Wait, so White Tiger - are you saying he's going to be a bad OC because he lied about his players' ability? Because I'm struggling to understand what you are getting at.
WT is struggling to understand what he is getting at. ;) (just kidding WT, you're entitled)if you read from the start of the discussion, you'll note various claims dropping. No one in the NFL wanted to hire him even though the article is about McKay trying to hire him as OC. I also posted an article about the Bears trying to hire him as HC. TAt one point WT suggest that Rodgers endorsement of Tedford may have been for money . . . the same Rodgers who may be one of the richest players in football. . . . .. "Five players" but avoiding Rodgers and including Carr . . Now Tedford is a liar?I think the possibility that Tedford might be a good OC cuts into some posters' primary complaint about Lovie, that he is inept at offense, and so Tedford also has to be inept . . or dishonest ;)
Hmm...the Kool Aid is strong with this one...[url url=http://
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]I'd rather talk about this.
Let's see if I can salvage this thing, because I generally enjoy White Tiger's contributions. I don't think any of us defending Tedford here aren't at least somewhat wary of the jump from college to pro in general. It's obviously an unknown. At the core, White Tiger, your argument is really that he was successful with those guys because he ran a bunch of gimmicks and those gimmicks won't work in the pros. My position is different. I don't think he used gimmicks, unless teaching fundamentals in a pro-style college system is a gimmick. I think what happened is this - he took a bunch of "C" level players who probably never get drafted, and turned them into "A" players. I'm pretty sure that of all the guys he coached, only Boller and Joey Harrington were highly rated prospect (10th best QB in the country). Trent Dilfer was second team all-county QB who wasn't recruited by anybody to play QB, besides Fresno State. Cal wanted him to be a TE. He's was more athlete than QB - 4 sports, plus all county P and S. David Carr - with whom he only worked a single year - was second team all-county as well. Smith was coming from Juco. Rogers wasn't recruited by anybody. And let's add another layer of context - Boller was highly rated coming out of HS, but he was pretty much terrible prior to working with Tedford. Tedford coached him for a single year. Boller credits him with fixing his mechanics which improved his accuracy to above 50% for the only time in his career. That Baltimore wasted a first round on a highly inaccurate strong-armed athlete is 100% on them, not Tedford. Akili Smith was another guy who went from undraftable to draftable because of one year of coaching with Tedford. I'd also point out that Smith's failure had mostly to do with off-the-field issues when he got into the pros. He partied too much (he says he'd fly back and forth from Cincy to home to party and burn cash) and was notorious for not learning the playbook. That's on Tedford? I also think you are drawing the wrong lessons from Petrino and Spurrier.Spurrier failed for a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest one was he totally underestimated the work ethic required to succeed at the NFL level. At his first press conference, he infamously laughed about how little sleep Jim Haslett (then the Saints' coach) got - "I saw a story saying Jim Haslett comes in at 4:30 every morning - that's not doing him much good." He thought he was going to play golf all the time in the offseason. He didn't really run the practices - that was Marvin Lewis - choosing to spend his time mostly with the QBs. When Lewis left the next year, the practices deteriorated. He brought in Wuerfel and Matthews to play QB, because they did things the way he wanted to, without realizing that those guys weren't NFL caliber starters. The next year, he was forced to start Patrick Ramsey, a QB he didn't draft and didn't want. Tim Hasselbeck, who also played that year, pointed out that Spurrier got guys open all day, but failed to adjust to what defenses did. His system, like Mike Martz' required the QB to stay in the pocket until the last second and his QBs took a beat-down. Plus, the talent-level of the team was atrocious and he had zero institutional control (especially after Lewis left). It was like Campo-era Cowboys. Petrino had similar issues - mostly about handling being an NFL HC. He had been a coordinator and QB coach in the NFL previously, so I don't know that there was much in the way of gimmickery involved. He also had Mike Vick, the dog-fighting years, and replaced him - like Spurrier, with Redmond. I'd also point out that both guys had rosters filled with lousy players, especially the Skins.
Booker, thanks for reeling it back in. Rather than debate you at this point, I will consider what you have posted. Tedford has never been a name I would associate with an NFL team - could be a generational thing - lets just say I'm still very skeptical that Tedford's methods and strategies will be able to translate.
I think what happened is this - he took a bunch of "C" level players who probably never get drafted, and turned them into "A" players. I'm pretty sure that of all the guys he coached, only Boller and Joey Harrington were highly rated prospect (10th best QB in the country). Trent Dilfer was second team all-county QB who wasn't recruited by anybody to play QB, besides Fresno State. Cal wanted him to be a TE. He's was more athlete than QB - 4 sports, plus all county P and S. David Carr - with whom he only worked a single year - was second team all-county as well. Smith was coming from Juco. Rogers wasn't recruited by anybody. And let's add another layer of context - Boller was highly rated coming out of HS, but he was pretty much terrible prior to working with Tedford. Tedford coached him for a single year. Boller credits him with fixing his mechanics which improved his accuracy to above 50% for the only time in his career. That Baltimore wasted a first round on a highly inaccurate strong-armed athlete is 100% on them, not Tedford. Akili Smith was another guy who went from undraftable to draftable because of one year of coaching with Tedford. I'd also point out that Smith's failure had mostly to do with off-the-field issues when he got into the pros. He partied too much (he says he'd fly back and forth from Cincy to home to party and burn cash) and was notorious for not learning the playbook. That's on Tedford?
+1"Tampa should be very, very excited to have him. I think he'll do really well in the pros," said former Cal quarterback Kyle Boller, the 19th overall pick in 2003. "He's very detailed. He has a certain way he wants things done, and he'll make sure he does everything he can to get you to do it the right way. He's an offensive guru."Boller remembers Tedford not liking how his nonthrowing arm came flailing out at the end of a throw. To reteach him, the coach had the team's trainers tape his nonthrowing wrist to his shoulder, forcing him to keep his arm in tight. "# # #It has been 15 years since Akili Smith played for Jeff Tedford, but the former Oregon quarterback still remembers the intricate details his offensive coordinator insisted he follow on the way to a 32-touchdown season as a senior.In all meetings, in any class, Smith had to sit in the first two rows, ensuring he would be attentive and actively participating. Smith can still rattle off the mechanical checklist for a throw — "ball on a shelf, rear elbow coming up, front knee bent" — Tedford would reiterate at 6:30 a.m. preseason workouts. "The biggest thing for me was mechanics. He's a mechanical genius," said Smith, whose Ducks scored 39 points a game in 1998, helping him become the No. 3 overall pick in the 1999 NFL draft."He makes the game so easy for you. Once I got a grasp of what he was trying to get done, then it all came together."
At this point, I will give Lovie a chance - but I'm glad we reached out to Gruden and Dungy.
I think we share the generation, WT. I watched a lot of Trent Dilfer, and every year after viewed Tedford's QB pupils enter the draft with trepidation. But the more I truly learn about him, the less I feel that what he teaches his Qbs are gimmicks. He's largely teaching them solid fundamentals. I think they were attractive to teams because they mostly played in pro-ish style offenses and had a grasp of the type of reads pro QBs had to make. But QBs bust for a variety of reasons. You say Carr busted because of Tedford, others say it's because he took a beating in Houston. If I were a GM, Boller never would have been drafted as he was a poor man's Locker. And Akili Smith was classic Bengals - ignore character at all costs. I wouldn't say I'm drinking the Kool-Aid, but I certainly am more intrigued about this option than I would have been under any OC Schiano had running the offense (or contemplated having).
On a more general point about Lovie and the offense....I know that it's tempting, because of their links and the circumstances of their first HC jobs to compare Dungy's eternal quest for an offense with Lovie's but I think there is a pretty big difference. I think Dungy was quite comfortable playing an old-school game with the Bucs. Run the ball, take no risks, capitalize on turn-overs, burn the clock. He'd have been happy for the team to score 17 points per game. Remember - if it had been up to him, we probably would have had Mike Shula as the OC from 1996-2001. Lovie seems quite different - he seems to get that old school doesn't work. He tried Shea (Vermeil's guy in KC), Ron Turner, Martz, and Mike Tice. All very different guys - but I think the common thread for all is just terrible personnel choices. Besides Forte - and later Cutler - who did they have? Olson? How much of that is Lovie, how much was Angelo? (I recall an article where Angelo, in his final year, basically claimed to be satisfied with his abysmal offensive line personnel).
Like I've said - no longer drinking the kool aid - also not interested in talking others out of drinking their preferred brand of "true believer juice".You can deny these issues if you want. You can pretend hiring Lovie was what you all thought would happen - I get it - you've made the leap the owners knew you would. You don't have a choice in the matter, you want to enjoy football, you accept the forced conclusion. Been there a lot of times, just not there now...maybe I will be prior to the draft, maybe I will prior to TC, maybe before the season...or maybe not.Shouldn't be any skin off your nose either way - but lets not get nasty just to shut up the folks you disagree with - becuse in reality, t this point, you're only holding on to what others have said (recently).I choose to remember what coaches and scouts have been saying about Tedford over the past 10 years, back when nobody was trying to hire him.Like that guy from Rutgers they hired and foisted on you last time.Drink up, is all I'm saying, since everyone's cup is empty anyway...
yeah, nobody ever would have thought Lovie was the frontrunnerSMH
Like I've said - no longer drinking the kool aid - also not interested in talking others out of drinking their preferred brand of "true believer juice".You can deny these issues if you want. You can pretend hiring Lovie was what you all thought would happen - I get it - you've made the leap the owners knew you would. You don't have a choice in the matter, you want to enjoy football, you accept the forced conclusion. Been there a lot of times, just not there now...maybe I will be prior to the draft, maybe I will prior to TC, maybe before the season...or maybe not.Shouldn't be any skin off your nose either way - but lets not get nasty just to shut up the folks you disagree with - becuse in reality, t this point, you're only holding on to what others have said (recently).I choose to remember what coaches and scouts have been saying about Tedford over the past 10 years, back when nobody was trying to hire him.Like that guy from Rutgers they hired and foisted on you last time.Drink up, is all I'm saying, since everyone's cup is empty anyway...
yeah, nobody ever would have thought Lovie was the frontrunnerSMH
Yep. There was talk of Lovie being the hire back in Week 8 (when it looked like Schiano was going to be fired mid-season). Assuming Schiano was going to be fired, Lovie was the considered the highest probability hire by just about everyone. Unless WT knows of other secret candidates that were preferred? Wait, why are we talking about this?
Like I've said - no longer drinking the kool aid - also not interested in talking others out of drinking their preferred brand of "true believer juice".You can deny these issues if you want. You can pretend hiring Lovie was what you all thought would happen - I get it - you've made the leap the owners knew you would. You don't have a choice in the matter, you want to enjoy football, you accept the forced conclusion. Been there a lot of times, just not there now...maybe I will be prior to the draft, maybe I will prior to TC, maybe before the season...or maybe not.Shouldn't be any skin off your nose either way - but lets not get nasty just to shut up the folks you disagree with - becuse in reality, t this point, you're only holding on to what others have said (recently).I choose to remember what coaches and scouts have been saying about Tedford over the past 10 years, back when nobody was trying to hire him.Like that guy from Rutgers they hired and foisted on you last time.Drink up, is all I'm saying, since everyone's cup is empty anyway...
yeah, nobody ever would have thought Lovie was the frontrunnerSMH
Yep. There was talk of Lovie being the hire back in Week 8 (when it looked like Schiano was going to be fired mid-season). Assuming Schiano was going to be fired, Lovie was the considered the highest probability hire by just about everyone. Unless WT knows of other secret candidates that were preferred?
Do you think that was after the owners asked Jon Gruden and Tony Dungy to come back?Stop trying - you're in way over your head.
Wait, why are we talking about this?
smh (see, when I do it with lower case, it means I'm belittling you).
WT, it's a little funny to watch you cry foul after people challenge your comments when one of your very first posts in this thread insults anyone and everyone who disagrees with you as "kool aid drinkers" (ie dimwits duped by the owners).
It's no use Vin. Either WT's account has been hacked or he's decided to be a troll.
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WT, it's a little funny to watch you cry foul after people challenge your comments when one of your very first posts in this thread insults anyone and everyone who disagrees with you as "kool aid drinkers" (ie dimwits duped by the owners).
No, that was my 29th post.My first post asserted that anti-grudenista's were closer to your definition of kool aid drinkers.Even though I castigated (careful, that's probably not the word you think I mean) you (all) for it - I've also excused you - since we've been trained to do that around here - almost from the beginning. Additionally, I mentioned that I would be faced with making the decision to 'self-delude' at some point this off-season myself. You see, I didn't/don't like it, but they're my team and since I don't hire coaches, or even get to vote on them, at some point I'm going to have to accept it.I'm not there yet.and to bring it in for a landing, after some of your posts in this thread - I find it funny watching you cry foul, period. ;)
You can deny these issues if you want. You can pretend hiring Lovie was what you all thought would happen - I get it - you've made the leap the owners knew you would. You don't have a choice in the matter, you want to enjoy football, you accept the forced conclusion.
p. 2
WT, it's a little funny to watch you cry foul after people challenge your comments when one of your very first posts in this thread insults anyone and everyone who disagrees with you as "kool aid drinkers" (ie dimwits duped by the owners).
No, that was my 29th post.My first post asserted that anti-grudenista's were closer to your definition of kool aid drinkers.Even though I castigated (careful, that's probably not the word you think I mean) you (all) for it - I've also excused you - since we've been trained to do that around here - almost from the beginning. Additionally, I mentioned that I would be faced with making the decision to 'self-delude' at some point this off-season myself. You see, I didn't/don't like it, but they're my team and since I don't hire coaches, or even get to vote on them, at some point I'm going to have to accept it.I'm not there yet.and to bring it in for a landing, after some of your posts in this thread - I find it funny watching you cry foul, period. ;)
first, I was not crying foul . . I was laughing at you crying foulsecond, saying you "excuse" others"kool aid drinking" is still calling others kool aid drinkers . . . when they are not
You can deny these issues if you want. You can pretend hiring Lovie was what you all thought would happen - I get it - you've made the leap the owners knew you would. You don't have a choice in the matter, you want to enjoy football, you accept the forced conclusion.
p. 2
Maybe I missed the part where I was insulting - or maybe you have really thin skin?and that was me laughing at you, laughing at me, crying foul...Like I said, you think I believe that Lovie Smith was the first name on everyone's mind after the firing of Schiano, you're still not being truthful with yourself.But don't feel so bad, I hold the folks that wanted Gruden fired with as much contempt as I do for those who leap to their feet to applaud ANY/every move the owners make.I may come around to all of this - and this makes me frustrated because Lovie is family - but hearing the name 'Lovie Smith' would replace the recently fired coach was like taking your car in to have the engine replaced, and discovering they only changed the brakes.
