argument used against Schiano in "they could have had someone better" also applies to their choices in who they brought in as FAs.

      I agree, McDaniels probably will get some interviews, although it's interesting that he didn't get any of the gigs from the past season. Possibly his rep towards players is still haunting him a bit. I read a few articles where players openly complained about his demeanor, as well as his treatment of veteran players as if they were rookies. A couple articlesmention that he had completely lost the locker room, as well as the respect of the players. I'm just glad he didn't end up here. While he'll get some interest, I think he is bet served by staying in NE. Let him inherit the HC job there.Per the cap, and FA, yeah, the first season was pretty much all misses; however, I think that caused L&L to go to the other extreme and not try to recruit viable players this year. It's almost as if that first season caused them to be gun shy. Some players we could have at least taken a stab at have done quite well on the team that signed them. (Personally, I think Suh has been the biggest disappointment; however, with all of the turmoil in Miami, who's to really put a finger on how much of that is his fault. Next season will be interesting to see how he does under new leadership. Philbin, et al really should have been let go at the end of last saeson, imho.)Per picks and Glennon, I agree. He is a very good asset, and was a good pickup at the time, considering he wasn't a first round option. The problem with Glennon is, as I mentioned, I just don't see him as a viable starter; however, since he sees himself that way, we'll most likely lose him. I like him, and hope the best for him. I just don't see him as a starter.With reference to Freeman, that's a tough call. When the Bucs drafted him, I was watching at a local sports pub in Clearwater. No one, including myself, thought that Freeman was a good pick, and pretty much the entire bar was griping about the pick. Some more than others. That said, he did, initially play better than I expected; however, he was way to prone to throw INTs at critical moments. (Kinda like Jason Campbell and Kirk Cousins. (the Redskins really have had some bad QB choices in recent years.)) The thing that makes Freeman a difficult subject is, while I never really felt he was god for the team, I still didn't like the way his situation was handled. Obviously, I have no idea what happened behind the scenes, but from the fans perspective, he was somewhat hosed by the organization.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      Some people would rather he not even coach, and still be here. Amazing.Cannot have it both ways guys. And, IF he's not coaching offense or defense, there really is no point in him being here. That would mean he's just staying to stay. Or, stay here like hes some signal caller, overseer, or draft expert, which isnt the case either.He was brought here to bring forth a defense comparable to the olden times. Do you ever think we will see that again, with lovie?I dont think so.

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