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    • Nobody

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      Post count: 6485

      I did a post on this a few years ago (or last year, I can’t recall), but I’ve updated it.

      This research/post is about (a) roster construction, (b) resources as actual Draft Capital tied to on-ball players (not just OL, but iDL and Edge as well), and (c) Day 1/2 “Premium Picks” (1st – 3rd round where you should be drafting on-ball players and where you should expect to find starters and most typically immediate ones).

      The teams I looked at compared to us in the old post were us, Baltimore, New Orleans, Dallas, San Francisco, Tennessee, Indianapolis, New England from 2015-2019. I’m not looking at all of those, but lets update the research to the present 5 year interval from 2016-2020 for us, Baltimore, New Orleans, Indy, Tennessee as its my opinion that those 4 teams over this period are a combination (i) the best roster construction approach while (ii) having the best combination of OL + DL/Pass Rush in the entire NFL (San Francisco is just outside of that loop, and their Run Game is propped up by the best OC and Run Game coordinator in the entire NFL). If you took the QB off of that team and put Brady on each of those teams (as a control), its my opinion that every_single_one of those teams would win 12+ games handily. Their rosters are better than ours in key places and they’ve all been PROFOUNDLY better than us on Teams the last 3ish years (where we’ve been the worst in the league…which is a HUGE indictment of the bottom of the roster…which is always about roster construction). We’ve routinely been a bottom feeder in Punt and Kick Coverage while these teams are routinely upper echelon.

      This will capture Wirfs for us (we’re basically trading the endpoint of DSmith and Marpet for Wirfs – which is actually more Draft Capital investment but less total players).

      TAMPA BAY

      TOTAL 10199
      OL (1274 – 2)
      EDGE (510 – 1)
      IDL (1200 – 1)

      TOTAL (2984 – 4)

      BALTIMORE

      TOTAL 8395
      OL (2272 – 3)
      EDGE (795 – 3)
      IDL (1175 – 4)

      TOTAL (4242 – 10)

      NEW ORLEANS

      TOTAL 7495
      OL (1750 – 3)
      EDGE (1408 – 3)
      IDL (1200 – 1)

      TOTAL (4358 – 7)

      INDIANAPOLIS

      TOTAL 9050
      OL (3210 – 4)
      EDGE (1250 – 4)
      IDL (0 – 0)

      TOTAL (4360 – 8)

      TENNESSEE

      TOTAL 9875
      OL (2220- 3)
      EDGE (1070- 2)
      IDL (1325 – 2)

      TOTAL (4615 – 7)

      +++++++++++++++++++++

      Conclusions on this should be pretty self-evident.

      1) DRAFT CAPITAL DIFFERENTIAL – Its massive everywhere except Tennessee which had some lean years like us. We still have a significant edge over them in Draft Capital however. In terms of edge in Draft Capital (translating it to 2nd round picks) over every single one of these teams, Licht has had the following advantage:

      BALTIMORE – 4 * mid 2nd round picks
      NEW ORLEANS – 9 * late 2nd round picks
      INDIANAPOLIS – 3 * mid/late 2nd round picks
      TENNESSEE – 1 * mid 2nd round pick

      That is an OBSCENE advantage in Premium Draft Capital over everyone who isn’t Tennessee (and mind boggling for NO) during that interval. And an extra mid 2nd is a big deal in its own right.

      2) DESPITE THAT PREMIUM DRAFT CAPITAL ADVANTAGE, the investment differential in on-ball players is basically the inverse! All of them have drafted nearly twice as many on-ball players as we have during that interval! All of them have drafted more in each area and with much more capital invested than us (except Indy with IDL).

      3) We’re old and thin on-ball on the defensive side. They’re all pretty much universally the inverse.

      4) We’re probably about 12th in the league in the OL in 2020 (bulwarked by Brady getting the ball out) and we’ve been around 16-18 overall the last 3 years. All of those OLs have been better than us and are better than us. We also invest a huge amount of salary into our OL. Only Indy spends more than us (with Tennessee and Baltimore not even close). Outside of Jensen (who I expect/hope will be jettisoned in the offseason), we are extremely young on the O-line, so there is that.

      5) Finally, I wouldn’t be having this problem if we would have just made some very, very minor changes in draft capital allocation. Imagine if, in rd 2, we took Edge Trey Hendrickson instead of MJ Stewart in 2018 and iOL Erik McCoy over SMB in 2019 ?

      Outside of the Agauyo albatross (that will never come off), this conversation wouldn’t exist. The numbers above would still be skewed, but it wouldn’t look remotely as bad (in the skewing and in the relative health of our on-ball players at all and particularly in light of the available capital and the capital investment).

    • theknees

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      Post count: 981

      Matters.

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3234

      To your 5th point, imagine this

      2018- Orlando Brown over MJ Stewart
      2019- Josh Allen over Devin White (This LB/DT hybrid Levon Kirkland role has another 2 weeks before its exposed)
      2019- Risner, Jenkins or McCoy over SMB

      Brown and any of those interior OL from 2019 would allow to shed the $24M invested in Smith and Jensen

    • FireLicht2020

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      Post count: 6227

      Licht has no game plan… but what I’ve learned is that every blind squirrel finds a nut.

      Can you imagine looking at MJ Stewart’s game tape, then his combine, and saying to yourself “we gotta reach and grab him before someone else does!”

      Licht doesn’t know what he’s doing, he’s just had so many premium picks over so many years that a few were bound to hit or fall in his lap.

    • Hockey Duckie

      Participant
      Post count: 1485

      Another factor to draft capital is the quality of said capital.

      == 2016 ==
      In 2016, Licht sat on his hands at the top of the 2nd round and selected DE Noah Spence at 39th overall. Casual fans will see DE next to Spence, but not realize he’s actually an OLB. Why is this distinction important? Because our defense at that time was a 4-3 defense. Our starting DE’s in 2016 were Ayers (6’3 and 275 lbs) and Gholston (6’6 and 281 lbs). Spence comes in at 6’2 and 251 lbs. Spence’s body is not apt for a traditional 4-3 DE, which is why his shoulder had separated often.

      Spence was an abysmal selection because he is the wrong fit for this defense. Knowing now that Licht was willing to trade up with the Aguayo selection, it begs to query why didn’t the Bucs try moving up higher for a true 4-3 DE in Emmanuel Ogbah? Or we could have traded up for DT Chris Jones, because Mike Smith likes behemoth DT’s as Jones was 6’6 and 310 lbs when drafted.

      This is egregious because Licht wanted a kicker in the 2nd round.

      Now, even if we stuck with Spence at 39th, the Bucs did have bad news before the draft. LG JR Sweezy was having back problems due to a recent back surgery. That was an obvious red flag. Licht gambled that Sweezy would recover. If Licht was willing to trade up for K Aguayo at 59th overall, then he could have mustered to move up a few more spots to grab C/G Cody Whitehair.

      The hubris of Licht is amazing.

      == 2018 ==
      Still staying with the “on-ball” theme, we can flash forward to 2018. After signing C Jensen, moving Marpet from C to LG, and knowing Licht would release G Sweezy, Licht waiting until the bottom of the 3rd round to draft a RG in Cappa. Why?

      When the Bucs missed on LG Nelson by one draft selection spot (Nelson went 6th overall), Licht traded down from 7th to 12th and picked up two second round draft picks in 53rd and 56th. We were all sent to nab Nelson at 7th overall because it was a necessity. With a total of three second round draft picks, Tampa can afford to move up into the bottom of the 1st (NE owned the 31st pick) or top of the 2nd round to nab a guard such as Will Hernandez or Braden Smith. Again, Licht sat on his hands and missed out on all the OG prospects. This was a year where eight OL’s were projected to go into the first round.

      I would have been willing to trade RB Rojo (38th) and RG Cappa (102nd/4th rd and 180th/6th rd) to trade up for Hernandez or Smith. Our offense was wasted in 2018 once opposing defenses noticed how weak Jensen/Benenoch combo was. Rojo and Cappa red-shirted 2018 season. That’s a significant waste of a year and I think I’m the only one who sees it that way – a waste of a year by not addressing the starting RG position appropriately. If we were all set to nab Nelson at 6th overall, then why didn’t we trade up for an OG at the bottom of the 1st rd or top of the 2nd rd? This is baffling! I don’t think many had Cappa rated higher than the 6th round. Rojo was a run only RB in college and Licht drafted a run-only RB for a vertical offense that needed a RB that can pass block and pass catch. Rojo and Cappa were projects and it took them three years to start producing at average or above average play.

      Now, compound that with Licht selecting CB MJ Stewart over CB Davis and it’s a head scratcher. To add more injury to insult, Licht traded the 56th pick to 63rd. We passed up on CB Davis twice and had the possibility of losing him! We had VH3, Grimes was getting older, and veteran CB McClain holding down the fort in 2017. We really needed that outside CB more than slot CB- also, we had VH3 in the slot in 2017 b/c Smith demoted VH3 after seeing his 2016 season.

      Again, the hubris of Licht.

      == 2019 ==
      We had a failure of Jensen at center and no true starting RG going into the draft. We didn’t address the starting RG in FA, so it had to be addressed at the draft right? Also, RT Dotson’s contract would end after the 2019 season.

      After the draft, we discovered that the Bucs were set on drafting OT Cody Ford in the 2nd round before Buffalo traded ahead of the Bucs to draft him. Again, the team knew it wanted an OT (and start him at RG for a season) with Ford, but didn’t try drafting OT Risner right after Ford was selected. Instead, we draft another CB in SMB. Remember, we allocated two second round picks last draft in MJ Stewart and Davis. This is another head scratcher.

      We could have had Risner start at RG and had Cappa learn the center position in 2019. Then in 2020, we wouldn’t be desperate to draft OT Wirfs as we already had the heir apparent at RT with Risner. But that wouldn’t preclude us from drafting Wirfs either. We could have a right side of RG Risner-RT Wirfs or we could have LT Wirfs-RT Risner bookends. Now, we got lucky with Wirfs because Licht was desperate to trade up for an OT and we don’t know if Wirfs would have been that selection.

      It’s truly baffling how Licht lacks the competence to address the OLine as a priority until it’s dire. That’s what happened in the 2015 NFL draft b/c Licht’s FA LT Collins bombed and Licht didn’t address the RG position in 2014.

    • TBChucky

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      Post count: 1436

      Good post as always @Nobody. Totally agree. Hopefully BA will nudge Licht’s hand during the 2021 draft to lean trench heavy.

    • buc_boi

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      Post count: 3320

      Thought you non-buc fans were told to take your agenda and shove it during our playoff run!

      In case you haters haven’t noticed, PLAYOFFS!

      Look at how hard nobody Is trying to convince people this team “isn’t built properly”…. which when translated means differently than his ideas.

      Clearly the team was built just fine, and the results of our playoff run just as clearly proved that.

      I look forward to your next negative topic, in spite of our successful season! only shows your true agenda, which doesn’t include enjoying the Bucs winning… only convincing people how your were right “all along”.

      Really surprised the true fans can’t see through dudes phony fan hood.

    • Hockey Duckie

      Participant
      Post count: 1485

      Look at how hard nobody Is trying to convince people this team “isn’t built properly”…. which when translated means differently than his ideas.

      We were a tie-breaker away from the playoffs in 2016. Make a mental note about that. It took four years to get a sniff of the playoffs and a significant part of that is the addition of a HOF QB in Tom Brady.

      What @Nobody is trying to share with this board is the lack of addressing the trenches has a significant factor to our delayed appearance into the playoffs.

      As I shared in detail of missed trench players in 2016 and 2018, the team could have gone to the playoffs in those season if addressed properly. Look at our 2020 third round draft pick. We selected seldom used RB Vaughn. Instead of drafting Vaughn, we could have used it on a trench person such as C Hennessy, DT Neville Gallimore, or C Cushenberry to be developing. Either center can take over at center and save the Bucs $10.

      Fans forget that the Bucs have a budget and if we’re overpaying for average, then how do you expect the Bucs to be continual playoff attendees without youth being developed on the trench to keep costs down?

    • TBChucky

      Participant
      Post count: 1436

      Well said @HockeyDuckie. It’s always good to have an influx of young talent, especially up front on both sides. I’m always down with building up the trenches. Especially early rounds. I was super happy when Vea and Wirfs were selected in the first round.

    • SunnyD

      Participant
      Post count: 662

      Assault!!!

      Jk

      Good post.

      However, I do think this issue needs to be put into context. I don’t think drafting a starting caliber player at a non-premium (often off-ball) position is equatable to a failure. While he has not maximized the draft capital he has had available to him, I think the draft successes Licht has had prop him up as a Top 16 NFL GM. There are and have been too many GMs in the NFL that can’t even routinely draft NFL talent even when they have robust draft capital available to them. I didn’t mean to imply Licht is the best GM in the NFL or even an elite one but he certainly isn’t a terrible one. We have all experienced truly terrible GMs that can’t even put together a competitive roster and I can’t sit here while playing around with the playoff simulator for the first time in a decade and believe what Licht has done with this team justifies a one way ticket out of town.

      (Maybe you don’t either but I know a lot of people on this forum feel that way)

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3234

      Thought you non-buc fans were told to take your agenda and shove it during our playoff run!

      In case you haters haven’t noticed, PLAYOFFS!

      Look at how hard nobody Is trying to convince people this team “isn’t built properly”…. which when translated means differently than his ideas.

      Clearly the team was built just fine, and the results of our playoff run just as clearly proved that.

      I look forward to your next negative topic, in spite of our successful season! only shows your true agenda, which doesn’t include enjoying the Bucs winning… only convincing people how your were right “all along”.

      Really surprised the true fans can’t see through dudes phony fan hood.

      In two and half weeks when it’s 34-7 GB in the middle of the 3rd qtr you’ll finally understand.

    • buc_boi

      Participant
      Post count: 3320

      We were a tie-breaker away from the playoffs in 2016. Make a mental note about that. It took four years to get a sniff of the playoffs and a significant part of that is the addition of a HOF QB in Tom Brady.

      What @Nobody is trying to share with this board is the lack of addressing the trenches has a significant factor to our delayed appearance into the playoffs.

      So, nobody’s intentions aside. I couldn’t disagree more that it was the general managers lack of attention for our trenches that has prevented us from making the playoffs sooner. And frankly, boggles my mind that’s the conclusion one would come to after enduring five seasons of Jameis Winston.

      Each of the previous 2 seasons the Bucs Fielded a top-five offense, how are you gonna do that with no running game and Swiss cheese at the quarterback position?

      Point being, and I hope you’d agree a top 5 offense is good enough to make the playoffs, right?

      Likewise,
      2 seasons ago we acquired JPP from the giants who had double digit sacks that year, couple that with our top 5 offense and that’s clearly enough to make the playoffs that year, agree?

      Now go to last year, we pickup Shaq Barret who led the league in sacks. now match that with our top 5 offense and we were good enough to make the playoffs that year as well.

      I mean these results should speak for themselves, shouldn’t they?

      The reason we haven’t been to the playoffs sooner, and clearly it’s the elephant in the room, is jameis Winston… with his unavailability 2 seasons ago, to his 35 turnovers last year, both season demonstrating a clear unwillingness to be coached by different coaches.

      Isn’t it Interesting how such a simple conclusion to the answer was missed by such an informed opinion.

      • Hockey Duckie

        Participant
        Post count: 1485

        Each of the previous 2 seasons the Bucs Fielded a top-five offense, how are you gonna do that with no running game and Swiss cheese at the quarterback position?

        2018

          Rush production: 95.2 yds/g (29th overall)
          Points production: 24.8 pts/g (12th overall)
          Points by offense (TDs only): 47 tds
          FBO Oline, run block: 31st
          FBO OLine, pass block: 15th

        2019

          Rush production: 95.1 yds/g (24th overall)
          Points production: 28.6 pts/g (4th overall)
          Points by offense (TDs only): 48 tds
          FBO Oline, run block: 23rd
          FBO OLine, pass block: 22nd

        Huh… are you sure you have the correct receipts of a top-5 offense? Also, I did help you out to identify offensive TD productions. By identifying this, you can see there are other factors that prop up the point production in 2019. What other factors? 4 more def TDs, 7 more FGs, and 4 more 2-pt conversions.

        Now, look at that run production. We ran better under Koetter with no starting RG than we did with Arians with a better OLine group.

        Also, let’s look at 2018 history. We started off hot with Fitzmagic, almost beating three consecutive 2017 division winners. But the league was able to expose C Jensen and RG Benenoch. Once opposing teams knew this, then it didn’t matter who we put at QB because they all saw ghosts. We couldn’t recover nor improve in 2018 like we could in 2020 – thank goodness for Brady to fix it! Imagine if we had drafted either OG Hernandez or Smith in the 2018 draft to be a starting OG?! 3rd round OG Cappa couldn’t beat out Benenoch in 2018, and Benenoch couldn’t beat out a turnstile!

        If Fitzmagic had a great OL grouping, then we’d be on our way to a playoff spot despite a porous defense. Or did you forget Fitzmagic started in 2018?

        When Winston won the natty for FSU, FSU had a top ranked run game and defense. The following year, FSU had a mediocre run game and no defense. FSU got exposed in the Rose Bowl as it was only Winston carrying the torch.

        I bring this up because Tampa had no run game since 2015, since we lost LG Mankins to retirement. Although Tampa ranked 24th overall in rushing for 2019, that production was worse than 2018, which ranked 29th overall.

        The best way to tame Winston is to take the ball away from Winston via the run game. Under Arians, though, he wanted Winston to throw the ball and take the risk. When Brady came, he forced Arians to adapt to Brady in adding intermediate routes that cross the middle of the field. Brady gets rid of the ball faster or throws the ball away faster, which reduces turnovers and sacks. That makes our Oline look better than it should.

        We got lucky with Brady. How about we actually solidify the trenches so another QB can thrive whose name isn’t Brady? Remember, when Brady sees ghosts, he looked just as lost as Winston and Fitz did in 2018. Can you imagine how much better this offense could be with a better OLine grouping?

        See, what I’m trying to share with you is called high standards. For several years, I’ve looked at playoff teams and see where they ranked in their OLine play. Usually, they have either great run blocking or pass blocking or both. In 2018 and 2019, we weren’t top-10 in run or pass blocking.

        Now, for the trench. In 2019, sure we got a lot of sacks, but it’s volume sacks. We weren’t efficient at bringing down the QB with our opportunities. That’s what the FBO stats implies. And because we couldn’t finish, it exposed our young secondary. Thank goodness we landed S AWJ in the draft to help improve our secondary play. But the loss of DT Vea shows how much more dominant we were with Vea against the run as we never gave up a run of 10 yards or more this season when Vea was in the lineup.

        If you want to be educated some more, then feel free to respond, provided you actually read and comprehend what is written.

    • buc_boi

      Participant
      Post count: 3320

      In two and half weeks when it’s 34-7 GB in the middle of the 3rd qtr you’ll finally understand

      This is where our thought processes differ greatly, IF this is were to actually happen than it would mean we not only made the playoffs, but we also won our wildcard game… what part of making to the divisional round of the playoffs scream “unsuccessful season” after the 20 years since it happened last, to you?

      This is what makes me think that some of you people will accept victory only if it’s in your own warped vision. If not you’ll refuse delivery of the good news.

      Btw, just be happy it’s not that saints, like the rest of us.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      This is dumb that we’re doing this.

      I’m happy that we made the playoffs.

      I think we can win the whole damn thing.

      Back to the interesting analysis (even if it disagrees with my thoughts; good post @SunnyD ).

    • Detrimental

      Participant
      Post count: 1589

      Tre’davious White should of been the pick over OJ Howard. TJ Watt was available too. Bucs need to invest and pick players at premium positions. We’ve wasted second round picks on Kicker , first on a TE and a top 5 pick on a MLB. Not ideal to build a winning franchise

    • SunnyD

      Participant
      Post count: 662

      Am I crazy for wanting the Saints in the divisional round over the Packers?

    • JC5100

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      Post count: 3234

      QUO

      I don’t care that they’re going to crawl into the divisional round by beating a ton of terrible teams, including the NFC East winner. Aside from one game vs the Packers that has proven to be aberration, this team has been a dud all year.

    • JC5100

      Participant
      Post count: 3234

      This is dumb that we’re doing this.

      I’m happy that we made the playoffs.

      I think we can win the whole damn thing.

      Back to the interesting analysis (even if it disagrees with my thoughts; good post @SunnyD ).

      I’d like to hear why you think this team has a chance to even win the 2nd round.

      1-5 vs playoff-ish teams, needed 4th qtr comebacks vs Chargers, Giants and Falcons. Got a gift vs the Vikings with all the missed kicks and pass interference on Hail Mary.

      There’s a serious ass whooping coming from the Packers on the horizon.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      This is dumb that we’re doing this.

      I’m happy that we made the playoffs.

      I think we can win the whole damn thing.

      Back to the interesting analysis (even if it disagrees with my thoughts; good post @SunnyD ).

      I’d like to hear why you think this team has a chance to even win the 2nd round.

      1-5 vs playoff-ish teams, needed 4th qtr comebacks vs Chargers, Giants and Falcons. Got a gift vs the Vikings with all the missed kicks and pass interference on Hail Mary.

      There’s a serious ass whooping coming from the Packers on the horizon.

      The modern NFL has transitioned to become predominantly a matchup driven league.

      There are two teams in all of the playoffs (both Conferences) that we matchup poorly against and that is because (a) they can consistently get pressure with 4, (b) their primary coverage is 2 Man Under, and (c) they have 3 to 4 solid coverage players on the backend (including both Safeties). That is New Orleans and LA.

      That (a) – (c) is absolutely kryptonite for the Air Coryell offense that Arians runs and its exacerbated by Leftwich’s willingness to throw away 1st down so often.

      HOWEVER…if we actually play Press Man (2 Man Under or Man Free w/ a Hole to help on Kamara) and let White Green Dog to keep him out of coverage…I have all the faith in the world we can stay attached to NO until late in the 4th. Same thing with the Rams.

      Tom Brady is the equalizer here. Its not Licht or Arians or Leftwich. Brady has changed this team’s prospects. Sub run-of-the-mill QBing for this team and we’re 7 wins.

      As far as GB goes…they don’t scare me nearly as much as the other two. Alexander is the best Cover CB in the NFL right now and they have a few other players on the backend. But holistically, they don’t match up great against us and they’re not a great Pass D (DVOA middle of the pack). They are a Cover 3 Zone team and they don’t have a great pressure unit (Smith’s Pressure Rate is not great because teams can pay a lot of attention to him and not be terrified of the rest of that group.

      Us scoring points on them is not a fluke. We should absolutely do the same thing on them again. We can and should stay attached to them.

      And the reality is, in this Covid environment, all of the advantages that would come with Home Field in the playoffs are pretty close to gone (outside of the travel…which is rather piddly).

      The only questions for me are:

      1) Will Leftwich stay away from wasting 1st downs?

      2) Will we run a lot more play-action and attack the intermediate with horizontal concepts?

      We did (1) and (2) 2nd half of the Falcons game. If we do those two things, Brady will keep this offense attached on the scoreboard.

      3) Will Bowles STOP getting cute and trying to play 4D Chess in the 1st half of games. Just DO WHAT WE DO WELL. Nearly every game he tries to massively break tendency in the 1st half and show new wrinkles and new disguises and take guys away from their strengths. 2nd half? He goes back to what we do well.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      To your 5th point, imagine this

      2018- Orlando Brown over MJ Stewart
      2019- Josh Allen over Devin White (This LB/DT hybrid Levon Kirkland role has another 2 weeks before its exposed)
      2019- Risner, Jenkins or McCoy over SMB

      Brown and any of those interior OL from 2019 would allow to shed the $24M invested in Smith and Jensen

      If we had Brown, Burns/Allen (I still would have taken Burns…his ceiling was the best of that class and the fact that he was good year 1 and is already reaching it is even more than I was expecting …he’s already an absolute dominator with nothing around him and still a relatively raw rush suite at 22.5 years…Allen’s Rookie year was absolutely excellent, but I don’t see his ceiling being much more than that – which is excellent. Meanwhile, Burns’ ceiling is top 3 Edge in the NFL), any of those 3 iOL and we would be positioned to be a Super Bowl favorite for the next several years.

      That is just a massive improvement in Pass Protection, the Run Game, and Pass Rush rotation, while saving a ton of money to ensure we can lock up our own talent.

    • dexmonkey

      Participant
      Post count: 1912

      We were a tie-breaker away from the playoffs in 2016. Make a mental note about that. It took four years to get a sniff of the playoffs and a significant part of that is the addition of a HOF QB in Tom Brady.

      What @Nobody is trying to share with this board is the lack of addressing the trenches has a significant factor to our delayed appearance into the playoffs.

      So, nobody’s intentions aside. I couldn’t disagree more that it was the general managers lack of attention for our trenches that has prevented us from making the playoffs sooner. And frankly, boggles my mind that’s the conclusion one would come to after enduring five seasons of Jameis Winston.

      Each of the previous 2 seasons the Bucs Fielded a top-five offense, how are you gonna do that with no running game and Swiss cheese at the quarterback position?

      Point being, and I hope you’d agree a top 5 offense is good enough to make the playoffs, right?

      Likewise,
      2 seasons ago we acquired JPP from the giants who had double digit sacks that year, couple that with our top 5 offense and that’s clearly enough to make the playoffs that year, agree?

      Now go to last year, we pickup Shaq Barret who led the league in sacks. now match that with our top 5 offense and we were good enough to make the playoffs that year as well.

      I mean these results should speak for themselves, shouldn’t they?

      The reason we haven’t been to the playoffs sooner, and clearly it’s the elephant in the room, is jameis Winston… with his unavailability 2 seasons ago, to his 35 turnovers last year, both season demonstrating a clear unwillingness to be coached by different coaches.

      Isn’t it Interesting how such a simple conclusion to the answer was missed by such an informed opinion.

      we get it. you dont like Winston. hes the cause of all world issues, COVID 19, and why the Bucs have missed the playoffs for 13 years. all by himself. hes gone and he cant hurt you anymore. shut the fuck up about him and stop bringing him up in every thread you jump into. the shit gets as old as theKnees stupid ass schtick

      if you want to stick your head in the sand and think this team hasnt had deficiencies in drafting then go right ahead but Nobody and Hockie have provided plenty of legit reasoning and examples of failures to build the team

      we have consistently made weird/bad picks in the 1st 3 rounds and ignored pressing needs over the past 6-7 seasons. Winston’s TOs didnt help last season but they also werent the only reason we missed the playoffs. Bowles defense and Matt Gay lost us the Giants game and Matt Gay’s inability to make a single field goal lost us the Falcons game. win those two layups and we would have been in more than likely. thats with 35 TOs from the QB (would have been 34 because we never go to OT against ATL)

      you can also argue that not having a legitimate backup QB cost us because Winston’s fucked up thumb was clearly an issue against Houston as he had no control on the ball whatsoever. he shouldnt have been in the game and if we had a solid IOL with the ability to runblock we probably could have game managed our way to a win there. Licht never did much to acquire and develop a young backup QB to push Winston over than keep Ryan Griffin around which was dumb as hell

    • dexmonkey

      Participant
      Post count: 1912

      To your 5th point, imagine this

      2018- Orlando Brown over MJ Stewart
      2019- Josh Allen over Devin White (This LB/DT hybrid Levon Kirkland role has another 2 weeks before its exposed)
      2019- Risner, Jenkins or McCoy over SMB

      Brown and any of those interior OL from 2019 would allow to shed the $24M invested in Smith and Jensen

      If we had Brown, Burns/Allen (I still would have taken Burns…his ceiling was the best of that class and the fact that he was good year 1 and is already reaching it is even more than I was expecting …he’s already an absolute dominator with nothing around him and still a relatively raw rush suite at 22.5 years…Allen’s Rookie year was absolutely excellent, but I don’t see his ceiling being much more than that – which is excellent. Meanwhile, Burns’ ceiling is top 3 Edge in the NFL), any of those 3 iOL and we would be positioned to be a Super Bowl favorite for the next several years.

      That is just a massive improvement in Pass Protection, the Run Game, and Pass Rush rotation, while saving a ton of money to ensure we can lock up our own talent.

      i cant imagine having added Burns to our passrush group or even Allen. we’d have a fairly lethal defense at this point

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6227

      Stop moving the goalpost, boi.

      You can be critical of a drafting philosophy AND root for this team to succeed AND think we have a shot at winning it all.

      I’ve praised Licht when applicable, and raged on him as well… he’s a bottom half of the league GM based on his body of work.

      Had we not convinced Brady to come here, my gut tells me that he would have paid Winston…and we’d be in the same position again.

      In short, Licht has done some positive things… it isn’t all negative. But the goal is to win a championship every year (as Arians said)… and it took him 7 years with a blank checkbook and premium draft capital + a hail mary is Brady to make the wild card (it another year where our rivals demolished us).

      So it isn’t black and white… this thread is examining his draft philosophy (or lack thereof) not whether we are true Bucs fans by examining our holes.

      Imagine me saying you aren’t a true Bucs fan because you said Winston was bad… pretty dumb, eh?

    • seekpar

      Participant
      Post count: 1019

      I think the point everyone is trying to make is the best organizations and most successful teams in the NFL build their OLs and DLs through the draft and by supplementing here and there through FA. This is something Licht has failed to do on a consistent basis. When you waste premium draft capital on DB busts, players that don’t fit the team’s schemes, and a 2nd round kicker of all things, you leave yourself wide open to criticism. He’s not in the top 50% of GMs as far as I’m concerned. Recent success> Yes. Overall success over the entire span of his tenure? A resounding no.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6227

      Not just busts… I can live with Spence as a bust. I can even live with Howard as a bust…

      But he REACHES on these players.

      Aguayo – reach
      Stewart – reach
      J Evans – reach
      SMB – reach

      The list goes on… you aren’t smarter than the league, Licht

    • TBChucky

      Participant
      Post count: 1436

      Stock the trenches in ‘21!!

    • seekpar

      Participant
      Post count: 1019

      Arians probably has enough influence in order to get what he wants. Let’s hope it’s some help on the lines.

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