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    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-threat-of-authoritarianism-in

      Another great read.

      Glen Greenwald

      The Threat of Authoritarianism in the U.S. is Very Real, and Has Nothing To Do With Trump
      The COVID-driven centralization of economic power and information control in the hands of a few corporate monopolies poses enduring threats to political freedom.

      Asserting that Donald Trump is a fascist-like dictator threatening the previously sturdy foundations of U.S. democracy has been a virtual requirement over the last four years to obtain entrance to cable news Green Rooms, sinecures as mainstream newspaper columnists, and popularity in faculty lounges. Yet it has proven to be a preposterous farce.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      In 2020 alone, Trump had two perfectly crafted opportunities to seize authoritarian power — a global health pandemic and sprawling protests and sustained riots throughout American cities — and yet did virtually nothing to exploit those opportunities. Actual would-be despots such as Hungary’s Viktor Orbán quickly seized on the virus to declare martial law, while even prior U.S. presidents, to say nothing of foreign tyrants, have used the pretext of much less civil unrest than what we saw this summer to deploy the military in the streets to pacify their own citizenry.

      But early in the pandemic, Trump was criticized, especially by Democrats, for failing to assert the draconian powers he had, such as commandeering the means of industrial production under the Defense Production Act of 1950, invoked by Truman to force industry to produce materials needed for the Korean War. In March, The Washington Post reported that “Governors, Democrats in Congress and some Senate Republicans have been urging Trump for at least a week to invoke the act, and his potential 2020 opponent, Joe Biden, came out in favor of it, too,” yet “Trump [gave] a variety of reasons for not doing so.” Rejecting demands to exploit a public health pandemic to assert extraordinary powers is not exactly what one expects from a striving dictator.

      A similar dynamic prevailed during the sustained protests and riots that erupted after the killing of George Floyd. While conservatives such as Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AK), in his controversial New York Times op-ed, urged the mass deployment of the military to quell the protesters, and while Trump threatened to deploy them if governors failed to pacify the riots, Trump failed to order anything more than a few isolated, symbolic gestures such as having troops use tear gas to clear out protesters from Lafayette Park for his now-notorious walk to a church, provoking harsh criticism from the right, including Fox News, for failing to use more aggressive force to restore order.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Virtually every prediction expressed by those who pushed this doomsday narrative of Trump as a rising dictator — usually with great profit for themselves — never materialized. While Trump radically escalated bombing campaigns he inherited from Bush and Obama, he started no new wars. When his policies were declared by courts to be unconstitutional, he either revised them to comport with judicial requirements (as in the case of his “Muslim ban”) or withdrew them (as in the case of diverting Pentagon funds to build his wall). No journalists were jailed for criticizing or reporting negatively on Trump, let alone killed, as was endlessly predicted and sometimes even implied. Bashing Trump was far more likely to yield best-selling books, social media stardom and new contracts as cable news “analysts” than interment in gulags or state reprisals. There were no Proud Boy insurrections or right-wing militias waging civil war in U.S. cities. Boastful and bizarre tweets aside, Trump’s administration was far more a continuation of the U.S. political tradition than a radical departure from it.

      The hysterical Trump-as-despot script was all melodrama, a ploy for profits and ratings, and, most of all, a potent instrument to distract from the neoliberal ideology that gave rise to Trump in the first place by causing so much wreckage. Positing Trump as a grand aberration from U.S. politics and as the prime author of America’s woes — rather than what he was: a perfectly predictable extension of U.S politics and a symptom of preexisting pathologies — enabled those who have so much blood and economic destruction on their hands not only to evade responsibility for what they did, but to rehabilitate themselves as the guardians of freedom and prosperity and, ultimately, catapult themselves back into power. As of January 20, that is exactly where they will reside.

      The Trump administration was by no means free of authoritarianism: his Justice Department prosecuted journalists’ sources; his White House often refused basic transparency; War on Terror and immigration detentions continued without due process. But that is largely because, as I wrote in a Washington Post op-ed in late 2016, the U.S. Government itself is authoritarian after decades of bipartisan expansion of executive powers justified by a posture of endless war. With rare exception, the lawless and power-abusing acts over the last four years were ones that inhere in the U.S. Government and long preceded Trump, not ones invented by him. To the extent Trump was an authoritarian, he was one in the way that all U.S. presidents have been since the War on Terror began and, more accurately, since the start of the Cold War and advent of the permanent national security state.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      Pulitzer Prize!

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      The single most revealing episode exposing this narrative fraud was when journalists and political careerists, including former Obama aides, erupted in outrage on social media upon seeing a photo of immigrant children in cages at the border — only to discover that the photo was not from a Trump concentration camp but an Obama-era detention facility (they were unaccompanied children, not ones separated from their families, but “kids in cages” are “kids in cages” from a moral perspective). And tellingly, the single most actually authoritarian Trump-era event is one that has been largely ignored by the U.S. media: namely, the decision to prosecute Julian Assange under espionage laws (but that, too, is an extension of the unprecedented war on journalism unleashed by the Obama DOJ).

      The last gasp for those clinging to the Trump-as-dictator fantasy (which was really hope masquerading as concern, since putting yourself on the front lines, bravely fighting domestic fascism, is more exciting and self-glorifying, not to mention more profitable, than the dreary, mediocre work of railing against an ordinary and largely weak one-term president) was the hysterical warning that Trump was mounting a coup in order to stay in office. Trump’s terrifying “coup” consisted of a series of failed court challenges based on claims of widespread voter fraud — virtually inevitable with new COVID-based voting rules never previously used — and lame attempts to persuade state officials to overturn certified vote totals. There was never a moment when it appeared even remotely plausible that it would succeed, let alone that he could secure the backing of the institutions he would need to do so, particularly senior military leaders.

      Whether Trump secretly harbored despotic ambitions is both unknowable and irrelevant. If he did, he never exhibited the slightest ability to carry them out or orchestrate a sustained commitment to executing a democracy-subverting plot. And the most powerful U.S. institutions — the intelligence community and military brass, Silicon Valley, Wall Street, and the corporate media — opposed and subverted him from the start. In sum, U.S. democracy, in whatever form it existed when Trump ascended to the presidency, will endure more or less unchanged once he leaves office on January 20, 2021.

      (Which was really hope masquerading as concern) Well said Glen.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Whether the U.S. was a democracy in any meaningful sense prior to Trump had been the subject of substantial scholarly debate. A much-discussed 2014 study concluded that economic power has become so concentrated in the hands of such a small number of U.S. corporate giants and mega-billionaires, and that this concentration in economic power has ushered in virtually unchallengeable political power in their hands and virtually none in anyone else’s, that the U.S. more resembles oligarchy than anything else:

      The central point that emerges from our research is that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while mass-based interest groups and average citizens have little or no independent influence. Our results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

      The U.S. Founders most certainly did not envision or desire absolute economic egalitarianism, but many, probably most, feared — long before lobbyists and candidate dependence on corporate SuperPACs — that economic inequality could become so severe, wealth concentrated in the hands of so few, that it would contaminate the political realm, where those vast wealth disparities would be replicated, rendering political rights and legal equality illusory.

      But the premises of pre-Trump debates over how grave a problem this is have been rendered utterly obsolete by the new realities of the COVID era. A combination of sustained lockdowns, massive state-mandated transfers of wealth to corporate elites in the name of legislative “COVID relief,” and a radically increased dependence on online activities has rendered corporate behemoths close to unchallengeable in terms of both economic and political power.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      @JBear

      I’ve bene waiting for you to realize this, but I doubt it will happen (maybe after rand Oaul wins his personal injury suit against Antifa?)

      Before there was Glen Grenwald, there was SEYMOUR HERSCH.

      This was SEYMOUR HERSCH:

      “Hersh first gained recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai Massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting. During the 1970s, Hersh covered the Watergate scandal for The New York Times and revealed the clandestine bombing of Cambodia. In 2004, he reported on the U.S. military’s mistreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. He has also won two National Magazine Awards and five George Polk Awards. In 2004, he received the George Orwell Award”

      This is ALSO . . . SEYMOUR HERSCH:

      “In September 2013, during an interview with The Guardian, Hersh commented that the 2011 raid that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden was “one big lie, not one word of it is true”. He said that the Obama administration lied systematically, and that American media outlets were reluctant to challenge the administration, saying “It’s pathetic, they are more than obsequious, they are afraid to pick on this guy [Obama]”.[39] Hersh later clarified that he didn’t dispute Bin Laden’s death in Pakistan, and rather meant that the lying began in the aftermath of bin Laden’s death”

      and . . ALSO. . . SEYMOUR HERSCH:

      “On December 8, 2013, the London Review of Books published “Whose Sarin?”, an article rejected by the New Yorker and Washington Post in which Hersh argued that President Obama had “omitted important intelligence, and in others he presented assumptions as facts” in his assertion during his televised speech of September 10 that the Syrian government had been responsible for the use of sarin gas in the Ghouta chemical attack of August 21, 2013 against a rebel-held district of Damascus”

      AND THAT LEADS TO THIS:

      “Critics have described Hersh as a conspiracy theorist, in particular for his rejection of official claims regarding the killing of Osama Bin Laden and his rejection that the Assad regime used chemical weapons on Syrian civilians. In 2015, Vox’s Max Fisher (now at the New York Times) wrote that in recent years “Hersh has appeared increasingly to have gone off the rails. His stories, often alleging vast and shadowy conspiracies, have made startling — and often internally inconsistent — accusations, based on little or no proof beyond a handful of anonymous “officials

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      The lockdowns from the pandemic have ushered in a collapse of small businesses across the U.S. that has only further fortified the power of corporate giants. “Billionaires increased their wealth by more than a quarter (27.5%) at the height of the crisis from April to July, just as millions of people around the world lost their jobs or were struggling to get by on government schemes,” reported The Guardian in September. A study from July told part of the story:

      The combined wealth of the world’s super-rich reached a new peak during the coronavirus pandemic, according to a study published by the consulting firm PwC and the Swiss bank UBC on Wednesday. The more than 2,000 billionaires around the world managed to amass fortunes totalling around $10.2 trillion (€8.69 trillion) by July, surpassing the previous record of $8.9 trillion reached in 2017.

      Meanwhile, though exact numbers are unknown, “roughly one in five small businesses have closed,” AP notes, adding: “restaurants, bars, beauty shops and other retailers that involve face-to-face contact have been hardest hit at a time when Americans are trying to keep distance from one another.”

      Employees are now almost completely at the mercy of a handful of corporate giants which are thriving, far more trans-national than with any allegiance to the U.S. A Brookings Institution study this week — entitled “Amazon and Walmart have raked in billions in additional profits during the pandemic, and shared almost none of it with their workers” — found that “the COVID-19 pandemic has generated record profits for America’s biggest companies, as well as immense wealth for their founders and largest shareholders—but next to nothing for workers.”

      These COVID “winners” are not the Randian victors in free market capitalism. Quite the contrary, they are the recipients of enormous amounts of largesse from the U.S. Government, which they control through armies of lobbyists and donations and which therefore constantly intervenes in the market for their benefit. This is not free market capitalism rewarding innovative titans, but rather crony capitalism that is abusing the power of the state to crush small competitors, lavish corporate giants with ever more wealth and power, and turn millions of Americans into vassals whose best case scenario is working multiple jobs at low hourly wages with no benefits, few rights, and even fewer options.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      This is Rudy Giuliani. You (and, coincidentally, Coffee island) like him:

      “Giuliani received nationwide attention in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks. He made frequent appearances on radio and television on September 11 and afterwards—for example, to indicate that tunnels would be closed as a precautionary measure, and that there was no reason to believe the dispersion of chemical or biological weaponry into the air was a factor in the attack. In his public statements, Giuliani said:

      Tomorrow New York is going to be here. And we’re going to rebuild, and we’re going to be stronger than we were before … I want the people of New York to be an example to the rest of the country, and the rest of the world, that terrorism can’t stop us.”

      This is . . . ALSO. . . Rudy Giuliani:

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Those must disgusted by this outcome should not be socialists but capitalists: this is a classic merger of state and corporate power —- also known as a hallmark of fascism in its most formal expression — that abuses state interference in markets to consolidate and centralize authority in a small handful of actors in order to disempower everyone else. Those trends were already quite visible prior to Trump and the onset of the pandemic, but have accelerated beyond anyone’s dreams in the wake of mass lockdowns, shutdowns, prolonged isolation and corporate welfare thinly disguised as legislative “relief.”

      What makes this most menacing of all is that the primary beneficiaries of these rapid changes are Silicon Valley giants, at least three of which — Facebook, Google, and Amazon — are now classic monopolies. That the wealth of their primary owners and executives — Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Sundar Pichai — has skyrocketed during the pandemic is well-covered, but far more significant is the unprecedented power these companies exert over the dissemination of information and conduct of political debates, to say nothing of the immense data they possess about our lives by virtue of online surveillance.

      Stay-at-home orders, lockdowns and social isolation have meant that we rely on Silicon Valley companies to conduct basic life functions more than ever before. We order online from Amazon rather than shop; we conduct meetings online rather than meet in offices; we use Google constantly to navigate and communicate; we rely on social media more than ever to receive information about the world. And exactly as a weakened population’s dependence on them has increased to unprecedented levels, their wealth and power has reached all new heights, as has their willingness to control and censor information and debate.

      That Facebook, Google and Twitter are exerting more and more control over our political expression is hardly contestable. What is most remarkable, and alarming, is that they are not so much grabbing these powers as having them foisted on them, by a public — composed primarily of corporate media outlets and U.S. establishment liberals — who believe that the primary problem of social media is not excessive censorship but insufficient censorship. As Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA) told Mark Zuckerberg when four Silicon Valley CEOs appeared before the Senate in October: “The issue is not that the companies before us today is that they’re taking too many posts down. The issue is that they’re leaving too many dangerous posts up.”

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      As I told the online program Rising this week when asked what the worst media failings of 2020 are, I continue to view the brute censorship by Facebook of incriminating reporting about Joe Biden in the weeks before the election as one of the most significant, and menacing, political events of the last several years. That this censorship was announced by a Facebook corporate spokesman who had spent his career previously as a Democratic Party apparatchik provided the perfect symbolic expression of this evolving danger.

      These tech companies are more powerful than ever, not only because of their newly amassed wealth at a time when the population is suffering, but also because they overwhelmingly supported the Democratic Party candidate about to assume the presidency. Predictably, they are being rewarded with numerous key positions in his transition team and the same will ultimately be true of the new administration.

      The Biden/Harris administration clearly intends to do a great deal for Silicon Valley, and Silicon Valley is well-positioned to do a great deal for them in return, starting with their immense power over the flow of information and debate.

      The dominant strain of U.S. neoliberalism — the ruling coalition that has now consolidated power again — is authoritarianism. They view those who oppose them and reject their pieties not as adversaries to be engaged but as enemies, domestic terrorists, bigots, extremists and violence-inciters to be fired, censored, and silenced. And they have on their side — beyond the bulk of the corporate media, and the intelligence community, and Wall Street — an unprecedentedly powerful consortium of tech monopolies willing and able to exert greater control over a population that has rarely, if ever, been so divided, drained, deprived and anemic.

      All of these authoritarian powers will, ironically, be invoked and justified in the name of stopping authoritarianism — not from those who wield power but from the movement that was just removed from power. Those who spent four years shrieking to great profit about the dangers of lurking “fascism” will — without realizing the irony — now use this merger of state and corporate power to consolidate their own authority, control the contours of permissible debate, and silence those who challenge them even further. Those most vocally screaming about growing authoritarianism in the U.S. over the last four years were very right in their core warning, but very wrong about the real source of that danger.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      Maybe this is why you didn’t make One Truth’s list

      YOU ARE ONE OF THEM. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU SICK PERVERTED DEMENTED ROTTEN FILTHY LOW LIFE GOD HATING SCUM BAGS are one of them. Crownless King, Donkey Hunter, Tampa Spicer, FireLicht2020, Roy, Col Klink, DC Goth, HarryBucman, and Charles. YOU ARE ONE OF THEM!

      imagine NOT being on that list . .

      imagine being ENDORSED by One Truth, being perceived as one with him

      yikes

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      This is probably his best piece yet since striking out on his own.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      This is probably his best piece yet since striking out on his own.

      Yeah, I agree . .. One Truth really brought it!

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Maybe this is why you didn’t make One Truth’s list

      YOU ARE ONE OF THEM. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU SICK PERVERTED DEMENTED ROTTEN FILTHY LOW LIFE GOD HATING SCUM BAGS are one of them. Crownless King, Donkey Hunter, Tampa Spicer, FireLicht2020, Roy, Col Klink, DC Goth, HarryBucman, and Charles. YOU ARE ONE OF THEM!

      imagine NOT being on that list . .

      imagine being ENDORSED by One Truth, being perceived as one with him

      yikes

      The last time I innocently pointed something out to OT he told me to get out of his thread and said I was just as bad as you are so I don’t think you’re talking to me.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6249

      Good to have you back.

      You’ve ignored a number of topics that have been… well… egg in the face for you.

      Forgive me if I don’t read this guy’s article on how dangerous liberals are during this contentious time.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      So, on the day tyou started a thread with Grenwald’s opinion that the left is the real authoritarian force (lol) . . the WALL STREET JOURNAL:

      Trump’s Embarrassing Electoral College Hustle
      It is doomed to fail but would still set a destructive precedent.

      https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-embarrassing-electoral-college-hustle-11609371708

      “Any challenge to Mr. Biden’s electors appears doomed, since upholding the objection takes a majority in both chambers. The Democratic House would use the opportunity to excoriate Mr. Trump a final time on his way out the door, and grown-ups in the Republican Senate are unlikely to play along. Hence the Trump crowd’s latest argument: that the power to invalidate electors rests with the joint session’s presiding officer—Vice President Mike Pence.”

      NOTHING SAYS DEMOCRACY LIKE USING A SITTING VP TO OVERRIDE CONGRESS AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE

      Like I said, lazy AF trolling

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6249

      I’m just embarrassed for jbear…

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1063

      I’m just embarrassed for jbear…

      Why? Since, in your own words, you haven’t read what he posted.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6249

      Why?

      The issues he avoids for the hypotheticals that don’t exist.

      Similar to you, but he just avoids the threads. You move the goal posts in the threads.

      140 GOP gonna trying and stop the election.

      It is a cult.

      MAGA, Proud Boys, QANON…

      All bigger than you claim them to be, all more dangerous than you claim them to be.

      Same of course for jbear.

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1063

      On a serious note, I read the article a few days back and to be frank, much to your surprise I am sure, I agree with it. The basics being if Trump really was the budding dictator that some point him out to be, he had his opportunities and he did nothing about it. Its not like he arrested and prosecuted journalists or anything like someone else I would care to mention!

      Particularly over the last 12 months there have been many stories and comments on the lines of “what if Trump ….”

      You can insert any despotic, illegal act that fits your current narrative into there. The funny thing is, when you look back at said coup/despot/illegal act there is no suggestion that he is/was actually inclined to do any of the aforementioned bad deeds. Democrats and the media, yes I am raising the spectre of the media again because they either fostered or initiated much of this, simply seemed to pluck shit out of their ass as if it was a direct quote from either the Whitehouse or Trump himself.

      Trump isn’t exactly covering himself with glory right now with his temper tantrum I admit, but there is nothing to support the fact he is prepared to do anything that anyone has suggested he will. Worse case scenario? He doesn’t attend the inauguration. But I think Melania might have something to say about that.

    • Roy

      Participant
      Post count: 3863

      Hey, there are liberals and conservatives. There are legitimate arguments to be made I’m sure. I’ll be glad to respond to those arguments and debate you. Lets talk about the Postal Service. What happened to that urgent defunding of the USPS? Anyhoo, lets talk about health care and Iran and government spending and Democrats and Republicans…..20 days from now!

      But for the next 20 days there is something more important going. The attempted overthrow of the government. A coup. Will they try? They are already trying. Its underway. Any attempt to talk about philosophies right now, such as this thread, is just an attempt to divert attention away from what’s going on at the White House.

      Listen, this isn’t about conservative values. Its about someone trying to overthrow our Democracy. People like you, JBear and Spartan, and the many others like you need to stop trying to divert attention. Liberals and conservatives need to stand up against this common enemy to our nation, not just try to ignore it and change the subject. It should outrage you just as much as it outrages any liberal. But all Greenwald is doing is trying to shift the attention away from where it needs to be.

      JBear, hit the pause button on the philosophy for 20 days and focus on what’s happening right now. That’s all I’m asking.

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1063

      Similar to you, but he just avoids the threads. You move the goal posts in the threads.

      There is some shit that just isn’t worth engaging about. The Eiffel Tower appears to spend his entire day cutting and pasting his twitter feed. If I wanted to follow his twitter feed I would.

      Plus I have things like work, life and family to engage in as well so there are some things that are more important.

      I have a tendency to hit and run. I know that, and to be blunt, most of the time there are more important things to do then to respond to some of the stuff on this board.

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1063

      Hey, there are liberals and conservatives. There are legitimate arguments to be made I’m sure. I’ll be glad to respond to those arguments and debate you. Lets talk about the Postal Service. What happened to that urgent defunding of the USPS? Anyhoo, lets talk about health care and Iran and government spending and Democrats and Republicans…..20 days from now!

      But for the next 20 days there is something more important going. The attempted overthrow of the government. A coup. Will they try? They are already trying. Its underway. Any attempt to talk about philosophies right now, such as this thread, is just an attempt to divert attention away from what’s going on at the White House.

      Listen, this isn’t about conservative values. Its about someone trying to overthrow our Democracy. People like you, JBear and Spartan, and the many others like you need to stop trying to divert attention. Liberals and conservatives need to stand up against this common enemy to our nation, not just try to ignore it and change the subject. It should outrage you just as much as it outrages any liberal. But all Greenwald is doing is trying to shift the attention away from where it needs to be.

      JBear, hit the pause button on the philosophy for 20 days and focus on what’s happening right now. That’s all I’m asking.

      I agree that in 20 days things will be different. The Eiffel Tower won’t have anything to talk about. :)

      What’s more I look forward to having discussions where there can be a legitimate difference of opinion without the acrimony. Not that I am that hopeful but I do believe without Trump being around some won’t know what to do or say, so there is potential.

      Without solid evidence of voter fraud, which he has not produced yet, there is no way he could implement a “coup” even if he wanted to. No matter what you think of him as a man, I don’t think he is that stupid. If no other reason than it would ruin his businesses. What’s more, he might get a few thousand supporters, but without that evidence he would lose the support of most of the USA that voted for him. Plus the military would not support him. So if you think that considering the whole coup thing is a bag of bollocks is deflection then I plead guilty.

    • Roy

      Participant
      Post count: 3863

      Spartan, I agree with you that the military will not support an attempt to keep Trump in power, and on January 20th Joe Biden will become President. But not before there is a lot of chaos. I hope I’m wrong, but the destruction in Nashville is just the beginning. Again, I hope I’m wrong.

      I just don’t see the Republicans standing up for those brave ones who are getting attacked. Such as the Governor of Georgia, Chief Justice Roberts, Chris Krebs. The attitude seems to be “Well it sure sucks to be them. Lets just continue to change the subject and hope this all goes away soon…”

    • Col. Klink

      Participant
      Post count: 185

      What’s more, he might get a few thousand supporters, but without that evidence he would lose the support of most of the USA that voted for him.

      Spartan, you’re not this fucking stupid …… or naive. There’s been no evidence brought forth to this point yet over 70% of the Republicans think the Dems stole the election. I’m not exactly sure how we’ve gotten here but millions of Americans are putting that con artist before their country. You can try and downplay this all you want but he’s done/doing some serious harm to this nation no matter how this plays out. My only hope is I’m being an overly histrionic drama queen.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Good to have you back.

      You’ve ignored a number of topics that have been… well… egg in the face for you.

      Forgive me if I don’t read this guy’s article on how dangerous liberals are during this contentious time.

      Ah Fire. Forgive me for having a life. No I’m not reading back the last few weeks posts but I’m here now if you’d like to talk. ;)

      Why am I not surprised that you’re posting in another thread that you can’t be bothered to read?

      Anyway happy new year.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      So, on the day tyou started a thread with Grenwald’s opinion that the left is the real authoritarian force (lol) . . the WALL STREET JOURNAL:

      Trump’s Embarrassing Electoral College Hustle
      It is doomed to fail but would still set a destructive precedent.

      https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-embarrassing-electoral-college-hustle-11609371708

      “Any challenge to Mr. Biden’s electors appears doomed, since upholding the objection takes a majority in both chambers. The Democratic House would use the opportunity to excoriate Mr. Trump a final time on his way out the door, and grown-ups in the Republican Senate are unlikely to play along. Hence the Trump crowd’s latest argument: that the power to invalidate electors rests with the joint session’s presiding officer—Vice President Mike Pence.”

      NOTHING SAYS DEMOCRACY LIKE USING A SITTING VP TO OVERRIDE CONGRESS AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE

      Like I said, lazy AF trolling

      It seems that you also didn’t bother to read the article. The whole thing is about how you keep up the orange boogie man hoax so that you can pretend you’re defending democracy while you tear down liberty in favor of what I like to call, new age authoritarianism.

      It’s all about controlling the pleebs as you ought to know Republican who never saw a news feed without a left wing tilt.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      I’m just embarrassed for jbear…

      Why? Since, in your own words, you haven’t read what he posted.

      I think that’s fair.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Why?

      The issues he avoids for the hypotheticals that don’t exist.

      Similar to you, but he just avoids the threads. You move the goal posts in the threads.

      140 GOP gonna trying and stop the election.

      It is a cult.

      MAGA, Proud Boys, QANON…

      All bigger than you claim them to be, all more dangerous than you claim them to be.

      Same of course for jbear.

      This sounds familiar BTW. Antifa doesn’t exist etc. Look I’m trying to be fair. I know I think antifa exists and you don’t too. Maybe we can both bend a little bit?

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      Hey, there are liberals and conservatives. There are legitimate arguments to be made I’m sure. I’ll be glad to respond to those arguments and debate you. Lets talk about the Postal Service. What happened to that urgent defunding of the USPS? Anyhoo, lets talk about health care and Iran and government spending and Democrats and Republicans…..20 days from now!

      But for the next 20 days there is something more important going. The attempted overthrow of the government. A coup. Will they try? They are already trying. Its underway. Any attempt to talk about philosophies right now, such as this thread, is just an attempt to divert attention away from what’s going on at the White House.

      Listen, this isn’t about conservative values. Its about someone trying to overthrow our Democracy. People like you, JBear and Spartan, and the many others like you need to stop trying to divert attention. Liberals and conservatives need to stand up against this common enemy to our nation, not just try to ignore it and change the subject. It should outrage you just as much as it outrages any liberal. But all Greenwald is doing is trying to shift the attention away from where it needs to be.

      JBear, hit the pause button on the philosophy for 20 days and focus on what’s happening right now. That’s all I’m asking.

      I agree that in 20 days things will be different. The Eiffel Tower won’t have anything to talk about. :)

      What’s more I look forward to having discussions where there can be a legitimate difference of opinion without the acrimony. Not that I am that hopeful but I do believe without Trump being around some won’t know what to do or say, so there is potential.

      Without solid evidence of voter fraud, which he has not produced yet, there is no way he could implement a “coup” even if he wanted to. No matter what you think of him as a man, I don’t think he is that stupid. If no other reason than it would ruin his businesses. What’s more, he might get a few thousand supporters, but without that evidence he would lose the support of most of the USA that voted for him. Plus the military would not support him. So if you think that considering the whole coup thing is a bag of bollocks is deflection then I plead guilty.

      Thank god you’re here.

      Lol

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      whole thing is about how you keep up the orange boogie man hoax so that you can pretend you’re defending democracy while you tear down liberty in favor of what I like to call, new age authoritarianism.

      Laugh my ducking ass off

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Spartan, I agree with you that the military will not support an attempt to keep Trump in power, and on January 20th Joe Biden will become President. But not before there is a lot of chaos. I hope I’m wrong, but the destruction in Nashville is just the beginning. Again, I hope I’m wrong.

      I just don’t see the Republicans standing up for those brave ones who are getting attacked. Such as the Governor of Georgia, Chief Justice Roberts, Chris Krebs. The attitude seems to be “Well it sure sucks to be them. Lets just continue to change the subject and hope this all goes away soon…”

      Roy….and Kline after this…Jesus Klink.

      Trump is over. If you’d read the article. This is you guys manufacturing outrage. I don’t even blame you because you are spoon fed this nonsense.

      If you’d read the article you’d see that you’re about to use this excuse for the next four years to legitimize an even bigger power grab until every American understands that the collective good is more important than the individual.

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      <p>Spartan, I agree with you that the military will not support an attempt to keep Trump in power, and on January 20th Joe Biden will become President. But not before there is a lot of chaos. I hope I’m wrong, but the destruction in Nashville is just the beginning. Again, I hope I’m wrong. </p>
      <p>I just don’t see the Republicans standing up for those brave ones who are getting attacked. Such as the Governor of Georgia, Chief Justice Roberts, Chris Krebs. The attitude seems to be “Well it sure sucks to be them. Lets just continue to change the subject and hope this all goes away soon…”</p>

      <p>Roy….and Kline after this…Jesus Klink. </p>
      <p>Trump is over. If you’d read the article. This is you guys manufacturing outrage. I don’t even blame you because you are spoon fed this nonsense. </p>
      <p>If you’d read the article you’d see that you’re about to use this excuse for the next four years to legitimize an even bigger power grab until every American understands that the collective good is more important than the individual.

      whole thing is about how you keep up the orange boogie man hoax so that you can pretend you’re defending democracy while you tear down liberty in favor of what I like to call, new age authoritarianism.

      Laugh my ducking ass off

      You really do suck at this.

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6249

      Jbear, I’m not gonna mince words…

      Don’t have any respect for you anymore.

      It’s pathetic what you ignore…

    • jbear

      Participant
      Post count: 3965

      Jbear, I’m not gonna mince words…

      Don’t have any respect for you anymore.

      It’s pathetic what you ignore…

      Jesus christ I’ve been busy. There’s only so much time in a day. I’m being honest Here.

      I can’t respond to you every moment but what I’m trying to get across to you is that I am a sincere person unlike that Alice personage. Understand who’s trying to manipulate you and who’s trying to lead you to water.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      I am a sincere “LIBERTARIAN” (wink, nnod) WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP unlike that Alice personage.

      :-)

    • Roy

      Participant
      Post count: 3863

      jBear, what do you mean by power grab? If there is a Democratic administration in the White House then they are going to do things that Democrats want to see done, and Republicans won’t like a lot of it. But that isn’t an authoritarian power grab. What exactly do you think the Democrats are going to try to do?

    • Col. Klink

      Participant
      Post count: 185

      Roy….and Kline after this…Jesus Klink.

      Trump is over. If you’d read the article. This is you guys manufacturing outrage. I don’t even blame you because you are spoon fed this nonsense.

      You can just call me Col. ……… and I hope you’re right but this has nothing to do with being spoon fed anything or that article. The polls and Congressmen, et al pandering to his cult members is being made up. It will be awesome if his lunacy goes away after January 20 and OT reverts to a fetal position in his basement ……… just not convinced that’s going to happen.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      The argument “the liberals are the real authoritarian‘s“ is a not so distant cousin from the argument “the liberals are the actual racist“

      Trump and 140 GOP are about to try to overturn a democratic election. A TX GOP rep and a Bunch of Arizona GOP representatives are suing to force the vice president to overturn the election.

      Yeah, the liberals are the authoritarians

      Lol

      And the racists

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6249

      Jbear, I’m not gonna mince words…

      Don’t have any respect for you anymore.

      It’s pathetic what you ignore…

      Jesus christ I’ve been busy. There’s only so much time in a day. I’m being honest Here.

      I can’t respond to you every moment but what I’m trying to get across to you is that I am a sincere person unlike that Alice personage. Understand who’s trying to manipulate you and who’s trying to lead you to water.

      Riiiiight

    • spartan

      Participant
      Post count: 1063

      Riiiiight

      Maybe we should rephrase it as we have more important things to do in our opinion than to respond to anything and everything that is posted on this board. For example I am watching Clemson/Ohio while I do this and my wife comes and tells me she wants to watch a movie. Love you guys lots, but, buh bye! Keeping my wife happy is more important than responding, Sorry.

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      Riiiiight

      Maybe we should rephrase it as we have more important things to do in our opinion than to respond to anything and everything that is posted on this board. For example I am watching Clemson/Ohio while I do this and my wife comes and tells me she wants to watch a movie. Love you guys lots, but, buh bye! Keeping my wife happy is more important than responding, Sorry.

      This is such bullshit

      Fires point is that JBear intentionally and SELECTIVELY avoids threads. You clowns say “we’re too busy” or “we’ve got better things to do” while finding home in your schedule to repost an entire Grenwald article or participate in a 23 page thread about Hunter Biden or post about the virtues of Flynn or dismissing the actions of a kookoo bird (because you share some beliefs?) who blew up a building or tried to kidnap a governor

      Cmon man. I mean, that “too busy/too important” defense is embarrassing when you look at all the nonsense you post

    • Anonymous

      Inactive
      Post count: 21933

      more important than responding

      Unless the response is that a kid with an AR acted in self defense or that nutty Michigan vigilantes are not really a threat

      Or, if it has to do with Hilary Clinton (that’s an important and timely topic!) or Flynn’s “real” motivation for pleading or “Russia is a hoax” lol

      Good grief man

    • FireLicht2020

      Participant
      Post count: 6249

      It’s all bullshit.

      It isn’t about time… they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

      One of the best things someone can do for the sake of progress, is admit when they’re wrong.

      Instead of condemning “stop the steal”, they avoid it or brush it off… “boys will be boys”.

      Imagine 2016, and Dems campaign to “stop the steal” for months.

      And there was evidence of actually election interference from Russia. Even still, it would be BAD FOR THE COUNTRY to deny the electoral process.

      So @spartan – k bye. But just know you’re being cowardly and anti-American.

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