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    • Feel Real Good

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      Post count: 59

      October 22, 2012: Mike Holmgren “retires” as team president. He had about $16 million left on his contract. December 31, 2012: Browns fire head coach Pat Shurmer and general manager Tom Heckert. Shurmer had approximately $4 million left on his contract. We can guess Heckert was owed somewhere between $2-4 million. January 11, 2013: Browns hire Rob Chudzinski as head coach. January 18, 2013: Browns hire Michael Lombardi as general manager. December 29, 2013: Browns fire head coach Rob Chudzinski. Chudzinski had $10.5 million left on his contract. January 24, 2014: Browns hire Mike Pettine as head coach. February 11, 2014: Browns fire general manager Michael Lombardi and promote Ray Farmer to that position. We can guess Lombardi was due at least $5 million. October 13, 2014: Browns have a 3-2 record and generally look better than they have in a decade.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1845

      October 22, 2012: Mike Holmgren "retires" as team president. He had about $16 million left on his contract. December 31, 2012: Browns fire head coach Pat Shurmer and general manager Tom Heckert. Shurmer had approximately $4 million left on his contract. We can guess Heckert was owed somewhere between $2-4 million. January 11, 2013: Browns hire Rob Chudzinski as head coach. January 18, 2013: Browns hire Michael Lombardi as general manager. December 29, 2013: Browns fire head coach Rob Chudzinski. Chudzinski had $10.5 million left on his contract. January 24, 2014: Browns hire Mike Pettine as head coach. February 11, 2014: Browns fire general manager Michael Lombardi and promote Ray Farmer to that position. We can guess Lombardi was due at least $5 million. October 13, 2014: Browns have a 3-2 record and generally look better than they have in a decade.

      So you're saying there is a chance, a slim one, that the Browns could fire Lovie for us? Cuz while I like your thinking, I highly doubt the Glazer boys are smart enough to walk away from this train wreck coach for at least another year.... but I'd love to be wrong. :D

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 482

      Firing is pointless if you dont get BETTER guys to replace them.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 11045

      The Cleveland Browns are going to kick the crap out of us…. let that sink in.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4344

      The Cleveland Browns are going to kick the crap out of us.... let that sink in.

      Thats so depressingthey also have gotten a ton of extra 1st rounders from the RGIII deal and the Trent Richardson trade

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      Unfortunately for us, the Browns have been firing significantly better drafters then we have.  Excellent post though.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 318

      Is Mike Holmgren looking to coach again?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1312

      I would never root for the Brown to beat the Bucs but I am rooting for that team to have a nice turn around for their fans.. Another example of a team that makes life difficult to be a fan

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      If I’ve missed your point, correct me, buf it it’s that the point that the Browns finally figured it out – now way.The Browns were 3-2 and looking good last year as well.  So far, they've played an easy schedule, playing the Steelers twice, the Ravens, the Saints, and the Titans.  The Saints and the Ravens were the two competive teams they played losing/winning each game by 2 points. And they're going to look better - they have the Jaguars, Raiders, and Bucs the next 3 weeks.  They should win all 3 games. The real test comes on the backend of their schedule.The Browns will be improved over last year, if for no other reason than they have improved QB play.  It's no coincidence that the 2013 Browns took a nosedive after Hoyer was injured in Week 5.But arguing that a repeatedly botched hiring process is the reason is 3-2 is nonsensical.  There's no causual link, and it's not even clear yet if the Browns are that good.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      But arguing that a repeatedly botched hiring process is the reason is 3-2 is nonsensical. 

      The Browns are not 3-2 due to repeatedly making mistakes. They're 3-2 because they were able to admit to making a mistake sooner rather than later and correcting that mistake.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 376

      The Cleveland Browns are going to kick the crap out of us.... let that sink in.

      Thats so depressingthey also have gotten a ton of extra 1st rounders from the RGIII deal and the Trent Richardson trade

      I guess my draft history is fuzzy.  Explain to me how the Browns benefited from the RGIII trade when Washington traded all their firsts to the Rams to move up?  What picks did Cleveland get out of this deal?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 129

      I wish we could just give Gruden what ever it took to bring him back.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      But arguing that a repeatedly botched hiring process is the reason is 3-2 is nonsensical. 

      The Browns are not 3-2 due to repeatedly making mistakes. They're 3-2 because they were able to admit to making a mistake sooner rather than later and correcting that mistake.

      They were also 3-2 last year.  And they both have an easier schedule this year and their starting QB isn't injured.  I don't think you have demonstrated a causal or correlative link between their coaching decisions and record.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 805

      They have a solid dline and oline. That’s the biggest difference that I see between the teams.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4344

      The Cleveland Browns are going to kick the crap out of us.... let that sink in.

      Thats so depressingthey also have gotten a ton of extra 1st rounders from the RGIII deal and the Trent Richardson trade

      I guess my draft history is fuzzy.  Explain to me how the Browns benefited from the RGIII trade when Washington traded all their firsts to the Rams to move up?  What picks did Cleveland get out of this deal?

      DERPyoure right. i was thinking of the Rams and confusing the the Watkins and T-rich trades with the Browns and RGIII

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    • gthrun

      Participant
      Post count: 781

      How about Mike Holmgren as GM and Jon Gruden as HC? Seriously.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Firing is pointless if you dont get BETTER guys to replace them.

      it would be pretty hard to do worse but Im confident the Glazer boys could find someone.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 5954

      How about Mike Holmgren as GM and Jon Gruden as HC? Seriously.

      Wouldn't be my first choices, tbh.  But once I'm in rat off drowning ship mode everything will start looking better.  At least we didn't have a verified awful draft.  Evans looks like he can play.  ASJ isn't great, but there is certainly potential imo.  A lot will fall on how Sims turns out.  Looks like there might be some weight on his shoulders as soon as he is physically capable.  The linemen, who knows yet really?  Herron doesn't look good.  You have to be able to catch the football.  He is getting open though, even against the other teams worst DBs, it's still something.  I say it every time I post about this, but I'm not crazy about our general approach to the draft yet.  Also, we have a lot of watevs roster spots for an NFL franchise.  Do we have any young players undrafted or off other teams that have looked at all promising?  Damn it this was supposed to be a positive paragraph. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      At least we didn't have a verified awful draft.  Evans looks like he can play.  ASJ isn't great, but there is certainly potential imo.  A lot will fall on how Sims turns out.  Looks like there might be some weight on his shoulders as soon as he is physically capable.  The linemen, who knows yet really?  Herron doesn't look good.  You have to be able to catch the football.  He is getting open though, even against the other teams worst DBs, it's still something.  I say it every time I post about this, but I'm not crazy about our general approach to the draft yet. 

      What I (and others) haven't understood is the de-sync between what this team wanted to do and it's draft and free agency plans.  There seems to be almost two competing visions for the teams.  Tedford was talking about speed in space, but we got big (relatively) slow skill position players to mimic the Bears offence when Trestman talked much more like the Packers/Eagles offence.This seemed to be confirmed when it got out that Tedford didn't have that many deep plays in the playbook (which doesn't make sense with the Bucs WRs).  It's really odd.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1025

      Cleveland had a good D last year, this year they’re putting the pieces together with Hoyer, who I think went 2-0 last year when starting.. In reality defense still wins games and that’s why I’m not all over the obsession with finding an elite qb, you fail more often than not.I'd much rather rely on 11 guys that can cover for each other to carry a team, than rely and gamble to find the 1 guy who we never seen play an NFL snap before.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      Cleveland had a good D last year, this year they're putting the pieces together with Hoyer, who I think went 2-0 last year when starting.. In reality defense still wins games and that's why I'm not all over the obsession with finding an elite qb, you fail more often than not.I'd much rather rely on 11 guys that can cover for each other to carry a team, than rely and gamble to find the 1 guy who we never seen play an NFL snap before.

      The best teams have both. It's not an either/or proposition.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 11506

      Firing is pointless if you dont get BETTER guys to replace them.

      Anyone is better . Even Schiano is better.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      Firing is pointless if you dont get BETTER guys to replace them.

      Anyone is better . Even Schiano is better.

      Woah woah woah.  Remember 0-8?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

      October 22, 2012: Mike Holmgren "retires" as team president. He had about $16 million left on his contract. December 31, 2012: Browns fire head coach Pat Shurmer and general manager Tom Heckert. Shurmer had approximately $4 million left on his contract. We can guess Heckert was owed somewhere between $2-4 million. January 11, 2013: Browns hire Rob Chudzinski as head coach. January 18, 2013: Browns hire Michael Lombardi as general manager. December 29, 2013: Browns fire head coach Rob Chudzinski. Chudzinski had $10.5 million left on his contract. January 24, 2014: Browns hire Mike Pettine as head coach. February 11, 2014: Browns fire general manager Michael Lombardi and promote Ray Farmer to that position. We can guess Lombardi was due at least $5 million. October 13, 2014: Browns have a 3-2 record and generally look better than they have in a decade.

      Agreed with the premise here. Win now. I am tired of being told to wait. Win, or get the hell outta here. Time to start holding people accountable for the years of awful football being put on the field. Sorry to Lovie and Licht but we have been enduring this for too long. Lovie's response when asked by Stroud what he would say to the fans expecting a better product:I would say hold on the year isnt over, we will get better. You wouldnt go out and buy a super bowl ticket if we were 6-0.I would go buy one, just for the excitement and pure pleasure of seeing a good product on the field. Let me be excited about this team for the first time since 2010.

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

      I remember 0-8. Do you remember Schiano rigging the captain’s vote, or when he stole Freeman’s medical records and released them, or how he was responsible for MRSA? No, I suppose those events are totally unconnected in your mind.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      When did the browns start rebuilding?

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2697

      October 22, 2012: Mike Holmgren "retires" as team president. He had about $16 million left on his contract. December 31, 2012: Browns fire head coach Pat Shurmer and general manager Tom Heckert. Shurmer had approximately $4 million left on his contract. We can guess Heckert was owed somewhere between $2-4 million. January 11, 2013: Browns hire Rob Chudzinski as head coach. January 18, 2013: Browns hire Michael Lombardi as general manager. December 29, 2013: Browns fire head coach Rob Chudzinski. Chudzinski had $10.5 million left on his contract. January 24, 2014: Browns hire Mike Pettine as head coach. February 11, 2014: Browns fire general manager Michael Lombardi and promote Ray Farmer to that position. We can guess Lombardi was due at least $5 million. October 13, 2014: Browns have a 3-2 record and generally look better than they have in a decade.

      They had the same record this time last year....Wait till the season ends to crown them

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    • sgtmaj

      Participant
      Post count: 8

      October 22, 2012: Mike Holmgren "retires" as team president. He had about $16 million left on his contract. December 31, 2012: Browns fire head coach Pat Shurmer and general manager Tom Heckert. Shurmer had approximately $4 million left on his contract. We can guess Heckert was owed somewhere between $2-4 million. January 11, 2013: Browns hire Rob Chudzinski as head coach. January 18, 2013: Browns hire Michael Lombardi as general manager. December 29, 2013: Browns fire head coach Rob Chudzinski. Chudzinski had $10.5 million left on his contract. January 24, 2014: Browns hire Mike Pettine as head coach. February 11, 2014: Browns fire general manager Michael Lombardi and promote Ray Farmer to that position. We can guess Lombardi was due at least $5 million. October 13, 2014: Browns have a 3-2 record and generally look better than they have in a decade.

      Well Cleveland benefits from a favorable schedule.  They've definitely improved.  While you can't take away from their comeback against the Titans, the truth is they were down big to the Titans.  Their NO's victory is diminished on account that NO sort of sucks up to this point.  You guys should have beaten NO in their dome.  It's amazing to think how differently  you guy's season could have been up to this point if yall weren't screwed by the refs.  Everyone on this board would probably be singing a different tune, and the Bucs probably don't get trounced by the Ravens like they did.  Momentum is strange thing.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2697

      When did the browns start rebuilding?

      The day after Jim Brown left....

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2275

      Wonder what we could give them for Manziel

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    • fseyfi89

      Participant
      Post count: 8

      Browns fan hear who lives in the Tampa Bay area.  To me, the problems with the Browns started at the top.  Al Lerner was interested in the team, though he trusted the wrong guy to put things together (Carmen Policy).  This relationship was really set up by the NFL itself.  I think Lerner would have gotten things right eventually, but he was diagnosed with brain cancer in 2001.  His son Randy began taking over at that point and fully took control when his dad passed away in 2002.  Randy was never much of a football fan.  He preferred living over in the UK much of the time and cares much more about watching soccer than he does football.  Within a few years of taking over the Browns, he went and invested heavily in the Aston Villa Football Club in Birmingham, England and became the chairman of that team in 2006.Bucs fans may see some familiarity to this story since the Glazers share some of it.  Lerner decided to sell and sold to Jimmy Haslam, an avid American football fan with a competitive spirit.  Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi were pretty much shoved on him by the NFL.The back story on Chudzinski is that Banner hired him and expected him to listen to the FO.  After Hoyer went down and the season was lost last year, the FO asked Chud to play the younger players over vets so they could see what they had.  Chudzinski refused and played the old vets, thinking it gave the team a better chance to win.  That was the primary reason behind his firing.  The FO made a reasonable request and Chudzinski refused to follow it.Haslam allowed Banner to fire Chud after listening to him and was more active in the coaching search this time around.  From the beginning, he saw Lombardi and Banner bungle managing the process, make silly demands of interviewees, and just put on a clinic of how not to get a coach.Haslam had his own ideas and really liked Pettine in his two interviews.  Despite thinking about waiting for someone else, it was Haslam that pulled the trigger.  Haslam also noticed that several teams were interested in Ray Farmer, the assistant GM.  He asked around to other owners and execs in the NFL and found he was highly regarded everywhere for his talent evaluation skills.  The speculation is that he hatched the plan to can Lombardi and Banner and put someone he wanted in charge - not someone the NFL had "asked" him to take when he became a new owner.Ultimately my point is that things start at the top.  I would love for the Browns to make the postseason, but my primary care is seeing progress and hope for the future.  Pettine's defenses usually take about six weeks to sink in, so I am interested in seeing if the Pittsburgh game is where they put things together.  Further, they are being helped by guys Farmer identified and drafted.  Joel Bitonio doesn't get a lot of props because he's on the OL, but the guy has routinely been outplaying Pro Bowlers Joe Thomas and Alex Mack.  Not bad for a rookie OL.  Justin Gilbert is coming around now as well and growing.  Players are not making the same mistakes each week and seem to be correcting, indicating good coaching.  And the Browns have twice charged back from large second half deficits (successfully once), indicating they are making adjustments.  In the past, they would have rolled over.But you can see images all over of Jimmy Haslam at camp.  Jimmy Haslam at practice.  Jimmy Haslam in Browns gear watching his team.  Same goes for Farmer.  Concerning the Bucs, my opinion is the Glazers checked out years ago and remain clueless.  They haven't had a true GM with full authority since McKay and have not let the GM pick the coach since McKay did it with Dungy.Lovie Smith was a desperation move on their part.  An attempt to con the fans and try to recapture the magic of the Dungy years.  The central problem is they gave Lovie way too much power in their desperation and he has proven he can't really evaluate talent well.  Jason Licht strikes me as a figure head.  The org does do a good job trying to convince their fans that the players are better than they truly are as well, leading to high hopes every year.  I am much more cynical, but that probably comes from being a fan of Cleveland sports.  I usually expect that whatever can go wrong, will.  Regardless of who comes in, I'm not sure the Glazers will get it right or let whoever comes in do it their way.My opinion from the outside as one who knows a lot about the Bucs is that IF the determination is made that Lovie is the wrong guy, it is best to cut ties quickly instead of setting the team even further back.  Ask yourself at this point if you feel comfortable with the idea of Lovie having almost full say on who gets selected with a high first round draft pick?If the answer is no then the best solution is to get rid of him and find someone you do trust.  If I were in charge, I'd fire Lovie and Licht then go find a good GM first.  I'd let the GM handle the coaching search, since he can figure out who he can work with and ensure they are both on the same page. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      Great post.  My one question is what young QB did the Browns have that Chud should have played?

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    • fseyfi89

      Participant
      Post count: 8

      Great post.  My one question is what young QB did the Browns have that Chud should have played?

      Wasn't QB specifically.  Most of it focused on playing guys like Leon McFadden at CB (who actually didn't make the team this year), younger RBs over Willis McGahee (including Bobby Rainey, who they would cut at Chud's request).  At the beginning of the season, the FO did push for Chud to consider Hoyer as the starter and felt that if they had started him over Weeden that the first two games could have been wins (Weeden literally threw away the Dolphins game with INTs).  There was some chatter that they thought if Hoyer had been better prepared to start, he may not have been put into the situation where the torn ACL happened.  Silly speculation on their part, but they felt Chud didn't listen.  I think Banner and Lombardi really wanted a coach they could push around.  I wondered if the writing was on the wall when they hired Pettine, who is very no nonsense and didn't seem like he could be pushed around.  Then there was Farmer deciding to return despite the Dolphins being very interested in him as GM.  He pulled out and basically turned away other teams.  The Bucs are rumored to be a team that inquired about him.  I think he knew early on and was clued in by Haslam.  There's some indication that Haslam really wanted to hire Farmer as the GM last year, but the NFL's push for Banner led to Lombardi.  Haslam was able to convince Farmer to come in as the assistant GM.  Personally, I think Chudzinski can be a good head coach if he has a good GM that works well with him.  There were many things he did well, but Banner seemed to really want to hammer down power.  Probably because he lost so much when he was in Philly with Reid.  It took an active owner that cared and had a nose for success at the core of it.  We Browns fans have dealt with an absent owner that cared a lot more about running and watching a soccer team than the football team he inherited from his dad.  I think any real passion the Glazer boys had died after the Super Bowl.  That gave them the chance to leverage the franchise value and buy out Man U.  Then they could pursue their real passion and they cut corners with the Bucs as much as they could to finance it.I'd like to be wrong because I wish the Bucs no ill will, but I felt for a long time that nothing would change for the Browns as long as Randy Lerner was in charge.  I think the same of the Bucs.  As long as the Glazer boys own the team there may be a few blips on the radar (the Browns did have a playoff berth and a second winning season under Lerner), but the long term prognosis isn't good because the dysfunction runs down through the organization from the top.  Now if Derrick Brooks could lead an ownership group and find a way to buy the Bucs, I think the ship would get righted.  That would be a wonderful things for the Bucs.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 11506

      I remember 0-8. This team looks less competitive than that team.

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    • sgtmaj

      Participant
      Post count: 8

      Great post.  My one question is what young QB did the Browns have that Chud should have played?

      Wasn't QB specifically.  Most of it focused on playing guys like Leon McFadden at CB (who actually didn't make the team this year), younger RBs over Willis McGahee (including Bobby Rainey, who they would cut at Chud's request).  At the beginning of the season, the FO did push for Chud to consider Hoyer as the starter and felt that if they had started him over Weeden that the first two games could have been wins (Weeden literally threw away the Dolphins game with INTs).  There was some chatter that they thought if Hoyer had been better prepared to start, he may not have been put into the situation where the torn ACL happened.  Silly speculation on their part, but they felt Chud didn't listen.  I think Banner and Lombardi really wanted a coach they could push around.  I wondered if the writing was on the wall when they hired Pettine, who is very no nonsense and didn't seem like he could be pushed around.  Then there was Farmer deciding to return despite the Dolphins being very interested in him as GM.  He pulled out and basically turned away other teams.  The Bucs are rumored to be a team that inquired about him.  I think he knew early on and was clued in by Haslam.  There's some indication that Haslam really wanted to hire Farmer as the GM last year, but the NFL's push for Banner led to Lombardi.  Haslam was able to convince Farmer to come in as the assistant GM.  Personally, I think Chudzinski can be a good head coach if he has a good GM that works well with him.  There were many things he did well, but Banner seemed to really want to hammer down power.  Probably because he lost so much when he was in Philly with Reid.  It took an active owner that cared and had a nose for success at the core of it.  We Browns fans have dealt with an absent owner that cared a lot more about running and watching a soccer team than the football team he inherited from his dad.  I think any real passion the Glazer boys had died after the Super Bowl.  That gave them the chance to leverage the franchise value and buy out Man U.  Then they could pursue their real passion and they cut corners with the Bucs as much as they could to finance it.I'd like to be wrong because I wish the Bucs no ill will, but I felt for a long time that nothing would change for the Browns as long as Randy Lerner was in charge.  I think the same of the Bucs.  As long as the Glazer boys own the team there may be a few blips on the radar (the Browns did have a playoff berth and a second winning season under Lerner), but the long term prognosis isn't good because the dysfunction runs down through the organization from the top.  Now if Derrick Brooks could lead an ownership group and find a way to buy the Bucs, I think the ship would get righted.  That would be a wonderful things for the Bucs.

      No offense you guys screwed Chud, he set you guys up to even be decent today.  First time Pettine loses 3 games in a row he'll probably get fired and Hoyer will probably get traded right before the GM gets fired.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      No offense you guys screwed Chud, he set you guys up to even be decent today.  First time Pettine loses 3 games in a row he'll probably get fired and Hoyer will probably get traded right before the GM gets fired.

      I will say, Haslam may be more involved but boy does he seem like a total schmuck.

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    • fseyfi89

      Participant
      Post count: 8

      No offense you guys screwed Chud, he set you guys up to even be decent today.  First time Pettine loses 3 games in a row he'll probably get fired and Hoyer will probably get traded right before the GM gets fired.

      We didn't screw him nor did Haslam.  Haslam gave Banner what he wanted when he allowed him to be fired and basically used that as the rope to hang Banner with.  Chud wasn't given a fair shake and did help set things up - of course so did Banner to a point.  He was wise enough to trade Richardson.  Of course, Farmer also set us up by trading back a few spots and picking up the Bills' #1 pick in 2015  to do it while also moving around to create other future assets as well.  Pettine was smart to take the Browns job because of perception.  Haslam has said that the new coach will get a much longer shake because that's how you break that perception.  And, to be honest, I'm not sure the Browns will lose three in a row.  They could, but the schedule is not a tough one.  They could defeat everyone on their schedule.  Not saying that they will, but I don't look at the schedule and think "never gonna happen" to any team on it.  There's no Seattle or Denver or San Diego, etc on that schedule.  Indy and Cincy are the two best teams and they both have flaws.  I look at Pettine as the real deal and have liked him since they hired him.  I liked Chudzinski, but Pettine can motivate and get players to buy in in a way that Chud could not.  Pettine is much better at holding players accountable and is a big believer in film breakdown and working with players to fix problems.  Same goes for Farmer.  He was incredible in the draft, working the phones, and having a great eye for players.  Some will come along later like Pierre Desir while others like Bitonio are contributing now and Gilbert looks to have begun turning the corner.  If they can get Terrence West right, they will have an incredible three headed monster at RB with Tate, Crowell, and West.  I like Haslam as well.  It beats what we had before.  A guy who never wanted to talk to the fanbase or the press.  A guy who often wasn't at games.  Haslam may come off as a schmuck, but the guy has passion and a deep desire for his team to succeed.  That beats an owner that cares much more about the soccer club he's running any day.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      I say keep firing until someone actually takes the job seriously and wins.Same with the qb position.Why be scared of it? We're one of the top three worst teams in the nfl, ...does it really matter?Lovie and glennon can win or stfu.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      I say keep firing until someone actually takes the job seriously and wins.Same with the qb position.Why be scared of it? We're one of the top three worst teams in the nfl, ...does it really matter?Lovie and glennon can win or stfu.

      Well it matters in that it usually takes a couple of years for a coach to be able to put his team together.  I get the desire to kick the door down on Lovie, especially after the Schiano and Morris' disasters, but at some point fans have to ask themselves - when do you give a coach more time? For badly talented teams - like the Bucs have been since cleaning house under Dominik - there are no quick fixes. There is no coach who is going to come in here and win consistently until there is more talent on this team.Even Pettine's success right now is largely because of the structure in place beforehand. 

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