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    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      This is a serious question I’m curious about.

      Arians has made a number of bad gameday decisions. The latest was him wasting a time out on challenging a play after being out of challenges. Then he offers some dumb, clearly untrue reason about this one time Marvin Lewis did it.

      Then what I see are a bunch of puff pieces from people like SR and Gregg Auman explaining Arians decision without being critical.

      Am I missing something or is the media completely in Arians pocket? Are local beat writers too captive to the team to actually ask serious and interesting questions?

      P s. Didn’t a PR writer say they were going to ask Arians about who the best play caller was? Was that question even asked

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      They are not this aloof.

      They are not this negligent.

      They know the difference between “covering a team” and “being a mouthpiece for a regime.”

      The only way the data fits reality is they are protecting their access and/or they are bedfellows with certain coaches/players that this regime protects.

      As such, unfortunately, I don’t know where to put them but the “forfeiture of all credibility” bin.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      “Am I missing something or is the media completely in Arians pocket? Are local beat writers too captive to the team to actually ask serious and interesting questions?”

      I doubt they are in the pocket, although access is always important, but query whether the issues you raise would be interesting enough now (as opposed to later if/when hes fired) to run a story? I am not sure that day-to-day fans would care as much about that now as many here would because the people here are mostly hardcore and/or very knowledgeable.

      fair point though and I could be wrong, but why pick a fight over that point now, if you’re the local reporter?

    • Pennywise

      Participant
      Post count: 10548

      Local media plays paddy cake with ba,their job depends on it.

      Yet it’s always the national media with the scoop,vern today being a example…then the local media tweets,I can confirm…lol

    • Havok904

      Participant
      Post count: 13021

      Maybe not in the newspaper, but he’s getting fired up online and social media.

    • Pennywise

      Participant
      Post count: 10548

      Who is?

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6953

      Why doesn’t the media call Arians out?

      The simple answer is they are gutless.  Most on here knew Arians’ answer was b/s, yet these reporters didn’t?  I find that hard to believe.

    • 3rd String Kicker

      Moderator
      Post count: 1115

      I’d say it’s swept under a rug because we won the game, had we lost, I think gloves come off. Access, Politics and the red tape of it may play a role as well, striking a balance of risk and reward of challenging the head coach in what was fortunately a winning effort.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 335

      Maybe they’ve given Arians some leeway since he’s been a two-time Coy.   But my impression of Encina and Stroud is they’re fans.  Stroud had issues with some player who he criticized during the best days. Not sure where that went. He sounds giddy and happy on his podcasts after Bucs wins. Maybe Stroud will become more critical after the first 5-11 season.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      Honestly, I’m not even looking for being critical.

      I’m just looking for accuracy and actual investigative journalism.

      Right now it feels like the propaganda wing of The Buccaneers Party.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7594

      Greg Auman is fairly responsive on twitter. I asked him about Perriman and he chatted with me for a bit.

      Wonder what he has to say…

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      Greg Auman is fairly responsive on twitter. I asked him about Perriman and he chatted with me for a bit.

      Wonder what he has to say…

      What was his response as to why Perriman wasn’t cut to recoup a comp pick for his complete (and predictable) lack of production?

      Apologetic to the regime?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      “ Right now it feels like the propaganda wing of The Buccaneers Party”

      Remember this when the HC is fired.

      It’s a fair point but most covering the Bucs are reporters so they think of their jobs and politics, just like most other professions.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 335

      Right now it feels like the propaganda wing of The Buccaneers Party.

      Small market team, small market media. I can see where being highly critical of the Bucs head coach early in his tenure would get you the cold shoulder, lack of access, etc.

       

      Besides, that challenge flag is really inconsequential.   But they (Stroud/Encina/Auman) ought to do some draft-year follow-up stories on Licht. Particularly the 2016 where only Ryan Smith is left, and he’s on shaky grounds. Some applied heat to Licht is well-deserved. But Arians is still pretty early in his tenure and hasn’t done anything that warrants much uproar by the press.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2134

      These ‘journalists’ whine when papers close and people lose their jobs but the reality most of them are imminently replaceable and add no real value.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      Really interesting discussion.

      Honestly, I’m not even looking for being critical.

      I’m just looking for accuracy and actual investigative journalism.

      Right now it feels like the propaganda wing of The Buccaneers Party.

      This is exactly how I feel.

      The point is not that the local media needs to be writing highly critical pieces every week. It’s that they’re writing puff pieces for the team and failing to think of and ask interesting questions.

      There’s so much high quality football information out there now. Whether you want to learn about match quarters, 4th down decision making, team organizations, or just basic investigative journalism its out there.

      I find I’m consuming less and less beat writers because the interesting, thoughtful and honest pieces are coming from non-beat writers. The quality is no longer there. Which is a shame, because I want to support and engage with local media.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      I’ll add too that I get far, far more from posters on this board than from local media.

      That includes learning a lot more about football, the NFL and the team. Nobody is a great example, but far from the only poster.

      The quality of a number of posters here, for free, is often better information than we’re getting from local media.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      That is exactly how I feel @tog .

      1) I WANT to support local writers, periodicals et al. I’m not saying these things out of anything other than disappointment.

      2) Engaging with other parties (posters on this board, elsewhere) is a far more satisfying, informative experience. That doesn’t bode well for professional (NFL or local) media.

    • Havok904

      Participant
      Post count: 13021

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      @nobody

      You’ve got to get on twitter. The quality of the football discussion (especially on the analytics side) is pretty amazing. It’s my go to for football info.

    • BP1

      Participant
      Post count: 1678

      Here’s something to ponder. I wonder  how long a beat reporter would be able to hold onto their press credentials from the team once they started arguing with a head coach and calling him a liar?

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6953

      Here’s something to ponder. I wonder how long a beat reporter would be able to hold onto their press credentials from the team once they started arguing with a head coach and calling him a liar?

      There is a way to ask pertinent follow-up questions without flat-out calling Arians a liar.  He’s the HC, he can take some heat for screwing up. He might not like it, but a good reporter should ask those pointed questions.

    • BP1

      Participant
      Post count: 1678

      There is a way to ask pertinent follow-up questions without flat-out calling Arians a liar. He’s the HC, he can take some heat for screwing up. He might not like it, but a good reporter should ask those pointed questions.

      Give an example of how you would have followed up with BA’s answer to why he threw the 3rd review flag without it sounding like you are calling him a liar?

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6953

      BP, I typed out a long-ass post and this crappy message board ate it.  I’ll try to address you again tomorrow.

    • GoldsonAges

      Participant
      Post count: 2971

      To their credit the media did ask Arians about the challenge flag. He gave his answer and not sure what else could have been asked after that.

      Arains said NBA coaches get ejected regularly to prove a point about the bad officiating and that was his intent. That was his answer like it or not. How do you follow up that answer? As a professional reporter I mean, not how would a rabid message board fan follow up.

      GottaJaboo wrote:
      (Justin) Evans will be far superior to (Budda) Baker in the pros.

      Dan Skipper Sucks! (lost bet)
      Update – UDFA Dan Skipper has been signed by the Dallas Cowboys

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 2134

      @tog

      Got a list of pertinent people to follow on Twitter?

    • BP1

      Participant
      Post count: 1678

      BP, I typed out a long-ass post and this crappy message board ate it. I’ll try to address you again tomorrow.

      If you use the “quote” it will only let you quote one poster at a time. You have to delete the other prior quotes before submitting.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 335

      if the Bucs were 6-3, instead of 3-6, I think many of you would be touting what he did as being progressive, ingenious…..but expectations of  Arians haven’t been met, I can see the mob already turning on him….such is the life of a Bucs fan once the honeymoon phase is overwith…..

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      The frustration is understandable but most of the posts misunderstand the work of a beat writer. It’s certainly not to put a HC in his place for lying (at least not middle of first season).

    • BuccaNOLEer

      Blocked
      Post count: 1046

      He’s probably getting a pass because it’s his first year.  IMO, he shouldn’t.  He isn’t any better than Koetter at this point.   In fact, he’s worse in a lot of ways.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      To @VirgilCaine and @BP1:

      It’s not about calling Arians out for “lying”.

      It’s asking real, tough questions. The play cost a timeout which very easily could’ve been a decisive factor in that game. When Arians gives his answer, challenge it. It’s what a reporter is supposed to do.

      Real reporting is about both recording what happened but also challenging the narrative.

      Instead, to pick on Auman, he wrote a whole puff piece regurgitating what Arians said. At no point is there a serious discussion of the foolishness of Arians position. Again, you don’t have to title it “Arians is a Liar”.

      And we see this time and time again. We see the same thing with Licht. We saw it when he blamed the previous staff for “not communicating” their needs. The local media, whether for access, laziness, or lack of talent has largely become a mouthpiece of the Buccaneers, uncritically reporting what is said.

      Regurgitating the party line isn’t reporting. That’s just being a staff writer.

    • Havok904

      Participant
      Post count: 13021

    • GoldsonAges

      Participant
      Post count: 2971

      @tog give us a good follow up question to ask Arians.

      He also said he used the flag as a way to call timeout he was going to call anyway.

      Winston also said he and others were calling timeout at the same time anyway.

      If you think he’s lying that’s fine but what is the follow up question? They were well prepared with their answers.

      GottaJaboo wrote:
      (Justin) Evans will be far superior to (Budda) Baker in the pros.

      Dan Skipper Sucks! (lost bet)
      Update – UDFA Dan Skipper has been signed by the Dallas Cowboys

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      @butters

      In terms of twitter follows, some of my favorites (and always looking for recommendations):

      General
      @smartfootball (my #1 football follow)
      @fieldgulls (seahawks focused, but very good)
      @tednguyen (The Athletic’s film guy)
      @scottkacsmar
      @billbarnwell

      Analytics
      @benbbaldwin (my favorite analytics follow right now)
      @edjsports (GWC% changes)
      @friscojosh (salty)
      @fo_aschatz (FootballOutsiders)
      @fbgchase

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      @tog

      I get where you’re coming from but this is not really true:

      “It’s what a reporter is supposed to do.”

      I would hazard a guess that the long serving Times beat writer for the Bucs knows way more than he reports and part of that comes from access …

    • The Anti-Java

      Participant
      Post count: 7089

      There used to be a couple media guys who were critical of the Bucs, and they both are gone now. Coincidence? I think not. I think one of them is in Detroit now covering the Lions.
      And there was a media person that would screw with Koetter on the regular. It was hard to get Koetter riled up, but man oh man, there was bad blood there.
      So bottom line, its a fine line to question certain decisions, and stay on the teams good side where you get access, or get shut out because they think you are a dick.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      Right, AJ is describing the reality. Much of the thread is idealism. Understandable for true fans, but still not really way things would work (at least not this early on)

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      Its not clear to me that the protocol of these press conferences allows for follow-ups. But if they do allow for it, here would be a pretty natural follow-up to that explanation:

      “Bruce, just to clarify. You established in a prior press conference, and the league at large has established it, that these calls just don’t get overturned. The clock was stopped due to the pass being incomplete. You had no Challenges left. Using a Challenge with no Challenges left costs either penalty yardage or a Timeout.

      Are you implying that your thought process was something like ‘its worth it to lose 10 yards or spend a Timeout right now because protesting this refereeing may possibly afford us beneficial refereeing later on?’

      Is that it?”

      That would be what I would want. Hard, focused, clarification of his thinking. Because that is a hell of a thing to concretely say…and it sounds (and is) ridiculous in terms of game management and strategy.

      Further, again, its the lack of creativity and interesting questions in Press Conferences that bother me. Jameis didn’t run the football at all for the first 7 games of the year. It was the most obvious and awkward thing imaginable. He would not challenge the line of scrimmage and he was taking endless coverage Sacks and needless hits, crippling down and distance, not sustaining drives with 1st down pick-ups when they were there to be had with his feet, and exposing himself to injury.

      Now, suddenly, in the last 2 weeks he is back playing how he used to. Challenging the line of scrimmage. Picking up crucial yards for 1st downs or to stay ahead of down and distance. Not taking coverage Sacks over and over. He looks like his pocket feel has returned.

      What has changed? Why is this question just not asked?

      On the whole though, personally, my issue isn’t really press conferences. Its puff-piece, squishy, anti-thoughtful and anti-analytics, clearly in the thrall of coach/player/GM x, y, z journalism that bothers me.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      And let me also say that if my litmus test for sports journalism is unreasonable…

      that’s fine!

      I don’t have to partake of it (and I overwhelmingly do not at this point)!

      I just may not be the correct audience!

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      On the whole though, personally, my issue isn’t really press conferences. Its puff-piece, squishy, anti-thoughtful and anti-analytics, clearly in the thrall of coach/player/GM x, y, z journalism that bothers me.

      Exactly this.

      The point is not that should’ve called Arians a “liar” in a press conference. That’s a strawman.

      The point is that beat writers can, but do not, offer challenging, critical, and educational.

      The Bucs are, and have been, a disaster. Rather then engaging critically with that, producing well-thought out pieces that engage with the issues and seek to understand them we get “Blame Morris/Schiano/Lovie/Koetter…”

      Its nonsense. And it could be so much better, because guess what, just like how teams can consistently win in the NFL, so can beat writers. You don’t have to settle for whatever trash the Bucs spew out.

    • Hockey Duckie

      Participant
      Post count: 1544

      I often listen to the PewterCast with Brent and Ren.  Both had an interesting answer about reporters and questions:  they have an article already in mind and seek answers to fulfill that article.

      It makes sense.  They want to have a unique article compared to others.  And since the Bucs came away with the win, they’d want to ride that “click” wave.  There are only a minority that can accept the win and know where improvement is needed.  Arians did cut VH3, but Arians is also the head coach who’s supported by GM Licht.  These writers depend on access.  So they might know better than to ask Arians a particular thing or how to ask it.

      I know under Koetter, you have to ask a question in a scientific way than one armed with an agenda.  Koetter will eat you up if it’s an agenda.

      But BA answered the question truthfully.  That probably stunned the reporters who probably were dumbfounded at the truth of the answer to not have a follow-up.  It didn’t cost the team a win at the end, so why kick up unnecessary dirt if you’re a local beat writer.

      When I saw this title, I thought it was with respect to Arians saying, “the secondary is fixed”, but to only cut VH3 this week.  LoL

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      @nobody and @tog

      Interesting topic and I actually agree with your point and the frustration, but I think if you could step outside yourselves (analytical, knowledgeable fans) it would be pretty clear why your typical beat writer might not offer Nobody’s proposed follow up based solely on Nobody’s own offered motivation:

      “ That would be what I would want. Hard, focused, clarification of his thinking. Because that is a hell of a thing to concretely say…and it sounds (and is) ridiculous in terms of game management and strategy.”

      In other words, the typical beat writer/local reporter (not journalist) is thriving on access so they wouldn’t share the motivation (at least not now) to, in essence, box Arians in and/or to make him look foolish to the masses (their audience)

      Again, I agree with the thoughts, the frustration and even the desire to have someone press Arians, but the typical person covering the Bucs locally is not a Woodward or Bernstein, they are just reporters doing a job of reporting the news, which sometimes includes implausible responses and comments.

      Judy my .02

    • Pennywise

      Participant
      Post count: 10548

      Which beat writer covering the lions?

      Stephen holder’s covers colts.

      Drawing a blank on one covering the lions.

    • Trask Force

      Participant
      Post count: 4107

      I am an Arians fan. He is the best coach we’ve had since Gruden by far, which isn’t saying much but still he’s a good coach and ya’ll are overreacting to the record we have this year.  Some of you apparently thought he was going to take this mess to the promised land in one year.  That’s your mistake.  Arians has made a couple bonehead moves, but generally he is building something, and I’m glad he is the coach. I’m all on board the Arians train.

      But as for PR.  Here’s the thing.  You know they are around One Buc a lot and “hear things.”  Whether its about VH3 or McCoy or whatever.  They hear things and don’t report them to the fans on their website and/or don’t pursue.   But their job is to inform the fans that read their website.  And so I don’t have confidence that I’m getting the whole story when I read this site.  I get the sense they know stuff and don’t tell us, or they know they could pursue something and don’t.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      This is the Bucs beat writer (reporter) covering the termination of Koetter FOR THE TIMES

      https://www.tampabay.com/main/2018/12/30/bucs-fire-coach-dirk-koetter/

      Read the article. This is with the HC gone. Pretty straight reporting. Passing mention of Smith

      If you follow Stroud on twitter or listened to him on the radio (offering opinion) he knew a lot more than what found its way into this article

      I think he’s been beat writer since Dungy? Longer maybe. He is a respected reporter

      Frankly, this is part of why there are now so many awesome smaller sources all over the Internet. The info (arguably) isn’t as reliable but it’s much more diverse

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      @calcuttarain

      Yeah.

      I think that is the crux of it.

      On the bright side (for me personally), there is a broad range of sources/perspectives/areas of expertise out there for sports related issues. So we don’t have to rely upon local media.

      My real issue here isn’t so much the microcosm that is Tampa media. I just have a problem with narrative massaging and slanted journalism generally. Humans are so easily seduced (I remember the last time I was wrong on a large issue for many years and it haunts me from an intellectual framework). I hate beholding the process of it and I hate the cultural outputs of it. Sport is a very illuminating cross-section of that phenomenon.

    • Havok904

      Participant
      Post count: 13021

      What you guys are complaining about happens league wide not just here.

      You ask a question that management feels is a setup for an embarrassing answer or episode, your media access gets limited.

      There is no such a thing as fan’s rights, especially in regards to access to team information.

      A reporter that pisses off a coach or manager, is screwed and most likely their next gig will be covering High School sports.

      That’s the way it is.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      @Nobody

      Well said. I agree

      Incidentally, as a lifelong fan who never played this sport (beyond HS) I come here for most of my Bucs breakdown and very much because of the discussions started by you and @tog and others

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 335

      Which beat writer covering the lions?

      Stephen holder’s covers colts.

      Drawing a blank on one covering the lions.

      He’s moved around several times, hasn’t he? Such is the life of a sports reporter. Thought he had a short stint with Detroit Free Press immediately after TB. But looking back via google, it looks like he went from TB to Indy.

      ___________________

      Really, the media needs to chose it’s battles. The challenge-flag story is small potatoes.  This is sports entertainment, not impeachment hearings showing our POTUS to be a fat liar.  Ask the question, get an answer. No lie detector hook-up needed.  Save interrogation for bigger issues facing them team. No harm, no foul on the challenge anyway.

       

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      @virgilcaine

      In other words, the typical beat writer/local reporter (not journalist) is thriving on access so they wouldn’t share the motivation (at least not now) to, in essence, box Arians in and/or to make him look foolish to the masses (their audience)

      You guys are continuing a good discussion after this, but I want to address this.

      I don’t believe (I could be wrong) that I’m advocating for some idealistic, Woodward and Bernstein Watergate expose. I very much understand there is no perfect reporting.

      My issue is that it doesn’t take much to do informed football reporting. I see it on Twitter all the time. A d there are other beat reporters that manage to produce very edifying and non-propagandist reporting.

      It’s not specifically about Arians stupid challenge (and the wasted PI challenge as well). I mean, how hard is it to include a discussion and reference to it? Explain why Arians is likely wrong. It doesn’t have to be confrontational or insulting.

      Instead, it’s about a refusal by local media to really educate their audiences on football (and in the process ask good questions and challenge the team). Otherwise, you may as well read Buccaneers.com. And again, there are beat reporters who do exactly this (Field Gulls being one). The options aren’t two extremes. But instead of an uncomfortable relationship between the local media and the team (sometimes supportive, sometimes combative) we get a cozy media that makes baby food.

      A small example here is the difference between SR/MC and Trevor Sikkema. Sikkema isn’t always right (like anyone) but he attempts to both educate the audience and not accept the Buc’s stance unequivocally. I mean he’s the first member of PR I’ve heard to seriously suggest Licht must take the blame for this roster.

      And ultimately, as Nobody as echoed, I want to support local journalism. I believe in local media very strongly, whether sports or other. But the poor quality, especially in comparison to non-local NFL reporting, is stark.

    • ryan24

      Participant
      Post count: 796

      Questions can be asked but the reporter can’t be antagonistic about it. Tom Jones vs. Koetter was an example. Jones was just a horses you know what about it and now he’s working for The Poynter Institute. Maybe he looks at that as a better fit for him than being a whiny, curmudgeonly clueless sports writer.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      Questions can be asked but the reporter can’t be antagonistic about it. Tom Jones vs. Koetter was an example. Jones was just a horses you know what about it and now he’s working for The Poynter Institute. Maybe he looks at that as a better fit for him than being a whiny, curmudgeonly clueless sports writer.

      Again, you’re saying it has to be an extreme. It doesn’t.

      As has been said, the press conferences are the least important part. They exist mostly for the team’s sake (just like White House press conferences are for the WH).

      The big issue isn’t asking confrontational questions (which have a placed, if rarely). It’s in the reporting, in the articles, in local media’s own football knowledge.

      The two options aren’t Mark Cook or Tom Jones. There’s a much more nuanced, intelligent way to report which is missing here.

    • The Anti-Java

      Participant
      Post count: 7089

      Questions can be asked but the reporter can’t be antagonistic about it. Tom Jones vs. Koetter was an example. Jones was just a horses you know what about it and now he’s working for The Poynter Institute. Maybe he looks at that as a better fit for him than being a whiny, curmudgeonly clueless sports writer.

      Ha Ha, good stuff. I referenced him earlier in this thread with out mentioning any names.

    • Biggs3535

      Participant
      Post count: 6953

      Questions can be asked but the reporter can’t be antagonistic about it.

      Agreed.  I don’t think anyone is asking for the locals to call out Arians is a disrespectful way, but there is certainly room for pointed follow-ups after some of his answers.  Is Arians going to like it?  Probably not, most coaches don’t.  But that what is expected from these reporters.  Otherwise, there isn’t much reason for them to be there.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 7594

      @nobody

      He was mostly in favoring of cutting him and getting the comp pick… plus seeing what Watson has to offer.

      Watson must be awful if Scotty Miller is getting so many reps ahead of him… or Perriman for that matter.

    • The Anti-Java

      Participant
      Post count: 7089

      Which beat writer covering the lions?

      Stephen holder’s covers colts.

      Drawing a blank on one covering the lions.

      I was not referring to Holder, the next time he wrote something controversial, would be the first time he did.

    • The Anti-Java

      Participant
      Post count: 7089

      This just happened today, a media guy asking the Buffalo coach a “tough question”

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      This just happened today, a media guy asking the Buffalo coach a “tough question”

      I actually think that’s a great example of a dumb question. “are you frustrated with the offense not scoring enough?”

      What a stupid thing to ask. What is the coach going to say? Did the reporter learning anything new? Getting clarity.

      This is the worst of sports reporting (even though it seems confrontational). It’s the same vein as: “are you happy with the win?”

      And again, I don’t think the press conferences are the worst culprit for poor sports reporting.

    • Nobody

      Participant
      Post count: 6485

      Today was a very solid press conference by our press corp!

    • The Anti-Java

      Participant
      Post count: 7089

      A friend of mine asked Chucky today at a press conference, if he was going to send anyone to watch Kap. He got ticked off, and said…I AM HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BENGALS!!!!

    • gregauman

      Participant
      Post count: 1

      Just want to respond to some of this here. I asked Arians directly about the challenge. His response in explaining that he did it on purpose is because I asked him about it. He talked about precedent for a coach challenging when they couldn’t, and wrote about how it basically cost the Bucs a victory in 2014 when Marvin Lewis did it against the Bucs. He said it could have cost his team, explained why he did it.

      This is all accountability. My job isn’t to say “That was stupid.” It’s to ask why he did it, point out the potential consequences and write about the larger issues of officiating and coaches’ widespread frustration with the current replay system, especially as it relates to pass interference.

      If we were in Arians’ pocket, why would we ask about it at all? If we were in Licht’s pocket, why would we spend weeks writing about the potential of cutting Perriman to get a pick, so the public is aware of the decision that’s being made, right or wrong?

      I get that fans get frustrated, that they disagree with coaching decisions and personnel decisions. We write a ton about things that go wrong, risks that aren’t taken, why picks and signings and trades don’t work out. We ask coaches about it, we ask players about it. We’re there every day, face to face, asking them about wins and losses and why.

      If you guys have any problems with me, you’re welcome to email me at gauman@theathletic.com, hit me up on Twitter at @gregauman, or write in the comments in any of our stories on the site.

    • The Anti-Java

      Participant
      Post count: 7089

      @GREGAUMAN
      Good stuff, thanks for posting.

    • CyberDilemma

      Participant
      Post count: 412

      I always felt of all the local media Stephen Holder most closely stuck to the facts and didn’t have any personal agenda or slant. It might have been lacking in sensationalism but I always felt I was getting info the levitated more towards the truth. I  also believe Greg Auman filled that same void when Holder moved to an extent.

    • Hockey Duckie

      Participant
      Post count: 1544

      A small example here is the difference between SR/MC and Trevor Sikkema. Sikkema isn’t always right (like anyone) but he attempts to both educate the audience and not accept the Buc’s stance unequivocally. I mean he’s the first member of PR I’ve heard to seriously suggest Licht must take the blame for this roster.

      Sikkema is a different beat to SR and MC of Pewter Report.  Sikkema has another gig called “thedraftnetwork”, TDN.  So Sikkema has that to fall back upon.  Yet Sikkema was writing for several other publications before becoming a permanent writer for PR.  Sikkema’s forte was breaking plays down and explaining it.  That’s how he differentiates himself from SR and MC, which is also why he’s part of TDN.

      Now, Sikkema gets to fly off the cuff a bit and that could be by design.  SR and MC get to have their hands clean to continue to have access and tell the Bucs’ org that they’ll try to rein in Sikkema (which is probably political show).  But Sikkema doesn’t go all out either as he knows the game.

      I remember Pewtercast’s Ren often would be upset about asking the tough questions when he was a fan.  Yet, after a couple of seasons of being part of the media crew, he’s seen the flip side and has tamped down the eagerness to being too obviously obnoxious.  You can get your question answered, but you have to be far more political going about it.  So know who you are interviewing and you’ll get better responses.  Ren picked up how to ask Koetter a question to get an answer.  Ask Koetter incorrectly and you’ll be burned.

      Now, I recall that Koetter used to do a radio call-in show with Casey.  Koetter has a completely different demeanor with fans b/c fans don’t have an agenda to push.  Fans just want to be educated.

      I dunno if Arians does that.  If so, then you can ask him there.  You might be screened if your query is eligible to be taken on air.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      Appreciate @gregauman responding (and in a lot of detail). Kudos.

      My issue is less the questions in press conferences, in large part because coaches are great at giving non-answer answers or just avoiding some reporters. Greg knows this better than me. Of course, there are a lot of stupid questions “How do you feel about losing?” is a favorite of mine.

      I also understand, at least intellectually if not experientially, the game that needs to be played with the organization. It’s been said a few times by myself and others that the point is not to call Arians stupid. It’s not to be confrontational (although there is occasionally a place for that).

      The issue, as I see it and it seems others do as well, is that local reporters have gotten too cozy with the regime and struggle to think critically about the team and its place in the NFL. Keep in mind, this is an organisatipon that has not won a playoff game since 2002. They haven’t been to the playoffs since 2007. It’s ugly. And I get that every local reporter knows this, but when I read them I don’t think they get it.

      A perfect example is Licht who has been repeatedly praised for his talent acquisition. A week or two ago Mark Cook wrote he didn’t think Licht was the issue. Or you have SR praising Licht drafts (as he did with Dominik) because of the number of rookies that are projected to start. A high number of rookie starting means you have a bad team. That’s not an opinion, that’s reality.

      You have simple football mistakes replete through articles. I’m not talking about opinions on whether you like X player. I ‘m talking about facts we can evaluate as objectively as anything in football. Yes, finally beat reporters have caught on to the comp picks issues. But Licht has wasted a number of opportunities at comp picks since he arrived.

      The quality of football reporting, largely thanks to the prevalence of analytics, has gone up substantially. Greg writes for the Athletic which does a great job on this front. I subscribe (and have talked with Greg (unknown to him) on that platform.

      Yet given this improvement in football coverage, we have reporters who largely act as mouthpieces for the regime. Yes, there’s very minor criticism about not cutting Perriman. And when the coach needs to go, there will be pieces critciising him.

      But the Bucs have an organisation, a front office, a coaching staff, and players that haven’t been relevant in over a decade. And reporters haven’t engaged one whit with that. Remember how positive all the offseason coverage was? How fast the Bucs would turn around? The only people I saw evaluating the Bucs rationally were (a) some posters on this board (b) analytics Twitter and (c) some national reporters.

      Do you agree? Disagree?

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      Again, please tell me if I’m wrong here or missing the boat. But we can look at PR’s front page right now (ignoring injury reports).

      1. Comparing Evans to a Hall of Famer
      2. Secondary is getting better
      3. David is nominated for an award
      4. Bucs players react to VH3’s release
      5. Dean top graded DB
      6. PR Roundtable: who deserve to be Pro Bowlers?
      7. Cover 3: DVOA
      8. Why VH3 was released
      9. Licht Gives Reason for VH3 release

      Outside Trevor’s piece, every one of those is positive towards the organisation.

      The VH3 release is the perfect example. You have a terrible draft pick that the organisation held onto too long (and then made the elder statesman?). Big mistake by Licht and Arians.

      Yet the coverage is just repeating exactly the team’s stance. IT EVEN PRAISES THE TEAM: “With the team preaching accountability, it was time for the coaches and the front office to hold him accountable.”. In fact, the whole “Licht gives reason to Hargreaves Release” is just a copy/paste of Licht not saying anything. It doesn’t even give a reason, it just says “we decided to make a change, wish him the best”.

      I see all this and I see reporters who are in the pocket of the Buccaneers. No, the Bucs aren’t literally handing over paychecks. But with this kind of “reporting” they may as well be.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      @tog

      I think you might be confusing media roles:

      “ . In fact, the whole “Licht gives reason to Hargreaves Release” is just a copy/paste of Licht not saying anything. It doesn’t even give a reason, it just says “we decided to make a change, wish him the best”

      You may have a point with PR, but Greg A really addressed this when he said above (paraphrasing) my job isn’t to say “that was dumb,” it’s just to ask the question and report the answer. You seem to be looking for analysis and critique (judgment about the answer). That would be a columnist or opinion writer, not a reporter.

      For whatever it’s worth.

      Glad to see Greg chime in. One of the most accessible reporters around. Very willing to engage and answer questions.

    • Trask Force

      Participant
      Post count: 4107

      When I responded to this topic I was specifically talking about Pewter Report and how they may keep information under their hat or not pursue a topic with one of their inside sources.

      We can get the facts anywhere, the reporting of the events and quotes from the press conferences.  Pewter Report is not a news channel.  We read PR because we want to get more in depth information, inside scoop and “hard hitting” commentary that you wouldn’t get from the press conference or local news interview.  If PR can’t do that then they aren’t doing their job.   That’s their whole reason for existing.

      Sometimes I want more from PR.  For example the Gerald McCoy saga.  I’m not saying they need to join in with some fans who’s complaints never end.  But  I suspect there was more going on behind the scenes than was being reported.   PR failed to get behind the scenes with that story, or worse they did have more information and chose not to pass it along.     I realize you have to keep your sources happy, but you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      Yep^^^

    • DonkeyHunter

      Spectator
      Post count: 13924

      We read PR because we want to get more in depth information, inside scoop and “hard hitting” commentary that you wouldn’t get from the press conference or local news interview.

      Then, you must not have been here very long; because you get none of that.

      I won’t speak for others. But, the reason that “I” come here is for the football insight and content from the message board community.

      And, there are a handful of posters who have more high quality material than ANYTHING you see posted by the PR staff. Guys like @nobody and @tog, and a handful of others put out stuff daily, far more insightful than anything else you’ll read on this site.

      You want analytics?

      Read the posters on RB.

      You want accurate game film breakdown?

      Read the posters on RB.

      You want insightful player evaluations, pre-draft discussions and grading, mocks, etc.

      Read the posters on RB.

      You want updates and breaking stories?

      Read the posters on RB

      You want softballs, fluff pieces, limited football acumen, Jason Licht’s campaign manager, and kumbaya sing alongs?

      Read Fab 5 or whatever it’s called.

    • BucFanFromATL

      Participant
      Post count: 958

      One could argue that Tampa Bay’s overall media companies are weak when talking about economies of scale. When you’re talking about the economics of journalism… you understand why some media markets are rough and tumble like New York, L.A., Dallas, Philly, and Even Atlanta… The Media corporations and organizations have a lot more power, money, political influence, and clout. They aren’t afraid to piss people off in individual organizations because the media organizations are baked into the fabric of the city… They have the numbers (subscribers to their newspaper/print/online website/publications, viewership for their television outlets – ratings, and the listeners to their radio outlets – ratings and podcasts) In larger markets these media companies are largely independent of the organizations they report on… Whether that is the local sports team… or a local business or hell even the elected officials.

      Meaning they can call out and be critical of who they want and it is usually the individuals, organizations, businesses, politicians, and sports teams kowtowing to the media organization for favorable coverage… versus the other way around.

      You see… PewterReport is subservient to the Buccaneers by default because their whole business model is built on covering the Buccaneers… if the Buccaneers were to revoke their media credentials an access to the team, their whole business would essentially go up in smoke. While a journalistic outlet like the New York Times, or Washington Post, or Atlanta Journal Constitution etc are going to exist independently of the Giants, Redskins, or Falcons respectively.

      You see this with national media outlets like Fox Sports or ESPN… Jenna Laine is going to have the leeway to be far more critical of the Buccaneers as an organization than any of the local journalist beholden to local companies because ESPN is owned and operated by Disney and is going to exist with or without access to the Buccaneers media room. Now that also is a two way street due to the contract ESPN has with the NFL… so ESPN analyst/journalist/Opinion Writers also can’t be overly critical of Roger Goodell and the NFL as a whole or they will face repercussions like when Bill Simmons was fired for calling Goodell a Liar on his podcast and challenged ESPN to admonish him for it… etc

      It’s all about money and politics and leverage at the end of the day… Pewter Report has no leverage against the Buccaneers organization and they are reliant on their media credentials and insider access. THAT is why you won’t ever see overly critical articles of the Buccaneers organization. They are not in the pockets of the Buccaneers… but their pockets are reliant on the Buccaneers organization.

      With that being said… I come here for the message board. All that other stuff is just business.

    • Trask Force

      Participant
      Post count: 4107

      I would like to see a Michael Clayton type of guy on this site.  Former Buccaneer who does guest commentary on pre and post game WDAE coverage.  He is a bit loud and annoying, but he knows what he’s talking about and he’ll tell it like it is.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21923

      “He is a bit loud and annoying” — funniest part of his post game with TKraz is when Clayton tries to sell something that even Clayton doesn’t by and you can picture Tkraz laughing.

      Met Clayton one time. Of all places, a gas station in the middle of nowhere Florida. Couldn’t have been nicer and less like his on air persona. Big Super Bowl ring on.

    • tog

      Participant
      Post count: 3533

      It’s all about money and politics and leverage at the end of the day… Pewter Report has no leverage against the Buccaneers organization and they are reliant on their media credentials and insider access. THAT is why you won’t ever see overly critical articles of the Buccaneers organization. They are not in the pockets of the Buccaneers… but their pockets are reliant on the Buccaneers organization.

      This is what I meant by “in the pocket”. Not that they were literally being paid off.

      But I do think you’re slightly exaggerating the risk to reporters like PR. The Bucs aren’t going to just cut off their credentials. If JoeBucsFan can get credentials, anyone can.

      Yes, there is an access risk. But, and this is a problem for real reporters too, access is only valuable if you gets you useful information. You could do a great job reporting on the Bucs and never attend a press conference (nvm that you could watch it online anyways).

      If all “access” gets you is repeating the company line, then what’s the point?

    • JameisStinkston

      Participant
      Post count: 128

      The NFL has passed this old terdlet by. 8 running plays. What a complete moron.

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