Coming from the king of strawmen, I’ll take your word for it.
Wasn't expecting you to answer the question of "who's saying we should over-pay Winfield and not Baker", so we move on.
Wirffs will be an extension that will create room. Winfield will be tagged.
Great.
Wirfs and Winfield are the 2 most important pieces. So, as I said, they should be prioritized.
It’s not like you’ve been the harbinger of reality regarding QB value. What you have posted as your top salary/‘overpaying’ - is under the minimum franchise tag.
Lol.
Because I don't want to pay $40M+ per year on Baker freakin' Mayfield?
I think you begrudgingly posted that the top would be $30 mil.Coming from the king of strawmen, I’ll take your word for it.
Wasn't expecting you to answer the question of "who's saying we should over-pay Winfield and not Baker", so we move on.
Wirffs will be an extension that will create room. Winfield will be tagged.
Great.
Wirfs and Winfield are the 2 most important pieces. So, as I said, they should be prioritized.
It’s not like you’ve been the harbinger of reality regarding QB value. What you have posted as your top salary/‘overpaying’ - is under the minimum franchise tag.
Lol.
Because I don't want to pay $40M+ per year on Baker freakin' Mayfield?
What’s $7mil between friends?
We don’t have to agree on everything. Mostly, I like your takes…just think you undervalue Baker’s importance, to this team.
Nicely said @FeelingDangerous.
As I said, I thought Baker was legitimately undervalued by about 5 spots…maybe more, but I’ll give the nay-sayers some benefit of the doubt.
That’s ok, Bake needs some negativity to feed off of for next season. This type loves rubbing their noses in it after ‘proving it’ - again.
eh, I mean, I would put Baker somewhere around 15th-17th on this list (feels like a power ranking list). For 2023.
It's interesting that he nails the attributes/shortcomings of players like Kyler and Goff, but then ranks them higher than their stated abilities. But he also significantly overstates Dak's and Geno's abilities (could be others, but I stopped reading after Carr). I mean, "Smith is like an 85 percent version of Stafford. " Wth are you talking about, buddy? Lol. also interesting that Geno's comments begin with "he's really good." Like we have to be reminded/convinced of the idea. He goes so far as to basicaly demand that Geno remain the starter in SEA. Why is that necessary? Whole paragraph feels a little like a reach, like he's trying to convince us. He does describe Hurts' issues accurately.
I get the feeling he has watched most of these guys, but obviously he hasn't watched others nearly as much. I've lived in PHX for over 20 years now, and one of my best friends is a life-long SEA fan, so I've seen both Kyler and Geno up close on the field for multiple games. And not once have I ever thought to myself, "I feel like I'm watching Matt Stafford here," while watching Geno. That's just a really strange, out-of-left-field, comparison to me.
And how does Anthony Richardson end up at 16th after playing just 4 games? I admit I didn't watch him that much, but my brother is an IND fan, and his assessment of Richardson wasn't nearly as glowing. Though I do agree that Richardson needs to protect himself a lot better.
And his comments about Baker are curiously without specificity; "he's a mid-tier gunslinger," and "He simply played with more confidence." nothing about his play as a drop-back passer, his ability to throw with great timing/rhythm, etc. Very little concrete analysis. His comments are almost dismissive, like he has a personal issue with the player.
Whatever. Probably you're right and that blurb will be just another chip for Baker to put on his shoulder in 2024. I look forward to this guy having to eat his own words next year.
95% of Browns fans will tell you they throw out the 2021 season because of the joke that was Freddie Kitchens as HC who eventually took over for 1-31 Hue Jackson thanks to John Dorsey who was also fired at the end of the season. Noteworthy is that every good player on that team was there before Berry and Stefanski took over
They have drafted/produced not one single star in 4 years
I could spend a day on details but in a nutshell every single in 21 week the players talked about plays being called during the game that were never practiced during the week. Its all they talked about on chat boards
If Halam hadn't already had the rep for firing HC's on a whim Fredo wouldn't have lasted 8 weeks
.. and don't get any of them started on the cancer that was OBJ who continually dropped balls that looked intentional.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
I think you begrudgingly posted that the top would be $30 mil.
"Begrudgingly" posted?
Lol. Ok.
We don’t have to agree on everything. Mostly, I like your takes…just think you undervalue Baker’s importance, to this team.
You're right. We don't.
You have some takes I agree with and some that I don't.
And, while I appreciate your view that I "undervalue Baker's importance to the team"...I simply respond with the thought that you "overvalue Baker".
Clearly, we agree to disagree on this one. Nothing more, nothing less.
95% of Browns fans will tell you they throw out the 2021 season because of the joke that was Freddie Kitchens as HC who eventually took over for 1-31 Hue Jackson thanks to John Dorsey who was also fired at the end of the season. Noteworthy is that every good player on that team was there before Berry and Stefanski took over
They have drafted/produced not one single star in 4 years
I could spend a day on details but in a nutshell every single in 21 week the players talked about plays being called during the game that were never practiced during the week. Its all they talked about on chat boards
If Halam hadn't already had the rep for firing HC's on a whim Fredo wouldn't have lasted 8 weeks
.. and don't get any of them started on the cancer that was OBJ who continually dropped balls that looked intentional.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
Kitchens was OC in 2019. If you get a chance, check out Kurt Warner's assessments of Mayfield/Kitchens in 2019. Not often you hear Warner say things like, "I don't know what they're trying to do here," and "I don't like how this play is structured," and "I really don't like this play-call here," and so on. Warner usually will try pretty hard to not criticize the OC in his analyses, so when it happens you know it's not good. I'm not the best Xs and Os guy, just more of a fundamental understanding, but when even I can watch the A-22 and know that a play call is garbage before the snap, that's bad.
In 2021, Baker's issues were all injury-related. He tore his left shoulder labrum in Week 2 or 3. Sometime after that (5-6 weeks later?) he had a high ankle sprain, which I believe he played through, didn't miss any time. Iirc, after the season ended, Baker was found to have also fractured his shoulder blade. I mean, he didn't play well, that's not debatable. But he was pretty banged up; he would've played a lot better had he been healthy.
Stefanski . . . I think he's a good offensive-minded coach, except that he tends to turtle up in the biggest moments. He just wouldn't give Baker a chance to make a play during a pivotal series.
The one time he let Baker really work the deeper parts of the field in the 2nd 2020 game vs. BAL, Baker put up 40+ points, tied the game up twice after being down double-digits, and put CLE ahead late in the 4th quarter with a TD strike to Kareem Hunt, which the defense promptly lost in the last 1:04.
Baker put up 355 yards on 28/47 passing while hitting 7 different receivers multiples times, 2 TDs/1 INT for a PR of 87.5/QBR of 78.9 (elite-level), and that was with BAL doing a good job taking away CLE run game (Chubb ran for just 82 yards/Hunt 33 yards). his WRs for the day were Jarvis Landry, R. Higgins, and Donovan Peoples-Jones. A real Murderer's Row of talent. Also, didn't help that CLE fumbled the ball 7 times, including 3 by Higgins and two by Landry. But a lot of the talking heads and fans put the loss on Baker anyway, lol.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
This is pretty laughable. Coaches will put up with damn-near anything as long as the player can play. Hell, Stefanski's current QB has some "personality" traits most find abhorrent, but he's still on the team. And that's after giving up 6 draft picks, including 3 first rounders, and giving him a completely guaranteed $230M deal for this QB.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
This is pretty laughable. Coaches will put up with damn-near anything as long as the player can play. Hell, Stefanski's current QB has some "personality" traits most find abhorrent, but he's still on the team. And that's after giving up 6 draft picks, including 3 first rounders, and giving him a completely guaranteed $230M deal for this QB.
Stenfaski has a history concerning QBs. In short, he wants Brock Purdy more than he wants Josh Allen. Stefanski's system is all about minimizing the QB's role/significance to the bare minimum, his primary weapon has always been the run game, and operate mostly from PA, where the QB simply hits his back foot and throws. Playing out of structure, trying to extend plays to get to the 2nd/3rd windows is antithetical to how Stefanski likes to run his offenses. Go back and watch any number of games throughout his coaching career; it's all the same regardless of who is QB, what weapons he has, etc. Don't get me wrong; it's a good system, but his whole offensive philosophy is about reducing the QB's role/impact. Not surprising, since he comes right off the same tree as Shanahan.
How that sometimes translates in games is something like: near the end of the game, 3rd and long, potentially the last drive, Stefanski calls a screen/short timing pass, or a draw, but generally something short of the sticks, but the ball is coming out fast. Get it in the hands of one of your playmakers; which, superficially, is a good idea. But when everyone in the known universe knows that's your plan they sit on the sticks.
Now go back and watch the endings of some Stefanski games, anywhere he coached. different jerseys, same decisions, same results.
giving him a completely guaranteed $230M deal
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
This is pretty laughable. Coaches will put up with damn-near anything as long as the player can play. Hell, Stefanski's current QB has some "personality" traits most find abhorrent, but he's still on the team. And that's after giving up 6 draft picks, including 3 first rounders, and giving him a completely guaranteed $230M deal for this QB.
Stenfaski has a history concerning QBs. In short, he wants Brock Purdy more than he wants Josh Allen. Stefanski's system is all about minimizing the QB's role/significance to the bare minimum, his primary weapon has always been the run game, and operate mostly from PA, where the QB simply hits his back foot and throws. Playing out of structure, trying to extend plays to get to the 2nd/3rd windows is antithetical to how Stefanski likes to run his offenses. Go back and watch any number of games throughout his coaching career; it's all the same regardless of who is QB, what weapons he has, etc. Don't get me wrong; it's a good system, but his whole offensive philosophy is about reducing the QB's role/impact. Not surprising, since he comes right off the same tree as Shanahan.
How that sometimes translates in games is something like: near the end of the game, 3rd and long, potentially the last drive, Stefanski calls a screen/short timing pass, or a draw, but generally something short of the sticks, but the ball is coming out fast. Get it in the hands of one of your playmakers; which, superficially, is a good idea. But when everyone in the known universe knows that's your plan they sit on the sticks.
Now go back and watch the endings of some Stefanski games, anywhere he coached. different jerseys, same decisions, same results.
I love talking Browns football as much as the next fella, but I’m lost as to what any of this has to with Stefanski not being able handle Mayfield’s personality.
It's about 2021, the stupidity of the Browns and why any stats from that season are ignored by default
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
This is pretty laughable. Coaches will put up with damn-near anything as long as the player can play. Hell, Stefanski's current QB has some "personality" traits most find abhorrent, but he's still on the team. And that's after giving up 6 draft picks, including 3 first rounders, and giving him a completely guaranteed $230M deal for this QB.
Stenfaski has a history concerning QBs. In short, he wants Brock Purdy more than he wants Josh Allen. Stefanski's system is all about minimizing the QB's role/significance to the bare minimum, his primary weapon has always been the run game, and operate mostly from PA, where the QB simply hits his back foot and throws. Playing out of structure, trying to extend plays to get to the 2nd/3rd windows is antithetical to how Stefanski likes to run his offenses. Go back and watch any number of games throughout his coaching career; it's all the same regardless of who is QB, what weapons he has, etc. Don't get me wrong; it's a good system, but his whole offensive philosophy is about reducing the QB's role/impact. Not surprising, since he comes right off the same tree as Shanahan.
How that sometimes translates in games is something like: near the end of the game, 3rd and long, potentially the last drive, Stefanski calls a screen/short timing pass, or a draw, but generally something short of the sticks, but the ball is coming out fast. Get it in the hands of one of your playmakers; which, superficially, is a good idea. But when everyone in the known universe knows that's your plan they sit on the sticks.
Now go back and watch the endings of some Stefanski games, anywhere he coached. different jerseys, same decisions, same results.
He's blown about 6 games just by passing up FG's and failed 4th downs
Prior to this season the defense was a sieve that blew games on a regular basis
It's about 2021, the stupidity of the Browns and why any stats from that season are ignored by default
Boy, that’s convenient.
He's blown about 6 games just by passing up FG's and failed 4th downs
Prior to this season the defense was a sieve that blew games on a regular basis
He’s also won NFL Coach of the Year in two of the last four years. I bet that just another stat to ignore by default.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
This is pretty laughable. Coaches will put up with damn-near anything as long as the player can play. Hell, Stefanski's current QB has some "personality" traits most find abhorrent, but he's still on the team. And that's after giving up 6 draft picks, including 3 first rounders, and giving him a completely guaranteed $230M deal for this QB.
Stenfaski has a history concerning QBs. In short, he wants Brock Purdy more than he wants Josh Allen. Stefanski's system is all about minimizing the QB's role/significance to the bare minimum, his primary weapon has always been the run game, and operate mostly from PA, where the QB simply hits his back foot and throws. Playing out of structure, trying to extend plays to get to the 2nd/3rd windows is antithetical to how Stefanski likes to run his offenses. Go back and watch any number of games throughout his coaching career; it's all the same regardless of who is QB, what weapons he has, etc. Don't get me wrong; it's a good system, but his whole offensive philosophy is about reducing the QB's role/impact. Not surprising, since he comes right off the same tree as Shanahan.
How that sometimes translates in games is something like: near the end of the game, 3rd and long, potentially the last drive, Stefanski calls a screen/short timing pass, or a draw, but generally something short of the sticks, but the ball is coming out fast. Get it in the hands of one of your playmakers; which, superficially, is a good idea. But when everyone in the known universe knows that's your plan they sit on the sticks.
Now go back and watch the endings of some Stefanski games, anywhere he coached. different jerseys, same decisions, same results.
I love talking Browns football as much as the next fella, but I’m lost as to what any of this has to with Stefanski not being able handle Mayfield’s personality.
Well, to be clearer I guess, Baker is at heart a play-maker; he can throw with timing/anticipation in good rhythm; it's a fundamental part of his game. But he wants to attack the defense with deep strikes as well, and in Stefanski's offense he had to play out of structure to get those opportunities. or, I say "had to," when really Baker chose to, to be more precise. I'll bet that caused some friction with Stefanski, whose offensive philosophy runs counter to that type of Qbing. Stefanski's philosophy is 'get the ball out of the QB's hand as quickly as possible/get it to the play-makers asap.'
I should mention here that when Stefanski was named the new HC/OC in 2020, I was very happy for Baker at the time. I've always been an admirer or at least respected Stefanski as an offensive mind, and I knew that Baker would finally get some help developmentally from a top-tier OC. And I was disgusted with the CLE coaches he was saddled with when he was drafted and going into 2019. "CLE is where rookie QBs go to die," was the common saying at the time. Even now, I'd say.
anyway, Stefanski's offense is predicated on the run game, which would take some of the pressure to perform off of Baker, and the passing game would be more basic but also would give Baker plenty of short/quick throws in rhythm, something Baker was always good at. But Stefanski's offense doesn't allow for many opportunities downfield; just part of the compromise that has to be made when running that type of dink-and-dunk offense. Blahblahblah, bottom line, Baker would finally get some solid NFL coaching from a top NFL coach.
But as their relationship progressed, I thought I noticed that Stefanski began calling plays that seemed designed to keep Baker from even attempting deeper shots; like he was keeping Baker on a schematic leash. I can't remember now if it was Kurt Warner or JT Sullivan, but one of them even mentioned that in one of their analyses back in 2020 or 2021.
I mean, there were other things that probably caused friction between the two, such as the fact that Stefanski wanted Baker to work with a coach that would work on his footwork (remembering that Baker was a shotgun QB out of college and dropbacks/playing under center, and so on, were foreign to him at the time), but Baker resisted (obviously, look at his footwork now). The result was that Baker can do a three-step drop like anyone else, but all of Baker's 5- and 7-step drops are all abbreviated, which leads to compressed throwing lanes and eventually Baker getting balls batted because he's too close to the line and the DL.
And there's no denying that Baker was more immature in 2020-21. And stubborn. it hurt his development, but it also probably created more friction between him and his coaches (Stefanski). Bottom line, Stefanski wanted to put Baker on a leash, which is a confrontational/adversarial relationship, and at the time Baker wasn't able to get comfortable in that situation. I think he fought it on a subconscious level.
That last bit is one of the things that I noticed this season, his maturation as a person. It started last season when he went to LAR, but I could really see it going into the playoffs with TB this season. He protected the ball much better than I think I've ever seen him in his entire career. In other words, he didn't press as much; he became more patient. That seems to have translated into just a lot less "wth?" balls.
And it's the number 1 reason I think he could really come into his own in TB. He's more comfortable, not just in TB, but I think within himself. He's not trying to win the game on every throw or lashing out at the smallest slight anymore; he notes them but doesn't just react emotionally and get distracted by them now. Honestly, if I didn't see that maturation, I wouldn't be as sure that he's going to have a really good/great year in 2024. And beyond, if he stays in TB. Or goes to LAR or gets with Sean Payton.
But Stefanski's offense doesn't allow for many opportunities downfield
I think Joe Flacco and his 7.9 YPA this season may disagree.
At least you did put some culpability on Mayfield in the above post. Not a lot or enough, but some - and that is progress. And I agree with you on Mayfield’s maturation. He’s kept his fiery competitiveness, but grown up some too. Now if he can just be consistent week-in and week-out as a QB.