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    • michael89156

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      Are There Any Truly Elite Quarterbacks In The NFL Today? By Kenneth Jackson Sr June 16, 2014    7:38 pm  elite_zps10db1a3c.png  One of the most contentious and debated topics in professional football circles has been and is the designation of NFL Quarterbacks as “Elite.” Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan and others have been confronted during “on air” interviews with the question “Are you an ‘Elite’ Quarterback?” In each case, the slightly embarrassed, “ambushed” Quarterback dodges the question (Ryan), half answers it (Flacco) or answers the question by declaring himself “Elite” (Eli Manning). Of course the question is both subjective and loaded. No one, in or outside of the NFL, can definitively explain what an “Elite” Quarterback is, nor can they identify a universal ly recognized criterion for determining if a Quarterback is or is not “Elite.”This debate, which is primarily driven by media organizations and their desire to stir debate and controversy, would have some merit, if the contracts for starting Quarterbacks reflected the quality of their “body of work”. However, NFL contracts are based more on potential and projected success rather than the quality of the players’ work to date. Because of this dynamic, largely unproven players like Colin Kaepernick, Cam Newton and Andy Dalton expect to be paid commensurate with Rogers, Brady and Brees.So the debate; this wrestling match of opinions and conjecture, continues. Does the NFL have any truly “Elite” Quarterbacks and, if so, who are they? In an attempt to answer that question, I developed a criterion for “Elite” passers. I then reviewed the career passing records for Quarterbacks that qualified and were “full time” starters in 2013. To be included on this list, a Quarterback had to spend at least three years as a full time starter and the player’s entire body of work in the NFL was considered. Any year in which there were no statistics was not counted (e.g. entire years that were missed with injuries, years the player was on the roster but did not play, etc.) and no rushing statistics were included.The statistics used for compiling the list of “Elite” passers was obtained solely from the official NFL.com website and only included regular season numbers. Seven criteria were used to make the evaluation: pass completion percentage (64% or higher), yards per completion (minimum of 7.5), yards per game (at least 250), touchdowns per season (25 minimum), touchdown percentage based on attempts (5% or more), interception percentage based on attempts (2.5% or lower ) and passer rating (95.0 or higher). Using these criteria, only four current NFL Quarterbacks qualified as “Elite”:• Aaron Rogers (Green Bay Packers)• Peyton Manning (Denver Broncos)• Tom Brady (New England Patriots)• Drew Brees (New Orleans Saints)Aaron Rogers has a career passer rating of 104.9 which is by far the best in the league. He has a career pass completion rate of 65.8%; second only to Drew Brees’ 65.9%. Rogers throws a touchdown pass on 6.4% of his attempts but only threw an interception on 1.8% of his attempts. Both figures are the best among NFL starters that qualified. Rogers has also thrown for 257 passing yards per game averaging 8.2 yards per completion (best among the “Elite” passers.)Peyton Manning, who has long been recognized as an “Elite” passer is second only to Aaron Rogers (based on career statistics). Manning has a passer rating of 97.2 with a completion rate of 65.6%. He leads the pack in average career touchdowns per season with 33 and leads Rogers in yards per game with 271. However, he trails Rogers in TD percentage (5.8%), yards per completion (7.7) and interception rate (2.6%).The third Quarterback in our list of “Elite” passers is Tom Brady. Brady sports a passer rating of 95.7 with a pass completion rate of 63.4% and throws an average of 26 touchdowns per year. He averages 254 yards per game with 5.0% of his attempts resulting in touchdowns and only 2.0% of those attempts resulting in interceptions.Our last “Elite” passer is Drew Brees who has a passer rating of 95.3 and a completion rate of 65.9% (best among the “Elite” passers.) Over his career, Brees has averaged 275 yards per game resulting in 28 touchdowns per season and a touchdown rate of 5.3% of attempted passes. His interception rate of 2.6% of attempts is a bit high but his prolific passing numbers make up for this shortcoming.Two other Quarterbacks fell just below the threshold for “Elite” passers: Philip Rivers (San Diego Chargers) and Tony Romo (Dallas Cowboys). In addition, Matt Ryan (Atlanta Falcons) and Ben Roethlisberger (Pittsburgh Steelers) graded out as “Quality” passers while Joe Flacco (Baltimore Ravens), Cam Newton (Carolina Panthers), Andy Dalton (Cincinnati Bengals), Sam Bradford (St. Louis Rams) and Matt Schaub (Oakland Raiders) fell into the “Above Average” category of our evaluation.This list probably will not quiet any of the debate about which NFL Quarterbacks should be considered “Elite”; however, it is a start in establishing a base line for use of the term “Elite” in evaluating the passing skills of Quarterbacks in the NFL. This list can and probably will change from year to year as new Quarterbacks like Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick and Robert Griffin III qualify. “Elite” is truly in the eyes of the “beholder”; however, going forward, we will at least have a clearer picture of what we are seeing in NFL Quarterbacks.link

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 11506

      “The statistics used for compiling the list of “Elite” passers was obtained solely from the official NFL.com website and only included regular season numbers. Seven criteria were used to make the evaluation: pass completion percentage (64% or higher), yards per completion (minimum of 7.5), yards per game (at least 250), touchdowns per season (25 minimum), touchdown percentage based on attempts (5% or more), interception percentage based on attempts (2.5% or lower ) and passer rating (95.0 or higher). Using these criteria, only four current NFL Quarterbacks qualified as “Elite”:• Aaron Rogers (Green Bay Packers)• Peyton Manning (Denver Broncos)• Tom Brady (New England Patriots)• Drew Brees (New Orleans Saints) "FRG mad .

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    • Anonymous

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      3 of those 4 elites dominate their division…

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2847

          I’d put Brees and Rodgers on top for sure. For what it’s worth… And neither was drafted in the top half of the 1st round… :o

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1455

      Those are the 4 guys I would name but the criteria has some issues for me, you could have an elite QB but if you have a great ground game too you’re not as likely to see the yardage or number of TDs in a season.I'd remove those 2 criteria because they are more down to the overall number of attempts rather than what you did with them, it's not so much about overall production but more about efficiency while having at least a minimum number of attempts. Even then it doesn't account for the #1 thing, something that can't be measured with stats, that grit/desire where on the very few times their team could be down BIG you'd still not say the game is over until the final whistle, not just a passion to win but a refusal to lose. I'd take that over any stat you can give me from NFL.com.

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    • Anonymous

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      Those are the 4 guys I would name but the criteria has some issues for me, you could have an elite QB but if you have a great ground game too you're not as likely to see the yardage or number of TDs in a season.I'd remove those 2 criteria because they are more down to the overall number of attempts rather than what you did with them, it's not so much about overall production but more about efficiency while having at least a minimum number of attempts. Even then it doesn't account for the #1 thing, something that can't be measured with stats, that grit/desire where on the very few times their team could be down BIG you'd still not say the game is over until the final whistle, not just a passion to win but a refusal to lose. I'd take that over any stat you can give me from NFL.com.

      I tend to agree with what you are saying, but guys like Andrew Luck have that passion and intensity as well...but Im not quite ready to label them as elite even though that is probably a year or two away.

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    • Anonymous

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      "The statistics used for compiling the list of “Elite” passers was obtained solely from the official NFL.com website and only included regular season numbers. Seven criteria were used to make the evaluation: pass completion percentage (64% or higher), yards per completion (minimum of 7.5), yards per game (at least 250), touchdowns per season (25 minimum), touchdown percentage based on attempts (5% or more), interception percentage based on attempts (2.5% or lower ) and passer rating (95.0 or higher). Using these criteria, only four current NFL Quarterbacks qualified as “Elite”:• Aaron Rogers (Green Bay Packers)• Peyton Manning (Denver Broncos)• Tom Brady (New England Patriots)• Drew Brees (New Orleans Saints) "FRG mad .

      This list illustrates the importance of having other pieces.  It's a great list and the only names you could put on it but, there are only 6 rings produced by these QBs and Brady has not won one in 10 seasons after winning three early. 

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    • Anonymous

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      Those are the 4 guys I would name but the criteria has some issues for me, you could have an elite QB but if you have a great ground game too you're not as likely to see the yardage or number of TDs in a season.I'd remove those 2 criteria because they are more down to the overall number of attempts rather than what you did with them, it's not so much about overall production but more about efficiency while having at least a minimum number of attempts. Even then it doesn't account for the #1 thing, something that can't be measured with stats, that grit/desire where on the very few times their team could be down BIG you'd still not say the game is over until the final whistle, not just a passion to win but a refusal to lose. I'd take that over any stat you can give me from NFL.com.

      I tend to agree with what you are saying, but guys like Andrew Luck have that passion and intensity as well...but Im not quite ready to label them as elite even though that is probably a year or two away.

      couldn't agree more about Luck, it's just a matter of time before all the other tools (which he has) catch up with that inner fire and make him one of the "Chosen Ones."It's just something you measure or even see, it's hard to put into words but you know it's there, it's.... "IT"If you could measure "IT" you would never have draft busts or steals.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1658

      "The statistics used for compiling the list of “Elite” passers was obtained solely from the official NFL.com website and only included regular season numbers. Seven criteria were used to make the evaluation: pass completion percentage (64% or higher), yards per completion (minimum of 7.5), yards per game (at least 250), touchdowns per season (25 minimum), touchdown percentage based on attempts (5% or more), interception percentage based on attempts (2.5% or lower ) and passer rating (95.0 or higher). Using these criteria, only four current NFL Quarterbacks qualified as “Elite”:• Aaron Rogers (Green Bay Packers)• Peyton Manning (Denver Broncos)• Tom Brady (New England Patriots)• Drew Brees (New Orleans Saints) "FRG mad .

      This list illustrates the importance of having other pieces.  It's a great list and the only names you could put on it but, there are only 6 rings produced by these QBs and Brady has not won one in 10 seasons after winning three early.

      At the same time, they're also very much regular visitors to the playoffs.  Any player can get hot at the right time (*coughFlaccocough*), but there's no single factor that help more in a team at least having a chance at a ring than having a genuinely elite quarterback.

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    • Anonymous

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      Fans throw that elite word around way too much. Russell Wilson elite? Don’t get me wrong, love the guy, but lets see a little more sample size before crowning him elite.

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    • Anonymous

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      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB’s are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

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    • Anonymous

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      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      +1

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1845

      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2630

      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1845

      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

      Maybe it's just the fact that I hate Dallas, that I'm not giving Romo the bump :)

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2775

      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

      Maybe it's just the fact that I hate Dallas, that I'm not giving Romo the bump :)

      No kidding.  If he was on any other team I wouldn't have a problem with the guy.  Crazy how un-clutch someone so good can be.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 3028

      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

      Maybe it's just the fact that I hate Dallas, that I'm not giving Romo the bump :)

      No kidding.  If he was on any other team I wouldn't have a problem with the guy.  Crazy how un-clutch someone so good can be.

      Romo is more likely to give you a 400 yard game, but he is also more likely to give you a 4 int game.  I would take Eli and his 2 rings any day of the week.

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    • Anonymous

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      Oh yeah, Eli>Romo for me. Last year was a big time speed bump but I’ll take the QB that can win big games.

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    • Anonymous

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      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

      Maybe it's just the fact that I hate Dallas, that I'm not giving Romo the bump :)

      No kidding.  If he was on any other team I wouldn't have a problem with the guy.  Crazy how un-clutch someone so good can be.

      Romo is more likely to give you a 400 yard game, but he is also more likely to give you a 4 int game.  I would take Eli and his 2 rings any day of the week.

      Eli Manning is pretty much the definition of inconsistent and is an interception machine. The only reason people have him in their top 10 is because of the rings. And moose, most people would probably have Eli over Romo, I just think people put way too much emphasis on rings when comparing players (especially QB's).

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1845

      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

      Maybe it's just the fact that I hate Dallas, that I'm not giving Romo the bump :)

      No kidding.  If he was on any other team I wouldn't have a problem with the guy.  Crazy how un-clutch someone so good can be.

      Romo is more likely to give you a 400 yard game, but he is also more likely to give you a 4 int game.  I would take Eli and his 2 rings any day of the week.

      Eli Manning is pretty much the definition of inconsistent and is an interception machine. The only reason people have him in their top 10 is because of the rings. And moose, most people would probably have Eli over Romo, I just think people put way too much emphasis on rings when comparing players (especially QB's).

      I mean for me, I honestly think Eli and Romo are similar qbs, not too flashy, but get the job done type of qbs, who get snake bitten from time to time.  There's just that Dallas stink on Romo :)  I'd take him on my team (if I was a GM/ owner)and for some reason I let the spoiled rotten bitch move from Eli and his dad at draft time go. (that should taint him a bit)

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    • Anonymous

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      Article is spot on. The only 4 elite QB's are Rodgers, Brady, Manning and Brees. After those 4, there is a pretty big drop off. I think it's hilarious how some people think Russell Wilson is on the cusp of being elite. Amazing what being the QB of a Super Bowl team will do to your reputation. Flacco gets one of the biggest deals in NFL history and some people now think Wilson may be the 5th best QB in the game. I think he barely cracks the top 10.

      the top 10 for me: Not in specific order, but groupedELITE:P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, BradyFranchise:Luck (maybe a little more work from him, but I think he's on the cusp of being elite), Ryan, Kaepernick, Rivers, E Manning, Big BenHonorable Mention: Romo, Dalton, Wilson, and possibly Foles(if he continues to play well)

      I personally think Romo is better than Eli so that would probably be my top 10. Probably would switch Wilson and Kap for the #10 spot too, but it's very close.

      Maybe it's just the fact that I hate Dallas, that I'm not giving Romo the bump :)

      No kidding.  If he was on any other team I wouldn't have a problem with the guy.  Crazy how un-clutch someone so good can be.

      Romo is more likely to give you a 400 yard game, but he is also more likely to give you a 4 int game.  I would take Eli and his 2 rings any day of the week.

      Eli Manning is pretty much the definition of inconsistent and is an interception machine. The only reason people have him in their top 10 is because of the rings. And moose, most people would probably have Eli over Romo, I just think people put way too much emphasis on rings when comparing players (especially QB's).

      Rings matter a lot.  They are why the game is played.

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    • Anonymous

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      Rings matter a lot.  They are why the game is played.

      Individual players are still just individual players.  (Dan Marino >>>>> Trent Dilfer)Plus, as little as we like to admit it, luck plays a non-trivial factor in the game.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2630

      Rings matter a lot.  They are why the game is played.

      Individual players are still just individual players.  (Dan Marino >>>>> Trent Dilfer)Plus, as little as we like to admit it, luck plays a non-trivial factor in the game.

      This.It's a team sport. If we're gonna base it off rings, Eli Manning is better than his brother.

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    • Anonymous

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      Rings matter a lot.  They are why the game is played.

      Individual players are still just individual players.  (Dan Marino >>>>> Trent Dilfer)Plus, as little as we like to admit it, luck plays a non-trivial factor in the game.

      This.It's a team sport. If we're gonna base it off rings, Eli Manning is better than his brother.

      It's never about the individual players, it's about the team that's what makes the game so great.  Theoretically I would rather be a fan of the Giants than the Collts/Broncos because the Giants have reached eternal greatness twice with Eli while Peyton has done it once.  I love the process, probably more than I should, but the end result is what matters.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 2630

      Rings matter a lot.  They are why the game is played.

      Individual players are still just individual players.  (Dan Marino >>>>> Trent Dilfer)Plus, as little as we like to admit it, luck plays a non-trivial factor in the game.

      This.It's a team sport. If we're gonna base it off rings, Eli Manning is better than his brother.

      It's never about the individual players, it's about the team that's what makes the game so great.  Theoretically I would rather be a fan of the Giants than the Collts/Broncos because the Giants have reached eternal greatness twice with Eli while Peyton has done it once.  I love the process, probably more than I should, but the end result is what matters.

      I definitely agree with that. The Lombardi is what you play for and as a fan, that's what matters most and why you have so much passion for you team. Judging and comparing individual players based of rings though is silly because there are so many other factors that go into it.

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    • Anonymous

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      Agreed.

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    • Anonymous

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      Eli is better than Romo. Romo is a huge Choker.

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    • Anonymous

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      Once the big 3 retire, it looks like Rodgers, Luck, and Foles will be your elite guys.Ryan will get called elite due to numbers, but he just doesn't put the team on his back like the others. There's still time to change that though.

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    • Anonymous

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      Once the big 3 retire, it looks like Rodgers, Luck, and Glennon will be your elite guys.

      FIFY

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    • Anonymous

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      Once the big 3 retire, it looks like Rodgers, Luck, and Glennon will be your elite guys.

      FIFY

      Really? Come on man. I'm pretty sure that even the Red Board's two notorious Glennon-Slurpers themselves, aren't that delusional.

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 1658

      Once the big 3 retire, it looks like Rodgers, Luck, and Glennon will be your elite guys.

      FIFY

      Really? Come on man. I'm pretty sure that even the Red Board's two notorious Glennon-Slurpers themselves, aren't that delusional.

      https://www.pewterreport.com/Boards/index.php/topic,1309151.0.html

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    • Anonymous

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      Once the big 3 retire, it looks like Rodgers, Luck, and Glennon will be your elite guys.

      FIFY

      Really? Come on man. I'm pretty sure that even the Red Board's two notorious Glennon-Slurpers themselves, aren't that delusional.

      https://www.pewterreport.com/Boards/index.php/topic,1309151.0.html

      LOL!

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    • Anonymous

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      Post count: 11506

      LMAO

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    • Anonymous

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      Once the big 3 retire, it looks like Rodgers, Luck, and Glennon will be your elite guys.

      FIFY

      I don't speak obscure acronyms. Sorry.

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    • Anonymous

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      FIFY

      ??

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    • Anonymous

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      fixed it for you?

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    • Anonymous

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      ahhh, thnx

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    • Anonymous

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      That acronym is used on this board by someone just about everyday . LolzFunny what some people miss.

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