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    • tog

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      Post count: 3533

      It’s obvious this defence has been terrible.  I know some are suggesting this has been the worst Bucs defence the team has ever seen, but the defensive showings by the Bucs in 2011 was actually worse – both experientially and via Football Outsiders’ defensive efficiency rankings.  The Bucs are currently ranked 25th with a defensive DVOA (defensive-adjusted value over average) of 7.8% (25th ranked) which is most similar to 2009 when the Bucs had a DVOA of 7.9% and also ranked 25th.  2011 saw them ranked 31st with a DVOA of 14.2% (high is bad).  See here: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2011My actual question is this: Why is a new scheme considered at all as an explanation for the defensive woes? There are 9 new DCs in the NFL in 2014.  Using FootballOutsiders defensive rankings (because they're far, far better than yards allowed), let's examine how teams have done, using rank and DVOA% (1st 2013 then 2014), and reminder a high % is bad: Bucs: -6.8% (8th) / 7.8% (25th)Bills: -13.8% (4th) / -13.8% (3rd)Beng: -12.6% (5th) / -7.2% (9th)Brown: +8.2% (24th) / +17.9% (31st)Cowb: +13.8% (30th) / +7.4% (24th)Lions: -0.8% (14th) / -15.6% (1st)Texan: +2.5% (18th) / -2.8% (15th)Titan: +4.2% (22nd) / +7.1% (23rd)Viking: +10.5% (27th) / +8.4% (26th)Of the 9 new DCs, 3 have produced defences that rank about the same (Vikings, Titans, and Bills).  3 have produced real improvement in their defences (Texans, Lions, Cowboys).  3 have produced real downgrades in their defences (Bucs, Bengals, and Browns).Of the teams who have dropped in the rankings the Bengals aren't particularly ineresting because they're still a top 10 defence.  The two significant drops are the Browns and the Bucs falling 9.7% and 14.6% respectively.  The only similar swing is the Lions who improved by 14.8%.These rankings are obviously very early (it being week 6) and there will absolutely be change in DVOA, especially as the strength of schedule continues to reveal itself (part of the beauty of DVOA is that it takes into account the quality of opponent - thus giving up 21 points to Denver is not the same as 21 points to Jacksonville).But my ultimate point is that the Bucs are not only the worst defence with a new DC (by a lot), they are only 2 of 9 teams with a new DC to be significantly worst.So I guess I'm saying, can we stop talking about learning the scheme as an excuse for bad play?  Obviously, another year in this system will improve the play of the defence.  But that's true for every defence (and offence). Unfortunately, the Bus are only 22% of new defences struggling to execute basic assignments.  The real questions should be about coaching, playcalling, and talent - not whether the Bucs need more time to learn this scheme.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4274

      Watching Dallas play, and Derrick Brooks’ comment about needing time to learn the scheme is a big hurdle to overcome.  Dallas has less talent on defense, play calling and coaching isn’t significantly better.But Cowboy's players do not free lance like the Bucs do, and they play smart, disciplined football by keeping everything in front of them.Only issues of talent I see for the Bucs is primarily at RDE, MLB and one of the safety spots.  But Johnson is satisfactory as a stop gap at RDE. 

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 173

      I beg to differ about the coaching, Alldaway. Marinelli is 10x the DC Leslie Frazier will ever be. More importantly, he knows how to push the right buttons and get the most out of his group, something Leslie and Lovie have yet to do.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 357

      So Lovie took the 8th best defense in the entire league and turned it into the 25th best?? Wow!! That says it all, IMO!!  As to it taking time to learn this defense, if I was a betting man (and I’m not) I would bet a review if where the Buc defense stood especially in scoring defense in The first 6 games of 1996 vs where it stands now at 34 points per game would put the lie to the assertion that it takes time to learn this defense. When Brooks said that I’m sure he meant that it took time to REALLY learn it in all it’s aspects, not that it took a REALLY long time before you could run it at ALL!!!

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1858

      So Lovie took the 8th best defense in the entire league and turned it into the 25th best?? Wow!! That says it all, IMO!!  As to it taking time to learn this defense, if I was a betting man (and I'm not) I would bet a review if where the Buc defense stood especially in scoring defense in The first 6 games of 1996 vs where it stands now at 34 points per game would put the lie to the assertion that it takes time to learn this defense. When Brooks said that I'm sure he meant that it took time to REALLY learn it in all it's aspects, not that it took a REALLY long time before you could run it at ALL!!!

      Yep, that argument is bullshit.  It would make sense if the Bucs had dropped from the 8th best defence to say 15th, a large drop but at least an argument that the Bucs were learning a totally different scheme and lacked the personnel makes sense.Amusingly, many like myself thought the Buc defence would take real steps forward under Lovie.  And the only reason it isn't worse is because it's been SO bad at times that opposing teams check out by the 3rd quarter.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 612

      What's different about this defence?

      Different?.....let me take a stab....the spelling?

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1858

      What's different about this defence?

      Different?.....let me take a stab....the spelling?

      Yes, because that's the British (or in my case Canadian) spelling of "defense". We spell it "defence".

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4274

      I don’t know..Sapp said it is going to take time as well as Brooks and Barber.  This isn’t something you can learn within one off season in my opinion.The reason why the defense is regressing so much is because the Tampa 2 is designed to stop big passing plays.  If done right it works incredibly well, but if not done right you are leaving large holes of real estate that a pro QB can pick apart.It is a very binary defense in that you either are in the right zone coverage, right position or not.  There is no intermediate like m2m coverage.  Most NFL defenses today (eg Seattle) use a base defense of a cover 3.  Currently, this defense isn't featuring a lot of cover 3 because it requires a lot out of the safties and mike LB. 

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1858

      I don't know..Sapp said it is going to take time as well as Brooks and Barber.  This isn't something you can learn within one off season in my opinion.The reason why the defense is regressing so much is because the Tampa 2 is designed to stop big passing plays.  If done right it works incredibly well, but if not done right you are leaving large holes of real estate that a pro QB can pick apart.It is a very binary defense in that you either are in the right zone coverage, right position or not.  There is no intermediate like m2m coverage.  Most NFL defenses today (eg Seattle) use a base defense of a cover 3.  Currently, this defense isn't featuring a lot of cover 3 because it requires a lot out of the safties and mike LB.

      I don't agree with that answer for a couple of reasons.First, as I show above there are 9 other new defences.  Only 2 (Bucs & Browns) are significantly worse.  Why are 7 new defences easier to install?Second, if Lovie/Frazier were hired as the DC of a competitive team (eg. the Bengals or Seahawks) there's no way you're using a defence that requires so much installation that you're throwing away half the season or longer.It's complete bullsh*t. If the defence takes too long to learn, then you install it in bits and pieces.  You modify it.  There is no defence (or offence) in the NFL that shouldn't work week 1. And then you just add to it and grow it as necessary.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 357

      I agree Tog. Another point; IIRC, Lovie left here to become the DC of, I believe the Rams. They wanted him to install the Tampa 2 and he was very successful with it almost immediately and became a HC VERY soon thereafter. If that defense had played as poorly in the first 6 games as this one has he would have been fired no later than the end of that season and wouldn’t have become a HC so quicklyIMO, this defense should be better now than it is....MUCH better.Also, remember, when Dungy took over this team Sapp wasn't Sapp, Brooks wasn't Brooks, Lynch wasn't Lynch and Barber wasn't Barber. However, when Lovie took over THIS team McCoy WAS McCoy, already a two-time Pro Bowler and considered the best DT in the entire NFL;  LoVante David WAS LoVante David, an all-pro OLB who was coming off a season having done some things no linebacker inHISTORY has ever done!!

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 169

      ust saw a brief segment on Cowboys D on NFL Live, and it did NOT resemble Lovie/Frazier’s passive defense in any respect.  They were “zone-blitzin’, and “double-A gap” blitzing, and playing much more aggressively, in respect to getting after the QB.  There is NO way anyone can say the Cowboy’s have more talent on D than we do, BUT their coaching is EXPONENTIALLY better.  The ‘Boys are playing without their 2 best players last season, in Sean Lee and Ware, who’s in Denver, and are playing Rolondo McClain, who been out of football for 2 years, at the critical MLB position.  This monstrosity of a defense is squarely on Lovie Smith.  I think he surrounded himself with “yes” guys on the defensive coaching staff, and its very concerning that he got his son coaching the Safety’s.  Is Smith’s son really the best we could find to coach the S position?  Unless this coaching staff in BLOWN UP, this will be a continuing disaster on defense, IMO.  Giving Lovie Smith free reign was a HUGE mistake by the Glazers.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1091

      Discipline! As in player discipline. These players have not bought in yet and it is evident by what is happening on the field.  When you have defensive backs and linebackers that are not executing their respective assignments and are routinely out of position that is a clear lack of discipline. And, to take it a step further: have not shown the ability to take what is being taught in the classroom and at practice and carry it over to game situations… For me it illustrates a lack of fundamental belief that the system works, by the players…

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      Watching Dallas play, and Derrick Brooks' comment about needing time to learn the scheme is a big hurdle to overcome.  Dallas has less talent on defense, play calling and coaching isn't significantly better.But Cowboy's players do not free lance like the Bucs do, and they play smart, disciplined football by keeping everything in front of them.

      Marinelli

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3341

      It’s only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      they should fire him now, just like they should've fired Dungy after his sixth game. follow the Raiders model, always turn over coaches.ignore Derrick Brooks he's an idiot. Stick with Buggsy, he know better!lol

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1875

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      Okay – how many games/seasons will it take to see some semblance of the Cover 2 being played well?

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      Okay - how many games/seasons will it take to see some semblance of the Cover 2 being played well?

      forgotten blue font got yaI say we fire his ass now!

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3341

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      Okay - how many games/seasons will it take to see some semblance of the Cover 2 being played well?

      Oh, I have no idea.  I hear from the leghumper it could take some time to learn a new defense  Maybe we should check with with the Lions and see how it took them to learn a new defense.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1875

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      Okay - how many games/seasons will it take to see some semblance of the Cover 2 being played well?

      Oh, I have no idea.  I hear from the leghumper it could take some time to learn a new defense  Maybe we should check with with the Lions and see how it took them to learn a new defense.

      I should have known - my error...

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1875

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      Okay - how many games/seasons will it take to see some semblance of the Cover 2 being played well?

      forgotten blue font got yaI say we fire his ass now!

      Got it now – thanks

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4274

      I don't know..Sapp said it is going to take time as well as Brooks and Barber.  This isn't something you can learn within one off season in my opinion.The reason why the defense is regressing so much is because the Tampa 2 is designed to stop big passing plays.  If done right it works incredibly well, but if not done right you are leaving large holes of real estate that a pro QB can pick apart.It is a very binary defense in that you either are in the right zone coverage, right position or not.  There is no intermediate like m2m coverage.  Most NFL defenses today (eg Seattle) use a base defense of a cover 3.  Currently, this defense isn't featuring a lot of cover 3 because it requires a lot out of the safties and mike LB.

      I don't agree with that answer for a couple of reasons.First, as I show above there are 9 other new defences.  Only 2 (Bucs & Browns) are significantly worse.  Why are 7 new defences easier to install?Second, if Lovie/Frazier were hired as the DC of a competitive team (eg. the Bengals or Seahawks) there's no way you're using a defence that requires so much installation that you're throwing away half the season or longer.It's complete bullsh*t. If the defence takes too long to learn, then you install it in bits and pieces.  You modify it.  There is no defence (or offence) in the NFL that shouldn't work week 1. And then you just add to it and grow it as necessary.

      1. This defensive scheme isn't anything like the other 9 new defenses being put in place.  It it is not a downhill blitz double a gap scheme, is it not about bump n run (although it would be nice for a change to see that instead of soft coverage).  It is about smart, disciplined football.Sapp has said, Brooks said very recently, and Barber pointed out in pre season games when Barron and Goldshon were at times out of position that you have to play your keys (eg. know what the offense is doing based on formation,  and down and distance).2. Lovie turned around the Rams defense in a hurry in his first season which is true.  However, the Rams had a lot of holdovers from that strong defense that was overshadowed by the offense in 99.  Frazier didn't turn around the defense he was coordinating over night.  3.  It takes time.  Gruden's offense wasn't fully understood by Brad Johnson till late in the season which is why the Bucs offense was pedestrian for the start of the season and even lost the opener against the Saints.  When you have that many starters and a new scheme, yes it takes time.  It took time for Dungy to install the Tampa 2 as Brooks and Sapp were not really optimal in it in the first season.  Lynch looked lost and Barber struggled for 2 seasons till it clicked in his head.So, I refuse to pretend that growing pains never happened with any defensive scheme or offensive scheme when first installed.The problem is unlike Brad Johnson/Gru team this current team doesn't have a dominant unit to lean on till they pull it together.  So when installing new schemes on both sides of the ball, it seems like the perfect storm of terribleness is upon us.Just have to suck it up and keeping working hard. 

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 310

      :) Some of my fellow Posters have quickly forgotten how bad we have drafted in teh past several years and it catches up with us sooner or later.  The player defensive players Coach Smith let go; who among them have any contribution to their new teams?  Only 16 million dollar and a 1st round and 4th round draft picks Revis has done anything.  I believe we might want to re think our criticism and give this some time.  Too many bought into a hype that is standard to sell tickets and clothing attire.  Give this at least another draft.  I do see progress, but I also believe we are a 2-3 win team this season at best.  I under estimated how bad the drafting and free agency pick ups  in the past cost us. :-[  Go Bus!

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      It's only been six games, guys. Show a little patience.

      Okay - how many games/seasons will it take to see some semblance of the Cover 2 being played well?

      Oh, I have no idea.  I hear from the leghumper it could take some time to learn a new defense  Maybe we should check with with the Lions and see how it took them to learn a new defense.

      now Derrick Brooks is a "leghumper"?  lmao.  he's the one that said fans should be patient. Brooks comment is only partially related to my point -- a fact you conveniently ignore (as always) -- which is that its probably a little over the top to think that what you see of a Lovie Smith team in his 4th or 5th game is what you would ALWAYS see from a Lovie Smith team.  To that point: (1) what was his 2012 defense ranked? (2) have you heard of Tony Dungy?(Buggsy, a little tip for you: if you have to mis-characterize someone's position to try to knock it down, you might not want to waste your time)Now, someone go tell Brooks he's a "leghumper" for thinking that fans should be patient because the Bucs defense will have some growing pains.  Oh wait . . . someone already called him a  "company man" so I guess he already knows it!!!!  Bring on Sapp the Sage!

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4057

      The problem is a lot of the issues aren’t about the complexity of the defense. A guy playing zone technique when man defense is called has nothing to do with “the scheme”.I will also say that this scheme isn't that new.  We are playing man under cover 2, cover 3 zone, cover 2 zone, Tampa 2 zone and so forth. Everyone plays those coverages. Up front we are one gaping. We were a one gap team last year. Gap integrity is a part of every defensive scheme.  Every defense has assignments and landmarks and responsibility. Lovie didn't invent the idea of backside contain to stop a bootleg that is just standard since you were in pop Warner defense and we are blowing that. I'd understand if we were blowing a couple of plays a game but we are inept for way, way, way too many plays per game to use the " we are learning excuse".

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2188

      The coaches aren’t coaching it well enough and the players are not learning it fast enough. Brooks said he’s seeing the same, simple mistakes every week. Saw one CB playing cover 3 multiple times when everyone else was playing man (see Torrey Smith TDs). This D is struggling with the basics let alone the more advanced concepts he said. Brooks said he and Sapp and company would stay after practice and run through things. It takes extra effort. 

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      The problem is a lot of the issues aren't about the complexity of the defense. A guy playing zone technique when man defense is called has nothing to do with "the scheme".I will also say that this scheme isn't that new.  We are playing man under cover 2, cover 3 zone, cover 2 zone, Tampa 2 zone and so forth. Everyone plays those coverages. Up front we are one gaping. We were a one gap team last year. Gap integrity is a part of every defensive scheme.  Every defense has assignments and landmarks and responsibility. Lovie didn't invent the idea of backside contain to stop a bootleg that is just standard since you were in pop Warner defense and we are blowing that. I'd understand if we were blowing a couple of plays a game but we are inept for way, way, way too many plays per game to use the " we are learning excuse".

      I haven't seen any of the Bucs use the "we are learning excuse." In fact, I dont even think Brooks used the "they are learning" excuse. I think Brooks just said (paraphrasing) dont expect us be back at 2002.  There are two different issues being disucssed: One is the notion that you should fire a coach after 5 or 6 games. In most instances that is absurd, but even more so when its an established NFL coach.  In essence, the problem is most people's expectations are out of whack in part because the team sold the whole "win now" idea and in part because of Lovie's connection to the past. That's all great, but fans expectations do not often equal reality. Look no further than the very example you mention (playing zone when its man), which involved a guy just off the street. Some of the other critical mistakes in the Raven's game (according to White) involve guys that were back ups to backups (Lansanah) and guys that Lovie has nothing to do with other than perhaps not replacing them already (LJ and Barron). Sure the coaching staff is responsible, but even the DC is not Lovie's first choice. I am not saying that this is a reason to ignore all that has happened, BUT I AM SAYING THAT ITS FOOLISH TO SAY "FIRE HIM NOW"  . . .UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.Think of it this way: Lovie should get LESS time than Morris and Schiano?????? C'mon now . . .The second issue is Brooks comment (paraphrasing) that fans should temper their expectations because it takes a while to get to the "defense of old."  That is so obviously true that it hardly merits a defense, but its dismissed on these boards because people on message boards turn everything into absolutes to suit their own view. So, Brooks truism becomes this strawman: "the ONLY thing we need is time." HOF'er Brooks becomes a liar and a "company man." Silly stuff.  All we need are many things, among them more talent and much better coaching. Last season the Cowboys defense was horrific under Monte, this season quite good under Marinelli. There have been some small schematic changes but basically guys who didnt exhibit gap integrity etc under one coach do under another. I am willing to wait at least as long as I did with Morris and Schiano to see if Lovie works out. If that puts me in the minority (and it seems it does) then so be it

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4623

      Second, if Lovie/Frazier were hired as the DC of a competitive team (eg. the Bengals or Seahawks) there's no way you're using a defence that requires so much installation that you're throwing away half the season or longer.

      Great point. Good teams have to hire new defensive coordinators every year. They don't just say we don't expect to compete this year because they got a new coach.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2188

      Exactly. Only the Bucs hire coordinators with schemes so complex they take years to master but never do. Cough *Mike Sullivan*

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      Second, if Lovie/Frazier were hired as the DC of a competitive team (eg. the Bengals or Seahawks) there's no way you're using a defence that requires so much installation that you're throwing away half the season or longer.

      Great point. Good teams have to hire new defensive coordinators every year. They don't just say we don't expect to compete this year because they got a new coach.

      The 4-12 Bucs are comparable to the Bengals and Seahawks?  Damn, fire Lovie now!!!Btw, did the Bucs ever say the defense required "so much installation" that we would suck? Has anyone ever actually said that?  I dont think anyone has said the defense is complex; in fact, its the opposite of that, right?Lovie's defense, like most defenses, takes talent and discipline and understanding and confidence (buy in).  The current defense lacks all of that, in part. Its a team sport. Guys miss their assignments because of lack of talent, lack of understanding and lack of trust . . . whatever the reason, you break down, you often lose.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      Exactly. Only the Bucs hire coordinators with schemes so complex they take years to master but never do. Cough *Mike Sullivan*

      The Bucs defense is complex? who ever said that about Lovie's defense?  By the way, should Lovie get LESS time than Sullivan or Sheridan . .  or Schiano or Morris?  Simple logic would say "no" so what gives with all the "fire Lovie NOW" posts?  hint: expectationscue the typical "they fooled us" comments . . .

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1686

      The players not trusting each other is killing this defense right now.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3341

      Derrick Brooks says everyone should be patient, it takes a while to get everyone on the same page with this D . . . . . Red Board says "he doesn't know what he is talking about" . . . and then says the defense is worse than last year based on ONE GAMEsmh

      It's only been one week.It's only been two weeks.It's only been three weeks.It's only been four weeks.It's only been five weeks.It's only been six weeks.When does it stop, leghumper?

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1686

      Once the players stick to their responsibilities it will be at least respectable. We need some better players, especially at safety and DE.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 4274

      The defense isn’t complex.  As Brooks said the frustration and anger he saw as he watched the Ravens game was how the Bucs defenders were making very simple, but profound mistakes.  Brooks said, this defense needs to worry about basics before it can worry about shifting gap assignments based on alignment of the offense being off set for example.  This defensive style can be more complex and mask coverages but right now they are failing to do basic cover 3 coverages lol.If I have to name some of the players that need to wake up here is a list:1. Michael Johnson - He is a RDE, and thus often considered a weakside defender based on alignment.  Most offenses will run to their right or strong side of formations.  If everyone hits their gaps properly, Michael Johnson has to come down the line to make a play on the ball carrier because he will be free. Period. Brooks didn't call out his name but it is clear as day how frustrated he was with whom he was talking about. 2. Do you all remember what sent Sabby packing? Poor tackling yes.  But also his inability to go to the correct gap too.  Barron needs to wake up.3.  Like Barron, Goldshon is a liability in coverage, but both are making mistakes in the box.  This is killing this defense with massive runs when gap integrity is wrong.4. Bucs CB's are consistently not lining up correctly when playing soft zone, m2m, etc.  This is a coaching problem not really a player problem.5. Lavonte David has to make more plays, because like the RDE, he is often flowing to the ball and has to make a play.  6. Mike LB and SAM LB must not bite on simple play action fakes.  No excuses for any MLB or Lansanah.The sad thing is the only guy that seems to know what he needs to do is Gholston at LDE.  Everyone else needs to put on their big boy pants (think Raheem Morris) and actually play some smart football.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1858

      Second, if Lovie/Frazier were hired as the DC of a competitive team (eg. the Bengals or Seahawks) there's no way you're using a defence that requires so much installation that you're throwing away half the season or longer.

      Great point. Good teams have to hire new defensive coordinators every year. They don't just say we don't expect to compete this year because they got a new coach.

      The 4-12 Bucs are comparable to the Bengals and Seahawks?  Damn, fire Lovie now!!!Btw, did the Bucs ever say the defense required "so much installation" that we would suck? Has anyone ever actually said that?  I dont think anyone has said the defense is complex; in fact, its the opposite of that, right?Lovie's defense, like most defenses, takes talent and discipline and understanding and confidence (buy in).  The current defense lacks all of that, in part. Its a team sport. Guys miss their assignments because of lack of talent, lack of understanding and lack of trust . . . whatever the reason, you break down, you often lose.

      First, If the Buccaneers players can't learn the defence then clearly it requires too much installation. That's pretty basic. "Too much installation" doesn't require complexity.Defences, all while being very similar on the field, can require radically different cues, reads, and calls to achieve the same effect.  You could have two Tampa 2 defences being as similar as a chicken and a rock.  Think of it like a car - you can have the same frae but what's under the hood is entirely different producign two very different cars.Or think of offences.  Two teams can run double slants out of a 21 set - but can use entirely different terminology (eg. West Coast vs. Perkins), require different reads of the QB, have different adjustments for the WRs, etc. etc. etc.  Much like defences, there are any "new" offensive plays (there's nothing new under the sun).  Instead, what keeps changing is how they're called, how plays are packaged, etc. etc.  Second, this team defensively had some success last year.  If the Bucs were the 2013 Cowboys, continued struggles would not be surprising.  But to go from a respectable (if not amazing) defence to a historically terrible defence is the issue.While there can be some growing pains, there is no acceptable explanation for the play of this defence.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      The players not trusting each other is killing this defense right now.

      no way

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      Derrick Brooks says everyone should be patient, it takes a while to get everyone on the same page with this D . . . . . Red Board says "he doesn't know what he is talking about" . . . and then says the defense is worse than last year based on ONE GAMEsmh

      It's only been one week.It's only been two weeks.It's only been three weeks.It's only been four weeks.It's only been five weeks.It's only been six weeks.When does it stop, leghumper?

      wait, I though Derrick Brooks was the "leghumper"?lolonly in the weird world of massage boards would a guy be calling for an established head coach's job after week one and act like he is on the right side of logic  . . . worse yet, calling those who say maybe he should at least have the same opportunity as Morris and Schiano "leghumpers"  roflmao Buggsy, I am with you, they should've fired him right after he landed here  . . . why wait until week 1?

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 9891

      Second, if Lovie/Frazier were hired as the DC of a competitive team (eg. the Bengals or Seahawks) there's no way you're using a defence that requires so much installation that you're throwing away half the season or longer.

      Great point. Good teams have to hire new defensive coordinators every year. They don't just say we don't expect to compete this year because they got a new coach.

      The 4-12 Bucs are comparable to the Bengals and Seahawks?  Damn, fire Lovie now!!!Btw, did the Bucs ever say the defense required "so much installation" that we would suck? Has anyone ever actually said that?  I dont think anyone has said the defense is complex; in fact, its the opposite of that, right?Lovie's defense, like most defenses, takes talent and discipline and understanding and confidence (buy in).  The current defense lacks all of that, in part. Its a team sport. Guys miss their assignments because of lack of talent, lack of understanding and lack of trust . . . whatever the reason, you break down, you often lose.

      First, If the Buccaneers players can't learn the defence then clearly it requires too much installation. That's pretty basic. "Too much installation" doesn't require complexity.Defences, all while being very similar on the field, can require radically different cues, reads, and calls to achieve the same effect.  You could have two Tampa 2 defences being as similar as a chicken and a rock.  Think of it like a car - you can have the same frae but what's under the hood is entirely different producign two very different cars.Or think of offences.  Two teams can run double slants out of a 21 set - but can use entirely different terminology (eg. West Coast vs. Perkins), require different reads of the QB, have different adjustments for the WRs, etc. etc. etc.  Much like defences, there are any "new" offensive plays (there's nothing new under the sun).  Instead, what keeps changing is how they're called, how plays are packaged, etc. etc.  Second, this team defensively had some success last year.  If the Bucs were the 2013 Cowboys, continued struggles would not be surprising.  But to go from a respectable (if not amazing) defence to a historically terrible defence is the issue.While there can be some growing pains, there is no acceptable explanation for the play of this defence.

      sure there is, its called lack of execution. In other words, guys can still understand their cues etc, but not stick to them under pressure of the game because they are trying to do too much or because they dont grasp the significance of their role or they lack confidence (as a few examples). You can see examples of all of those things in the Ravens game.If you look at 1996 as an example and then think about the old Bucs defense with Sapp always talking about "just get us 17 points"  Well, in 1996 the Bucs gave up 20-30 points in the "simple" Tampa 2 when they first started. They had Brooks, Sapp, Lynch and Hardy and were coming off 7-9, not 4-12 . .  and yet they struggled initally. They won a game. I think they kept the score down (IIRC) and then they lost more games but (IIRC) didnt they actually keep the score down for a while?They have to have some success doing what their coaches tell them. That may not happen, but it does take players time to actually buy in (not "understand") a new scheme.

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    • Anonymous

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      Derrick Brooks says everyone should be patient, it takes a while to get everyone on the same page with this D . . . . . Red Board says "he doesn't know what he is talking about" . . . and then says the defense is worse than last year based on ONE GAMEsmh

      It's only been one week.It's only been two weeks.It's only been three weeks.It's only been four weeks.It's only been five weeks.It's only been six weeks.When does it stop, leghumper?

      Hey Buggsy, like Brooks ... Hardy Nickerson is also a "leg humper"

      Former Bucs great and current linebackers coach Hardy Nickerson told some of the media last week that it took he and the rest of the 1996 Bucs defense until Week 9 of that season to really feel comfortable in the Tampa 2 defensive scheme installed by then head coach Tony Dungy

      could you do me a favor and got tell Hardware he's a "leg humper"?

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    • Anonymous

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      only in the weird world of massage boards would a guy be calling for an established head coach's job after week one and act like he is on the right side of logic  . . . Buggsy, I am with you, they should've fired him right after he landed here  . . . why wait until week 1?

      The DUI Counselor building a strawman?  Color me stunned.

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    • Anonymous

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      only in the weird world of massage boards would a guy be calling for an established head coach's job after week one and act like he is on the right side of logic  . . . Buggsy, I am with you, they should've fired him right after he landed here  . . . why wait until week 1?

      The DUI Counselor building a strawman?  Color me stunned.

      oops, Buggsy is mad now . .. . what strawman, you asked when was enough and listed week 1, right?  so what week is it?  I have said that he deserves as much time as Morris or Schiano, so calm down . .  take a deep breath . .  and give us your view. :D

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    • Anonymous

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      I understand the desire to search for a smoking gun here, but the reality is probably a mix of a lot of factors (in no particular order):- New D - I actually think this is the weakest point. Players maybe shouldn't be expected to be entirely comfortable perhaps, but they certainly should be non-terrible. As dalbuc - I think - pointed out somewhere on these boards, a lot of these concepts are things they've done in other defenses. Learning curve shouldn't be as steep. - Weak links - It seems to me that a lot of the same people are making mistakes. Fletcher, Lansaneh, Leonard Johnson, Dixon. I remember last year one opponent basically threw at Michael Adams every time he was on the field, and we all remember what happened when Tim Wansley came in v. Indy. When you are cutting guys getting substantial snaps midseason (Solomon), that tells you something. I think every team has them, but we seem to have more of them. Doesn't help that the safeties take turns being weak-link du jour either. - Injuries - It's not so much that Mason Foster is an all-pro as it is that the gap between him and Fletcher or Lansaneh is a chasm. There are probably plays Foster won't make in coverage because athletically he's not elite. But he doesn't compound that by making terrible decisions like bite on play action on third and forever. At one point the corners were supposed to be Verner, Jenkins, Banks, and Melvin. Melvin and Verner missed much of the preseason (and Melvin of course eventually got cut), and Banks has been in and out. Jenkins was a starter.  I'm sure Michael Johnson was never going to be Sim Rice II, but I think it's reasonable to assume the injury is causing him problems. McCoy has mostly looked like a bright spot, but the hand is probably having an impact. - Weak links and injuries being a factor are problems of scouting and coaching. Depth has to be better in terms of talent and better in terms of prep. 

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    • Anonymous

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      thats a pretty good summary BR

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    • Anonymous

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      The one nitpick I’d make with your summary BR is around weak links/injuries.  First, everyone is playing terrible.  It's not like there's a few great talents and then a chasm of talent (kind of like in 2009).  Only McCoy, David, and Verner, and Johnson have a history of playing at a high level.  And even for Verner it was as the no. 2 CB and Johnson being the 3rd most talented player on the Bengals DL. Banks has regressed, as have Barron and Goldson when on the field. And even David has largely disappeared.Second, injuries only really matter if the players replacing them aren't any good.  Foster's game against the Ravens was bad.  Even with Johnson, while we hope it's because of injury it's not like his stat lines are off his career average.  And Banks when in the lineup has been very bad, and Jenkins was a technical starter who looked poor in the limited snaps he got and is a full-on bust.Again, I'm nitpicking.  But the Bucs haven't had any worse injuries than most teams most years.  They lack depth, but the starters aren't actually playing much better than the backups.

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    • Anonymous

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      It’s hard to argue that all our old Tampa 2 players from the glory days leg hump this scheme and all their former coaches.I mean take Steve White for example . Telling us, this offseason , that we better jump on the bandwagon now because the defense is going to be AWESOME now that Lovie is here with his "no stunt" D-line scheme .  LOLLeg humpers indeed....Did they ever make excuses for Schiano ?? Try hell no ...and Schiano's D didn't even look this bad.

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    • Anonymous

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      New D - I actually think this is the weakest point.

      Of course it's the weakest point, but it's the easiest for the excuse-makers to latch onto.  Every year in the NFL, there are new DC's that implement new schemes and other teams don't have any problem flourishing.  Just look at Kansas City and New Orleans last year and Detroit this year.

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    • Anonymous

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      New D - I actually think this is the weakest point.

      Of course it's the weakest point, but it's the easiest for the excuse-makers to latch onto.  Every year in the NFL, there are new DC's that implement new schemes and other teams don't have any problem flourishing.  Just look at Kansas City and New Orleans last year and Detroit this year.

      has anyone actually said that a new defense is the "excuse"? Or, have they said "patience"? I think Brooks and Booger, Hardy etc have said "patience," right? I think that has to do with new defense . .  and . .  new philosophy, need for more talent etc. In sum, they have said what Booker Reese said, but of course you only quoted ONE PART (lol)  Again, aren't you the guy that still refuses to post how many weeks is enough? When would you fire Lovie?  CANT WAIT TO SEE YOUR RESPONSE . . .YOU IMPLIED 6 WEEKS WAS TOO MUCH AND ONE WEEK MIGHT HAVE BEEN ENOUGH . . . SO WHAT IS IT? By the way, I think I just discovered why PFF appeals to you so much. You apparently think 3/64 is good?  (kidding, of course)

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, I'm nitpicking.  But the Bucs haven't had any worse injuries than most teams most years.  They lack depth, but the starters aren't actually playing much better than the backups.

      My sense is that the starters are struggling in part because nobody trusts that the guy next to them is doing their job. Can't free-lance in this defense, and we've got a lot of it happening, either by choice or by ignorance (the Dixon example before). 

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    • Anonymous

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      Been pretty swamped at work but just noticed this…Defensive DVOA (Football Outsiders). Positive numbers are bad:29. Carolina (14%) 30. TB (15%)31. Atlanta (16%)32. Saints (17.7%)

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    • Anonymous

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      wow, that is amazing to have all 4 teams lining the bottom of the bowl. Sadly I think we might have the best shot at not being in that group at the end of the year.

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, I'm nitpicking.  But the Bucs haven't had any worse injuries than most teams most years.  They lack depth, but the starters aren't actually playing much better than the backups.

      My sense is that the starters are struggling in part because nobody trusts that the guy next to them is doing their job. Can't free-lance in this defense, and we've got a lot of it happening, either by choice or by ignorance (the Dixon example before).

      Is there any defence you can freelance in?

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, I'm nitpicking.  But the Bucs haven't had any worse injuries than most teams most years.  They lack depth, but the starters aren't actually playing much better than the backups.

      My sense is that the starters are struggling in part because nobody trusts that the guy next to them is doing their job. Can't free-lance in this defense, and we've got a lot of it happening, either by choice or by ignorance (the Dixon example before).

      Derrick Brooks - "patience"The Bucs have all kinds of problems on D, but the point made by Brooks and others is NOT that the players have to  LEARN the defense, its that they may have to learn to play within a scheme, If you are GMC or LVD, for the past couple years you have been playing your position and someone else's position. Youve been running all over the field making plays. now you're told just do your job . ..  so fill your gap because your teammate will be in the other gap.add to that a guy off the street

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    • Anonymous

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      New D - I actually think this is the weakest point.

      Of course it's the weakest point, but it's the easiest for the excuse-makers to latch onto.  Every year in the NFL, there are new DC's that implement new schemes and other teams don't have any problem flourishing.  Just look at Kansas City and New Orleans last year and Detroit this year.

      has anyone actually said that a new defense is the "excuse"? Or, have they said "patience"? I think Brooks and Booger, Hardy etc have said "patience," right? I think that has to do with new defense . .  and . .  new philosophy, need for more talent etc. In sum, they have said what Booker Reese said, but of course you only quoted ONE PART (lol)  Again, aren't you the guy that still refuses to post how many weeks is enough? When would you fire Lovie?  CANT WAIT TO SEE YOUR RESPONSE . . .YOU IMPLIED 6 WEEKS WAS TOO MUCH AND ONE WEEK MIGHT HAVE BEEN ENOUGH . . . SO WHAT IS IT?

      This is what anonymity does to people. Buggsy has the time to post nonsense on PR after my question, but not to respond .  . because there is no response other than admitting the nonsense:

      great stuff Buggsy

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    • Anonymous

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      Great stuff , Biggsbury Dough Boy.

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    • Anonymous

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      only in the weird world of massage boards would a guy be calling for an established head coach's job after week one and act like he is on the right side of logic  . . . Buggsy, I am with you, they should've fired him right after he landed here  . . . why wait until week 1?

      The DUI Counselor building a strawman?  Color me stunned.

      Which part of strawman do you not understand, DUI?I have not called for Smith's firing once, despite your strawman.  What I've called for is for halfwits like yourself to stop making excuses for poor performance.

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    • Anonymous

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      Why u mad tho , dough boy ?

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    • Anonymous

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      only in the weird world of massage boards would a guy be calling for an established head coach's job after week one and act like he is on the right side of logic  . . . Buggsy, I am with you, they should've fired him right after he landed here  . . . why wait until week 1?

      The DUI Counselor building a strawman?  Color me stunned.

      Which part of strawman do you not understand, DUI?I have not called for Smith's firing once, despite your strawman.  What I've called for is for halfwits like yourself to stop making excuses for poor performance.

      Ginger, I know you can read. (well, I think).  I did not say you were calling for his firing, I asked how long is enough.  I have said 'patience." You suggested one week to 6 weeks, but now you're trapped in a corner and are afraid to actually say how long because you know it will make you look like the doofus you are .... so we get deflections and "halfwits" instead of answering the question POSTED IN RED ALL CAPS AND BOLDLOL

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, aren't you the guy that still refuses to post how many weeks is enough? When would you fire Lovie?

      I did not say you were calling for his firing

      Move those goalposts, DUI Counselor.Your games are tiresome and pointless, considering you're pretty clueless - resulting in you being wrong more than anybody else on this forum.

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, I'm nitpicking.  But the Bucs haven't had any worse injuries than most teams most years.  They lack depth, but the starters aren't actually playing much better than the backups.

      My sense is that the starters are struggling in part because nobody trusts that the guy next to them is doing their job. Can't free-lance in this defense, and we've got a lot of it happening, either by choice or by ignorance (the Dixon example before).

      Is there any defence you can freelance in?

      That's a fair point. Maybe the way I'd frame it is that some defenses are more conducive to free-lancers and others open them up to being exposed. Two examples - Troy Polamalu seems to have been given a lot of free reign over the years to just let his instincts take over and (until recently) it didn't seem to effect the Steeler's D so much. The other is LaVar Arrington - he functioned quite well until Greg Williams. There was one year in Washington where Williams relied on a ton of cover-2 and Arrington ended up on the bench. He just wouldn't stay put.

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    • Anonymous

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      The freelancing isnt the issue , its that this defense doesnt allow for a lot of attacking downhill outside of the D-line. A lot of standing around flatfooted in the secondary waiting for guys to come to you , which goes against a defenders nature.

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, I'm nitpicking.  But the Bucs haven't had any worse injuries than most teams most years.  They lack depth, but the starters aren't actually playing much better than the backups.

      My sense is that the starters are struggling in part because nobody trusts that the guy next to them is doing their job. Can't free-lance in this defense, and we've got a lot of it happening, either by choice or by ignorance (the Dixon example before).

      Is there any defence you can freelance in?

      That's a fair point. Maybe the way I'd frame it is that some defenses are more conducive to free-lancers and others open them up to being exposed. Two examples - Troy Polamalu seems to have been given a lot of free reign over the years to just let his instincts take over and (until recently) it didn't seem to effect the Steeler's D so much. The other is LaVar Arrington - he functioned quite well until Greg Williams. There was one year in Washington where Williams relied on a ton of cover-2 and Arrington ended up on the bench. He just wouldn't stay put.

      I'd thought about Polamalu as well (Ed Reed would be another good example).  Even the Seahawks defence has a more free role for their "Elephant" player I believe (I'll have to check the terminology).The reason I ignored those defences is because they're designed for one player to have more latitude, to freelance.  Polamalus wasn't breaking the defence, but was doing what he was allowed within the confines of the defence. 

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    • Anonymous

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      Again, aren't you the guy that still refuses to post how many weeks is enough? When would you fire Lovie?

      I did not say you were calling for his firing

      Move those goalposts, DUI Counselor.Your games are tiresome and pointless, considering you're pretty clueless - resulting in you being wrong more than anybody else on this forum.

      No response to a simple question. Lol. "Color me shocked"

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