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    • Schwifty9

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      Ok so I just got finished watching Washington vs Oregon, and before that I watched Washington vs Washington State and Washington vs Boise State. Now the story I’d been told about Joe Tryon was that he struggled early in 2019 but really ramped things up in his final 6 games. Now I had watched the Washington state game before the draft and came aware very unimpressed and couldn’t believe this guy was being mocked to us in the 1st round.

      I’m here to say that I just don’t see it. Yeah I saw a few of those false steps Jon was talking about, but Jon really went out of his way to spin that Oregon tape into a positive. That rep he showed against Sewell was pretty much the lone rep where he did anything but get stonewalled by the him… The guy doesn’t have a great off, doesn’t have great flexibility and bend or speed around the edge, doesn’t have great shock in his hands, he doesn’t have a developed set of pass rush moves, he gets pushed around in the run game, but he doesn’t shy away from contact, once every 15 or so snaps he’ll “win” with hustle and effort but rarely ever wins with skill and even more rarely does he get close to the QB when he does “win” a rep with hustle and effort. He actually does look like a pretty fluid athlete dropping in to coverage.

      And I don’t know about you but if the best thing I can find to say about a pass rusher is that he looks like a decent athlete when he drops into coverage, there’s something wrong with that. And it certainly doesn’t suggest to me a guy is worthy of a first round pick.

      On the other hand, as I’m watching through these snaps trying to focus on Tryon and being bored to tears, more and more I start to notice #95, Onwuzurike, wreaking havoc and getting penetration damn near every other play. This guy was winning primarily with quickness, off of nasty club rips and swim moves and would also occasionally bull rushing guards and centers into the QB’s lap. Now he wasn’t winning every rep but he was damn sure flashing more than Tryon was and it wasn’t even close.

      The only thing In my mind that could have led to Joe Tryon actually being above Onwuzurike on Lichts board is that Licht saw Tryon without a shirt and got goo goo eyes for his muscles. Then when he tested well at his pro day that sealed the deal. Because there is no way in my mind that this decision could have been made based of tape. We could have even traded down to get Onwuzurike! And with all of our interior D-lineman besides Vea being old grizzled vets, adding another young DT would have been a smart move. Not saying we didn’t need more depth at edge, we did, but I don’t like the one we took just because he’s a pretty good athlete with nice muscles who MIGHT be pretty good in 2-3 years when we are trying to win another Super Bowl NOW!

      Still have all the faith in the world that our Bucs are going to become back to back world champs, but man these 2 1st picks just don’t make any sense to me.

      I understand that Licht and co. just won the SB, but that doesn’t mean he can no longer make any mistakes. And I think he made 2 big mistakes in this years draft… Go Bucs.

    • buc-in-out

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      Post count: 446

      Onwuzurike doesn’t fit our system. Its why Bowles decided to get rid of McCoy for Suh. I love Onwuzurike, I think he’s going to be a rock solid pick for the Lions, but he needs to be in the right system, and that’s not the 2-gapping 3-4 scheme we run.

      Washington used Onwuzurike in the 0 gap quite often and he got abused.

    • Schwifty9

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      Post count: 85

      There is absolutely a place for a 3tech in Bowles scheme, that’s essentially the role Suh plays. Onwuzurike wouldn’t have been as good against the run as Suh is right away or probably ever, but he would have been a good rotational piece to have on passing downs and as a developmental piece down the road. We already have a good rotation of Nose tackles and if Vea can stay healthy he’s probably the best one in the league.

      I’d argue from what I saw that Onwuzurike would have made more of an impact for us an interior pass rusher this year than Tryon will at OLB.

    • Alldaway 2.0

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      Post count: 4678

      Edge rushers are always valued more than 3 techs. This is because a 3 tech is easier to neutralize. Harder to neutralize an edge rusher.

      Onwurike would have been a great fit for the Bucs scheme but Tryon is the better value while having his own upside.

      Lets be clear…Tryon is a bigger project between the two but Tryon also has freakish measurable while having some planning with how he rushes using strategy and understanding what the offense is doing. So, Tryon needs work but he isn’t that raw IMO.

      Build the trenches!

    • Barnz1

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      Post count: 334

      The only DT that matched up talent wise at pick 32 was Barmore. But apparently there is coaching issues there. Not convinced by that because Sapp is not a good evaluator and the Pats seemed happy to trade up and take him.

      But not taking one of the later valued DT’s for depth was a headscratcher for me. It wasn’t a good DT class for sure but Daviyon Nixon, Tyler Shelvin, Marvin Wilson and co are better players than Nacho and our other depth options.

    • Schwifty9

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      Post count: 85

      I would argue that a productive 3tech is more valuable than a mediocre/below average Edge. And an elite 3 tech can be just as if not more valuable than an Edge. After all, Aaron Donald is a 3 tech and is considered the best player in the NFL.

      Now, in no way shape or form am I comparing Onwuzurike to Aaron Donald, just saying the precedence for value at the position is there.

      @Barnz

      I agree, 32 would have been a little rich for Onwuzurike that’s why I said we could have traded down for him, but needless to say I also feel it was more than a little rich for Tryon so if we took him there why not take a guy who looks much better of film?

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        Don’t talk yourself into a corner thinking that Onwuzurkie has elite potential. Most people can name 5 top edge rushers easily while naming the top 5 3 techs in 2021 is much harder. Partly because most teams rely on stand up rushers for pressure and sacks now.

        NFL game has evolved because of that.

        Build the trenches!

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        @alldaway

        Wasn’t trying to suggest that Onwuzurike has elite potential. Just that based on what I saw he is clearly a better player than Tryon is right now and would have made a bigger impact for us than I expect Tryon to.

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        Ojulari is a better player right now than Tryon. But teams draft players in the first round for higher upside.

        I think you are over estimating Onwuzurkie’s upside. He failed to go in the first round in a weak DT class and his main competition which is the more talented Barmore was radioactive to 31 NFL teams.

        Build the trenches!

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        I don’t think I am overestimating Onwuzurike. I’ve made it clear several times now that if we had gone that route we could have and should have traded down to get him.

        I am however questioning the upside that everyone mentions when discussing/justifying the Tryon pick. He did test well athletically, but I have seen plenty of guys come and go through many years of watching the combine that tested incredibly well, but looked unimpressive on the field, and turned out to be either busts or nothing special role players/special teamers in the NFL. And I have seen guys that looked awesome on tape but didn’t have great combines, Orlando Brown Jr. probably being the ultimate extreme, that turned out to be pretty damn good players in the NFL Because they were good at football at the highest level.

        Tryon has the body of a super hero*, and has a high athletic ceiling and could potentially be coached up, but I haven’t seen him demonstrate anything to this point that shows me he’s very good at all at playing football.

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        Tryon has upside because his athletic gifts is what you see in the top 15. Because of COVID the Bucs had a shot at a potential top 15 player at 32.

        I would never be down on a team that nabs a great value and bargain.

        Trask selection is the polar opposite but it is what it is.

        Build the trenches!

    • SOXX

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      Post count: 48

      They blew it, Barmore should of been the pick. The GM said he had OLB targeted all along they made the pick too fast you need to look at the whole board.

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        People hating on Sapp but he is right. The kid needs discipline and that is often too much work for a team to untangle. Patriots and BB believe in doing your job and the Patriot way. In other words the kid is going to sink or swim fast.

        Build the trenches!

    • TB-BucFan4Life

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      Post count: 481

      Ok so I just got finished watching Washington vs Oregon, and before that I watched Washington vs Washington State and Washington vs Boise State. Now the story I’d been told about Joe Tryon was that he struggled early in 2019 but really ramped things up in his final 6 games. Now I had watched the Washington state game before the draft and came aware very unimpressed and couldn’t believe this guy was being mocked to us in the 1st round.

      I’m here to say that I just don’t see it. Yeah I saw a few of those false steps Jon was talking about, but Jon really went out of his way to spin that Oregon tape into a positive. That rep he showed against Sewell was pretty much the lone rep where he did anything but get stonewalled by the him… The guy doesn’t have a great off, doesn’t have great flexibility and bend or speed around the edge, doesn’t have great shock in his hands, he doesn’t have a developed set of pass rush moves, he gets pushed around in the run game, but he doesn’t shy away from contact, once every 15 or so snaps he’ll “win” with hustle and effort but rarely ever wins with skill and even more rarely does he get close to the QB when he does “win” a rep with hustle and effort. He actually does look like a pretty fluid athlete dropping in to coverage.

      And I don’t know about you but if the best thing I can find to say about a pass rusher is that he looks like a decent athlete when he drops into coverage, there’s something wrong with that. And it certainly doesn’t suggest to me a guy is worthy of a first round pick.

      On the other hand, as I’m watching through these snaps trying to focus on Tryon and being bored to tears, more and more I start to notice #95, Onwuzurike, wreaking havoc and getting penetration damn near every other play. This guy was winning primarily with quickness, off of nasty club rips and swim moves and would also occasionally bull rushing guards and centers into the QB’s lap. Now he wasn’t winning every rep but he was damn sure flashing more than Tryon was and it wasn’t even close.

      The only thing In my mind that could have led to Joe Tryon actually being above Onwuzurike on Lichts board is that Licht saw Tryon without a shirt and got goo goo eyes for his muscles. Then when he tested well at his pro day that sealed the deal. Because there is no way in my mind that this decision could have been made based of tape. We could have even traded down to get Onwuzurike! And with all of our interior D-lineman besides Vea being old grizzled vets, adding another young DT would have been a smart move. Not saying we didn’t need more depth at edge, we did, but I don’t like the one we took just because he’s a pretty good athlete with nice muscles who MIGHT be pretty good in 2-3 years when we are trying to win another Super Bowl NOW!

      Still have all the faith in the world that our Bucs are going to become back to back world champs, but man these 2 1st picks just don’t make any sense to me.

      I understand that Licht and co. just won the SB, but that doesn’t mean he can no longer make any mistakes. And I think he made 2 big mistakes in this years draft… Go Bucs.

      Yeah, Tryon looks like a depth and ST guy who should have been drafted in the 4th or 5th round. I see nothing impressive about this guy. We totally blew this 1st round pick.

    • Pennywise

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      Post count: 10082

      Per jbf
      Ian beckles on , Tryon

      Beckles emphasizes that he believes nothing is a greater waste of time than a mock draft.

      “Draft grades are equally stupid to me,” Beckles added.

      So Beckles began to break down his analysis of first-round pick Joe Tryon. Beckles likes what he sees and doesn’t expect Tryon to be the next Gaines Adams.

      “Once again, I don’t want to sit here and say I watched all the film,” Beckles began. “But, I did go and review some of his film. Not like a scout would do it. I just went to YouTube like everybody else would do it and pulled up a bunch of his film.”

      And Beckles admitted YouTube video of almost all players are highlights, which can be a bad trap.

      “So I can tell you this: I liked what I saw and I normally don’t like what I see,” Beckles said. Tryon is “a defensive end and he is very long, which is good. He plays with great leverage. He makes big plays. He ran a 4.6 [40-yard dash] which is pretty good.

      “He’s physical, OK? That is the word to me that is important in this game of football. When you see a defensive end or a defensive tackle running around people, I don’t want to see that. Because that is not going to happen in the league. You are not going to run around anybody in the league. You better run through somebody in the NFL.

      “And I remember when the Buccaneers drafted Gaines Adams and when they drafted Gerald McCoy. I did the same [filmwork] for those guys. Right away with Gaines Adams I go, ‘He don’t have no strength. And he don’t have any power.’

      “And what I said about Gerald McCoy, was what other people said as well, ‘Oh well, he has a great get-off but he doesn’t make many plays.’ Well dammit, that’s what he was in the league.

      “They never panned out.”

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        Well I don’t have very much respect for Ian Beckles as a talent evaluator. Sounds to me like he just watched a Joe Tryon highlight tape and based his opinion off that.

      • RascalBuc

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        Post count: 2

        I agree. Buckles is a poor talent evaluator. He was the biggest McCoy hater, but I bet McCoy would have eaten his lunch on the field. McCoy totally lived up to his draft status. This article shows that numbers don’t lie. If people look at the names on the pro bowl, sack other lists he’s a part of they’d recognize he was a great Buccaneer and he posted great numbers by himself. He played on terrible defenses and didn’t play along the same talent Warren Sapp had.

        https://www.panthers.com/news/five-statistics-to-know-about-gerald-mccoy

    • Pennywise

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      Post count: 10082

      So he is Wrong, JL is wrong , BA is wrong , Todd Bowles is wrong, but you’re right ?

      Ok got it

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        You say that like it’s 100% impossible. Teams make bad picks all the time.

    • BuccaNOLEer

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      Post count: 938

      Tryon is a lean and long prototypical pass rushing DE. I can easily see him becoming another Jason Taylor. The question is, is he athletic enough to drop into coverage?

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        You don’t even know the guys name or the position he plays but I’m supposed to listen to you? Tryon* is an outside linebacker, and to answer your question. He’s looks pretty good dropping into coverage, unfortunately it’s probably the best part of his game. He looks much more natural doing it than he does rushing the QB.

        Which for an edge rusher isn’t what you want to see.

      • BucsSavant

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        Post count: 201

        You don’t even know the guys name or the position he plays but I’m supposed to listen to you? Tryon* is an outside linebacker, and to answer your question. He’s looks pretty good dropping into coverage, unfortunately it’s probably the best part of his game. He looks much more natural doing it than he does rushing the QB.

        Which for an edge rusher isn’t what you want to see.

        Tryon’s best attribute is coverage now? Jesus dude. How are you not working for a front office? 🙄

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        Take the time out of your day and actually watch the full games that are* available to watched on youtube and you can see it for yourself and tell me I’m wrong.

        I may not be able to break the game down technically at the highest like Jon Ledyard or NFL Scouts/Gm’s can. But I have eyes and I know what I see.

        On the overwhelming majority of his snaps where Joe Tryon’s responsibility is to pin his ears back and rush the QB, he looks lost. He doesn’t win with good handwork or skill or great flexibility and speed around the edge. His get off is ok but nothing great and he doesn’t look like he is anticipating snap counts.

        He’s physical and doesn’t shy away from contact, and he has a good motor, but he doesn’t really appear to have any kind of rush plan or primary/counter moves that he can win with even remotely consistently. And for as big and as strong as he looks he gets pushed around in the run game and very rarely wins with speed to power and bull rush a tackle into a QB’s lap.

        When he wins pass reps fast enough to impact the QB, it’s usually due to playing against bad tackles or tight ends. He’ll win with hustle a few times a game too but rarely is able to effect the QB after those hustle wins.

        He does however look fluid dropping into coverage. Maybe it was a stretch to say its the best part of his game. But it’s certainly one of them. Yeah, he is big and muscular, and pretty good athlete with a motor and he’s physical. But he doesn’t display a lot of skill or instincts for rushing the passer, and there’s no guarantee he will ever develop them. So he is a project. Typically those guys get picked on day 2 or 3, not in the 1st round.

      • BuccaNOLEer

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        Post count: 938

        Check the records buddy. Tryon played 4-3 DE in high school and college. He’s only an OLB because Bowles runs a 3-4. His height and weight are very similar to Jason Taylor.

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        He literally played OLB at Washington. I’m not trying to be mean but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        Yes he can and Barr is a good example.

        Build the trenches!

    • buc-in-out

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      Post count: 446

      With his athletic profile, if he was a finished product he’d have gone top 5.

      Are you expecting Chase Young at 32 overall?

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        That would be a pretty good point if there weren’t multiple players available that were better than Tryon.

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        Like I said in earlier posts the Bucs nabbed a great value at 32. Any time you could nab a potential blue chipper at 32 that may turn out to be highway robbery.

        Can’t be down on Licht for swinging for the fences on this one. Especially if Tryon is going to be playing opposite of Shaq for a long time.

        Build the trenches!

    • buc_boi

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      Post count: 3313

      OP was right about MJ Stewart, I personally know nothing about any of our draftees.

      Becoming harder and harder to keep up.

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        Lmao, good looking out there my guy! I was definitely spot on about MJ Stewart, will never understand what Licht saw in that guy or how he could possibly be higher on Lichts board than Donte Jackson, or Carlton Davis for that matter but luckily we still got CD24 and he’s a baller.

        Although I have to be honest, in that same thread I also said I didn’t think Jordan Whitehead would be anything special and was bummed out because I had fully bought into the Shaquem Griffin hype train lol. Griffin hasn’t done anything in the league and Whitehead has become a damn fine player.

        I guess I was thrown off with Whitehead because he took so many snaps at RB in college and I was concerned that he kind of looked better as a RB than as a Safety lol, although even in college he was known for lighting people up.

        Not to toot my own horn, but far more often than not if I have a bad/good feeling about one of our 1st or 2nd round picks I turn out to be right. Hopefully this year I’m totally wrong because I’m not thrilled about Tryon or Trask.

    • GoldsonAges

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      Post count: 2968

      completely agree with the OP. Tryon don’t have great film. I personally liked the 3 tech an the Notre Dame OLB much better than Tryon.

      But, players are drafted for potential all the time. The players I liked are already at their ceiling and should be very good NFL players.

      Keeping in mind that Tryon’s film was from 2019, and he was improving (according to the reports) towards the end of 2019, the FO probably did a 2020 projection in addition to a much deeper breakdown than any of us on this kid.

      They felt like rolling the dice on this kid. I get it. I used to be a lot more critical of the FO, back in the kicker drafting days, but this just doesn’t seem like a major screw up. Did they roll the dice? Absolutely. Did they completely blunder? Absolutely not.

      GottaJaboo wrote:
      (Justin) Evans will be far superior to (Budda) Baker in the pros.

      Dan Skipper Sucks! (lost bet)
      Update – UDFA Dan Skipper has been signed by the Dallas Cowboys

      • Schwifty9

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        Post count: 85

        Obviously it wasn’t the worst pick ever, but I certainly feel as though they screwed up. In a year where we are trying to repeat, and the entire league is going to be gunning for us and giving us their best, we should have been taking players that could help us the most this year. Not players that might be good in 2-3 years. But that’s just my opinion.

        Also like I addressed previously, If Tryon really did get considerably better at the end of 2019, then he must have been horridly god awful before then, because I’ve watched several of his last 6 games as a Huskie and came away very unimpressed.

    • BucsSavant

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      Post count: 201

      I agree. Buckles is a poor talent evaluator. He was the biggest McCoy hater, but I bet McCoy would have eaten his lunch on the field. McCoy totally lived up to his draft status. This article shows that numbers don’t lie. If people look at the names on the pro bowl, sack other lists he’s a part of they’d recognize he was a great Buccaneer and he posted great numbers by himself. He played on terrible defenses and didn’t play along the same talent Warren Sapp had.

      https://www.panthers.com/news/five-statistics-to-know-about-gerald-mccoy

      How’ve you been, Gerald ?

      • Alldaway 2.0

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        Post count: 4678

        Okay, that is funny. Jolly Green Giant had his moments though.

        Build the trenches!

      • RascalBuc

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        Post count: 2

        Ha, not Gerald…just a life long Bucs fan who appreciated McCoy on the field. The closest Beckles got to a pro bowl was his tv remote control. The guy incessantly talked about McCoy being soft. Beckles quit football because he got a cramp….a cramp? …who went to 6 pro bowls and who never went to one?

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