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    • warrenfb12

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      Post count: 549

      So with this complete collapse, it is seemingly inevitable that Lovie will be shipping off players/coaches to justify his job for another year.How many times does this have to play out? No we are not the most talented team in the NFL, but I do not buy the argument that we "do not have talent."Greg Schiano was a terrible coach, that said, his scheme was built around the talent he had. Which is what the issue is at hand here. Mason Foster looked like a pro bowler for the majority of last season, now he looks lost and exposed. Lavonte David, scribes raved about his season last year, we all know he pretty much lived in the backfield. We at one point had the most TFL in the league. Greg dialed up all kinds of stunts, much to the chagrin of many on this board, and the great Geraldini. Well, now we see why he dialed up these stunts, our guys cannot beat other teams O-lineman without smoke and mirrors. Gerald is getting what he wants, him and his guys just rushing the passer. It is failing miserably. Already Lovie has ditched a TE who was one of the few bright spots on the team, only to see him flourish in NE. At least Tim Wright could catch the ball, unlike ASJ thus far. Lovie deemed Jeremy Zuttah expendable, only to see him move on the the Ravens and own Gerald Mccoy and co. with two undrafted rookies playing at G and T beside him. Much like Lovie, Greg had to ship some players off as well. Although I tend to agree these players were counter productive to his program, guys like Aqib Talib have moved on to become staples at their positions for other teams. One could argue Aqib became the best at his position in the NFL. He certainly has stayed out of trouble. Michael Bennett? We all know the story there.My point is this, how many more guys are we going to be told do not have NFL talent, only to see them shipped off to other teams and thrive because they are coached and fit into the larger puzzle? My call is Jonathan Banks, a guy who showed such talent in man to man situations last year and in Schiano's scheme will be the first traded. Clearly, Lovie is down on him. Although I am not sure why? Is it because he is not his prototype? Is it because he is a large body kid who plays man to man? Then who after that? Mark Barron? Maybe Lovie will cut ties? A team like Pittsburgh will take him, put him into the box and play to his strengths? I dont trust this current regime with talent evaluation. Lovie likes soft players. Remember, this is the same man who coughed up a 2nd round pick for Gaines Adams. This is not how you build an NFL franchise. Your soft defense of pitch catch and try to tackle does not work anymore. I can sit back and give him the year. If he throws another clunker like Sunday though, thats it up starting up the hashtag...#firelovie.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 11506

      No more blowouts. Period.If we lose , fine , but getting blown out is unacceptable .Get it fixed over the bye. Get competitive . Or get the hell out of Tampa , Lovie.

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    • mdclarie

      Participant
      Post count: 867

      No more blowouts. Period.If we lose , fine , but getting blown out is unacceptable .Get it fixed over the bye. Get competitive . Or get the hell out of Tampa , Lovie.

      I 'understood' the Atlanta blowout. Short week, on the road, no McCoy, McCown blows. Saw that coming a mile away. The Ravens blowout is unacceptable. At home, full week to prepare against a mediocre offense and defense. We did NOTHING in the first half to move the ball or to even act as a speedbump on defense. It was demoralizing in every way as a Buc fan.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      A few things I think are pertinent.Schiano didn't build a scheme around his talent, he ran his scheme.  Wright isn't flourishing, he has 10 catches in 6 games.  When considering banks, do some research on a guy named charles Tillman.Did lovie have personnel control in Chicago?We got a lot of issues, but at least be honest or informed.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2847

        The next time the Bucs have a PC, maybe the media should just not show up, or at least all stand in the back and just leave w/o asking any questions…

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 160

      Since Lovie hates people questioning his schemes, a silent press corps would be good, but will never happen.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

      A few things I think are pertinent.Schiano didn't build a scheme around his talent, he ran his scheme.  Wright isn't flourishing, he has 10 catches in 6 games.  When considering banks, do some research on a guy named charles Tillman.Did lovie have personnel control in Chicago?We got a lot of issues, but at least be honest or informed.

      No, Schiano drafted David for his scheme and got the best out of Foster. His scheme focused on the strengths of our LB core. Which looked like an elite unit at one point. Now they look soft and lost. Wright, in the last three games played (where he has seen his most playing time), has 121 yards receiving and two TDs. For a 2nd TE playing with Gronk, thats pretty damn good. How is Mankins doing for us? Thats a failCharles Tilman and Jonathan Banks, I might give you some credibility here, but Tilman has been in a cover 2 his whole career and is asked to do a lot of different things. Lovie is on record as pushing for the Gaines Adams:“He’s a guy with a lot of ability,” said coach Lovie Smith. “He’s got good speed and quickness. We did a lot of research on him. We also did a lot of work on him back when he came out in the draft. He’s a young defensive lineman who’s been productive.”All I can do with this topic is speculate, but I think its a fair conclusion. You can continue to minimize all you want GT. Please dont interpret this thread as anything more than speculation, it is not intended to be fact, just opinion.I do think that your  blind faith in virtually every administration/ the FO over the past few years is admirable...just not realistic.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      The problem with saying, see they play in another scheme is that a lot of guys are scheme specific. You could have a 34 team not think much of David. Banks might work in another scheme but he won’t work here. You can say build a scheme to fit guys but we have such a hodgepodge of players what scheme is there?That said we have a bunch of dudes up the middle like Barron, Foster and Goldson who can't cover at all. That is problematic in any scheme. Banks is awful but somehow has been elevated for his fairly mediocre play last year. I guess mediocre is better than awful. When you have that level of problem I don't really care to build a scheme, if possible, to accommodate.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

      The problem with saying, see they play in another scheme is that a lot of guys are scheme specific. You could have a 34 team not think much of David. Banks might work in another scheme but he won't work here. You can say build a scheme to fit guys but we have such a hodgepodge of players what scheme is there?That said we have a bunch of dudes up the middle like Barron, Foster and Goldson who can't cover at all. That is problematic in any scheme. Banks is awful but somehow has been elevated for his fairly mediocre play last year. I guess mediocre is better than awful. When you have that level of problem I don't really care to build a scheme, if possible, to accommodate.

      I think the awful evaluation on Banks is a little too harsh. Hes a young guy who has had some inconsistent play. I know he stood up last year against a healthy Calvin Johnson. Giving up on him this early would be foolsih, IMO. I get the coverage piece. I dont really care about Goldson he sucks in general and I understand the Barron problems. But believe he is on an island most of the time, while he should be more of a box player. It is not his fault Schiano drafted him so high. He should be a solid situational player.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      Barron is ok if you Kam Chancellor with him but the problem is he is our “coverage” safety. That’s not good. Banks has been horrid this year. I think he is the lowest rated CB in the league. He was ok last year but nothing great. He is the sort of element that if you want to build a scheme he doesn't stop you from building. A guy like GMC does stop a scheme change - he is utterly wasted in a 2 gap scheme for example. I think that is e only thing I see is that the best parts of this roster fit the scheme and it is the worst parts that utterly don't.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1498

      A few things I think are pertinent.Schiano didn't build a scheme around his talent, he ran his scheme.  Wright isn't flourishing, he has 10 catches in 6 games.  When considering banks, do some research on a guy named charles Tillman.Did lovie have personnel control in Chicago?We got a lot of issues, but at least be honest or informed.

      I'll debate this a bit.I vividly remember a post season interview Schiano did with booger and Steve White. They grilled him on the stunts of course. He expressed that his desire was to simply rush the front 4. But after evaluating the talent realized he could never get pressure that way. So he installed the stunts to stop the run and added the run blitz to put pressure on the QB. It was a great interview, very candid. He was candid enough to throw our DE's under the bus, which was justified.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

      Barron is ok if you Kam Chancellor with him but the problem is he is our "coverage" safety. That's not good. Banks has been horrid this year. I think he is the lowest rated CB in the league. He was ok last year but nothing great. He is the sort of element that if you want to build a scheme he doesn't stop you from building. A guy like GMC does stop a scheme change - he is utterly wasted in a 2 gap scheme for example. I think that is e only thing I see is that the best parts of this roster fit the scheme and it is the worst parts that utterly don't.

      Ya I guess. But I think I am looking at the bigger picture vs. just Banks specifically. How many coaches do we go through before somebody says ok lets adapt to the roster, and not just do what I do no matter what. Again, Banks has looked bad this year. I think he is better in a man to man scheme like he was put in last year. That being said, I think he is the best corner we have right now, which is sad.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      The thing is the problem here isn’t even the scheme. No the players aren’t the best fit but having 28 point dropped on you in the first quarter isn’t a scheme problem. Plenty of teams are zone teams, plenty of teams are one gap fronts. What we do isn’t that odd and certainly not so odd that we should be this bad. What is odd is that our coaches can't seem to get the players to do what they should. When you see multiple call outs from people who played in this defense weekly talking about player X not in a gap or player Z not getting depth on a drop or not rotating in coverage and so forth you see the problem is that our coaches can't get through to players some fairly simple concepts. I mean in a zone getting to your landmarks isn't rocket science.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      No the players aren't the best fit but having 28 point dropped on you in the first quarter isn't a scheme problem.

      That's an effort and pride problem.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      I don’t think it’s rocket science, but I also don’t think its something that is always picked up in a single offseason. Especially when guys like crezdon weren’t even here.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

      The thing is the problem here isn't even the scheme. No the players aren't the best fit but having 28 point dropped on you in the first quarter isn't a scheme problem. Plenty of teams are zone teams, plenty of teams are one gap fronts. What we do isn't that odd and certainly not so odd that we should be this bad. What is odd is that our coaches can't seem to get the players to do what they should. When you see multiple call outs from people who played in this defense weekly talking about player X not in a gap or player Z not getting depth on a drop or not rotating in coverage and so forth you see the problem is that our coaches can't get through to players some fairly simple concepts. I mean in a zone getting to your landmarks isn't rocket science.

      Agreed. It shouldnt get that bad even if the scheme is ineffective. But I think that is the root of our problems. These teams know we are pitching zone defense, with no pressure, they dial up their zone beaters for a couple of series, when cant sustain an offensive drive until late in the second qtr, next thing you know its 21-0. I am sure that is disheartening for these players and seems insurmountable. That goes back to the attitude problem, and the pride problem. They are professionals, it is certainly time to sack up. But i think the root of the issue here really lies in this soft defense. They are just playing pitch and catch out there.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

      Additionally, how about trying to take the ball when we win the toss? Why not just give it a try? I think we all know what is going to happen when we win the toss and put our defense out there. They are going to get shredded and fall into the here we go again mentality. Giving the other team the ball and hoping for a turnover seems foolish. As does hoping they can stop guys like Flacco/Ryan/Brees/Austin Davis/Anderson with this putrid defense.

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

        “How many coaches do we go through before somebody says ok lets adapt to the roster, and not just do what I do no matter what.”As many coaches as it takes until you happen onto one whose scheme fits your personnel. Or, you could go with the radical concept of actually selecting the coach with scheme in mind. Coaches are specialists, they are not equally adept at all schemes. If your personnel do not fit the coaching scheme, you either change the personnel or change the coaches, but you cannot reasonably expect the coaches to teach schemes they do not specialize in and still be good at it. They would be better off feigning heart complications and then seeking employment somewhere else that actually runs the scheme they specialize in.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 943

        "How many coaches do we go through before somebody says ok lets adapt to the roster, and not just do what I do no matter what."As many coaches as it takes until you happen onto one whose scheme fits your personnel. Or, you could go with the radical concept of actually selecting the coach with scheme in mind. Coaches are specialists, they are not equally adept at all schemes. If your personnel do not fit the coaching scheme, you either change the personnel or change the coaches, but you cannot reasonably expect the coaches to teach schemes they do not specialize in and still be good at it. They would be better off feigning heart complications then seeking employment somewhere else that actually runs the scheme they specialize in.

      A good football coach adapts. Just like in life a successful person adapts. That is the way the world works. Albert Einstein's definition of insanity:"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3027

      I was the only person here who didn’t like Lovie. My concerns have rang more true than not. It’s to late, he’s here and he better be here for the term of his contract. We can no longer change coaches, schemes and overhaul this team. We need stability for player evaluation, we need stability for the players, coaches and fans. Like it or not, Lovie has to stay, he just has to. We can’t continue to turn over the coaches, we’ll never be anything if we do.

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

      “A good football coach adapts.”What does that have to do with the Bucs? Enough mental forays into fantasyland, we need real world solutions.And Einstein never said that.

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

        “I was the only person here who didn’t like Lovie.” That smoke you're smelling is due to your pants being on fire.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      I would argue that Barron, Goldshon and Foster were not really a good fit for Schiano’s scheme either.  It is a passing league and if you can’t stop the pass you lose the majority of the time.Banks poor play is an example of how far down this team has gone the hole because he needed to step up not regress massively. 

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    • dzejms

      Participant
      Post count: 981

      The problem with saying, see they play in another scheme is that a lot of guys are scheme specific. You could have a 34 team not think much of David. Banks might work in another scheme but he won't work here. You can say build a scheme to fit guys but we have such a hodgepodge of players what scheme is there?That said we have a bunch of dudes up the middle like Barron, Foster and Goldson who can't cover at all. That is problematic in any scheme. Banks is awful but somehow has been elevated for his fairly mediocre play last year. I guess mediocre is better than awful. When you have that level of problem I don't really care to build a scheme, if possible, to accommodate.

      I think the awful evaluation on Banks is a little too harsh. Hes a young guy who has had some inconsistent play. I know he stood up last year against a healthy Calvin Johnson. Giving up on him this early would be foolsih, IMO. I get the coverage piece. I dont really care about Goldson he sucks in general and I understand the Barron problems. But believe he is on an island most of the time, while he should be more of a box player. It is not his fault Schiano drafted him so high. He should be a solid situational player.

      I agree with this.  I actually kind of like Banks.  I think he will be fine if Lovie has the brains to use him properly. 

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3027

        "I was the only person here who didn't like Lovie." That smoke you're smelling is due to your pants being on fire.

      Lol, this forum was laughable all summer with people falling all over Lovie and his record and his superbowl and blah blah blah. We then hired a rookie GM who would be Lovie's lap dog and not an advisor or an equal player and we're surprised by how bad this team looks? This team is exactly what Lovie wanted. It's too late, he stays for the long haul now.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1520

      Banks and the rest of the secondary will be fine if we upgrade our line. They’ll never be Ronde, BK, Lynch and Jackson, but we don’t need them to be. Lovie and Licht tried to fix the most important areas of the team by bringing in Collins, EDS, Johnson and McDonald, so I'll give them credit for that. They just failed. I don't care how many picks/signings it takes, we need to keep trying until we get it right. I wouldn't be upset if they used our entire draft on both lines, maybe throw in a LB and a punter late.

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

      Agreed. But you were far from the only poster here questioning the decision to bring in Lovie without even looking elsewhere, in spite of your penchant for self aggrandizement.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Agreed. But you were far from the only poster here questioning the decision to bring in Lovie without even looking elsewhere, in spite of your penchant for self aggrandizement.

      hes another one of those tools I warned you about but it looks like you already figured it out.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Banks and the rest of the secondary will be fine if we upgrade our line. They'll never be Ronde, BK, Lynch and Jackson, but we don't need them to be. Lovie and Licht tried to fix the most important areas of the team by bringing in Collins, EDS, Johnson and McDonald, so I'll give them credit for that. They just failed. I don't care how many picks/signings it takes, we need to keep trying until we get it right. I wouldn't be upset if they used our entire draft on both lines, maybe throw in a LB and a punter late.

      agree with most of this. Im not ready to call our past offseason a failure yet.  But its not currently pretty

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Seriously GT, what will it take for you to admit it was a failure?

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

      Agreed. But you were far from the only poster here questioning the decision to bring in Lovie without even looking elsewhere, in spite of your penchant for self aggrandizement.

      hes another one of those tools I warned you about but it looks like you already figured it out.

      His sig is a fictitious quote promoting himself. Some things are easy to figure out.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8983

      Why do we need lovie to stay for personnel decisions/continuity reasons?THIS is what you want to continue? THIS is whom we let make player moves?Lovie hires wimpy players. It's obvious now that he put together a rag-tag group of failures here in tampa. Then, you look at the guys he brought into the bears when he had to restock. Gaines? Really?So then, why should I trust him? Why should I spend money on tickets to see more bad qb play and horrid defense? Explain to me  lovie needs to be given any more time.We can't even be happy IF he drafted mariota or jw, because who is going to run that offense, lovie? Some crumbum he hires? ..I mean, tedford was a success, right? Arroyo is balling in tedford's system, right?Leslie has done a bang up job too, right?Man, I had a lot of faith in lovie going into the season, but he's been making dom and rah look like geniuses.Would you still take your car to get fixed at a dealership if they break it even more while working on it? Nope, the trust is gone.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Seriously GT, what will it take for you to admit it was a failure?

      2 years. And an oc calling plays.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1166

      Seriously GT, what will it take for you to admit it was a failure?

      2 years. And an oc calling plays.

      I just don't understand that "if" they knew Tedford was going to be out for the year, why didn't they find someone to replace him?  It will be very telling when next year rolls around and Tedford wants to "pursue other opportunities"   

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 8044

      Seriously GT, what will it take for you to admit it was a failure?

      2 years. And an oc calling plays.

      I just don't understand that "if" they knew Tedford was going to be out for the year, why didn't they find someone to replace him?  It will be very telling when next year rolls around and Tedford wants to "pursue other opportunities" 

      you need someone who knows the plays and terminology. Not many choices week 1 after Arroyo

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4057

      My question isn’t why Arroyo is still the OC. I get that terminology, system knowledge you cant bring in a “real” guy and ask him to use someone else’s system and there is no time to learn a new one.My question is why haven't we brought in a new QB coach since that role can help with non-system things like mechanics, footwork and so forth. Arroyo doing the OC bit is a lot on a guy who has never done it but it is even worse that he has two jobs.

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    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 642

      My question isn't why Arroyo is still the OC. I get that terminology, system knowledge you cant bring in a "real" guy and ask him to use someone else's system and there is no time to learn a new one.My question is why haven't we brought in a new QB coach since that role can help with non-system things like mechanics, footwork and so forth. Arroyo doing the OC bit is a lot on a guy who has never done it but it is even worse that he has two jobs.

      Seems like McCown has been backfilling there after the thumb injury.  Maybe that's a better option for right now.I've been slow to judge Arroyo as OC given the circumstances.  Lovie's prints have been all over this offense.

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    • GARCIAFAN

      Participant
      Post count: 1002

        "How many coaches do we go through before somebody says ok lets adapt to the roster, and not just do what I do no matter what."As many coaches as it takes until you happen onto one whose scheme fits your personnel. Or, you could go with the radical concept of actually selecting the coach with scheme in mind. Coaches are specialists, they are not equally adept at all schemes. If your personnel do not fit the coaching scheme, you either change the personnel or change the coaches, but you cannot reasonably expect the coaches to teach schemes they do not specialize in and still be good at it. They would be better off feigning heart complications then seeking employment somewhere else that actually runs the scheme they specialize in.

      A good football coach adapts. Just like in life a successful person adapts. That is the way the world works. Albert Einstein's definition of insanity:"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

      So, how's that workin' out?

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