Lets laugh but not lie.I think he's middle of the pack in the NFL. Lamar, Tua, Herbert, Burrow and Lawrence are absolutely better than Mayfield. I'm not doing the who had a better year song and dance. Mayfield statistically had a better year than Mahomes, so he must be better right? This where context is key and where people have a hard time grasping.Basically he needs 3 good WRs, a good OL, and a good RB to be successful QB. What a studLOL
Mayfield was shit on in 2021 by the Browns. Specifically Stefanski.
It was OBJ who divided the locker room and set other players against him.... John Johnson III and Newsome, a rookie DB at the time who has yet to play up to his draft status
A relaxed Baker is a Dangerous Baker and once a couple holes are plugged and another WR with speed added this team will be dangerous every week
Tomorrow I buy a Bucs hat
Baker needs 'better than average,' receivers, OL and running game.
Btw, what QB doesn't? No QB can be successful without a decent OL. Even Mahomes couldn't win without an above-average OL the most notable occurrence was SBLV vs. your Bucs. But you can go back and look at the Chiefs 2019 campaign when several chiefs OLs went down to injury early that season, leading to a string of losses until he got them all back around Week 11. Even then it took several weeks for the OL to gel. ditto the 2021 season. Burrow couldn't get into the playoffs until they shored up the OL.
But Baker doesn't need "elite" OL, receivers and running game to win. Hell, your OL wasn't playing at an elite level in the playoffs this year, and Baker still handily beat GB and came within a possession of tying DET with multiple pass-rushers in his face on every passing snap. Think about how many QBs could have done better than Baker in those situations; it's not a very long list. Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrow, Stafford, and Cousins (mostly based on his career stats; the tape doesn't fully corroborate that)? After that it gets a little murkier. Maybe Lamar, Herbert, Hurts? Too early imo to include CJ Stroud. And based on Lamar's performance vs. KC last week, he's pretty iffy. And I know that Baker is better than Hurts, having watched both plenty since their OU days.
Baker isn't elite or top-5, granted. But right now he's probably the 5th best QB in the NFC. No worse than 7th. In the NFL he's no worse than 11th? And that's if you believe that Tua, Lamar, Herbert and Lawrence were better QBs than Baker in 2023, which I could argue at length that they weren't.
I mean, are we saying you can't win a SB without a top-5 QB? History seems to indicate quite the opposite.
Yes, I don't think Mayfield will win a SB here, or ever. It requires consistent high level QBing for 4 games. Mayfield biggest problem has been consistency in his career and I don't think that will change.
Hurts/Lamar, not a chance. They're better runners, but hardly better QBs. Neither has anywhere near Baker's Arm strength/talent, and Lamar/Hurts can't stand in the pocket and pass under pressure consistently. Not in their skillsets. Probably never will be for Lamar. Hurts might eventually get there. Baker is far better throwing to the deep zones, particularly down the boundaries than either of those two.
Lawrence, well, the jury's still out, imo. He's shown plenty of flashes, mostly in 2022, but he didn't grow much this season, and most thought he'd really come into his own in 2023. I didn't watch much of him this year, so I won't criticize him much here.
Tua is not in Baker's league. Tua is a very average QB with a very average arm that's been propped up by the ridiculous level of talent he's had, and yet when pressured he still can't win a playoff game, because he can't get past his 1st read and he has no ability to scramble and play out of structure when his protection breaks down. He also has no ability to win from behind. He literally can't run a 2-minute offense.
Put another way: Tua, Lamar, Hurts all need to be in a specific system, and need a lot of talent around them, and need to be out front by half time, to be successful. Baker has already proven several times over that he's not a system QB, having been relatively successful under 7 OCs, and only been a failure in one (CAR), and so far no QBs have been successful in CAR. he also doesn't need elite talent. His first two seasons in CLE his best WR was Jarvis Landry. His best TE was Demetrius Harris, due to Njoku being out for a year.
And Baker can win from a deficit. He actually plays better when his back is against the wall. Lamar, Tua and Hurts all struggle/shrink in that situation.
Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Mayfield. There's a good reason why he was the leagues MVP this year but back to the topic...
Lamar Jackson led the ENTIRE NFL in big time throws under pressure, 6 more than Mayfield with 95 less drop backs/passing attempts. Lamar had a better big time throw rate 20+ yards or more than Mayfield. He did that with Zay Flowers, Odell Beckham, and Rashod Bateman as his WR trio. Mayfield also had a higher turnover worth play % when under pressure as well. This narrative your trying hard to push that Lamar can't stand in the pocket is buffoonery. He has gotten way, way better than when he first got into the league. The ONLY thing Mayfield has him beat is arm strength category, but who cares? Arm strength isn't a testament of how good a QB is.
Lawrence led the entire NFL in big time throws this year and it wasn't really close. He is head and shoulders above Mayfield as a QB. He still has some growing up to do because like Mayfield he is prone to mistakes under duress.
Last year in Baltimore, Tua literally came back down 21 to win in the 4th quarter. But, he has no ability to win from behind according to you. Tua has 6 4th QTR comebacks, 8 game winning drives in his young career. Mayfield has 8 4th QTR comebacks, 10 game winning drives. Tua was drafted in 2020, Mayfield in 2018. That's two seasons worth of a head start. As a freshman at Bama, Tua came in and took over for a struggling Jalen Hurts in the Championship game and Alabama ended it winning. Please be serious.
Baker is a system QB. His best season prior to this past season, the Browns were an elite rushing offense. Love how you just conveniently left that out. They absolutely dominated teams on the ground at the tune of nearly 150 yards a game. They ran the football more(495 times) than they passed the football(486) attempts. But, yeah great success by Baker to just hand the ball off and manage the games.
Lamars Ceiling or rather, WALL. Is Patrick Mahomes. As good as he is, as long as he in the AFC his chances on winning more that 1 or 2 SB's, while having to deal with Reid and Mahomey. So Lamaers Ceiling is "typically" AFC Championship. NFC teams have a better chance to reach the SB on the regular if we can just build on something here.
Anyone using the GOAT as a reference for our QB needs is just setting up (false) disappointment.
same thing with using Mahomes as a reference
I’d argue that the old GOAT, wasn’t very GOAT-like in his final year in Tampa… so comparisons to reality are even subjective.
A debate about why we settle for Mayfield because he isn’t Mahomes, Allen, Jackson…is silly. Bad teams, with a lot of money, change their coaches & GM’s and they build their teams with the options they have at their disposal.
That is what’s happening here. Saying Baker has only been “elite” once in his career is a silly argument, because a 28 year old that played lights out came from a bad team, got injured, and folks wrote him off for the next Lamar Jackson…fortunately (for us), the nut job owner in Carolina, didn’t value him and cut him loose, he was picked up and given a stage - he showed what he could do with a great offensive coordinator & a ton of talent around him.
That gamble paid off - so when considering what the Bucs will pay for winning their bet - factor-in the budget-rate we got him for this year and we still got a deal on a young QB with upside, because we STILL have weapons all around.
Is it going to be elite? I hope so, but one thing I know is we are a much better team WITH Mayfield than without him.
You are correct. Most nfl teams have the manager type of QBs. Franchise qbs dont grow on trees and it takes a little luck to draft one. Either someone fell to you in the draft or you picked high enough to snag one. That said, someone listed Mayfield in the 15-17 range area and sounds about right. I wish I knew why he was inconsistent. But he’s been that way since he came into the NFL.Baker is a system QB.
He’s a little more than that because he’s a team leader (an igniter the new OC said) who also makes big throws when matters
that said most NFL QBs are system QBs or game manager types, including with some successful teams.
not trying to oversell the guy but last year he definitely made some big throws and we lose to the Lions more because the defense got run over. He was definitely inconsistent during a lot of the season so the question is why? Him? New offense? Lack of running game early?
that’s what we should learn more about next season
Again this thread…we are parading our QB for being middle of the pack. I was happy Mayfield came in and overperformed but I know his ceiling isn’t going reach us to the promise land.
Brady def wasn’t GOAT ish in his final year.I’d argue that the old GOAT, wasn’t very GOAT-like in his final year in Tampa… so comparisons to reality are even subjective.
A debate about why we settle for Mayfield because he isn’t Mahomes, Allen, Jackson…is silly. Bad teams, with a lot of money, change their coaches & GM’s and they build their teams with the options they have at their disposal.
That is what’s happening here. Saying Baker has only been “elite” once in his career is a silly argument, because a 28 year old that played lights out came from a bad team, got injured, and folks wrote him off for the next Lamar Jackson…fortunately (for us), the nut job owner in Carolina, didn’t value him and cut him loose, he was picked up and given a stage - he showed what he could do with a great offensive coordinator & a ton of talent around him.
That gamble paid off - so when considering what the Bucs will pay for winning their bet - factor-in the budget-rate we got him for this year and we still got a deal on a young QB with upside, because we STILL have weapons all around.
Is it going to be elite? I hope so, but one thing I know is we are a much better team WITH Mayfield than without him.
I compared Mayfield to his peers and some people thought he was on the level as some of these franchise qbs. Literally had someone said Mayfield was a better QB than Lawerence.
Dude is pushing 30 and had a career year, it aint an argument. It’s quite literal a fact and he did with having a plethora of talent. His supporting cast is probably top 10 in the NFL. Bucs are settling for a mid tier QB because we have no other options. We arent picking high enough and we dont have resources to sign one. Bottom line
He was the best fit available, with a live arm and a driven-to-win attitude. We could do worse.
We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…and his name was NOT Tom Brady.
i know you were here then, nobody would have confused Brad Johnson for an elite QB - but he had some elite qualities. Was he itratic? Sometimes. Did he win? Yep.
No one is claiming we lucked-into Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, etc., - but we are saying he’s good enough to win now - and some of us are saying he’s better now than anything you could get in THIS coming draft, now.
He makes us better - now - than we would be with any other QB available.
Even if we’d lost so many games that we ended up being given the consolation prize of a top round draft pick - you wouldn’t have the pieces to be this competitive for 2 to 5 years (you’d definitely lose Mike Evans)…so kick back and enjoy it. It really doesn’t happen often.
Again this thread…we are parading our QB for being middle of the pack. I was happy Mayfield came in and overperformed but I know his ceiling isn’t going reach us to the promise land.
It was difficult reading all the "books" in this thread, but this couple of sentences says it all.
I’d argue that the old GOAT, wasn’t very GOAT-like in his final year in Tampa… so comparisons to reality are even subjective.
A debate about why we settle for Mayfield because he isn’t Mahomes, Allen, Jackson…is silly. Bad teams, with a lot of money, change their coaches & GM’s and they build their teams with the options they have at their disposal.
That is what’s happening here. Saying Baker has only been “elite” once in his career is a silly argument, because a 28 year old that played lights out came from a bad team, got injured, and folks wrote him off for the next Lamar Jackson…fortunately (for us), the nut job owner in Carolina, didn’t value him and cut him loose, he was picked up and given a stage - he showed what he could do with a great offensive coordinator & a ton of talent around him.
That gamble paid off - so when considering what the Bucs will pay for winning their bet - factor-in the budget-rate we got him for this year and we still got a deal on a young QB with upside, because we STILL have weapons all around.
Is it going to be elite? I hope so, but one thing I know is we are a much better team WITH Mayfield than without him.
excellent mic drop post…yet Again. I see u.
You all are saying he is good enough to a win a super bowl. I dont think so though. I think he’s the best option next year though.He was the best fit available, with a live arm and a driven-to-win attitude. We could do worse.
We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…and his name was NOT Tom Brady.
i know you were here then, nobody would have confused Brad Johnson for an elite QB - but he had some elite qualities. Was he itratic? Sometimes. Did he win? Yep.
No one is claiming we lucked-into Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, etc., - but we are saying he’s good enough to win now - and some of us are saying he’s better now than anything you could get in THIS coming draft, now.
He makes us better - now - than we would be with any other QB available.
Even if we’d lost so many games that we ended up being given the consolation prize of a top round draft pick - you wouldn’t have the pieces to be this competitive for 2 to 5 years (you’d definitely lose Mike Evans)…so kick back and enjoy it. It really doesn’t happen often.
You all are saying he is good enough to a win a super bowl. I dont think so though. I think he’s the best option next year though.He was the best fit available, with a live arm and a driven-to-win attitude. We could do worse.
We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…and his name was NOT Tom Brady.
i know you were here then, nobody would have confused Brad Johnson for an elite QB - but he had some elite qualities. Was he itratic? Sometimes. Did he win? Yep.
No one is claiming we lucked-into Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, etc., - but we are saying he’s good enough to win now - and some of us are saying he’s better now than anything you could get in THIS coming draft, now.
He makes us better - now - than we would be with any other QB available.
Even if we’d lost so many games that we ended up being given the consolation prize of a top round draft pick - you wouldn’t have the pieces to be this competitive for 2 to 5 years (you’d definitely lose Mike Evans)…so kick back and enjoy it. It really doesn’t happen often.
I would say that an argument can be made that he is a Better QB Now, than Trent Dilfer Was during his SB winning year. With that being said, Dilfer WON because of his defense. Its a team game. Ideally, in any "team" founded sport, there should be a chance that the collective team can overcome/carry the "burden" of any single player. See 85 Bears(ish), see Trent Dilfer, he did enough. Can Baker Do enough, well that depends on his team mates.
We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…
Lol. Love it.
This poster is bringing the entertainment.
Lets laugh but not lie.I think he's middle of the pack in the NFL. Lamar, Tua, Herbert, Burrow and Lawrence are absolutely better than Mayfield. I'm not doing the who had a better year song and dance. Mayfield statistically had a better year than Mahomes, so he must be better right? This where context is key and where people have a hard time grasping.Basically he needs 3 good WRs, a good OL, and a good RB to be successful QB. What a studLOL
Mayfield was shit on in 2021 by the Browns. Specifically Stefanski.
It was OBJ who divided the locker room and set other players against him.... John Johnson III and Newsome, a rookie DB at the time who has yet to play up to his draft status
A relaxed Baker is a Dangerous Baker and once a couple holes are plugged and another WR with speed added this team will be dangerous every week
Tomorrow I buy a Bucs hat
Baker needs 'better than average,' receivers, OL and running game.
Btw, what QB doesn't? No QB can be successful without a decent OL. Even Mahomes couldn't win without an above-average OL the most notable occurrence was SBLV vs. your Bucs. But you can go back and look at the Chiefs 2019 campaign when several chiefs OLs went down to injury early that season, leading to a string of losses until he got them all back around Week 11. Even then it took several weeks for the OL to gel. ditto the 2021 season. Burrow couldn't get into the playoffs until they shored up the OL.
But Baker doesn't need "elite" OL, receivers and running game to win. Hell, your OL wasn't playing at an elite level in the playoffs this year, and Baker still handily beat GB and came within a possession of tying DET with multiple pass-rushers in his face on every passing snap. Think about how many QBs could have done better than Baker in those situations; it's not a very long list. Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrow, Stafford, and Cousins (mostly based on his career stats; the tape doesn't fully corroborate that)? After that it gets a little murkier. Maybe Lamar, Herbert, Hurts? Too early imo to include CJ Stroud. And based on Lamar's performance vs. KC last week, he's pretty iffy. And I know that Baker is better than Hurts, having watched both plenty since their OU days.
Baker isn't elite or top-5, granted. But right now he's probably the 5th best QB in the NFC. No worse than 7th. In the NFL he's no worse than 11th? And that's if you believe that Tua, Lamar, Herbert and Lawrence were better QBs than Baker in 2023, which I could argue at length that they weren't.
I mean, are we saying you can't win a SB without a top-5 QB? History seems to indicate quite the opposite.
Yes, I don't think Mayfield will win a SB here, or ever. It requires consistent high level QBing for 4 games. Mayfield biggest problem has been consistency in his career and I don't think that will change.
Hurts/Lamar, not a chance. They're better runners, but hardly better QBs. Neither has anywhere near Baker's Arm strength/talent, and Lamar/Hurts can't stand in the pocket and pass under pressure consistently. Not in their skillsets. Probably never will be for Lamar. Hurts might eventually get there. Baker is far better throwing to the deep zones, particularly down the boundaries than either of those two.
Lawrence, well, the jury's still out, imo. He's shown plenty of flashes, mostly in 2022, but he didn't grow much this season, and most thought he'd really come into his own in 2023. I didn't watch much of him this year, so I won't criticize him much here.
Tua is not in Baker's league. Tua is a very average QB with a very average arm that's been propped up by the ridiculous level of talent he's had, and yet when pressured he still can't win a playoff game, because he can't get past his 1st read and he has no ability to scramble and play out of structure when his protection breaks down. He also has no ability to win from behind. He literally can't run a 2-minute offense.
Put another way: Tua, Lamar, Hurts all need to be in a specific system, and need a lot of talent around them, and need to be out front by half time, to be successful. Baker has already proven several times over that he's not a system QB, having been relatively successful under 7 OCs, and only been a failure in one (CAR), and so far no QBs have been successful in CAR. he also doesn't need elite talent. His first two seasons in CLE his best WR was Jarvis Landry. His best TE was Demetrius Harris, due to Njoku being out for a year.
And Baker can win from a deficit. He actually plays better when his back is against the wall. Lamar, Tua and Hurts all struggle/shrink in that situation.
Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Mayfield. There's a good reason why he was the leagues MVP this year but back to the topic...
Lamar Jackson led the ENTIRE NFL in big time throws under pressure, 6 more than Mayfield with 95 less drop backs/passing attempts. Lamar had a better big time throw rate 20+ yards or more than Mayfield. He did that with Zay Flowers, Odell Beckham, and Rashod Bateman as his WR trio. Mayfield also had a higher turnover worth play % when under pressure as well. This narrative your trying hard to push that Lamar can't stand in the pocket is buffoonery. He has gotten way, way better than when he first got into the league. The ONLY thing Mayfield has him beat is arm strength category, but who cares? Arm strength isn't a testament of how good a QB is.
Lawrence led the entire NFL in big time throws this year and it wasn't really close. He is head and shoulders above Mayfield as a QB. He still has some growing up to do because like Mayfield he is prone to mistakes under duress.
Last year in Baltimore, Tua literally came back down 21 to win in the 4th quarter. But, he has no ability to win from behind according to you. Tua has 6 4th QTR comebacks, 8 game winning drives in his young career. Mayfield has 8 4th QTR comebacks, 10 game winning drives. Tua was drafted in 2020, Mayfield in 2018. That's two seasons worth of a head start. As a freshman at Bama, Tua came in and took over for a struggling Jalen Hurts in the Championship game and Alabama ended it winning. Please be serious.
Baker is a system QB. His best season prior to this past season, the Browns were an elite rushing offense. Love how you just conveniently left that out. They absolutely dominated teams on the ground at the tune of nearly 150 yards a game. They ran the football more(495 times) than they passed the football(486) attempts. But, yeah great success by Baker to just hand the ball off and manage the games.
yeah, the stats for Lamar are a bit skewed. But whatever. No need to drop a few dozen stats here.
Here's the thing that matters: KC has played BAL something like 5 times since Lamar became the starting QB, and Spags gameplan has been fundamentally the same since the first game, which is simply stuff their run game and force Lamar to be a pocket passer. Specifically clog the middle of the field between the numbers out to about 12 yards deep. Make Lamar throw over the middle, where he wants to go, and outside.
And pretty much every single time Lamar proves that he can't do it. He isn't very good at pre-snap adjustments/reads, he isn't very good at going through his progressions, is very inconsistent about knowing where his hots are, and often doesn't know where his outlet is. And he lacks the armstrength to throw very deep outside, coupled with the lack of arm talent, or touch, to consistently make throws along the boundaries beyond 25 yards. Those are just the facts.
Over on CP we've got a dozen threads about Lamar, in the regular season and playoffs, dating back to 2018, the resident gurus have broken down the games and Lamar's performances, we've argued about all the professional breakdowns from Kurt Warner, Baldinger, Orlovsky, JT Sullivan, and so on, and it always comes down to the same things: Lamar is fine as long as he can run or hand the ball off. Once you take that away, he's very average as a passer.
And this most recent AFCCG just proves Spags' rule. Lamar went 54% completion%, only completed 20 passes, 272 yards (net 255yds), 1 TD/1 INT, 4 sacks, QBR 42.9 (well below average), PR 75.5 (below average). And we could go back and look at each game he's played vs. KC and the results are remarkably similar game-to-game, in yards, completion%, QBR/PR, sacks, etc.
And in three of those matchups we were trotting out the likes of Hitchens, Sorenson, Ben Nieman, Chavarius Ward and B. Breeland. And we blitzed even more in those early games, because our safeties and CBs weren't going to hold up very long, and it still worked like a charm.
But I get it. You believe Lamar is elite. That's fine. I know he's not, at least he's not without his legs. But I'm not really here to get into an argument about Lamar.
And Tua, lol, is really really average, maybe below average. Look at his performances just this season when he was behind/tied at HT. just a small taste: vs. PHI around Week 9: couldn't score an offensive point in the 2nd half against what we now know was one of the worst secondaries in the league.
vs. KC two weeks later: couldn't score a point in the 2nd half. The weather was fine, btw.
vs. a bad TEN team a few weeks later: managed just a pair of FGs and a TD off a TEN fumble inside their own 15 yard line to STILL lose by 1.
0 2nd half points vs. BUF Week 18, when the BUF defense was decimated by injuries.
Then the WC game vs. KC: 51% passing, 5.1yds/att, 1 TD/1 INT, 15.9 QBR, 63.9 PR. I mean, I guess one could argue it was cold, but I mean he's supposed to be an "elite NFL QB"? Tua is propped up by his weapons and possibly his HC/OC. Without Hill/Waddle/Achane/Mostert etc., Tua is a sub-average NFL QB, regardless of what a couple stat lines might say, the results and the tape say something quite different.
Lets laugh but not lie.I think he's middle of the pack in the NFL. Lamar, Tua, Herbert, Burrow and Lawrence are absolutely better than Mayfield. I'm not doing the who had a better year song and dance. Mayfield statistically had a better year than Mahomes, so he must be better right? This where context is key and where people have a hard time grasping.Basically he needs 3 good WRs, a good OL, and a good RB to be successful QB. What a studLOL
Mayfield was shit on in 2021 by the Browns. Specifically Stefanski.
It was OBJ who divided the locker room and set other players against him.... John Johnson III and Newsome, a rookie DB at the time who has yet to play up to his draft status
A relaxed Baker is a Dangerous Baker and once a couple holes are plugged and another WR with speed added this team will be dangerous every week
Tomorrow I buy a Bucs hat
Baker needs 'better than average,' receivers, OL and running game.
Btw, what QB doesn't? No QB can be successful without a decent OL. Even Mahomes couldn't win without an above-average OL the most notable occurrence was SBLV vs. your Bucs. But you can go back and look at the Chiefs 2019 campaign when several chiefs OLs went down to injury early that season, leading to a string of losses until he got them all back around Week 11. Even then it took several weeks for the OL to gel. ditto the 2021 season. Burrow couldn't get into the playoffs until they shored up the OL.
But Baker doesn't need "elite" OL, receivers and running game to win. Hell, your OL wasn't playing at an elite level in the playoffs this year, and Baker still handily beat GB and came within a possession of tying DET with multiple pass-rushers in his face on every passing snap. Think about how many QBs could have done better than Baker in those situations; it's not a very long list. Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrow, Stafford, and Cousins (mostly based on his career stats; the tape doesn't fully corroborate that)? After that it gets a little murkier. Maybe Lamar, Herbert, Hurts? Too early imo to include CJ Stroud. And based on Lamar's performance vs. KC last week, he's pretty iffy. And I know that Baker is better than Hurts, having watched both plenty since their OU days.
Baker isn't elite or top-5, granted. But right now he's probably the 5th best QB in the NFC. No worse than 7th. In the NFL he's no worse than 11th? And that's if you believe that Tua, Lamar, Herbert and Lawrence were better QBs than Baker in 2023, which I could argue at length that they weren't.
I mean, are we saying you can't win a SB without a top-5 QB? History seems to indicate quite the opposite.
Yes, I don't think Mayfield will win a SB here, or ever. It requires consistent high level QBing for 4 games. Mayfield biggest problem has been consistency in his career and I don't think that will change.
Hurts/Lamar, not a chance. They're better runners, but hardly better QBs. Neither has anywhere near Baker's Arm strength/talent, and Lamar/Hurts can't stand in the pocket and pass under pressure consistently. Not in their skillsets. Probably never will be for Lamar. Hurts might eventually get there. Baker is far better throwing to the deep zones, particularly down the boundaries than either of those two.
Lawrence, well, the jury's still out, imo. He's shown plenty of flashes, mostly in 2022, but he didn't grow much this season, and most thought he'd really come into his own in 2023. I didn't watch much of him this year, so I won't criticize him much here.
Tua is not in Baker's league. Tua is a very average QB with a very average arm that's been propped up by the ridiculous level of talent he's had, and yet when pressured he still can't win a playoff game, because he can't get past his 1st read and he has no ability to scramble and play out of structure when his protection breaks down. He also has no ability to win from behind. He literally can't run a 2-minute offense.
Put another way: Tua, Lamar, Hurts all need to be in a specific system, and need a lot of talent around them, and need to be out front by half time, to be successful. Baker has already proven several times over that he's not a system QB, having been relatively successful under 7 OCs, and only been a failure in one (CAR), and so far no QBs have been successful in CAR. he also doesn't need elite talent. His first two seasons in CLE his best WR was Jarvis Landry. His best TE was Demetrius Harris, due to Njoku being out for a year.
And Baker can win from a deficit. He actually plays better when his back is against the wall. Lamar, Tua and Hurts all struggle/shrink in that situation.
Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Mayfield. There's a good reason why he was the leagues MVP this year but back to the topic...
Lamar Jackson led the ENTIRE NFL in big time throws under pressure, 6 more than Mayfield with 95 less drop backs/passing attempts. Lamar had a better big time throw rate 20+ yards or more than Mayfield. He did that with Zay Flowers, Odell Beckham, and Rashod Bateman as his WR trio. Mayfield also had a higher turnover worth play % when under pressure as well. This narrative your trying hard to push that Lamar can't stand in the pocket is buffoonery. He has gotten way, way better than when he first got into the league. The ONLY thing Mayfield has him beat is arm strength category, but who cares? Arm strength isn't a testament of how good a QB is.
Lawrence led the entire NFL in big time throws this year and it wasn't really close. He is head and shoulders above Mayfield as a QB. He still has some growing up to do because like Mayfield he is prone to mistakes under duress.
Last year in Baltimore, Tua literally came back down 21 to win in the 4th quarter. But, he has no ability to win from behind according to you. Tua has 6 4th QTR comebacks, 8 game winning drives in his young career. Mayfield has 8 4th QTR comebacks, 10 game winning drives. Tua was drafted in 2020, Mayfield in 2018. That's two seasons worth of a head start. As a freshman at Bama, Tua came in and took over for a struggling Jalen Hurts in the Championship game and Alabama ended it winning. Please be serious.
Baker is a system QB. His best season prior to this past season, the Browns were an elite rushing offense. Love how you just conveniently left that out. They absolutely dominated teams on the ground at the tune of nearly 150 yards a game. They ran the football more(495 times) than they passed the football(486) attempts. But, yeah great success by Baker to just hand the ball off and manage the games.
Lamars Ceiling or rather, WALL. Is Patrick Mahomes. As good as he is, as long as he in the AFC his chances on winning more that 1 or 2 SB's, while having to deal with Reid and Mahomey. So Lamaers Ceiling is "typically" AFC Championship. NFC teams have a better chance to reach the SB on the regular if we can just build on something here.
Sorry about the text wall; I still haven't figured out how to quote just one person in here.
Anyway,
I'm sorry, but no. Lamar just isn't that good a QB. He's an elite runner that happens to throw the ball some. If he had to stand and throw, or if he just could only run 3-4 times a game, he'd be a JAG QB.
well, the defense was world class - just trying to put a little emphasis on the fact that that defense didn’t win a Super Bowl until the offense was capable. This defense is no where near that one. However, the sum is better than its parts.We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…
Lol. Love it.
This poster is bringing the entertainment.
One won’t win without the other.
Mayfield is the missing link…or so says Todd Bowles and Jason Licht.
Lets laugh but not lie.I think he's middle of the pack in the NFL. Lamar, Tua, Herbert, Burrow and Lawrence are absolutely better than Mayfield. I'm not doing the who had a better year song and dance. Mayfield statistically had a better year than Mahomes, so he must be better right? This where context is key and where people have a hard time grasping.Basically he needs 3 good WRs, a good OL, and a good RB to be successful QB. What a studLOL
Mayfield was shit on in 2021 by the Browns. Specifically Stefanski.
It was OBJ who divided the locker room and set other players against him.... John Johnson III and Newsome, a rookie DB at the time who has yet to play up to his draft status
A relaxed Baker is a Dangerous Baker and once a couple holes are plugged and another WR with speed added this team will be dangerous every week
Tomorrow I buy a Bucs hat
Baker needs 'better than average,' receivers, OL and running game.
Btw, what QB doesn't? No QB can be successful without a decent OL. Even Mahomes couldn't win without an above-average OL the most notable occurrence was SBLV vs. your Bucs. But you can go back and look at the Chiefs 2019 campaign when several chiefs OLs went down to injury early that season, leading to a string of losses until he got them all back around Week 11. Even then it took several weeks for the OL to gel. ditto the 2021 season. Burrow couldn't get into the playoffs until they shored up the OL.
But Baker doesn't need "elite" OL, receivers and running game to win. Hell, your OL wasn't playing at an elite level in the playoffs this year, and Baker still handily beat GB and came within a possession of tying DET with multiple pass-rushers in his face on every passing snap. Think about how many QBs could have done better than Baker in those situations; it's not a very long list. Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrow, Stafford, and Cousins (mostly based on his career stats; the tape doesn't fully corroborate that)? After that it gets a little murkier. Maybe Lamar, Herbert, Hurts? Too early imo to include CJ Stroud. And based on Lamar's performance vs. KC last week, he's pretty iffy. And I know that Baker is better than Hurts, having watched both plenty since their OU days.
Baker isn't elite or top-5, granted. But right now he's probably the 5th best QB in the NFC. No worse than 7th. In the NFL he's no worse than 11th? And that's if you believe that Tua, Lamar, Herbert and Lawrence were better QBs than Baker in 2023, which I could argue at length that they weren't.
I mean, are we saying you can't win a SB without a top-5 QB? History seems to indicate quite the opposite.
Yes, I don't think Mayfield will win a SB here, or ever. It requires consistent high level QBing for 4 games. Mayfield biggest problem has been consistency in his career and I don't think that will change.
Hurts/Lamar, not a chance. They're better runners, but hardly better QBs. Neither has anywhere near Baker's Arm strength/talent, and Lamar/Hurts can't stand in the pocket and pass under pressure consistently. Not in their skillsets. Probably never will be for Lamar. Hurts might eventually get there. Baker is far better throwing to the deep zones, particularly down the boundaries than either of those two.
Lawrence, well, the jury's still out, imo. He's shown plenty of flashes, mostly in 2022, but he didn't grow much this season, and most thought he'd really come into his own in 2023. I didn't watch much of him this year, so I won't criticize him much here.
Tua is not in Baker's league. Tua is a very average QB with a very average arm that's been propped up by the ridiculous level of talent he's had, and yet when pressured he still can't win a playoff game, because he can't get past his 1st read and he has no ability to scramble and play out of structure when his protection breaks down. He also has no ability to win from behind. He literally can't run a 2-minute offense.
Put another way: Tua, Lamar, Hurts all need to be in a specific system, and need a lot of talent around them, and need to be out front by half time, to be successful. Baker has already proven several times over that he's not a system QB, having been relatively successful under 7 OCs, and only been a failure in one (CAR), and so far no QBs have been successful in CAR. he also doesn't need elite talent. His first two seasons in CLE his best WR was Jarvis Landry. His best TE was Demetrius Harris, due to Njoku being out for a year.
And Baker can win from a deficit. He actually plays better when his back is against the wall. Lamar, Tua and Hurts all struggle/shrink in that situation.
Lamar Jackson is a better QB than Mayfield. There's a good reason why he was the leagues MVP this year but back to the topic...
Lamar Jackson led the ENTIRE NFL in big time throws under pressure, 6 more than Mayfield with 95 less drop backs/passing attempts. Lamar had a better big time throw rate 20+ yards or more than Mayfield. He did that with Zay Flowers, Odell Beckham, and Rashod Bateman as his WR trio. Mayfield also had a higher turnover worth play % when under pressure as well. This narrative your trying hard to push that Lamar can't stand in the pocket is buffoonery. He has gotten way, way better than when he first got into the league. The ONLY thing Mayfield has him beat is arm strength category, but who cares? Arm strength isn't a testament of how good a QB is.
Lawrence led the entire NFL in big time throws this year and it wasn't really close. He is head and shoulders above Mayfield as a QB. He still has some growing up to do because like Mayfield he is prone to mistakes under duress.
Last year in Baltimore, Tua literally came back down 21 to win in the 4th quarter. But, he has no ability to win from behind according to you. Tua has 6 4th QTR comebacks, 8 game winning drives in his young career. Mayfield has 8 4th QTR comebacks, 10 game winning drives. Tua was drafted in 2020, Mayfield in 2018. That's two seasons worth of a head start. As a freshman at Bama, Tua came in and took over for a struggling Jalen Hurts in the Championship game and Alabama ended it winning. Please be serious.
Baker is a system QB. His best season prior to this past season, the Browns were an elite rushing offense. Love how you just conveniently left that out. They absolutely dominated teams on the ground at the tune of nearly 150 yards a game. They ran the football more(495 times) than they passed the football(486) attempts. But, yeah great success by Baker to just hand the ball off and manage the games.
yeah, the stats for Lamar are a bit skewed. But whatever. No need to drop a few dozen stats here.
Here's the thing that matters: KC has played BAL something like 5 times since Lamar became the starting QB, and Spags gameplan has been fundamentally the same since the first game, which is simply stuff their run game and force Lamar to be a pocket passer. Specifically clog the middle of the field between the numbers out to about 12 yards deep. Make Lamar throw over the middle, where he wants to go, and outside.
And pretty much every single time Lamar proves that he can't do it. He isn't very good at pre-snap adjustments/reads, he isn't very good at going through his progressions, is very inconsistent about knowing where his hots are, and often doesn't know where his outlet is. And he lacks the armstrength to throw very deep outside, coupled with the lack of arm talent, or touch, to consistently make throws along the boundaries beyond 25 yards. Those are just the facts.
Over on CP we've got a dozen threads about Lamar, in the regular season and playoffs, dating back to 2018, the resident gurus have broken down the games and Lamar's performances, we've argued about all the professional breakdowns from Kurt Warner, Baldinger, Orlovsky, JT Sullivan, and so on, and it always comes down to the same things: Lamar is fine as long as he can run or hand the ball off. Once you take that away, he's very average as a passer.
And this most recent AFCCG just proves Spags' rule. Lamar went 54% completion%, only completed 20 passes, 272 yards (net 255yds), 1 TD/1 INT, 4 sacks, QBR 42.9 (well below average), PR 75.5 (below average). And we could go back and look at each game he's played vs. KC and the results are remarkably similar game-to-game, in yards, completion%, QBR/PR, sacks, etc.
And in three of those matchups we were trotting out the likes of Hitchens, Sorenson, Ben Nieman, Chavarius Ward and B. Breeland. And we blitzed even more in those early games, because our safeties and CBs weren't going to hold up very long, and it still worked like a charm.
But I get it. You believe Lamar is elite. That's fine. I know he's not, at least he's not without his legs. But I'm not really here to get into an argument about Lamar.
And Tua, lol, is really really average, maybe below average. Look at his performances just this season when he was behind/tied at HT. just a small taste: vs. PHI around Week 9: couldn't score an offensive point in the 2nd half against what we now know was one of the worst secondaries in the league.
vs. KC two weeks later: couldn't score a point in the 2nd half. The weather was fine, btw.
vs. a bad TEN team a few weeks later: managed just a pair of FGs and a TD off a TEN fumble inside their own 15 yard line to STILL lose by 1.
0 2nd half points vs. BUF Week 18, when the BUF defense was decimated by injuries.
Then the WC game vs. KC: 51% passing, 5.1yds/att, 1 TD/1 INT, 15.9 QBR, 63.9 PR. I mean, I guess one could argue it was cold, but I mean he's supposed to be an "elite NFL QB"? Tua is propped up by his weapons and possibly his HC/OC. Without Hill/Waddle/Achane/Mostert etc., Tua is a sub-average NFL QB, regardless of what a couple stat lines might say, the results and the tape say something quite different.
Exactly, context matters. Thats why we record stats, but stats are cold hard math that lack context. For example, Ballerz had a rough 2021 but was injured, Ballerz thru an INT on the first drive of the Lions game, the stat lines are technically accurate, but "off base." The context "fleshes the stat lines out." For us, as fans and observers of football, if we only rely on "stats" without Knowing the context...well that's only half..."Knowing is (the other) Half the battle"-G.I. Joe
With that being said, I have never watched Llamar play, not EVER. But, the "vibe" I get just reading comments, following the playoffs from a distance, Llamar is a "system" QB? And he is the "prototype" run/pass dual threat. The problem, I guess, his passing ability is not QUITE elite? Good in Medium to short and best running QB possible ever? But, and I ask this because Ive never seen him play, like a WAYYYY Better version of Cordell Stewart? I don't think that can beat both Reid and Mahomey on the regular. So regardless of how good Llamar is, his Ceiling is Reid and Mahomey food, year in and year out...I hope he's able to steal a few. In order to do that though, he needs to develop better as a Passer, his legs are already more than enough?
As for Me, I am quite pleased with Ballerz arm. Its well documented that I doubted it so hard I had to like really pay attention during the Iggles and Lions game. That guy has a CRIMINALLY UNDERRATED(-Mike Evans)'ARM talent.
As for Me, I am quite pleased with Ballerz arm. Its well documented that I doubted it so hard I had to like really pay attention during the Iggles and Lions game. That guy has a CRIMINALLY UNDERRATED(-Mike Evans)'ARM talent. Context matters. The Stat line suggest 2023 was his best statistical year ever, contextually he had a good start, terrible middle, and OUTStanding End of the season. He ended with a bang/Int (unfortunately), He deserved one more play, but the HC decided against it, the game was over. At this point, it can infold in any number of manners, very few are vanilla This OofSeason. Popcorn + Crow. Yum
