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    • revfish

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      Post count: 294

      Hope I spelled the name right.Scott/Mark-  with the offensive line being a huge area of need, I'm trying to figure out what's going on with Pamphile.  You all have said that he's not ready to play but  the Bucs are very high on him.  At the same time, if I heard you right, the  Bucs think he probably won't be ready to start or play much next year.  The way this translates to me is that he's not very good right now nor will he be that good for a couple of years...so what makes OBP think he will be really good at all?  We need lineman, but we need them now, not two years down the road.  1) am I reading you all right?  2) what makes us believe in him while dropping others?  3) do you agree with this strategy?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      In limited time he played he was hit or miss against the 1’s of the NFL.  So, the good news is he showed he belongs in the NFL to an extent, but the bad news is that he can’t unseat any of the current starters.  However, he is a mid round draft choice so he is going to need some time.Optimistically the Bucs found a decent depth player.  I don't see him a starter down the line but anything is possible.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      Either he started or was in early in the game. Got hurt and is out.Guess who is in in his place????Schmuck Gilkey!!!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      Major volcano I believe. Many dead and no reported survivors last I heard.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2000

      Pamphile and Edwards are examples of why teams need to draft OL virtually every year. Mid round picks are often hit or miss in the first place and at a position in which you need 5 of them you can’t depend on filling the OL with FAs and scrap heap guys. When you don’t draft any OL who can make the roster in 5 years, you pay for it.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 310

      ryan24; right on.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      I can see Pamphill sticking around.I can't the same for Edwards, especially if the team is more aggressive in upgrading the OG spot and possibly kicking Collins to play on the inside.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      I can see Pamphill sticking around.I can't the same for Edwards, especially if the team is more aggressive in upgrading the OG spot and possibly kicking Collins to play on the inside.

      We keep hearing of moving Collins inside but I don't think so. I think he is cut, flat out released immediately after the season. I have heard nothing of him practicing or even talking about moving to G and doubt he'd be any good there either. I've seen enough and it seems even St. Lovie has. I can't imagine a new OC worth his salt would be on board with such a move to improve the OL.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      I can’t imagine they are interested in kicking Collins inside after they benched him. He’s probably gone. Too early on Edwards - was known that he was likely to be a project, plus, he got injured.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      Cutting Collins would be a mistake IMO.  He has value playing on the interiior and for depth.  Mistake was made by the regime in assuming he could play LT but compounding that by making another hole on the overall roster is worse.

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2275

      Collins would not be a logical cut this offseason. That will come in another year when we get no dead money from it.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      Collins would not be a logical cut this offseason. That will come in another year when we get no dead money from it.

      Yup and his replacement is acquired.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 6677

      Cutting Collins would be a mistake IMO.  He has value playing on the interiior and for depth.  Mistake was made by the regime in assuming he could play LT but compounding that by making another hole on the overall roster is worse.

      $6 mil a year for a guy better suited to be a versatile backup?  How much dead money are we talking about?

    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 6677

      I can see Pamphill sticking around.I can't the same for Edwards, especially if the team is more aggressive in upgrading the OG spot and possibly kicking Collins to play on the inside.

      unlike his rookie year he is going to have to actually earn his roster spot next year in TC.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Cutting Collins would be a mistake IMO.  He has value playing on the interiior and for depth.  Mistake was made by the regime in assuming he could play LT but compounding that by making another hole on the overall roster is worse.

      $6 mil a year for a guy better suited to be a versatile backup?  How much dead money are we talking about?

      $3 million. $3 million saved on the cap though. Re: alldayway...Collins has never played in the interior in the pros. He's played both tackles and as an extra TE in Cincy. Perhaps he did it in college (I have no idea), but people assume he could just slot in.  The "assumed" he could play LT, because in fact, he actually played LT last year and performed well. I personally don't see him as a guard since I don't think he's shown himself to be nasty enough to handle the job inside.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      Cutting Collins would be a mistake IMO.  He has value playing on the interiior and for depth.  Mistake was made by the regime in assuming he could play LT but compounding that by making another hole on the overall roster is worse.

      $6 mil a year for a guy better suited to be a versatile backup?  How much dead money are we talking about?

      $3 million. $3 million saved on the cap though. Re: alldayway...Collins has never played in the interior in the pros. He's played both tackles and as an extra TE in Cincy. Perhaps he did it in college (I have no idea), but people assume he could just slot in.  The "assumed" he could play LT, because in fact, he actually played LT last year and performed well. I personally don't see him as a guard since I don't think he's shown himself to be nasty enough to handle the job inside.

      As I am going to assume, as previously mentioned, that he will be cut within days of the season ending. Taking a bad player and making him a starter somewhere else just to save a few dollars does not make sense. Not enough dollars, not enough sense.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Cutting Collins would be a mistake IMO.  He has value playing on the interiior and for depth.  Mistake was made by the regime in assuming he could play LT but compounding that by making another hole on the overall roster is worse.

      $6 mil a year for a guy better suited to be a versatile backup?  How much dead money are we talking about?

      $3 million. $3 million saved on the cap though. Re: alldayway...Collins has never played in the interior in the pros. He's played both tackles and as an extra TE in Cincy. Perhaps he did it in college (I have no idea), but people assume he could just slot in.  The "assumed" he could play LT, because in fact, he actually played LT last year and performed well. I personally don't see him as a guard since I don't think he's shown himself to be nasty enough to handle the job inside.

      As I am going to assume, as previously mentioned, that he will be cut within days of the season ending. Taking a bad player and making him a starter somewhere else just to save a few dollars does not make sense. Not enough dollars, not enough sense.

      I'm with you Garv.  Given his "versatility",  he'd have been playing RT or G last week if the Bucs wanted him back next year. You never want to pay dead money to anyone, but the Bucs contracts are set up so the total amount of dead money is likely minimal. We were at roughly $12 million in 2013 and 2014, and have $7 million already for next year (mostly Nicks and Mark Barron). In comparison, Atlanta had $10 million this year, Carolina $26 million, and New Orleans $16 million. The only obvious (high dollar - i.e., greater than $500k) dead money possibilities I see besides Collins are Goldson ($4 million dead money, $4 million cap savings), Michael Johnson ($7 million dead, $2 million cap savings). As bad as he played, I'd still be a bit surprised if they let Johnson go.  I'm also not as convinced Goldson will be dropped now that Barron is gone. He might be a pay-cut candidate.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 861

      Y’all really expect Lovie to cut them and admit his mistakes?Dream on!!!!

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Y'all really expect Lovie to cut them and admit his mistakes?Dream on!!!!

      Why not - he benched him. Could have used the injury rationale, but didn't. That's admitting a mistake.He resigned Casillas only to trade him for a ham sandwich. He's not going to wear a hair-shirt for you guys.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 795

      I just hope the overhaul of the offensive line starts with a new line coach……the simple fact that he coached Gilkey before and then Gilkey gets brought in here and actually starts some games tells me all I need to know

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4274

      Cutting Collins would be a mistake IMO.  He has value playing on the interiior and for depth.  Mistake was made by the regime in assuming he could play LT but compounding that by making another hole on the overall roster is worse.

      $6 mil a year for a guy better suited to be a versatile backup?  How much dead money are we talking about?

      Same argument was made with Zuttah and it cost the Bucs dearly in terms of depth and starting line up.  It even forced Licht's hand to trade for Mankins when Nicks bailed on the team. The savings can come the following year, when you secure Collins replacement and no dead money. Collins should be considered to kick on the inside because salvage value is better than no value.

      I can see Pamphill sticking around.I can't the same for Edwards, especially if the team is more aggressive in upgrading the OG spot and possibly kicking Collins to play on the inside.

      unlike his rookie year he is going to have to actually earn his roster spot next year in TC.

      Yeah Edwards showed a lot during camp, but still not enough to:1. Beat out Omameh to start at RG or Gilkey that rotates in2. Licht trading for MankinsIt may have been the plan to groom Edwards while Nicks acted as a stop gap.  But once that fell part, Edwards had to show he could play and he simply didn't.  In fairness though, I think Edwards would fair a lot better than Gilkey, who is just trash as a player.But as my premise I laid out earlier, a draft choice or two in the interior and UFA means he has a lot of competition and he doesn't seem likely to win a spot.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Of course Edwards has to show improvement to stick. He’s a 5th rounder. I think this is a truism of pretty much all teams - they set a value ($) on players, and if you are playing at or near it, you stick, and if you don't, you are gone. They aren't going to pay Collins $6 million to be a lousy stop-gap guard.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1324

      Of course Edwards has to show improvement to stick. He's a 5th rounder. I think this is a truism of pretty much all teams - they set a value ($) on players, and if you are playing at or near it, you stick, and if you don't, you are gone. They aren't going to pay Collins $6 million to be a lousy stop-gap guard.

      I should HOPE not and doubt they will. The problem remains that St. Lovie has NEVER valued offensive linemen highly (or QB's for that matter) and that should concern anyone who wants to see the Buccaneers HAVE an offense worth typing about..... let alone buying tickets to observe.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 3392

      Of course Edwards has to show improvement to stick. He's a 5th rounder. I think this is a truism of pretty much all teams - they set a value ($) on players, and if you are playing at or near it, you stick, and if you don't, you are gone. They aren't going to pay Collins $6 million to be a lousy stop-gap guard.

      I should HOPE not and doubt they will. The problem remains that St. Lovie has NEVER valued offensive linemen highly (or QB's for that matter) and that should concern anyone who wants to see the Buccaneers HAVE an offense worth typing about..... let alone buying tickets to observe.

      Where's the evidence of that? He (and Licht) brought in 2 fairly high-end OL because he recognized it was a weakness. We drafted 2 more, and then traded for Logan Mankins. The choices may be wrong, but he clearly values it  We can quibble about whether he had full control or just the normal HC input, in Chicago (seems like his control grew overtime), but the Bears drafted 2 OL in round 1 during his tenure (both in the latter years where he had more control). As for QBs, he inherited Rex Grossman (2003 first rounder); Kyle Orton was a 4th rounder in 2005. I suppose he could pulled the plug on Rex and taken Aaron Rodgers, but 23 other teams passed as well, including our Bucs led by QB guru Jon Gruden. The only other good QB the Bears passed on was Joe Flacco. They traded multiple picks for Jay Cutler the following offseason.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 4623

      Of course Edwards has to show improvement to stick. He's a 5th rounder. I think this is a truism of pretty much all teams - they set a value ($) on players, and if you are playing at or near it, you stick, and if you don't, you are gone. They aren't going to pay Collins $6 million to be a lousy stop-gap guard.

      I should HOPE not and doubt they will. The problem remains that St. Lovie has NEVER valued offensive linemen highly (or QB's for that matter) and that should concern anyone who wants to see the Buccaneers HAVE an offense worth typing about..... let alone buying tickets to observe.

      Where's the evidence of that? He (and Licht) brought in 2 fairly high-end OL because he recognized it was a weakness. We drafted 2 more, and then traded for Logan Mankins. The choices may be wrong, but he clearly values it  We can quibble about whether he had full control or just the normal HC input, in Chicago (seems like his control grew overtime), but the Bears drafted 2 OL in round 1 during his tenure (both in the latter years where he had more control). As for QBs, he inherited Rex Grossman (2003 first rounder); Kyle Orton was a 4th rounder in 2005. I suppose he could pulled the plug on Rex and taken Aaron Rodgers, but 23 other teams passed as well, including our Bucs led by QB guru Jon Gruden. The only other good QB the Bears passed on was Joe Flacco. They traded multiple picks for Jay Cutler the following offseason.

      Stupid facts.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 1858

      Of course Edwards has to show improvement to stick. He's a 5th rounder. I think this is a truism of pretty much all teams - they set a value ($) on players, and if you are playing at or near it, you stick, and if you don't, you are gone. They aren't going to pay Collins $6 million to be a lousy stop-gap guard.

      I should HOPE not and doubt they will. The problem remains that St. Lovie has NEVER valued offensive linemen highly (or QB's for that matter) and that should concern anyone who wants to see the Buccaneers HAVE an offense worth typing about..... let alone buying tickets to observe.

      Where's the evidence of that? He (and Licht) brought in 2 fairly high-end OL because he recognized it was a weakness. We drafted 2 more, and then traded for Logan Mankins. The choices may be wrong, but he clearly values it  We can quibble about whether he had full control or just the normal HC input, in Chicago (seems like his control grew overtime), but the Bears drafted 2 OL in round 1 during his tenure (both in the latter years where he had more control). As for QBs, he inherited Rex Grossman (2003 first rounder); Kyle Orton was a 4th rounder in 2005. I suppose he could pulled the plug on Rex and taken Aaron Rodgers, but 23 other teams passed as well, including our Bucs led by QB guru Jon Gruden. The only other good QB the Bears passed on was Joe Flacco. They traded multiple picks for Jay Cutler the following offseason.

      He valued offensive lineman, but I think there's a strong argument he was terrible at identifying/developing them.I'd also argue that 9 years is a long time to evaluate an NFL coach and gives you a very good idea of who he is.  I, and I'll blame the media here too, didn't do a good enough job looking objectively at Lovie's track record.  I bought into the "He learned on the couch" narrative.The truth is that Lovie has a very good history with defences.  He'll likely have a very good defence here next year as well.  But he has a horrible track record with offences.  With OCs, with QBs, with OL.  As bad as Chicago's offence has been this year, it's still ranked 14th by FO which is better than Lovie ever managed.  It's not that he doesn't care about these positions, it's that he can't identify/develop/coach these positions.As for specifically QB, Lovie's job is to find one.  He had 9 years to do so. That's a REALLY long time in the NFL.  And as someone else pointed out, he's made the playoffs in 3/10 seasons.  I'm not going to pull up how that compares to modern coaches (someone else feel free) but that's not very good. 

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