Your argument is a strawman, but it is not I who made it so. Rail against the manufacturers to your heart's content, no one is listening. They're not the ones who created a demand for firearms. You remember demand don't you? It's that elephant in the room you've been pretending you can't see.
Illum, you've got it backwards, but that's okay I would never expect you to agree. Note that you've no totally abandoned your strawman - "people buy guns to support manufacturers" -- I guess it did not look so good when I removed your selective editing?Not sure what demand has to do with who the NRA represents, which was the discussion. Anyway, of course there is a demand for guns, but wait weren't you the person who posted that gun ownershipo was in decline? Wasnt that in the thread where you said "more guns = more gun violence"?By the way if "no one is listening" then why are you here . . . . . RESPONDING? Why is Dal disagreeing? Why is Spartan responding? (Illuminator's pathetic retort in 3 . . . 2 . . ) That's the thing about some of you guys (not all), you dont like what I post so you post stupid stuff like "no one is listening" . . . while ACTUALLY LISTENING and being so motivated by what you "hear" to respond? (Illuminator's pathetic retort in 3 . . . 2 . . ). Pretty silly, if you're not listening then show it . . by not posting . . . lol
Oh, and in your reply be sure to mention me as many times as possible. Then when things turn personal you can play the innocent victim who never starts anything.Or, you could stop being a hypocrite and stay on subject like you ask others to do.
are you Illuminator? you didnt say? How can I mention you if I dont know who you are? You could be a bunch of people, but my guess would be Illuminator . . . . funny that you are chastising me from a new account? That is the upside down, Planet of the Apes world of the Cove . . . to a "t"Remember the Von Mises thread? I guess some time down the road someone will joke with me about not realizing that yet another accountt is still the same old poster . . .lol By the way, this is post #9 in this thread and the first by Bucfucious . . Von Mises . . Illuminator . . ugh, you get the point:
Less guns in the wrong hands decreases gun violence. More guns in the right hands also decreases gun violence. Taking away everyone's rights and forcing them to live under government occupation would also decrease gun violence. All been covered a thousand times, someone just needs attention. Stop giving it to him.
kind of sounds like " no one is listening"? Is that you Illum?
(Illuminator's pathetic retort in 3 . . . 2 . . ) (Illuminator's pathetic retort in 3 . . . 2 . . )
Full on grade school it is then. We're done. Stop pretending you were looking for a legitimate conversation.
(Illuminator's pathetic retort in 3 . . . 2 . . ) (Illuminator's pathetic retort in 3 . . . 2 . . )
Full on grade school it is then. We're done. Stop pretending you were looking for a legitimate conversation.
Less guns in the wrong hands decreases gun violence. More guns in the right hands also decreases gun violence. Taking away everyone's rights and forcing them to live under government occupation would also decrease gun violence. All been covered a thousand times, someone just needs attention. Stop giving it to him.
so you must be Illuminator? I dont know though because there are a few of you --- not just "you" like Illuminator accounts, but a few of you who go through this nonsense?Any chance you actually answer the question as to which poster you are?
Ok, so now that that nonsense is over with (for a little while), this was the actual dicussion:
This is from Business Insider, hardly a left-wing, conspiracy floating organization: The White House and the National Rifle Association are careening toward an all-out battle, with President Barack Obama's announcement Wednesday of an expansive new agenda to crack down on gun violence. Yesterday, the NRA released an advertisement targeting the President's daughters. Today, the President directly appealed to the club's members to break ranks. One of the most interesting aspects of all is how an association for sportsmen became the prime defenders of assault weaponry. In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence. While that is still part of the organization's core function, today less than half of the NRA's revenues come from program fees and membership dues. The bulk of the group's money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources. Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it through the NRA Ring of Freedom sponsor program. Donors include firearm companies like Midway USA, Springfield Armory Inc, Pierce Bullet Seal Target Systems, and Beretta USA Corporation. Other supporters from the gun industry include Cabala's, Sturm Rugar & Co, and Smith & Wesson. The NRA also made $20.9 million — about 10 percent of its revenue — from selling advertising to industry companies marketing products in its many publications in 2010, according to the IRS Form 990. Additionally, some companies donate portions of sales directly to the NRA. Crimson Trace, which makes laser sights, donates 10 percent of each sale to the NRA. Taurus buys an NRA membership for everyone who buys one of their guns. Sturm Rugar gives $1 to the NRA for each gun sold, which amounts to millions. The NRA's revenues are intrinsically linked to the success of the gun business. The NRA Foundation also collects hundreds of thousands of dollars from the industry, which it then gives to local-level organizations for training and equipment purchases. This shift is key to understanding why a coalition of hunters, collectors and firearm enthusiasts takes the heat for incidents of gun violence, like the shooting massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, rather than the companies that manufacture and market assault weapons. The chief trade association for gun manufacturers is the National Shooting Sports Federation, which is, incidentally, located in Newtown, Conn. But the NRA takes front and center after each and every shooting. "Today's NRA is a virtual subsidiary of the gun industry," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center. "While the NRA portrays itself as protecting the 'freedom' of individual gun owners, it's actually working to protect the freedom of the gun industry to manufacture and sell virtually any weapon or accessory." There are two reasons for the industry support for the NRA. The first is that the organization develops and maintains a market for their products. The second, less direct function, is to absorb criticism in the event of PR crises for the gun industry. It's possible that without the NRA, people would be protesting outside of Glock, SIG Sauer and Freedom Group — the makers of the guns used in the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre — and dragging the CEOs in front of cameras and Congress. That is certainly what happened to tobacco executives when their products continued killing people. Notoriously, tobacco executives even attempted to form their own version of the NRA in 1993, seeing the inherent benefit to the industry that such an effort would have. Philip Morris bankrolled the National Smokers Alliance, a group that never quite had the groundswell of support the industry wanted. Notably, the tide has shifted slightly in the wake of Sandy Hook, with Cerberus Capital Management's decision to sell Freedom Group, the company that makes the Bushmaster rifle. But if history is any indication, the NRA will be front and center of the new gun control debate, while gun manufacturers remain safely out of the spotlight. Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1#ixzz32Gnrw63J Again, I relaize that the NRA carries on a Public Relation effort to suggest it is a altruistic organzation concered only with the 2nd Amendment, but seriously does anypone buy that? If so, the how was the leader of the NRA once for universal background checks and now against? Especially when the "members" are overwhelmingly for them? "Members" of the NRA are voting foot soldiers and the target of the 2nd Am. PR campaign, but the generals are the manufacturers. Again, is that even in dispute?Now, how much do those gun manufacturers give to organizations supprting the 11th Amendment? I mean, they are all Constituional altruist right?
Does anyone actually view the NRA as solely supporting the 2nd Amendment? Primarily? I would agree with secondarily.