Misled GM's lose their jobs when they use a 1st round pick on a QB that goes BUST.When that happens FIVE CONSECUTIVE TIMES - you lose credibility with the folks who get paid to build NFL teams. Whether it was the fault of the GM for listening to you, or whether it was something you told them that made them feel better about taking one of your kids..Do you think it's possible, I mean after the first 3 1st round QB failures in the NFL, that a GM perhaps asked 'The Ted' "...uh, Jeff, my careers on the line here buddy..is this kid for real..."?Like The Rock says, "it doesn't matter what you think"...the proof is, folks stopped buying what he was selling.You can believe what you want about that, I submit something caused him to lose credibility. Rich McKay tried to hire him twice - but I notice you didn't offer that after the folks around here ranked McKay's decision making almost as highly as Mike Ditka's decsion to trade all of his draft picks for one guy......not a lot of offers for this "genius" in the last 10 years, were there? Can you imagine what it would be like to HIRE the guy who told 5 former GM's that his kid was "the real deal"?In reality - this post isn't for you - it's to correct the obfuscation others may be reading.
Misled GM's lose their jobs when they use a 1st round pick on a QB that goes BUST.Whether it was the fault of the GM for listening to you, or whether it was something you told them that made them feel better about taking one of your kids..Do you think it's possible, I mean after the first 3 1st round QB failures in the NFL, that a GM perhaps asked 'The Ted' "...uh, Jeff, my careers on the line here buddy..is this kid for real..."?
I'm also close to Missouri on offense, US.
As we discussed, I'm a bit further along with my skepticism - but do any of your reservations have to do with the same historical issues I have regarding Tedford running our offense - or are they simply general reservations you would have for any new OC?
I'm cautiously optimistic because I think Lovie understands that it was his downfall in Chicago.[/quotethis is where the self-delusion comes in (for me), at some point I will get over it because I like & respect Lovie Smith - and his football knowledge.instincts.
I also find Tedford more intriguing than a lot of retreads or first-time play-caller options. I'd much rather gamble on Tedford than have Kubiak, for example. But there's no doubt it's a risk.
Btw, U.S., he has gotten interest from the pros before. But he didn't take the jobs when he was the "hot" guy, and now that Cal hasn't been as good he's no longer flavor of the month.
See, that's why I introduced 'The Tedford 5' into this conversation - while it is true that the 5 former GM's hold some responsibility for selecting those horrible QB's in the 1st round - Tedford had to have endorsed them to these GM's. I submit that Tedford dropped off the NFL radar BECAUSE he was being made to pay....and other than a former GM who lost his own credibility due to his legacy of creating 'Cap Hell' for his employer, with players who don't pan out (Bert Emmanual)...and Lovie Smith when he was the HC in Chicago - there aren't any other reports of NFL teams trying to hire him.I'm still reserving judgment on him - because I respect your opinion - but I am still very skeptical about Tefford.
White T: I wouldn't call them general OC reservations - they are general, "this guy hasn't coached in the NFL" reservations. With regard to self-delusion - I think it's in this thread (earlier) where I point out the differences between Dungy/Lovie. I haven't read his book, but supposedly Dungy regrets not quitting when they forced him to fire Shula. I don't think he'd do anything differently. That's the difference - I think Lovie struggled to find his guy, but he knew he had problems. And that's part of the process right? Understanding you have a problem? I totally disagree with you on the "why" Tedford dropped out of the discussion, and while I disparage McKay in general, I don't think the Dungy, Marv Lewis (attempt before Gruden) picks suggest is completely nuts. Here's the thing about your theory - first of all, coaches, not GMs, pick their staffs. Again, I think it's more about generic concerns about college guys, especially without NFL experience. It just wasn't done all that often. I do think your Rodgers "payment" thing is ludicrous, though (no offense), even the modified "throwing him a bone when he's down" form. Why? Because his ex-QBs routinely rave about him regardless of the year. This isn't the first time Rodgers talked about him.
White T: I wouldn't call them general OC reservations - they are general, "this guy hasn't coached in the NFL" reservations. With regard to self-delusion - I think it's in this thread (earlier) where I point out the differences between Dungy/Lovie. I haven't read his book, but supposedly Dungy regrets not quitting when they forced him to fire Shula. I don't think he'd do anything differently. That's the difference - I think Lovie struggled to find his guy, but he knew he had problems. And that's part of the process right? Understanding you have a problem?
Yes, and for the record - I said that at some point I would also have to decide if I too would buy into some self-delusion - it doesn't mean I will, but if I want to participate, I understand that I do so on the owners terms. I would have to accept who the owners picked for their coach. I don't have to like it - I just have to accept the owners premise that Lovie was the best choice, which then means I accept Lovie's premise for OC/DC.That's not where I am.
I totally disagree with you on the "why" Tedford dropped out of the discussion, and while I disparage McKay in general, I don't think the Dungy, Marv Lewis (attempt before Gruden) picks suggest is completely nuts. Here's the thing about your theory - first of all, coaches, not GMs, pick their staffs. Again, I think it's more about generic concerns about college guys, especially without NFL experience. It just wasn't done all that often.
This is a direct correlation to you having already accepted the owners premise. I still refuse to accept Jeff Tedford was the best proof of Lovie's offensive epiphany.Just not where you are, so I can't get to your "why" regarding Tedford's legitimacy, nor why everyone on these boards thinks this is a great fit. There is a reason that only Rich McKay (twice) and Lovie Smith (once) account for the three NFL execs that have offered Jeff Tedford a job over the past 10 years...what do YOU think the reason is? Tedford loved the University of California so much, Tedford liked teaching kids? If so, why did that change...at the same moment he stopped producing QB's that were drafted in 1st round...and hasn't produced one since...altruism?If you believe that, then what changed? Maybe the lack of interest was on Tedford's side - if so, why?None of those questions were addressed.So, until I see differently - these are the reasons I am not "drinking the kool aid". I may, I may not, but for now - I won't.
I do think your Rodgers "payment" thing is ludicrous, though (no offense), even the modified "throwing him a bone when he's down" form. Why? Because his ex-QBs routinely rave about him regardless of the year. This isn't the first time Rodgers talked about him.
It's not so ludicrous, really. It is a bit odd that he rolls his only success out, when he knew he was on the ""coaching hotseat" - I didn't say it did happen, just that it's possible.
Rodgers didn't hold a press conference to save his job or start a petition drive, WT. He's been asked, and he's answered. He did it in 2011, 2012 (after he was fired), and 2013 (after he was hired with Bucs). I'm sure he's done it other times. Do you think Tedford paid him to lie to Lovie? I suppose he went to the Super Bowl in 2011 just so he could participate in the press conferences and get paid for touting Tedford's coaching.
Rodgers didn't hold a press conference to save his job or start a petition drive, WT. He's been asked, and he's answered. He did it in 2011, 2012 (after he was fired), and 2013 (after he was hired with Bucs). I'm sure he's done it other times. Do you think Tedford paid him to lie to Lovie? I suppose he went to the Super Bowl in 2011 just so he could participate in the press conferences and get paid for touting Tedford's coaching.
Again, I'm not trying to convince you that the way I see it - is correct. My previous post above was not meant as a critique of your position. It was to establish the diferences between our positions - to others.It boils down to this: over the last 10 years, I'm kinda like the other 31 teams (maybe 30) in the NFL.To me, there was a very definite reason why no one hired Tedford.There was also a reason why Tedford stopped being relevant, both in the perceived value of the QB's he sent to the NFL, and in the win/loss column at Cal.The answer to those issues, still concerns me. They hired Tedford, knowing these questions were out there from folks (like me) who remember all of this. I didn't look up Tedford to find a reason not to like him - I did not like him for the very reasons I've outlined. Like the other 30 teams in the NFL, the busts he helped foist on 5 general managers were the reason I never even considered him as a legitimate candidate in the NFL.I allow that I may be wrong, but I'm not willing to say that right now.Due to some of the things you've posted, and the fact that I like and respect Lovie, means I will have to make a decision on accepting this - even if I never have these issues addressed.
Just curious, White Tiger, who would have been your choices?If I owned the team, I would have probably gone with Lovie or Whisenhunt, and would have interviewed Ray Horron and Aaron Kromer as well.
Just curious, White Tiger, who would have been your choices?If I owned the team, I would have probably gone with Lovie or Whisenhunt, and would have interviewed Ray Horron and Aaron Kromer as well.
If I ran the railroad - Wisenhunt would definitely have been on my list for head coach, as was Greg Roman (perhaps a bit higher on the list) and Mike Zimmer. I only considered Lovie Smith after I heard his name mentioned by some else in the media - but I dismissed that thought as some local naivete...
I'm not totally convinced on Roman, but probably would be on my interview list for sure. Also forgot, Mike Pettine. He's very intriguing to me. I'm a big fan of Mike Zimmer, DC, but there is so little apparent interest in him around the league (given his DC track record) that I suspect that people don't see his skills translating to the HC position. One reason I like Lovie - and also would have considered Whisenhunt - is that I think this organization needs the stability that a coach who has "been there, done that" provides. Our roster is at a different point too.
I'm not totally convinced on Roman, but probably would be on my interview list for sure. Also forgot, Mike Pettine. He's very intriguing to me. I'm a big fan of Mike Zimmer, DC, but there is so little apparent interest in him around the league (given his DC track record) that I suspect that people don't see his skills translating to the HC position. One reason I like Lovie - and also would have considered Whisenhunt - is that I think this organization needs the stability that a coach who has "been there, done that" provides. Our roster is at a different point too.
I agree with your comment on Lovie. With the past 5 seasons we need someone who can steady the ship first. I think the hiring alone has almost done that, or at least started us off on the right track, so let's see what he can do going forward. I think very few coaches are as stubborn/static as they are often portrayed on these boards (maybe Dungy would be an exception?). Lovie may not be able to pull it off, but I presume he has learned from the past just like we all do, every day, in our own jobs. Could be wrong, but with our past I am willing to give him a shot.On Zimmer, he must not interview well or maybe he is like I picture Marinelli, an "in the trenches" motivator type, as your comment almost suggests. Shame because he sure seems to be able to put together an organized D
I don't think Zimmer is the buffoon that Rob Ryan is, but I suspect that he's rough around the edges and maybe a bit hot-tempered for owners. I think the things that attract fans to him (and I'm one of them) turns off a lot of corporate types who run football teams. I guess we'll maybe find out in Minnesota.
I don't think Zimmer is the buffoon that Rob Ryan is, but I suspect that he's rough around the edges and maybe a bit hot-tempered for owners. I think the things that attract fans to him (and I'm one of them) turns off a lot of corporate types who run football teams. I guess we'll maybe find out in Minnesota.
yeah, I could see that. Let's see what happens in Minny.
My reaction to the Smith hiring has more to do with me thinking we could leverage the offense to do what it is supposed to do - win games. I admit, I didn't know that Lovie had some type of epiphany - but I still submit that that remains to be seen.I felt that the ownership simply wanted to trade on the goodwill Tony Dungy built (I agreed that the owners had a right to fire Dungy for not pursuing their intentions, just didn't like the way they did it to a very classy guy). Also, when I think of Lovie Smith's time in Chicago, I think of a tremendous defense - and Rex Grossman (which was almost a carbon copy of the Tampa-2 and Trent Dilfer). After the (losing) Super Bowl, Lovie went 52-44...very similar to what Gruden did after he took his Buccaneers to the (winning) Super Bowl...(45-51).Having beaten that dead horse into submission:(My) issues with Tedford are well documented, but I did like the addition of Sparano - to me - means a return to MAN-blocking schemes, which is what the offensive line was built to do, so there won't be a need to re-invent the wheel.Having said that, I think finding a Left-OT (while we can still get some good mileage out of Penn), and a replacement for Nicks, and a TE should be on the offensive wish list. Frazier - whom I didn't/don't like for personal reasons (think his character - or lack thereof - was exposed by the way he treated Freeman in Minny - and yes, I am an unabashed Freeman-ite). I am curious about the Joe Cullen hire - I'm not talking about the goofy alcohol induced portion of his life - just that I believe hes a Marinelli deisciple - that should be an incredibly important position and I think he's got a good reputation amongst his peers. Getting GMAC freed up has GOT to be a priority.So it's NOT just the idea that I thought Lovie was not the highest name on my wish list of HC's - it didn't help that I can't stand the coordinators. If they win, I don't have to like them, but they haven't won anything yet.I'm toning-down the emotional reaction to what I considered a knee-jerk, reactionary hiring of a 'goodwill coach' - losing the anger, and I'm watching the assemblage of the position coaches. Still skeptical, which frustrates me - because I like Lovie Smith, a classy, hi-character guy.
Frazier - whom I didn't/don't like for personal reasons (think his character - or lack thereof - was exposed by the way he treated Freeman in Minny - and yes, I am an unabashed Freeman-ite).
LOLPoor Joshie-pooh, first Schiano is a big meanie and then Frazier joins the vast conspiracy to destroy Freeman's career.
