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    • aquilus

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      Post count: 93

      I know there is a lot of feeling from people in general about taking high risk draft picksHowever I believe in some cases you must take a risk if the player is talented enough.Usually the draft in its own nature will punish the player for being a bad seed by sending first round talents into the later rounds.Player like Percy Harvin and Janoris Jenkins are prime examples where people (especially here) refrain these players from consideration because they had a colorful past but have turned out to be 110% squeeky clean ever since..We have to take into effect these guys were college kids and did some really stupid things (like most college kids do)People forget and are surprised to know Dan Marino was drafted low because of his college antics....was he ever a bad seed in Miami?Now im not advocating someone who is a chronic offender, spent a lot of time in jail, etc but someone who screws up once...maybe twice we cannot be so quick to instantly lower the boom on them

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5572

      Who is it that you’re referring to?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      Who is it that you're referring to?

      nobody specifically...In our past drafts we have passed over some players who many people think are bad seeds like Janoris Jenkins and Percy Harvinwho turned out to be not only model citizens but damn good playersThe Joe Haden thread got me thinking about Janoris Jenkins who talent wise is probably as good or better than HadenIt also seems like we are a very safe draft team. I was thinking to myself after the first night if we had the first pick in the draft we probably would have took MatthewsBecause Clowney is the sexy pick and we usually dont make sexy picks

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1125

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3028

      Who is it that you're referring to?

      nobody specifically...In our past drafts we have passed over some players who many people think are bad seeds like Janoris Jenkins and Percy Harvinwho turned out to be not only model citizens but damn good playersThe Joe Haden thread got me thinking about Janoris Jenkins who talent wise is probably as good or better than HadenIt also seems like we are a very safe draft team. I was thinking to myself after the first night if we had the first pick in the draft we probably would have took MatthewsBecause Clowney is the sexy pick and we usually dont make sexy picks

      I hear what youre saying, but I would argue that Talib, Bowers, and ASJ this year were "sexy" picks.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2608

      Also, Harvin’s behavior got him run out of Minnesota.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1658

      Personally, I still feel pretty good about the team having passed on Harvin.  He’s missed an awful lot of time (which was my concern with him back during the draft.)  Granted, the guy we took instead … had his ups and downs.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1658

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Talib, Williams and Blount worked out pretty well.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 534

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Except Bowers, the other three were serviceable players.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      Also, Harvin's behavior got him run out of Minnesota.

      I thought his migraines did that...he was injured a lot

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1125

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Except Bowers, the other three were serviceable players.

      The Mike Williams pick ended up costing the Bucs their 1st round pick this year to replace him.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3028

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Except Bowers, the other three were serviceable players.

      We took Blount off someone else's practice squad.  Poor example.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2608

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1125

      Not a poor example at all.  I specifically said “picked up” Blount.when you add bad character guys to your roster, you can't count on them in the long run.  Then you go into a season with a guy like Mike Williams like the Bucs did this year and have to get rid of him for being a thug and it costs you your first round pick to replace him.  Had you not had him at all, you could have addressed that need in free agency.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      The “sometimes” should wait until a team is strong enough to handle the “risk”…

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1658

      Not a poor example at all.  I specifically said "picked up" Blount.

      Yes, we got a guy who stepped in and gave us a 1000 yard season for free.  That's a *good* result.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1125

      Screw taking a risk on any thug jerkoffs.  Give me players like John Lynch and Mike Alstott, not Rae Carruth.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Bowers wasnt a character risk....Talib, Williams, and Blount worked out pretty well while they were hereBlount wasnt drafted by us...or anyoneTaib was a Gruden/Allen pick (who did take chances on questionable players)Williams troubles at Syracuse surrounded academic issues nothing really criminal

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      Not a poor example at all.  I specifically said "picked up" Blount.

      Yes, we got a guy who stepped in and gave us a 1000 yard season for free.  That's a *good* result.

      Blount's issues were also not of the criminal nature...off the field

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1357

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Blount was an un-drafted free agent and did not cost the Buccaneers a draft pick. In his first season with Tampa, he ran for 1007 yards on 201 carries averaging 5 yards a carry, and that was only starting in 7 games. Blount did not have a plethora of the off-the-field incidents as some suggested he might have during draft discussion due to his flagrant striking of a Boise State player. Love Blount or not, he gave the Buccaneers great production at virtually no cost.Talib had more than his fair share of the off-the-field distractions and could be listed as a cancer in the locker room. Nevertheless, Talib is 8th all time in Buccaneers' history in Interceptions with 18. In perspective, Brian Kelly had 22 career interceptions with the Buccaneers to Talib's 18. Talib only played in four seasons to Kelly's nine. It's difficult to say the player was a bust as he's considered a premier corner in the league, but the team traded him away for virtually nothing, so I believe the pick itself was a bust as he was not with the team very long and cost the team a premium pick.Williams is actually one of the Buccaneers most prolific wide receivers in its history, scoring over 20 touchdowns, a feat matched only by a handful of receivers. Williams was only a fourth* round pick and accumulated great production. Williams had considerable off the field issues and was dealt to Buffalo this season. I don't consider this pick a bust at all, we took a mid round flyer on a guy who was a first round prospect with off the field issues.Bowers should have been cut yesterday.I agree with the premise of this argument, because without Warren Sapp I don't think this team has a Lombardi and his off-the-field issues were considerable and well-documented.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 642

      For a fourth rounder Williams gave us great value.  The mistake was giving him the contract.  You could argue that if he’d left as a FA we’d have to replace him anyway.  Evans should be an upgrade and worth the  #1 pick.  The problem is we had to invest that  pick in a year we didn’t plan to.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      Screw taking a risk on any thug jerkoffs.  Give me players like John Lynch and Mike Alstott, not Rae Carruth.

      Larry, What I am saying is you cant judge the player 100% for the stupid things they do in college...I mean as I gave an example Dan Marino was one who was passed on for this reason We have seen many examples where questionable characters in college have turned into model citizens in the NFL (for the most part I believe its because they leave the hood mess behind them when they move cross country to play football)However we see a lot of players with clean records being drafted turn around and Murder someone....great example  you gave Rae Carruth

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3028

      Not a poor example at all.  I specifically said "picked up" Blount.when you add bad character guys to your roster, you can't count on them in the long run.  Then you go into a season with a guy like Mike Williams like the Bucs did this year and have to get rid of him for being a thug and it costs you your first round pick to replace him.  Had you not had him at all, you could have addressed that need in free agency.

      3SK pretty much nailed it.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 642

      3SK, great example with Sapp.  Conversely,  like Carruth, Hernandez didn’t work out to well for the Pats.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      3SK, great example with Sapp.  Conversely,  like Carruth, Hernandez didn't work out to well for the Pats.

      Rae Carruth was drafted with little to no red flagsand and  I watched Hernandez at Florida he was a model football player there prior to being drafted (Urban Meyer liked Hernandez so much he went up and tried to recruit more from his family circle I believe)I am not saying draft a thug round one....I am saying late 2nd to 3rd-7th round ...the player takes his punishment for being a bad apple by losing millions of dollars..which usually lights a fire under them to prove they have learned their lesson and if we draft them and they dont pan out....cut him.if we cut a first round talent we drafted in round 4 because he is a thug what really have we lost other than a mid round pick?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3341

      http://fansided.com/2012/12/21/percy-harvins-day-may-be-numbered-after-latest-clash-with-leslie-frazier/#!NpVqT

      A year later, Harvin got a Superbowl ring and Frazier got a pink slip.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2608

      and  I watched Hernandez at Florida he was a model football player there prior to being drafted

      Also untrue. He was arrested for punching a bouncer, questioned in a shooting and suspended for marijuana use. He fell in the NFL draft because of his character concerns.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1637

      Colt Lyerla is still out there. Jussayin…..

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      and  I watched Hernandez at Florida he was a model football player there prior to being drafted

      Also untrue. He was arrested for punching a bouncer, questioned in a shooting and suspended for marijuana use. He fell in the NFL draft because of his character concerns.

      you are right about those...yeah Hernandez did have some prior issues....I think I was remembering his final year when he was basically babysat by Meyer and naturally had a good year off the field

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Colt Lyerla is still out there. Jussayin.....

      I’d be ok taking a risk on him.  Just no ghetto thugs.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3027

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      Similar to drafting Barrett Ruud, couple good years and then FLOP!

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5188

      Dan Marino, my all time fave QB, was rumored to have been a massive coke addict during his days as a Dolphin.Great QB.  FAST release...

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 831

      the Bucs took Talib, Bowers and Mike Williams and picked up Blount.  How did those work out?

      As usual, you are neglecting the underlying issue that surrounds the situation..... That is, they were being managed by an incompetent GM who is out of the NFL after just one stint and were consequently coached/mentored by two rookie HCs, who were even less skilled at their jobs. If you knew football, you would know that having a guy like Lovie Smith around during those players' time in Tampa..... well, lets just say things would have turned out differently for most of those players you just listed.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      I know there is a lot of feeling from people in general about taking high risk draft picksHowever I believe in some cases you must take a risk if the player is talented enough.Usually the draft in its own nature will punish the player for being a bad seed by sending first round talents into the later rounds.Player like Percy Harvin and Janoris Jenkins are prime examples where people (especially here) refrain these players from consideration because they had a colorful past but have turned out to be 110% squeeky clean ever since..We have to take into effect these guys were college kids and did some really stupid things (like most college kids do)People forget and are surprised to know Dan Marino was drafted low because of his college antics....was he ever a bad seed in Miami?Now im not advocating someone who is a chronic offender, spent a lot of time in jail, etc but someone who screws up once...maybe twice we cannot be so quick to instantly lower the boom on them

      why start this thread today? Sounds like you already have some sort of bias towards lovie and licht? Both our top 2 picks had questions regarding attitude, temper, immaturity or off the field legal issues.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1125

      Dan Marino, my all time fave QB, was rumored to have been a massive coke addict during his days as a Dolphin.Great QB.  FAST release...

      I don't consider cocaine to be a problem.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1658

      Dan Marino, my all time fave QB, was rumored to have been a massive coke addict during his days as a Dolphin.Great QB.  FAST release...

      I don't consider cocaine to be a problem.

      *blink*

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 612

      Dan Marino, my all time fave QB, was rumored to have been a massive coke addict during his days as a Dolphin.Great QB.  FAST release...

      I don't consider cocaine to be a problem.

      Java, are you really Lawrence Taylor?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3028

      Dan Marino, my all time fave QB, was rumored to have been a massive coke addict during his days as a Dolphin.Great QB.  FAST release...

      I don't consider cocaine to be a problem.

      Rick James agrees

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Hey it was the 80s in Miami.  Cut Dan a break.  Plus he wasn’t very smart based in his wonderlic score.  Bottom line though is cocaine is only a problem if you can’t afford it.  Marino could.  Considering all the HOFers there are that were coke heads it must help.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Weed on the other hand mellows you out and makes you passive. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8096

      Weed on the other hand mellows you out and makes you passive.

      ...unless you drink beer...

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      I know there is a lot of feeling from people in general about taking high risk draft picksHowever I believe in some cases you must take a risk if the player is talented enough.Usually the draft in its own nature will punish the player for being a bad seed by sending first round talents into the later rounds.Player like Percy Harvin and Janoris Jenkins are prime examples where people (especially here) refrain these players from consideration because they had a colorful past but have turned out to be 110% squeeky clean ever since..We have to take into effect these guys were college kids and did some really stupid things (like most college kids do)People forget and are surprised to know Dan Marino was drafted low because of his college antics....was he ever a bad seed in Miami?Now im not advocating someone who is a chronic offender, spent a lot of time in jail, etc but someone who screws up once...maybe twice we cannot be so quick to instantly lower the boom on them

      why start this thread today? Sounds like you already have some sort of bias towards lovie and licht? Both our top 2 picks had questions regarding attitude, temper, immaturity or off the field legal issues.

      This isnt a bias toward Lovie or Licht...the two players I cited as examples were players who were drafted prior to this regimeIt just seems to me "in general" The Bucs are not one of those teams who would lets say take a Janoris Jenkins even if he was there in the ThirdYou look at teams like New England and St LouisI know I know we are ALL SICK of hearing about Michael Sam...but what they did took balls seriouslyand I just dont see us taking chances like that...some may see that as a good thing others like me think we miss out on good players because we are very narrow and tight as a FO(Not that in any way Michael Sam and his lifestyle is related to some of this issues listed here in this thread)

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      This isnt a bias toward Lovie or Licht...the two players I cited as examples were players who were drafted prior to this regimeIt just seems to me "in general" The Bucs are not one of those teams who would lets say take a Janoris Jenkins even if he was there in the ThirdYou look at teams like New England and St LouisI know I know we are ALL SICK of hearing about Michael Sam...but what they did took balls seriouslyand I just dont see us taking chances like that...some may see that as a good thing others like me think we miss out on good players because we are very narrow and tight as a FO(Not that in any way Michael Sam and his lifestyle is related to some of this issues listed here in this thread)

      if its not about L&L then why post this now, days after their first draft?  “in general” do you think the glazers tell the Bucs coaches and GM who they can draft?  you are basing your opinion on hypothetical situations that never even took place!as for michael sam, hes simply not a great player.  he did have one solid season.  how come his other 3 seasons were subpar?  how come he performed so poorly at the combine and pro day?  what does he do well?  he brings the circus, thats what he does well.  it didnt take balls to draft him, it took stupidity.  lots of bad press coming their way when they have to cut him.who did we miss out on this year for being "narrow"?  you cant judge the current regime for things the past might have done.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      This isnt a bias toward Lovie or Licht...the two players I cited as examples were players who were drafted prior to this regimeIt just seems to me "in general" The Bucs are not one of those teams who would lets say take a Janoris Jenkins even if he was there in the ThirdYou look at teams like New England and St LouisI know I know we are ALL SICK of hearing about Michael Sam...but what they did took balls seriouslyand I just dont see us taking chances like that...some may see that as a good thing others like me think we miss out on good players because we are very narrow and tight as a FO(Not that in any way Michael Sam and his lifestyle is related to some of this issues listed here in this thread)

      if its not about L&L then why post this now, days after their first draft?  "in general" do you think the glazers tell the Bucs coaches and GM who they can draft?  you are basing your opinion on hypothetical situations that never even took place!as for michael sam, hes simply not a great player.  he did have one solid season.  how come his other 3 seasons were subpar?  how come he performed so poorly at the combine and pro day?  what does he do well?  he brings the circus, thats what he does well.  it didnt take balls to draft him, it took stupidity.  lots of bad press coming their way when they have to cut him.who did we miss out on this year for being "narrow"?  you cant judge the current regime for things the past might have done.

      This is a feeling I have had for sometime about the culture of how this team has drafted recentlyIt seems like ever since Rich McKay and to some extent Bruce Allen has left our FO has become somewhat conservative3SK brought up a good example of Warren Sapp....do you think for a second the Bucs would take Sapp today with their first round pick after being accused of  failing drug tests for pot and Coke? I dont think he would have even be on their boardDo you think today the Bucs would draft Michael Irvin? Not a chanceThis is in no way directed at this particular FO but just the Bucs culture in general and may indicate in some degree why we have not been to the playoffs since Gruden was still the coach here...we have become very conservativeIt seems like Character is the #1 concern our FO has and to me  its a flawed way of thinking and in "some" respects the highest character guys in college seem to be the first ones to screw up in the pros

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      Dont get me wrong….in no way do I think for a second we should go out and draft a team full of thugsBut....It just is frustrating when you see a Carlos Dunlap, a Janoris Jenkins,  a Tyrann Mathieu, a Vontaze Burfict passed because of character concerns...who end up being decent football playersand for the most part good model citizens

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      How about Greg hardy? He probably would have been on your list 2 days ago, right?I also don't see how your post isn't aimed at L&L.  Do you think the glazers sent down the order not to draft questionable players?  The nfl also isn't the same league it was 10 years ago. You can get suspended for 2nd hand smoke now.I also think while the list is small of troubled guys who turn their lives around and also become great players, the list of troubled guys who stay troubled or flame out is much longer.And on top of it all, we drafted a guy in the x2nd with a DUI right?  Who did we take off our list from this draft?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      Im not blaming L&L for the way the whole FO  isand I think because of the recent mishaps of a few shady character guys like Williams and Talib made us apprehensive about drafting guys with some character concernsbut I am just saying you cannot paint everyone with a broad brush because not every player does not learn from screw ups they made in collegeand in the later rounds of the draft the risk of these players drops and it seems like we as a organization dont even take chances on players in later rounds who have first round talentand a lot of "Fans" of the bucs seem to hold to this as well because I remember pulling for players like Dunlap and Jenkins in the later rounds and it was met with a lot of adversitybecause they viewed them as screw ups

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      the whole FO is L&L.  they are all brand new.  talib was long one before they got here.  but they are the guys that jettisoned williams.  so possibly they do value character, which is not a bad thing.i just think the timing and the entire post is misguided when there is no reason to believe our current decision makers did this.  (were narrow minded and bypassed great players because of possible character flaws).

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 176

      L&L is the head scout…the regional scouts…and all the people who report on these kids?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      L&L is the head scout...the regional scouts...and all the people who report on these kids?

      they brought everyone in.  they are giving the instructions on how to scout.  if we are crossing off players, it because L&L said to imo.and agian, there is no reason to believe we passed on any super players due to questionable pasts.  is there?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2697

      Dan Marino, my all time fave QB, was rumored to have been a massive coke addict during his days as a Dolphin.Great QB.  FAST release...

      I don't consider cocaine to be a problem.

      *blink*

      Ignore him...he is a Troll....

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2775

      Iv’e said it before and I will say it again.  I dont care if you like balls across the nose, rob liquor stores for a hobby, or can’t go one sentence without using the word fuck…………as long as you can play football in the NFL I welcome you with open arms.  JFF’s game has entirely too many holes in it to be taken seriously in this league.  Should be fun to keep an eye on though.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2673

      LuckyLarry knows football.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 67

      Just take someone else

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