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    • SackedBySapp

      Participant
      Post count: 155

      I look at this video…….and the first thing I think is that it’s the fault of his parents for teaching him to openly challenge authority. He did absolutely everything wrong. All he had to do was show his identificationYou decide....The family of a Michigan teen who flashed a car’s brights at a sheriff sergeant’s SUV and wound up dead filed a wrongful death lawsuit Wednesday.A complaint on behalf of slain 17-year-old Deven Guilford accuses Eaton County Sheriff's Sgt. Jonathan Frost of unconstitutional violations of privacy and excessive force in a Feb. 28 traffic stop in the rural central Michigan county outside Lansing.Guilford flashed the headlights of the car he was driving at the sheriff department’s new SUV as Frost drove it the opposite way on State Highway 43, according to the complaint. The Ford Explorer had “improperly bright or misaimed headlights” and Frost had stopped two other drivers for flashing their lights at him that night, the lawsuit said.The officer and the unarmed teen can be seen arguing over whether Frost had his brights on in bodycam videothat was later released.the cop:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lRWoThpv8s

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1782

      The kid is a moron that tried to copy other people on youtube.  Stop acting shady and give your license and registration to the cop so both can move on with their day.

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      The kid is a moron that tried to copy other people on youtube.  Stop acting shady and give your license and registration to the cop so both can move on with their day.

      the punk kid is being dragged out of his car by the cop.......and while resisting arrest.......he's trying to put his phone in his face and describe his perceived injustices to the camera so he can make a great youtube video and look hip to his pals..... apparently when the cop started putting on the cuts......he swung at the cop......at that point....anyone can expect to die 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1419

      no no no no, this is just how f*cking bent the public/law enforcement relationship is in the year 2015the baseline has shifted, and we're here debating something that should NEVER have happened.Seriously, what the hell happened to "protect and serve"Seriously;"protect"and"serve"marinade on those two words.THAT is the role of police in any civilized democratic nation.NOT "hassle and coerce"NOT "instigate and escalate"PROTECTand SERVEIf you listen to the audio, at around 3:20 the cop tells the driver that he (the cop) is driving a new car, HIS NEW COP CAR'S LIGHTS ARE EXTRA BRIGHT, AND THEREFORE HAS ALREADY BEEN FLASHED BY MULTIPLE DRIVERS DURING THAT NIGHT (and pulled them over too... f*cking asshole).  DON'T YOU THINK, if your objective was ANYTHING OTHER than to harass and extort people for budgetary / career recognition reasons, that the f*cking cop, after being flashed 2-3 times in the night, the next time it happens he just says to himself "jeez, my lights must be pretty bright, clearly people aren't just flashing me for no reason, I'm no longer going to pursue any drivers that flash me because clearly my new cars' lights are extraordinarily bright"BUT NO this f*cking guy, knowing FULL WELL THAT HE'S OUT THERE WITH BRIGHT LIGHTS, GOES OUT OF HIS WAY TO PULL OVER EVERY F*CKING CITIZEN THAT FLASHES HIM.FOR WHAT?Why the f*ck would this guy possibly do that?  Because he wants to personally appologize to each person he's been a nuisance to on the road that night?NO, he's just going along with his plausible deniability trap that he's got going on, giving him a reason to pull over many more people that night than he would have otherwise.Tell me, how the f*ck is the cop, who knows he's got a car with bright lights, how is he "protecting" anybody by doing that.Has there been a serious rise in problematic night flashing from cars?  Has the momentary increase of incoming light been shown to markedly affect somebody else's life in a negative way?Was he pulling the driver over to appologize and simply inform the drive that "sorry, I know, my lights are bright, didn't mean to trick you, but I appreciate you at least looking out for me and limit my nuisance to any further drivers.  It's just the way the new car is, hopefully it'll go down over time.  Have a nice night!"NOHe's a f*cking instigating scum bag piece of sh*t that created a complete f*cking mess of a situation, and somebody is dead for it.  I don't give a damn how "bratty" the kid's demeanor was, he's a f*cking citizen in this country who was being unnecessarily harassed by just another coward who was hiding behind the shield.I get acting accordingly.  I get respecting authority.  I do it.  But the f*cking temperature in the pot has been rising for some time now, and this kind of sh*t is so far off the normal baseline that it's sick that we're at this point.  And if you want to go about defending the police officer in this case.  Take a moment and reflect on history and power and authority, and take a good clean, objective look at the state of things, and ask yourself if this police officer was acting in the best interest of society when he decided in that moment to do a U-turn and pull over ANOTHER vehicle that had mistaken his lights for brights that night.  He's a scum bag piece of sh*t and that kid is dead.  I don't give a f*ck about the cops bloody face.  The kid is DEAD.  Never to see his mother or father again, them never to see him again.  REMOVED FROM THE F*CKING PLANET.Travesty of Justice?  What f*cking justice? 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2862

      Bingo. That cop knew he was blinding other drivers but instead of getting it looked at he decided to use it as a tool to provoke and menace the general public. Now that he's killed the kid he'll screw the general public again by handing them a bill for his wanton negligence.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      he swung at the cop......at that point....anyone can expect to die

      Wait wait wait....let me skip to this last bit.Expect to die? For throwing a punch? As patriotic and Constitutional as conservatives pretend to be, they sure seem to care very little about the 4th, 5th, and 8th amendments when it comes to law enforcement. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      no no no no, this is just how f*cking bent the public/law enforcement relationship is in the year 2015the baseline has shifted, and we're here debating something that should NEVER have happened.Seriously, what the hell happened to "protect and serve"Seriously;"protect"and"serve"marinade on those two words.THAT is the role of police in any civilized democratic nation.NOT "hassle and coerce"NOT "instigate and escalate"PROTECTand SERVEIf you listen to the audio, at around 3:20 the cop tells the driver that he (the cop) is driving a new car, HIS NEW COP CAR'S LIGHTS ARE EXTRA BRIGHT, AND THEREFORE HAS ALREADY BEEN FLASHED BY MULTIPLE DRIVERS DURING THAT NIGHT (and pulled them over too... f*cking asshole).  DON'T YOU THINK, if your objective was ANYTHING OTHER than to harass and extort people for budgetary / career recognition reasons, that the f*cking cop, after being flashed 2-3 times in the night, the next time it happens he just says to himself "jeez, my lights must be pretty bright, clearly people aren't just flashing me for no reason, I'm no longer going to pursue any drivers that flash me because clearly my new cars' lights are extraordinarily bright"BUT NO this f*cking guy, knowing FULL WELL THAT HE'S OUT THERE WITH BRIGHT LIGHTS, GOES OUT OF HIS WAY TO PULL OVER EVERY F*CKING CITIZEN THAT FLASHES HIM.FOR WHAT?Why the f*ck would this guy possibly do that?  Because he wants to personally appologize to each person he's been a nuisance to on the road that night?NO, he's just going along with his plausible deniability trap that he's got going on, giving him a reason to pull over many more people that night than he would have otherwise.Tell me, how the f*ck is the cop, who knows he's got a car with bright lights, how is he "protecting" anybody by doing that.Has there been a serious rise in problematic night flashing from cars?  Has the momentary increase of incoming light been shown to markedly affect somebody else's life in a negative way?Was he pulling the driver over to appologize and simply inform the drive that "sorry, I know, my lights are bright, didn't mean to trick you, but I appreciate you at least looking out for me and limit my nuisance to any further drivers.  It's just the way the new car is, hopefully it'll go down over time.  Have a nice night!"NOHe's a f*cking instigating scum bag piece of sh*t that created a complete f*cking mess of a situation, and somebody is dead for it.  I don't give a damn how "bratty" the kid's demeanor was, he's a f*cking citizen in this country who was being unnecessarily harassed by just another coward who was hiding behind the shield.I get acting accordingly.  I get respecting authority.  I do it.  But the f*cking temperature in the pot has been rising for some time now, and this kind of sh*t is so far off the normal baseline that it's sick that we're at this point.  And if you want to go about defending the police officer in this case.  Take a moment and reflect on history and power and authority, and take a good clean, objective look at the state of things, and ask yourself if this police officer was acting in the best interest of society when he decided in that moment to do a U-turn and pull over ANOTHER vehicle that had mistaken his lights for brights that night.  He's a scum bag piece of sh*t and that kid is dead.  I don't give a f*ck about the cops bloody face.  The kid is DEAD.  Never to see his mother or father again, them never to see him again.  REMOVED FROM THE F*CKING PLANET.Travesty of Justice?  What f*cking justice?

      Yup. Sad part is, the cop will just get a slap on the wrist. Then the family will sue, get awarded millions, which will come from the taxpayers. This was just a thug with a badge. Sure, it's a punk kid, but we should expect a hell of a lot more from someone who is paid by citizens to protect and serve the public. It's a shame that the "black lives matter" movement has made people dig deep in taking sides. You now have a large portion of the country who looks at law enforcement as infallible and preaches "comply comply comply or you should die". What I find hilarious are the massive contradictions. Most of the people who support law enforcement no matter what they do, identify themselves as conservatives. They call themselves pro-life, but don't give two sh*ts about babies once they exit the womb. Saying that this kid or Tamir Rice or any other 100s of unarmed citizens of all colors over the past few years...saying that they deserved to die for disobeying or not instantly complying is not "pro-life". also, conservatives for the past 6 years have been so afraid that their 2nd amendment rights will be infringed upon, and so they say we have to stand and fight for it. Meanwhile, they ignore that the 4th, 5th, and 8th amendments are ACTUALLY being violated on a daily basis in this country. Hilarious. I used to look at myself as right leaning. Not anymore. The political landscape has shifted and the right has become radicalized during the Obama years.

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      the three of you are so beyond repair……….that all I can do is wish none of you are parents…if so…. if these are the life lessons you teach them…….expect the same could happen to them.when a cop rides up on anyone......they put their life in their hands.  when the driver refuses to show ID...the cop has no idea what or whom he is dealing with.....and when a cop says "you are under arrest" and you fight that......he has every reason to be on heightened alert..... (gun ready).... and when you fight a cop while he is trying to arrest you.... you place your own life in your hands.  that's a fact, jack....and this vid supports my knowledge base.I get that you three are liberals........and I get that liberals share a common DNA strain in that all of you feel like you are victims........and on top of that........you tend to deal on emotions and not facts..... but I am here to tell you.....if you are teaching your kids to resist arrest.... it's on you.

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Yup. Sad part is, the cop will just get a slap on the wrist.

      he got more than that already.....looks to me like his head wounds are not even an afterthought from you. do you think the cop punched himself? aside from beating on the cop while under arrest....the kid may have been going for the cops gun....

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Bingo. That cop knew he was blinding other drivers but instead of getting it looked at he decided to use it as a tool to provoke and menace the general public.

      this comment is so stupid that I actually feel like this is you acting a part here. it's bad enough that you are a bigot because of your anti semetic comments you make here constantly....this one thought takes the cake.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1419

      Chase, you nailed it, ESPECIALLY with the second half of your post, about the hypocrisy of conservative views in regards to their supposed “pro-life” views and their focus on 2nd amendment rights at the dispense of the ones that are actually being violated.  Spot. On. It's alright sackedbysapp, I get that your calcified views were formed some 30-40 years ago and that you're incapable of correctly assessing the modern landscape; it happens it most men as they grow old.  However, just remember, it was YOUR generation that allowed the pot temperature to rise.  Its YOUR generation that are in administrative positions these days.  Its YOUR generation that trained the police officers to act this way.  Its YOUR generation that led us into this quagmire that now exists.  Pretty sh*t job living up to "the greatest" that came before you.  I'll be sure to teach my son to have a healthy distrust of power abusing authority figures instead of blowing them like you live in some john wayne western like you guys do

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1419

      Bingo. That cop knew he was blinding other drivers but instead of getting it looked at he decided to use it as a tool to provoke and menace the general public.

      this comment is so stupid that I actually feel like this is you acting a part here. it's bad enough that you are a bigot because of your anti semetic comments you make here constantly....this one thought takes the cake.

      "takes the cake"?You think a comment about a police officer baiting people into traffic stops with bright lights is worse than anti-semitic comments? huh?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2862

      Well he did say his comment was stupid, so I think we can all agree on that.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2862

      I have respect for the officers that do their job honestly day in and day out but this pushed me over the top. This was right after filming a traffic stop and got a $171 ticket for failure to dim headlights then on the ticket he marks it as a personal observation even though I know for a fact my lights were dim.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1BAjJ83Fo

      The motorist in the link above takes a different approach.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      the three of you are so beyond repair..........that all I can do is wish none of you are parents...if so.... if these are the life lessons you teach them.......expect the same could happen to them.when a cop rides up on anyone......they put their life in their hands.  when the driver refuses to show ID...the cop has no idea what or whom he is dealing with.....and when a cop says "you are under arrest" and you fight that......he has every reason to be on heightened alert..... (gun ready).... and when you fight a cop while he is trying to arrest you.... you place your own life in your hands.  that's a fact, jack....and this vid supports my knowledge base.I get that you three are liberals........and I get that liberals share a common DNA strain in that all of you feel like you are victims........and on top of that........you tend to deal on emotions and not facts..... but I am here to tell you.....if you are teaching your kids to resist arrest.... it's on you.

      The word liberal is subjective and means something different to everyone. I wouldn't consider myself a liberal, but love how the word is used to vilify and notate that "I'm good, and you're bad". Not one of us advocated for resisting arrest. None of us are advocating that we should always fight back against cops. That's a strawman. What we are saying is that resisting arrest, in quite a few cases, should not result in death. You're also reaching way up your ass with the "victim" BS. Yea, cops have a dangerous job...it doesn't crack the top 10 in dangerous jobs in this country...but it is dangerous nonetheless. I respect cops that are all about serving and protecting their communities. Most would probably fall under this category. However, there are also a good portion of power hungry and authoritative cops out there who take it way to far and abuse their power, and when they do abuse their power, they rarely are held accountable. The number of unarmed civilians killed by police is way too high, and cops routinely are able to hide behind the "I feared for my life" mantra.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      Chase, you nailed it, ESPECIALLY with the second half of your post, about the hypocrisy of conservative views in regards to their supposed "pro-life" views and their focus on 2nd amendment rights at the dispense of the ones that are actually being violated.  Spot. On.

      Going home for the holidays is quite the adventure. Most of my family identify as conservatives and they a encapsulated in the bubble. Liberal this...RINO that. They pretend to care about these precious babies in the womb and how godless libs just want to slay these children, but they don't care about the millions of children living in poverty..."God had a plan for those people, but their parents chose to be takers...who wants a third helping of turkey and dressing?". They think we should be able to get guns at the convenience store without any sort of background check, because tyranny is imminent. LaPierre and the NRA stated over and over and over again that Obama would abolish the 2nd amendment if he won(both in '08 and '12). The only two gun laws signed under Obama actually allow gun owners to carry in more places, not less. Chicago was always used as a poor example of a gun control area, but you can now carry in Chicago. It's funny how SBS tries to state that the other side is devoid of facts, then tries to sell his opinions as "facts, jack". The BOR is violated daily and citizens rights are constantly infringed upon. Why don't these fake patriots rise up against authoritative overreach. Maybe we could sell them that anyone with a badge is a sellout and is now an Obama crony....I mean they thought our own sons and daughters that went off to join the military were about to take over the Southwest with the Jade Helm 15 operation. Paranoia makes even the impossible, possible in the eyes of rubes.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Bingo. That cop knew he was blinding other drivers but instead of getting it looked at he decided to use it as a tool to provoke and menace the general public. Now that he's killed the kid he'll screw the general public again by handing them a bill for his wanton negligence.

      That doesn't make sense

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      no no no no, this is just how f*cking bent the public/law enforcement relationship is in the year 2015the baseline has shifted, and we're here debating something that should NEVER have happened.Seriously, what the hell happened to "protect and serve"Seriously;"protect"and"serve"marinade on those two words.THAT is the role of police in any civilized democratic nation.NOT "hassle and coerce"NOT "instigate and escalate"PROTECTand SERVEIf you listen to the audio, at around 3:20 the cop tells the driver that he (the cop) is driving a new car, HIS NEW COP CAR'S LIGHTS ARE EXTRA BRIGHT, AND THEREFORE HAS ALREADY BEEN FLASHED BY MULTIPLE DRIVERS DURING THAT NIGHT (and pulled them over too... f*cking asshole).  DON'T YOU THINK, if your objective was ANYTHING OTHER than to harass and extort people for budgetary / career recognition reasons, that the f*cking cop, after being flashed 2-3 times in the night, the next time it happens he just says to himself "jeez, my lights must be pretty bright, clearly people aren't just flashing me for no reason, I'm no longer going to pursue any drivers that flash me because clearly my new cars' lights are extraordinarily bright"BUT NO this f*cking guy, knowing FULL WELL THAT HE'S OUT THERE WITH BRIGHT LIGHTS, GOES OUT OF HIS WAY TO PULL OVER EVERY F*CKING CITIZEN THAT FLASHES HIM.FOR WHAT?Why the f*ck would this guy possibly do that?  Because he wants to personally appologize to each person he's been a nuisance to on the road that night?NO, he's just going along with his plausible deniability trap that he's got going on, giving him a reason to pull over many more people that night than he would have otherwise.Tell me, how the f*ck is the cop, who knows he's got a car with bright lights, how is he "protecting" anybody by doing that.Has there been a serious rise in problematic night flashing from cars?  Has the momentary increase of incoming light been shown to markedly affect somebody else's life in a negative way?Was he pulling the driver over to appologize and simply inform the drive that "sorry, I know, my lights are bright, didn't mean to trick you, but I appreciate you at least looking out for me and limit my nuisance to any further drivers.  It's just the way the new car is, hopefully it'll go down over time.  Have a nice night!"NOHe's a f*cking instigating scum bag piece of sh*t that created a complete f*cking mess of a situation, and somebody is dead for it.  I don't give a damn how "bratty" the kid's demeanor was, he's a f*cking citizen in this country who was being unnecessarily harassed by just another coward who was hiding behind the shield.I get acting accordingly.  I get respecting authority.  I do it.  But the f*cking temperature in the pot has been rising for some time now, and this kind of sh*t is so far off the normal baseline that it's sick that we're at this point.  And if you want to go about defending the police officer in this case.  Take a moment and reflect on history and power and authority, and take a good clean, objective look at the state of things, and ask yourself if this police officer was acting in the best interest of society when he decided in that moment to do a U-turn and pull over ANOTHER vehicle that had mistaken his lights for brights that night.  He's a scum bag piece of sh*t and that kid is dead.  I don't give a f*ck about the cops bloody face.  The kid is DEAD.  Never to see his mother or father again, them never to see him again.  REMOVED FROM THE F*CKING PLANET.Travesty of Justice?  What f*cking justice?

      Yup. Sad part is, the cop will just get a slap on the wrist. Then the family will sue, get awarded millions, which will come from the taxpayers. This was just a thug with a badge. Sure, it's a punk kid, but we should expect a hell of a lot more from someone who is paid by citizens to protect and serve the public. It's a shame that the "black lives matter" movement has made people dig deep in taking sides. You now have a large portion of the country who looks at law enforcement as infallible and preaches "comply comply comply or you should die". What I find hilarious are the massive contradictions. Most of the people who support law enforcement no matter what they do, identify themselves as conservatives. They call themselves pro-life, but don't give two sh*ts about babies once they exit the womb. Saying that this kid or Tamir Rice or any other 100s of unarmed citizens of all colors over the past few years...saying that they deserved to die for disobeying or not instantly complying is not "pro-life". also, conservatives for the past 6 years have been so afraid that their 2nd amendment rights will be infringed upon, and so they say we have to stand and fight for it. Meanwhile, they ignore that the 4th, 5th, and 8th amendments are ACTUALLY being violated on a daily basis in this country. Hilarious. I used to look at myself as right leaning. Not anymore. The political landscape has shifted and the right has become radicalized during the Obama years.

      That's a great post Chace. Everyone should be held to a higher standard, cops most of all, but also the conservatives you reference - those who blindly and selectively support causes seemingly without thinking for themselves.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      The officer commented that he was also recording.  He is fully cognizant of his vest cam.  This prideful, antagonistic way we see so many officers interact with the public appears endemic.  Once again, my opinion is an officer’s pride led to him escalating a situation with absolutely no danger to himself or others into a deadly confrontation.  He wasn’t going to be disrespected by some punk kid.  Manslaughter at an absolute minimum.  I would guess murder 2 could also be appropriate depending on other factors.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      That’s is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said,” give me your wallet,” would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered “no,” as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop … Because it’s a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid’s decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST … And certainly don’t fight with a cop because …. He’s got a gun

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1419

      That's is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said," give me your wallet," would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered "no," as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop ... Because it's a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid's decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST ... And certainly don't fight with a cop because .... He's got a gun

      Yeah, but dude, if you're getting stopped by a civilian with a gun, you can reasonably expect a violent outcome as the result of your refusal, because, by definition that person is a criminal (as of that moment).  By stopping you, the threat of violence is eminent from the beginning of the interaction.When you are being stopped by a police officer, who is supposed to be on the "safe" side of the law, you SHOULD NOT (obviously not the case in 2015) expect the police officer, who's function in society is to keep EVERY member of society safe, to harm you from the outset of your interaction with him or her (and to be exhaustive, if you're not showing any signs of aggression from the get out, he being a member of society himself, should not feel threatened in our given situation, and therefore the protection of his own safety should not be placed supreme over the motorist's safety).I understand your comparison, but it highlights perfectly the exact perversion of the system that creates these situations; that we, as members of this society, are required these days to have the same fearful approach in our interactions with police officers as we would with a criminal holding us at gun point.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      That's is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said," give me your wallet," would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered "no," as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop ... Because it's a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid's decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST ... And certainly don't fight with a cop because .... He's got a gun

      This is a solid analogy and sound advise imo.  Treat interaction with uniformed LEO as if an armed criminal was pointing a gun at you.  They are doing campus training for students on how to save your own life during a campus shooting.  Maybe it would be a good public service to provide seminars for our citizenry on surviving a traffic stop with law enforcement?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      That's is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said," give me your wallet," would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered "no," as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop ... Because it's a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid's decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST ... And certainly don't fight with a cop because .... He's got a gun

      Yeah, but dude, if you're getting stopped by a civilian with a gun, you can reasonably expect a violent outcome as the result of your refusal, because, by definition that person is a criminal (as of that moment).  By stopping you, the threat of violence is eminent from the beginning of the interaction.When you are being stopped by a police officer, who is supposed to be on the "safe" side of the law, you SHOULD NOT (obviously not the case in 2015) expect the police officer, who's function in society is to keep EVERY member of society safe, to harm you from the outset of your interaction with him or her (and to be exhaustive, if you're not showing any signs of aggression from the get out, he being a member of society himself, should not feel threatened in our given situation, and therefore the protection of his own safety should not be placed supreme over the motorist's safety).I understand your comparison, but it highlights perfectly the exact perversion of the system that creates these situations; that we, as members of this society, are required these days to have the same fearful approach in our interactions with police officers as we would with a criminal holding us at gun point.

      And you shouldn't expect a violent outcome of you fight with a cop???  Sweet Geezus, maybe you hit in the problem...This cop could've handled things much better BUT the person stopped made so many absurd decisions. It's like his goal was to be a YouTube sensation?  I mean, talk about winning the battle at the cost of the war. Yeah, so he got his point across that he disagreed about the headlights. Great. Congrats. Oops ...Voice your displeasure WHILE complying with simple requests. It's not that difficult. If you make a CHOICE to fight any person with a gun you are by definition putting your life on the line. Sad as hell because the guy is dead, but this might have been the dumbest thing I have seen in my lifeHEY, I want to show everyone on YouTube how bad cops can be ....oops

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      When I go home from work, I am going to drive the wrong way on the Interstate …just to prove the point that the DOT is badI am going to how swimming in the ocean at night, screw those damn lifeguards Start my house on fire just so I can fight some fireman And if I die, everyone should say I am a victim .... Yeah

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      When I go home from work, I am going to drive the wrong way on the Interstate ...just to prove the point that the DOT is badI am going to how swimming in the ocean at night, screw those damn lifeguards Start my house on fire just so I can fight some fireman And if I die, everyone should say I am a victim .... Yeah

      Another good post.  Because not immediately and docilely complying with ANY command given you by uniformed LEO is akin to driving the wrong way on the highway, swimming in dangerous waters, or intentionally setting your house ablaze while inside.  That is the reality of our situation.  I know I would much rather be bare ass naked on my belly singing the alphabet backwards than laid out cold on a slab.  Obey and live people.  It really is that simple.  Save your liberal "yeah but"'s for your lawyer after the fact.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      That's is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said," give me your wallet," would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered "no," as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop ... Because it's a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid's decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST ... And certainly don't fight with a cop because .... He's got a gun

      Yeah, but dude, if you're getting stopped by a civilian with a gun, you can reasonably expect a violent outcome as the result of your refusal, because, by definition that person is a criminal (as of that moment).  By stopping you, the threat of violence is eminent from the beginning of the interaction.When you are being stopped by a police officer, who is supposed to be on the "safe" side of the law, you SHOULD NOT (obviously not the case in 2015) expect the police officer, who's function in society is to keep EVERY member of society safe, to harm you from the outset of your interaction with him or her (and to be exhaustive, if you're not showing any signs of aggression from the get out, he being a member of society himself, should not feel threatened in our given situation, and therefore the protection of his own safety should not be placed supreme over the motorist's safety).I understand your comparison, but it highlights perfectly the exact perversion of the system that creates these situations; that we, as members of this society, are required these days to have the same fearful approach in our interactions with police officers as we would with a criminal holding us at gun point.

      And you shouldn't expect a violent outcome of you fight with a cop???  Sweet Geezus, maybe you hit in the problem...This cop could've handled things much better BUT the person stopped made so many absurd decisions. It's like his goal was to be a YouTube sensation?  I mean, talk about winning the battle at the cost of the war. Yeah, so he got his point across that he disagreed about the headlights. Great. Congrats. Oops ...Voice your displeasure WHILE complying with simple requests. It's not that difficult. If you make a CHOICE to fight any person with a gun you are by definition putting your life on the line. Sad as hell because the guy kid is dead, but this might have been the dumbest thing I have seen in my lifeHEY, I want to show everyone on YouTube how bad cops can be ....oops

      I am sure that is what you meant as you minimize and make fun of his death.I think taking the kid's life over what we saw was infinitely more stupid.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      That's is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said," give me your wallet," would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered "no," as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop ... Because it's a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid's decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST ... And certainly don't fight with a cop because .... He's got a gun

      Yeah, but dude, if you're getting stopped by a civilian with a gun, you can reasonably expect a violent outcome as the result of your refusal, because, by definition that person is a criminal (as of that moment).  By stopping you, the threat of violence is eminent from the beginning of the interaction.When you are being stopped by a police officer, who is supposed to be on the "safe" side of the law, you SHOULD NOT (obviously not the case in 2015) expect the police officer, who's function in society is to keep EVERY member of society safe, to harm you from the outset of your interaction with him or her (and to be exhaustive, if you're not showing any signs of aggression from the get out, he being a member of society himself, should not feel threatened in our given situation, and therefore the protection of his own safety should not be placed supreme over the motorist's safety).I understand your comparison, but it highlights perfectly the exact perversion of the system that creates these situations; that we, as members of this society, are required these days to have the same fearful approach in our interactions with police officers as we would with a criminal holding us at gun point.

      And you shouldn't expect a violent outcome of you fight with a cop???  Sweet Geezus, maybe you hit in the problem...This cop could've handled things much better BUT the person stopped made so many absurd decisions. It's like his goal was to be a YouTube sensation?  I mean, talk about winning the battle at the cost of the war. Yeah, so he got his point across that he disagreed about the headlights. Great. Congrats. Oops ...Voice your displeasure WHILE complying with simple requests. It's not that difficult. If you make a CHOICE to fight any person with a gun you are by definition putting your life on the line. Sad as hell because the guy kid is dead, but this might have been the dumbest thing I have seen in my lifeHEY, I want to show everyone on YouTube how bad cops can be ....oops

      I am sure that is what you meant as you minimize and make fun of his death.I think taking the kid's life over what we saw was infinitely more stupid.

      If you want to make a point that a cop is treating you unfairly .... You fight with him and pay with your life? (Hint: he's carrying a gun)Seems smart to you?There are good cops and bad cops just like there are good doctors and bad doctors or good priests and bad priests .... The difference is the cops have guns. Maybe choose another profession to out?By the way, why is it wrong to criticize the kid for being stupid? Because his stupidity got him killed? That happens every day, unfortunately, and not everyone that dies is a victim. The cops says on the video he pulled over 2 or 3 people before this guy. They all survived. What was the difference?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1151

      That's is an absolute tragedy, no doubt but think about this for a second: if a civilian WRONGFULLY stopped you as you were walking and with a gun in his hand said," give me your wallet," would you actually refuse at the risk of getting shot? If you answered "no," as any sane person should, then one reason for these types of events has to be because the stopped person feels empowered to challenge the cop ... Because it's a cop. That is dumber than sheet but how else do you explain this kid's decision making? Plead your case, tell the officer he is wrong, but do all of that WHILE COMPLYING WITH HIS REQUEST ... And certainly don't fight with a cop because .... He's got a gun

      Yeah, but dude, if you're getting stopped by a civilian with a gun, you can reasonably expect a violent outcome as the result of your refusal, because, by definition that person is a criminal (as of that moment).  By stopping you, the threat of violence is eminent from the beginning of the interaction.When you are being stopped by a police officer, who is supposed to be on the "safe" side of the law, you SHOULD NOT (obviously not the case in 2015) expect the police officer, who's function in society is to keep EVERY member of society safe, to harm you from the outset of your interaction with him or her (and to be exhaustive, if you're not showing any signs of aggression from the get out, he being a member of society himself, should not feel threatened in our given situation, and therefore the protection of his own safety should not be placed supreme over the motorist's safety).I understand your comparison, but it highlights perfectly the exact perversion of the system that creates these situations; that we, as members of this society, are required these days to have the same fearful approach in our interactions with police officers as we would with a criminal holding us at gun point.

      And you shouldn't expect a violent outcome of you fight with a cop???  Sweet Geezus, maybe you hit in the problem...This cop could've handled things much better BUT the person stopped made so many absurd decisions. It's like his goal was to be a YouTube sensation?  I mean, talk about winning the battle at the cost of the war. Yeah, so he got his point across that he disagreed about the headlights. Great. Congrats. Oops ...Voice your displeasure WHILE complying with simple requests. It's not that difficult. If you make a CHOICE to fight any person with a gun you are by definition putting your life on the line. Sad as hell because the guy kid is dead, but this might have been the dumbest thing I have seen in my lifeHEY, I want to show everyone on YouTube how bad cops can be ....oops

      I am sure that is what you meant as you minimize and make fun of his death.I think taking the kid's life over what we saw was infinitely more stupid.

      If you want to make a point that a cop is treating you unfairly .... You fight with him and pay with your life? (Hint: he's carrying a gun)Seems smart to you?There are good cops and bad cops just like there are good doctors and bad doctors or good priests and bad priests .... The difference is the cops have guns. Maybe choose another profession to out?By the way, why is it wrong to criticize the kid for being stupid? Because his stupidity got him killed? That happens every day, unfortunately, and not everyone that dies is a victim. The cops says on the video he pulled over 2 or 3 people before this guy. They all survived. What was the difference?

      ^^

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      If you get into a fist fight with a cop (after his taser has not stopped you) how in the world do you come out of that scenario as a winner when the cop has the gun? If you don’t knock the cop out immediately and you continue to fight with the cop …. Pretty good chance you’re going to get (censored) and killed. People fighting for their lives (and that is most likely what a cop would think when dealing with someone bold enough to fight) don’t take a single shot at someone’s leg hoping to slow the other person down. People who believe they are fighting for their lives (the taser wasn’t enough) fire their gun until the other person drops.

      From here the prosecutor says the two got into a fist fight. Slow motion shows Guilford punching the officer in the face. Autopsy reports show the Sgt fought back, rolling into the snow and knocking the lens off of his body camera.“Sgt. Frost reports that as Deven is hitting him he can feel blood coming to his mouth, he can feel the pain in his face and he believes that he may be losing consciousness,” said Doug Lloyd, Eaton County Prosecutor.Then in a matter of four seconds, Sgt. Frost fires seven shots, hitting Guilford in the chest, stomach, arm and head.Prosecutor Doug Lloyd says the shots were justified for self-defense with the non-lethal taser out of reach.“They did end up in the snow, off of the side and then Sgt. Frost had nothing else in his possession in order to defend himself,” said Prosecutor Lloyd.

      How about just saying "sorry, I don't have my license?The cop may be way out of bounds ... But he's got a gun! Pick another social injustice, there's plenty.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      How do we get to a place where law enforcement is held accountable more often?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      Some of you are shadowboxing.  I have yet to see someone say the kid acted appropriately.  We can’t keep letting men like that represent law enforcement.  There is and has been a culture developed that seems somewhat pervasive that allows this type of on duty behavior far too often.  That is the point.  How we stamp out that culture as soon as possible.  The job can’t be a power trip.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Some of you are shadowboxing.  I have yet to see someone say the kid acted appropriately.  We can't keep letting men like that represent law enforcement.  There is and has been a culture developed that seems somewhat pervasive that allows this type of on duty behavior far too often.  That is the point.  How we stamp out that culture as soon as possible.  The job can't be a power trip.

      Great, so you work on keeping the job from being a power trip. Until you accomplish your mission how about we all agree that giving out license and registration is not a big deal?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      How do we get to a place where law enforcement is held accountable more often?

      By holding them accountable in a real environment (ie not an environment where half of all people seem intent upon challenging the guys with the LEGAL AUTHORITY and the GUN

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5438

      You really think half of citizens act this way toward cops?If that were so, the death toll would be through the roof.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      Some of you are shadowboxing.  I have yet to see someone say the kid acted appropriately.  We can't keep letting men like that represent law enforcement.  There is and has been a culture developed that seems somewhat pervasive that allows this type of on duty behavior far too often.  That is the point.  How we stamp out that culture as soon as possible.  The job can't be a power trip.

      Great, so you work on keeping the job from being a power trip. Until you accomplish your mission how about we all agree that giving out license and registration is not a big deal?

      Agreed.  One way to progress toward that goal would be to set very strict and specific situations where LEO can initiate physical contact with a citizen.  Then actually dismiss violators.  Physical contact with person and/or property can only be a last resort.  I would hope you would also agree that not providing those documents, even upon repeated request, is never grounds to initiate physical confrontation from a solitary LEO.  When physical confrontation is required to dispense the duties of LEO, and the situation allows time, LEO MUST wait for additional responding units. Universal body cameras are also clearly a must.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      You really think half of citizens act this way toward cops?If that were so, the death toll would be through the roof.

      No, half is an exaggeration but if you watch that video it's like the kid is more worried about a video then the potential risk. That said though, I had a long talk a GE data ago with a State Trooper as part of my work. He said that his stop-related interactions are about 50/50 (polite/aggressive). He said it did not used to be that way and si his sense was that some views cops as being constrained by recent negative press and so they see the current situation as an opportunity to thumb their noses at cops. That sounds a lot like what you see in the video of this incident. Far from scientific, but ...

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      The potential risk of being a dickhead verbally to a uniformed officer should be a night in jail.  That is a standard I would assume reasonable people would be working toward. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Some of you are shadowboxing.  I have yet to see someone say the kid acted appropriately.  We can't keep letting men like that represent law enforcement.  There is and has been a culture developed that seems somewhat pervasive that allows this type of on duty behavior far too often.  That is the point.  How we stamp out that culture as soon as possible.  The job can't be a power trip.

      Great, so you work on keeping the job from being a power trip. Until you accomplish your mission how about we all agree that giving out license and registration is not a big deal?

      Agreed.  One way to progress toward that goal would be to set very strict and specific situations where LEO can initiate physical contact with a citizen.  Then actually dismiss violators.  Physical contact with person and/or property can only be a last resort.  I would hope you would also agree that not providing those documents, even upon repeated request, is never grounds to initiate physical confrontation from a solitary LEO.  When physical confrontation is required to dispense the duties of LEO, and the situation allows time, LEO MUST wait for additional responding units. Universal body cameras are also clearly a must.

      LEOs already operate under rules of engagement, so to speak. You actually see them in the video. The cop has the right (in most states I know of) to arrest someone refusing to provide those documents, although I agree with you he should have waited for help and, generally speaking, could've handled things differently (understatement). But, none of that excuses the outright STUPIDITY of th kid who escalated things at every opportunity and despite repeated requests from the cop. I mean, he threw punches at the cop. Good for him though. He let the world know that ONE cop in small town Michigan could've o.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      No excuse is required on behalf of the dead boy.  His belligerence and stupidity is in no way being excused.  Why are you struggling over this conversational point so greatly?  He should not have died.  The officer’s behavior leading up to, and including initiating a physical confrontation alone, was completely inappropriate.  His behavior is what requires excuse.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      The potential risk of being a dickhead verbally to a uniformed officer should be a night in jail.  That is a standard I would assume reasonable people would be working toward.

      This kids was more than "a dickhead verbally," right? I mean, he's not a puppet, right? He made a CHOICE to fight, right?That's the thing. I saw the stupidest tweet. It said something like "unarmed kid killed for flashing lights."  Your "dickhead" comment is much the same. Confrontations take place in levels. So, he chose not to give the paperwork to the cop. That CHOICE resulted in his arrest. The cop could've handled the arrest better, but once the kid is out of the car, it was his CHOICE to refuse to comply with the cops lie down order and it was his CHOICE to resist and then his CHOICE to fight. Yes, the cop certainly could've handled things better, but the proximate cause of the kid's death is not flashing his lights, it's assaulting the cop ... Which even if the cop is an incompetent dickhead still requires the kid to make a horrifically bad CHOICE (ie the assume a cop will not use a gun to defend himself after his failed arrest devolves into a fight in a road side ditch at night)Like most events with to parties, both are subject to reasonable criticism because both play a role in the result. Cops have the balance of the power under the law. They have legal authority and a gun. Maybe the kid should've been smart enough to work out his frustrations somewhere else. Let's do what we can to educate cops AND citizens

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      No excuse is required on behalf of the dead boy.  His belligerence and stupidity is in no way being excused.  Why are you struggling over this conversational point so greatly?  He should not have died.  The officer's behavior leading up to, and including initiating a physical confrontation alone, was completely inappropriate.  His behavior is what requires excuse.

      Assume you are correct, the kids still made a CHOICE to fight after the cop "initiated physical contact" to arrest him. Don't resist, don't get hurt. Don't assault, don't get killed. The cop has a gun. See my last comment. You keep looking way down the causal chain. The issue is the kid got killed. The proximate cause of that is choosing to punch the cop in the face, to become the aggressor. Hell, file charges right after the arrest and become a YouTube sensation. Don't become the aggressor against an armed person unless you are willing to risk your life. That's just common sense. But hey, I guess he got his point across ... Sort of.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      It’s not that complicated. The kid can only control his own conduct. Here’s the kids decision making:Give paperwork or say you don't have it- GO HOMEStop resisting arrest - GO HOMEPunch cop in the face - MAY NOT GO HOMEI have seen conflicting information about the taser. I know the cop did not have it on him as the two fought in the snow. I know that the cop pulls it out in the video. I think I even hear the cop use it? Do you know?The reason I ask is probably clear, but if not: the choice to fight a cop who you know doesn't have the taser or, even worse, who has already unsuccessfully deployed the taser against you ... Is stupid beyond all comprehension because it should be obvious the gun is next (unless you kill the cop first)Think about my last sentence and put yourself in the cops shoes. The cop was not charged but if he was I am reasonably confident a jury concludes it was reasonable for the cop to be in fear of his life if/when he is s being attacked AFTER failing to stop the attacker with non-lethal force

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      I am not sure who you are arguing with?  How many times can I say what the kid did was wrong?  Are you able to move past that and discuss how the individual who we pay to represent us responded to poor behavior by a citizen?Unfortunately though, because of the aggressive, deadly way that so many LEO have now been documented to operated, the kid's actions (once he eventually responded to the officer's phisicality in kind) could well be judged as self defense by a jury of his peers.  The kid questioned the legitimacy of the stop from the beginning.  A reasonable person might view the stop as a set up.  Even more so when additional information of other stops is introduced.  When the officer initiates physical contact:  opening the door, removing the kid, putting him on the ground,  kicking away his phone (the kid's only "protection" against a potential killer cop) and then tazing him, a reasonable person could conclude he was then in a position to defend his own life.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2862

      I am not sure who you are arguing with?

      No kidding. He keeps trying to make a point that one's arguing against. Typical Vinnie, letting the liquor do the talking again. Setting that aside this thread is filled w/ good points from TK, Chace and McDoug.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      I am not sure who you are arguing with?  How many times can I say what the kid did was wrong?  Are you able to move past that and discuss how the individual who we pay to represent us responded to poor behavior by a citizen?Unfortunately though, because of the aggressive, deadly way that so many LEO have now been documented to operated, the kid's actions (once he eventually responded to the officer's phisicality in kind) could well be judged as self defense by a jury of his peers.  The kid questioned the legitimacy of the stop from the beginning.  A reasonable person might view the stop as a set up.  Even more so when additional information of other stops is introduced.  When the officer initiates physical contact:  opening the door, removing the kid, putting him on the ground,  kicking away his phone (the kid's only "protection" against a potential killer cop) and then tazing him, a reasonable person could conclude he was then in a position to defend his own life.

      "A reasonable person might view the stop as a setup""Potential killer cop"TK - the cop responded to the kid flashing his high beams, he wasn't lying in wait (lol), and told him that he had 2 stops just like it earlier and called the stops in in the radio right in front of the kid. You think this kid thought he was being "set up" by a "potential killer cop" and so that is why he didn't give him his driver's license?lol Beyond those absurd statements, you describe the kid's conduct as responding "in kind" to the officer's physicality. That is stupid. Who responds to an officer's attempt to arrest you by assaulting the officer? That is what gets you killed. Look, I obviously do not know but there must be tens of thousands of stops across the U.S. every day. Almost all of them end under control with little or no problem. It's becomes a big deal in the press recently, some legitimate examples some bogus. Statistically speaking, we are most likely discussing a very small problem, albeit with huge consequences. I am all for holding LEOs accountable to much higher standard than civilians, but that doesn't change the fact that civilians should respond to request by LEOs. Complain after the fact, if you feel you've been wronged.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      By the way, what’s the incident rate for these set-ups by killer cops?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      I am not sure who you are arguing with?

      No kidding. He keeps trying to make a point that one's arguing against.

      That cop knew he was blinding other drivers but instead of getting it looked at he decided to use it as a tool to provoke and menace the general public

      LolBoy.... "driver's license, registration and proof insurance".... Wow, that's menacing!

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      good to see some level headed people commenting here…….rather than the “I hate cops usual suspects”.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2862

      Boy.... "driver's license, registration and proof insurance".... Wow, that's menacing!

      No wonder everyone thinks you're an idiot.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 9891

      Boy.... "driver's license, registration and proof insurance".... Wow, that's menacing!

      No wonder everyone thinks you're an idiot.

      yawn

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    • vlagatta

      Member
      Post count: 2638

      Boy.... "driver's license, registration and proof insurance".... Wow, that's menacing!

      No wonder everyone thinks you're an idiot.

      he shut you down.....and you have to revert to playing the childish...."everyone thinks" card.... you may as well have just said you surrender.

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