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    • jbear

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      Post count: 3562

      https://greenwald.substack.com/p/violence-in-the-capitol-dangers-in-67f?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxODkxOTUyOCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MzExMzMyOTEsIl8iOiI4bFMxaiIsImlhdCI6MTYxMDA1MjkzNywiZXhwIjoxNjEwMDU2NTM3LCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMTI4NjYyIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.nFS3XIVyp9qfmuWVVks9gmbTYzuJ5LNwGODLgkHc94Y

      I wish everyone would spend the time to read the entire thing but I’m not going to post every word to make sure. Just some highlights.

      It is therefore not hard to understand why watching a marauding band of hooligans invade and deface both the House and the Senate, without any identifiable objective other than venting grievances, reflexively engenders a patriotic disgust across the political spectrum.

      It is unhinged to the point of being obscene to compare yesterday’s incursion to the 9/11 attack or (as Sen. Chuck Schumer did last night) to Pearl Harbor.

      There are other, more important historical lessons to draw not only from the 9/11 attack but subsequent terrorism on U.S. soil. One is the importance of resisting the coercive framework that demands everyone choose one of two extremes: that the incident is either (a) insignificant or even justifiable, or (b) is an earth-shattering, radically transformative event that demands radical, transformative state responses.
      This reductive, binary framework is anti-intellectual and dangerous. One can condemn a particular act while resisting the attempt to inflate the dangers it poses. One can acknowledge the very real existence of a threat while also warning of the harms, often far greater, from proposed solutions. One can reject maximalist, inflammatory rhetoric about an attack (a War of Civilizations, an attempted coup, an insurrection, sedition) without being fairly accused of indifference toward or sympathy for the attackers.

      My insistence that we look at the other side of the ledger — the costs and dangers not only from such attacks but also the “solutions” implemented in the name of the stopping them — did not come from indifference towards those deaths or a naive views of those responsible for them. It was instead driven by my simultaneous recognition of the dangers from rights-eroding, authoritarian reactions imposed by the state, particularly in the immediate aftermath of a traumatic event. One need not engage in denialism or minimization of a threat to rationally resist fear-driven fanaticism — as Barbara Lee so eloquently insisted on September 14, 2001.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      It is stunning to watch now as every War on Terror rhetorical tactic to justify civil liberties erosions is now being invoked in the name of combatting Trumpism, including the aggressive exploitation of the emotions triggered by yesterday’s events at the Capitol to accelerate their implementation and demonize dissent over the quickly formed consensus. The same framework used to assault civil liberties in the name of foreign terrorism is now being seamlessly applied — often by those who spent the last two decades objecting to it — to the threat posed by “domestic white supremacist terrorists,” the term preferred by liberal elites, especially after yesterday, for Trump supporters generally. In so many ways, yesterday was the liberals’ 9/11, as even the most sensible commentators among them are resorting to the most unhinged rhetoric available.

      Within hours of the Capitol being cleared, we heard truly radical proposals from numerous members of Congress. Senators and House members who objected to Electoral College certification, or questioned its legitimacy, should be formally accused of sedition and removed from expelled from the House if not prosecuted, argued Rep. Cori Bush (D-MO), with other House members expressing support. Even those unarmed protesters who peacefully entered the Capitol should, many argued, be hunted by the FBI as domestic terrorists.
      Calls proliferated for the banning of the social media accounts of instigators and protest participants. Journalists and politicians cheered the decision by Facebook and Twitter to temporarily bar the President from using their service, and then cheered again when Facebook’s CEO Mark Zuckerberg announced on Tuesday that the ban on Trump extended through Biden’s inauguration. Some journalists, such as CNN’s Oliver Darcy, complained that Facebook had not gone far enough, that more mass censorship was needed of right-wing voices. The once-radical 2006 Gingrich argument — that some opinions are too dangerous to allow to be expressed because they are pro-terrorist and insurrectionary — is now thriving, close to a consensus.

      These calls for censorship, online and official, are grounded in the long-discredited, oft-rejected and dangerous view that a person should be held legally accountable not only for their own illegal actions but also for the consequences of their protected speech: meaning the actions others take when they hear inflammatory rhetoric. That was the distorted mentality used by the State of Mississippi in the 1970s to try to hold NAACP leaders liable for the violent acts of their followers against boycott violators after hearing rousing pro-boycott speeches from NAACP leaders, only for the Supreme Court in 1982 to unanimously reject such efforts on the ground that “while the State legitimately may impose damages for the consequences of violent conduct, it may not award compensation for the consequences of nonviolent, protected activity,” adding that even “advocacy of the use of force or violence does not remove speech from the protection of the first amendment.”
      The complete reversal in mentality from just a few months ago is dizzying. Those who spent the summer demanding the police be defunded are furious that the police response at the Capitol was insufficiently robust, violent and aggressive. Those who urged the abolition of prisons are demanding Trump supporters be imprisoned for years. Those who, under the banner of “anti-fascism,” demanded the firing of a top New York Times editor for publishing an op-ed by Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AK) advocating the deployment of the U.S. military to quell riots — a view deemed not just wrong but unspeakable in decent society — are today furious that the National Guard was not deployed at the Capitol to quash pro-Trump supporters. Antifa advocates are working to expose the names of Capitol protesters to empower the FBI to arrest them on terrorism charges. And while Rep. Cori Bush’s proposal to unseat members of Congress for their subversive views went mega-viral, many forget that in 1966, the Georgia State Legislature refused to seat Julian Bond after he refused to repudiate his anti-war work with the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, then considered a domestic terrorist group.
      Those who argued in the summer that property damage is meaningless or even noble are treating smashed windows and looted podiums at the Capitol as treason, as a coup. One need not dismiss the lamentable actions of yesterday to simultaneously reject efforts to apply terms that are plainly inapplicable: attempted coup, insurrection, sedition. There was zero chance that the few hundred people who breached the Capitol could overthrow the U.S. Government — the most powerful, armed and militarized entity in the world — nor did they try.

      Maybe I’m Glen Greenwald? Or maybe Glen Greenwald is secretly a Trumper…. A Republican?

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 5715

      Suck on that libtards!

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      Suck on that libtards!

      I know you hate me which is why neither of you can ever give an inch on anything. Verge simply will not ever engage on any topic unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      If you would take the time to read the entire article I think you would find a very thoughtful piece that takes a crack at breaking through some of those prejudices that we all have. You simply have to look yourself in the mirror and be honest. We all do.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      a laughing almost every time I post

      b) theres nothing to feel, you give everyone the upper hand

      c) I jokingly call you a Trumper because YOU VOTED for him and share almost all his core beliefs BUT still dont like the title. Get in a long line dummy. Thats the very nature of Trumpism and the reason he had a thing called “shy Trumpers.” Most of you are too freaking embarrassed to live up to/own his action his actions.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      JBear — these Grenwald posts are good example of you giving everyone the upper hand. YOur defense of his intentionally provocative positions is “Pulitzer prize” so I poinyted out another Pulitzer prize winner, Seymour hersch, who did great work but then alos became a complete KOOK

      1. You ignored that thread or part of a thread

      2, YOu decried the overreach of a federal HATE CRIME but dont care about federal unmarked police in Oregon (police is the classic states right issue)

      3. you decried the overreach of the federal hate crime, but then ignore an actual, topical case (Arbery) where federal involvement prevented a GRAVE INJUSTICE

      Its your choice to avoid topics that you dont like or that dont mesh with your views, but its my right to then compare you to every other Trumper living in a cocoon who has this core set of beliefs that are connected and protected from inconvenient truth

      4. you openly agree with and actually parrot many of the views of Chron . . but dont want to be compared to Chron THE QUINTESSENTIAL BRAIN DEAD TRUMPER

      5. you EMBRACE all the Hunter Biden stuff, ignore Guiliani just blowing up as a total clown

      6. you EMBRACE all the Hunter Biden stuff and then just morph the claim over and over (the purest suing that your beliefs are not genuine and actually the classic “orange man bad: just converted to “old man bad”

      7. YOU VOTED FOR TRUMP . . but then repeatedly distance yourself from every bad act . . . because a pants suit makes you mad. Buy one yourself. :-)

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      I’ve said this in another thread but because I know you and verge are so sure you have me pegged on everything you don’t bother to try to understand anything I’m saying.

      I do not support Trump. This may be the best thing that’s happened over the last four years for any person who really cares about my kind of politics. That’s fiscal conservatives who are for individual liberty and believe in the constitution. That’s because the best thing for that viewpoint right now is for Trump to be completely discredited. I was not pleased with the idea of him exerting control over the party for the next four years. I’m for his outright removal at this point. I’m for any action that will discredit him but being that his supporters are a little deranged, I’m not sure what actually does that. Is it better to remove him now or will that create more problems.

      This is not an about face. I’ve been saying this since he lost the election. You know that I voted for him as a lesser of two evils. Yes he is even more dangerous that I believed but I think that’s mostly because he’s obviously a lot dumber than I thought he was and at this point, seems to have some sort of mental illness which was always apparent but seemed less dangerous than it turned out to be. At this point it’s clear that he likely believes all this stuff he’s peddling. Look, he’s really taken a nose dive since the election. He’s a megolomanic of an order that gets people put in padded rooms. I hope this is a lesson for every voter for all time, I truly do. But that lesson is not R bad D good. It’s not look how demented all the hick morons are and it’s not that we need to hunt down all the inbreds who agree with Trump on anything. The lesson is that we need to pay more attention to the mental stability of anyone who we elect President.

      I hope the true Trumpers accept that and come back to the process with that in mind.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      a laughing almost every time I post

      b) theres nothing to feel, you give everyone the upper hand

      c) I jokingly call you a Trumper because YOU VOTED for him and share almost all his core beliefs BUT still dont like the title. Get in a long line dummy. Thats the very nature of Trumpism and the reason he had a thing called “shy Trumpers.” Most of you are too freaking embarrassed to live up to/own his action his actions.

      This is not how you apologize Verge.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      You know that I voted for him as a lesser of two evils.

      this makes you an insane Trumper, especially when you use “we” in this sentence

      The lesson is that we need to pay more attention to the mental stability of anyone who we elect President

      some of us, MANY of us, count mental stability as an absolutely essential requirment ALWAYS and Trump had a HUGE . . . huge . . record of lacking mental stability BEFORE 2016 (eg BIRTHER) and he just sent 4 years displaying that he was an absolute NUTBAG

      your vote for him was in 2020 and it was because you believe TOTALLY BULSHIT ARCH CONSERVATIVE nonsense that AOC controls Biden lmao

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      You know that I voted for him as a lesser of two evils.

      this makes you an insane Trumper, especially when you use “we” in this sentence

      The lesson is that we need to pay more attention to the mental stability of anyone who we elect President

      some of us, MANY of us, count mental stability as an absolutely essential requirment ALWAYS and Trump had a HUGE . . . huge . . record of lacking mental stability BEFORE 2016 (eg BIRTHER) and he just sent 4 years displaying that he was an absolute NUTBAG

      your vote for him was in 2020 and it was because you believe TOTALLY BULSHIT ARCH CONSERVATIVE nonsense that AOC controls Biden lmao

      as I said, you just hand it to everyone

      unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      a laughing almost every time I post

      b) theres nothing to feel, you give everyone the upper hand

      c) I jokingly call you a Trumper because YOU VOTED for him and share almost all his core beliefs BUT still dont like the title. Get in a long line dummy. Thats the very nature of Trumpism and the reason he had a thing called “shy Trumpers.” Most of you are too freaking embarrassed to live up to/own his action his actions.

      This is not how you apologize Verge.

      fuck off

      does that work?

      :-)

      (KIDDING OBVIOUSLY I have not been following along enough to know what you’re asking me to apologize for? If I don’t something wrong I would apologize)

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      JBear — these Grenwald posts are good example of you giving everyone the upper hand. YOur defense of his intentionally provocative positions is “Pulitzer prize” so I poinyted out another Pulitzer prize winner, Seymour hersch, who did great work but then alos became a complete KOOK

      1. You ignored that thread or part of a thread

      You absolutely suck at this. So Greenwald is a KOOK because in your view Hersch turned into one? That’s dumb. Seriously, I’m not putting words in your mouth or misunderstanding the words you’ve used. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? dickhead

      A Republican ought to be able to read the article without having convulsions but you clearly still haven’t bothered to actually get through it because any moderately intelligent person who actually did read it would not be trying to imply that Glen Greenwald is a Kook. It couldn’t be any more reasonable. You don’t have to agree with it but your big response is to point out another failed point that you made a few weeks ago where you tried to imply that Greenwald is nuts.

      I’m going to delete the rest of the “points” you made that I was about to respond to because this is too important.

      You need to explain to me what the *%$# you are trying to say.

      Edit: My defense of his provocative position came before he wrote the fuggin article because it’s my position ding dong. At least in pretty large part. Do you not recall me saying largely the same things in another thread? He obviously says it better and he got farther into the repercussions but my views on this shit are clear enough even you should admit that I’ve agreed with these positions in the past.

      You are a lot like Trump. A mentally ill, certainly deranged megalomaniac with a tiny penis. Too close to home?

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      You know that I voted for him as a lesser of two evils.

      this makes you an insane Trumper, especially when you use “we” in this sentence

      The lesson is that we need to pay more attention to the mental stability of anyone who we elect President

      some of us, MANY of us, count mental stability as an absolutely essential requirment ALWAYS and Trump had a HUGE . . . huge . . record of lacking mental stability BEFORE 2016 (eg BIRTHER) and he just sent 4 years displaying that he was an absolute NUTBAG

      your vote for him was in 2020 and it was because you believe TOTALLY BULSHIT ARCH CONSERVATIVE nonsense that AOC controls Biden lmao

      We’re about to see aren’t we. Are you willing to bet that I won’t have plenty to complain about because I’ll give you great odds if you’ll take that bet. lol

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      uck off

      does that work?

      :-)

      (KIDDING OBVIOUSLY I have not been following along enough to know what you’re asking me to apologize for? If I don’t something wrong I would apologize)

      pfffft! You’re ridiculous.

      I think you ought to have an idea that you’re a dick to everyone…. that should count as one. I don’t think it will be hard to come up with a more comprehensive list.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 5715

      Suck on that libtards!

      I know you hate me which is why neither of you can ever give an inch on anything. Verge simply will not ever engage on any topic unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      If you would take the time to read the entire article I think you would find a very thoughtful piece that takes a crack at breaking through some of those prejudices that we all have. You simply have to look yourself in the mirror and be honest. We all do.

      I can never give an inch?

      Says the guy voting for Trump, shrugging off his coup attempt, and refusing to admit he’s wrong.

      Comedic brilliance or overt narcissism? Can’t tell…

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562

      Suck on that libtards!

      I know you hate me which is why neither of you can ever give an inch on anything. Verge simply will not ever engage on any topic unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      If you would take the time to read the entire article I think you would find a very thoughtful piece that takes a crack at breaking through some of those prejudices that we all have. You simply have to look yourself in the mirror and be honest. We all do.

      I can never give an inch?

      Says the guy voting for Trump, shrugging off his coup attempt, and refusing to admit he’s wrong.

      Comedic brilliance or overt narcissism? Can’t tell…

      All I’m “shrugging off” is you and Democrats trying to dehumanize the human beings who got carried away in the moment during an intense situation. I’ve said if you want to put it on Trump I’m in agreement. But the left is trying to make all these people into knights of the KKK. Saying they attempted a military insurrection but just until curfew with no weapons or plans other than to post cool selfies on social media.

      It’s the rhetoric, the hatred, the nastiness and the hypocrisy that I have a problem with.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 5715

      Cmon man… stop with the “but”.

      You almost had it in this thread.

      I underestimated that Trump is unfit for office.

      O regret voting for him.

      I recognize the dangers of disinformation, conspiracy theories, QANON, etc.

      These MAGA supporters are more dangerous and bigger than I realized. Far more dangerous than ANTIFA and 1000x larger.

      White supremacy is a huge threat to this country in the form of domestic terrorism.

      While I disagree with Democrats politically, in this instance they are on the right side of history.

      I now realize my mistakes…

    • Col. Klink

      Participant
      Post count: 182

      All I’m “shrugging off” is you and Democrats trying to dehumanize the human beings who got carried away in the moment during an intense situation.

      You’re not still saying that this was a spontaneous, heat of the moment assault, are you?

    • Roy

      Participant
      Post count: 3711

      Suck on that libtards!

      I know you hate me which is why neither of you can ever give an inch on anything. Verge simply will not ever engage on any topic unless he feels he has the clear upper hand which is why he mostly resorts to calling me a Trumper. Whats most sad is that he takes himself so seriously while ignoring every attempt at real dialog.

      If you would take the time to read the entire article I think you would find a very thoughtful piece that takes a crack at breaking through some of those prejudices that we all have. You simply have to look yourself in the mirror and be honest. We all do.

      I can never give an inch?

      Says the guy voting for Trump, shrugging off his coup attempt, and refusing to admit he’s wrong.

      Comedic brilliance or overt narcissism? Can’t tell…

      All I’m “shrugging off” is you and Democrats trying to dehumanize the human beings who got carried away in the moment during an intense situation. I’ve said if you want to put it on Trump I’m in agreement. But the left is trying to make all these people into knights of the KKK. Saying they attempted a military insurrection but just until curfew with no weapons or plans other than to post cool selfies on social media.

      It’s the rhetoric, the hatred, the nastiness and the hypocrisy that I have a problem with.

      So the on the floor of Congress with police issue zip ties was just a little over exhuberant?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      You absolutely suck at this. So Greenwald is a KOOK because in your view Hersch turned into one?

      you cant read as poorly as your replies suggest so I assume youre just being dishonest

      claiming “pulitzer prize” doesnt mean much

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      uck off

      does that work?

      :-)

      (KIDDING OBVIOUSLY I have not been following along enough to know what you’re asking me to apologize for? If I don’t something wrong I would apologize)

      pfffft! You’re ridiculous.

      I think you ought to have an idea that you’re a dick to everyone…. that should count as one. I don’t think it will be hard to come up with a more comprehensive list.

      good grief

      then fuck off stands

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3562