I’d argue that the old GOAT, wasn’t very GOAT-like in his final year in Tampa… so comparisons to reality are even subjective.
A debate about why we settle for Mayfield because he isn’t Mahomes, Allen, Jackson…is silly. Bad teams, with a lot of money, change their coaches & GM’s and they build their teams with the options they have at their disposal.
That is what’s happening here. Saying Baker has only been “elite” once in his career is a silly argument, because a 28 year old that played lights out came from a bad team, got injured, and folks wrote him off for the next Lamar Jackson…fortunately (for us), the nut job owner in Carolina, didn’t value him and cut him loose, he was picked up and given a stage - he showed what he could do with a great offensive coordinator & a ton of talent around him.
That gamble paid off - so when considering what the Bucs will pay for winning their bet - factor-in the budget-rate we got him for this year and we still got a deal on a young QB with upside, because we STILL have weapons all around.
Is it going to be elite? I hope so, but one thing I know is we are a much better team WITH Mayfield than without him.
excellent mic drop post…yet Again. I see u.
agreed
His supporting cast is probably top 10 in the NFL.
I assume you are speaking of last year, but is this really true? I am asking, not making a point.
I wonder because we basically could not run the ball until the last 1/3rd of the season and that is because of a substandard line and certainly substandard TE play and a running back who had to be coached to hit the hole. Evans and Godwin are amazing, but again in the first half of the year Godwin is basically outside and so not providing his usual. Our third receiver was mostly a committee of rookies and "one note" guys, with the lead guy Palmer dropping balls, running bad routes and fumbling.
Maybe - and I am definitely willing to concede this - that is just MY PERCEPTION and the statistical reality is different BUT IF SO isn't Mayfield ONME big part of the CAST. In other words, one big reason we would be "top ten," if we were? I say that because the argument against Mayfield by most here sport of amounts to "he was good but should've been great" (even though he had a carer year) or "hes not elite." Well, doesn't that imply he was at least pretty good?
im
His supporting cast is probably top 10 in the NFL.
I assume you are speaking of last year, but is this really true? I am asking, not making a point.
I wonder because we basically could not run the ball until the last 1/3rd of the season and that is because of a substandard line and certainly substandard TE play and a running back who had to be coached to hit the hole. Evans and Godwin are amazing, but again in the first half of the year Godwin is basically outside and so not providing his usual. Our third receiver was mostly a committee of rookies and "one note" guys, with the lead guy Palmer dropping balls, running bad routes and fumbling.
Maybe - and I am definitely willing to concede this - that is just MY PERCEPTION and the statistical reality is different BUT IF SO isn't Mayfield ONME big part of the CAST. In other words, one big reason we would be "top ten," if we were? I say that because the argument against Mayfield by most here sport of amounts to "he was good but should've been great" (even though he had a carer year) or "hes not elite." Well, doesn't that imply he was at least pretty good?
im
lol not even close. Our WRs are top 10 although non biased fans around the league could argue that point.RB and TE are mediocre at best.id put Bucs weapons in the 15 to 20 range, which wouldn’t you believe it that’s where bakers at too, and guess what our regular season record too!
yeah, the stats for Lamar are a bit skewed. But whatever. No need to drop a few dozen stats here.
Nah, stats are needed because people like you like to make claims with no evidence to even support it. So here we are. You aren't going to be able to back pedal out of this one buddy. Stats like big time throws under pressure can't possibly be "skewed".
Here's the thing that matters: KC has played BAL something like 5 times since Lamar became the starting QB, and Spags gameplan has been fundamentally the same since the first game, which is simply stuff their run game and force Lamar to be a pocket passer. Specifically clog the middle of the field between the numbers out to about 12 yards deep. Make Lamar throw over the middle, where he wants to go, and outside.
And pretty much every single time Lamar proves that he can't do it. He isn't very good at pre-snap adjustments/reads, he isn't very good at going through his progressions, is very inconsistent about knowing where his hots are, and often doesn't know where his outlet is. And he lacks the armstrength to throw very deep outside, coupled with the lack of arm talent, or touch, to consistently make throws along the boundaries beyond 25 yards. Those are just the facts.
Over on CP we've got a dozen threads about Lamar, in the regular season and playoffs, dating back to 2018, the resident gurus have broken down the games and Lamar's performances, we've argued about all the professional breakdowns from Kurt Warner, Baldinger, Orlovsky, JT Sullivan, and so on, and it always comes down to the same things: Lamar is fine as long as he can run or hand the ball off. Once you take that away, he's very average as a passer.
And this most recent AFCCG just proves Spags' rule. Lamar went 54% completion%, only completed 20 passes, 272 yards (net 255yds), 1 TD/1 INT, 4 sacks, QBR 42.9 (well below average), PR 75.5 (below average). And we could go back and look at each game he's played vs. KC and the results are remarkably similar game-to-game, in yards, completion%, QBR/PR, sacks, etc.
And in three of those matchups we were trotting out the likes of Hitchens, Sorenson, Ben Nieman, Chavarius Ward and B. Breeland. And we blitzed even more in those early games, because our safeties and CBs weren't going to hold up very long, and it still worked like a charm.
But I get it. You believe Lamar is elite. That's fine. I know he's not, at least he's not without his legs. But I'm not really here to get into an argument about Lamar.
Yeah, Lamar is elite, just because Spags who's arguably the best DC in the entire NFL knows how to gameplan isn't a slight to Lamar. Your trying pinpoint one team out of 31 others that know how to defend Lamar. And it's not like Lamar has any good boundary WR's in his career to help him win those boundary throws. In the most recent game Lamar had a WR who fumbled that ball on the goal-line to try to score a TD that completely changed the game. They had to play catch-up after he was let down by mistakes from teammates. And I'm pretty sure a couple of those WR's dropped some passes that day too. So your not proving anything here. The best DC in the NFL knows how to defend Lamar well, so that means he isn't an elite QB is not really convincing. That's like saying Peyton Manning wasn't an elite QB because Bill Belicheck knew how to defend and gameplan against the Colts. Just a dumb argument to make.
And Tua, lol, is really really average, maybe below average. Look at his performances just this season when he was behind/tied at HT. just a small taste: vs. PHI around Week 9: couldn't score an offensive point in the 2nd half against what we now know was one of the worst secondaries in the league.
vs. KC two weeks later: couldn't score a point in the 2nd half. The weather was fine, btw.
vs. a bad TEN team a few weeks later: managed just a pair of FGs and a TD off a TEN fumble inside their own 15 yard line to STILL lose by 1.
0 2nd half points vs. BUF Week 18, when the BUF defense was decimated by injuries.
Then the WC game vs. KC: 51% passing, 5.1yds/att, 1 TD/1 INT, 15.9 QBR, 63.9 PR. I mean, I guess one could argue it was cold, but I mean he's supposed to be an "elite NFL QB"? Tua is propped up by his weapons and possibly his HC/OC. Without Hill/Waddle/Achane/Mostert etc., Tua is a sub-average NFL QB, regardless of what a couple stat lines might say, the results and the tape say something quite different.
I never called Tua an "elite" QB, I said he was better than Mayfield. And again, you trying to cherry-pick examples to support your claims that Tua can't comeback from behind like Baker. But the facts don't support that, when he literally has 2 fewer comeback wins/drive in his career in two fewer seasons than Baker Mayfield. Tua has comeback down 21 in the 4th QTR against the Ravens last season, but he can't comeback from behind according to you. Because of those 3 recent examples you listed, and ignore the 8 other game winning comeback drive he has in his career. LMAO
His supporting cast is probably top 10 in the NFL.
I assume you are speaking of last year, but is this really true? I am asking, not making a point.
I wonder because we basically could not run the ball until the last 1/3rd of the season and that is because of a substandard line and certainly substandard TE play and a running back who had to be coached to hit the hole. Evans and Godwin are amazing, but again in the first half of the year Godwin is basically outside and so not providing his usual. Our third receiver was mostly a committee of rookies and "one note" guys, with the lead guy Palmer dropping balls, running bad routes and fumbling.
Maybe - and I am definitely willing to concede this - that is just MY PERCEPTION and the statistical reality is different BUT IF SO isn't Mayfield ONME big part of the CAST. In other words, one big reason we would be "top ten," if we were? I say that because the argument against Mayfield by most here sport of amounts to "he was good but should've been great" (even though he had a carer year) or "hes not elite." Well, doesn't that imply he was at least pretty good?
im
lol not even close. Our WRs are top 10 although non biased fans around the league could argue that point.RB and TE are mediocre at best.id put Bucs weapons in the 15 to 20 range, which wouldn’t you believe it that’s where bakers at too, and guess what our regular season record too!Not even close is funny. How many other NFL teams have a franchise LT, top 5 WR, top 10 #2 WR, and an excellent pass-catching RB on their team? Calling White mediocre at best is insanity when he was second in the NFC in yards from scrimmage trailing McCaffery.
Niners - Trent Williams, CMC, Ayiuk, Deebo, Kettle
Dolphins - Armstead, Hill, Waddle, Mosert/Achane
Eagles - Mailata, Brown, Smith, Swift
Chargers- Slater, Allen, Williams, Ekeler
Lions - Decker, St. Brown, Williams, Gibbs
Bengals - Brown JR, Chase, Higgins, Mixon
Out of that list I'm taking the Niners and Lions over the Buccaneers. Even if you do think they are those are 6 teams that would classify as better, so I'd love to find out according to you had a better cast than Mayfield this year......
I said supporting cast - which means the OL, not just "weapons". The Bucs pass blocking this year was pretty good because of our excellent bookend tackles that were top 10 in their respective positions.
Are any of you experiencing any graphical issues? I'm seeing formatting problems on my screen. Is anyone else experiencing this?
His supporting cast is probably top 10 in the NFL.
I assume you are speaking of last year, but is this really true? I am asking, not making a point.
I wonder because we basically could not run the ball until the last 1/3rd of the season and that is because of a substandard line and certainly substandard TE play and a running back who had to be coached to hit the hole. Evans and Godwin are amazing, but again in the first half of the year Godwin is basically outside and so not providing his usual. Our third receiver was mostly a committee of rookies and "one note" guys, with the lead guy Palmer dropping balls, running bad routes and fumbling.
Maybe - and I am definitely willing to concede this - that is just MY PERCEPTION and the statistical reality is different BUT IF SO isn't Mayfield ONME big part of the CAST. In other words, one big reason we would be "top ten," if we were? I say that because the argument against Mayfield by most here sport of amounts to "he was good but should've been great" (even though he had a carer year) or "hes not elite." Well, doesn't that imply he was at least pretty good?
No secret about it the Bucs struggled on the ground. Some of it was player execution, some was on the play-calling at the LOS, and by Canales himself. Otton was a huge problem as to why we could not pop runs as often as we should of this year. The iOL play was average-below average this year and it held us back.
However, White was a huge weapon in the pass game, the only RB better in the NFC was Christian McCaffery. You pair that with a top 10 WR core in the NFL, and you basically can attack teams from every level of the defense. Evans deep, Godwin intermediate, and White underneath. I think Palmer had a chance this year to have a better year but Mayfield missed him a lot this year. Had Mayfield been more accurate his numbers would be a lot better. Not only that there was times Mayfield didn't even throw his way when he was open. But, that's neither here or there, I think the Bucs have plenty talent on the offensive side for any qb to excel.
So the bar is set for you, the Bucs are super bowl contenders next season. Its super bowl or bust.well, the defense was world class - just trying to put a little emphasis on the fact that that defense didn’t win a Super Bowl until the offense was capable. This defense is no where near that one. However, the sum is better than its parts.We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…
Lol. Love it.
This poster is bringing the entertainment.
One won’t win without the other.
Mayfield is the missing link…or so says Todd Bowles and Jason Licht.
So the bar is set for you, the Bucs are super bowl contenders next season. Its super bowl or bust.well, the defense was world class - just trying to put a little emphasis on the fact that that defense didn’t win a Super Bowl until the offense was capable. This defense is no where near that one. However, the sum is better than its parts.We won a Super Bowl with an old statue quarterback that was as tough as nails and won many games by sheer force of will - because he had a good cast of weapons around him and a good OC who knew how to use all of them…
Lol. Love it.
This poster is bringing the entertainment.
One won’t win without the other.
Mayfield is the missing link…or so says Todd Bowles and Jason Licht.
Temper that a Bit. The Bar for EVERY team is SUPERBOWL or Bust. But if every team that loses the SB curls into the fetal position afterward, that would be miserable. There's beauty in the struggle/JoUrney. So the "bust" part is...uhm...Gratuitous (jajaja), its SUPERBOWL or DIE TRYIN, that would suffice.
Bucs as superbowl contenders lmao
Vegas had them at 6.5 wins last year and we exceeded expectations with our playoff success
this team is middle of the pack and I would suggest not many will pick us to win the division again next year
everyone will be on the saints and maybe the falcons depending on who they get at QB
lets see what the offseason brings but we don’t have the talent to be superbowl worthy.
The Bar for EVERY team is SUPERBOWL or Bust.
Actually, it’s higher most regular season winning percentage
;-)
yeah, the stats for Lamar are a bit skewed. But whatever. No need to drop a few dozen stats here.
Nah, stats are needed because people like you like to make claims with no evidence to even support it. So here we are. You aren't going to be able to back pedal out of this one buddy. Stats like big time throws under pressure can't possibly be "skewed".
Here's the thing that matters: KC has played BAL something like 5 times since Lamar became the starting QB, and Spags gameplan has been fundamentally the same since the first game, which is simply stuff their run game and force Lamar to be a pocket passer. Specifically clog the middle of the field between the numbers out to about 12 yards deep. Make Lamar throw over the middle, where he wants to go, and outside.
And pretty much every single time Lamar proves that he can't do it. He isn't very good at pre-snap adjustments/reads, he isn't very good at going through his progressions, is very inconsistent about knowing where his hots are, and often doesn't know where his outlet is. And he lacks the armstrength to throw very deep outside, coupled with the lack of arm talent, or touch, to consistently make throws along the boundaries beyond 25 yards. Those are just the facts.
Over on CP we've got a dozen threads about Lamar, in the regular season and playoffs, dating back to 2018, the resident gurus have broken down the games and Lamar's performances, we've argued about all the professional breakdowns from Kurt Warner, Baldinger, Orlovsky, JT Sullivan, and so on, and it always comes down to the same things: Lamar is fine as long as he can run or hand the ball off. Once you take that away, he's very average as a passer.
And this most recent AFCCG just proves Spags' rule. Lamar went 54% completion%, only completed 20 passes, 272 yards (net 255yds), 1 TD/1 INT, 4 sacks, QBR 42.9 (well below average), PR 75.5 (below average). And we could go back and look at each game he's played vs. KC and the results are remarkably similar game-to-game, in yards, completion%, QBR/PR, sacks, etc.
And in three of those matchups we were trotting out the likes of Hitchens, Sorenson, Ben Nieman, Chavarius Ward and B. Breeland. And we blitzed even more in those early games, because our safeties and CBs weren't going to hold up very long, and it still worked like a charm.
But I get it. You believe Lamar is elite. That's fine. I know he's not, at least he's not without his legs. But I'm not really here to get into an argument about Lamar.
Yeah, Lamar is elite, just because Spags who's arguably the best DC in the entire NFL knows how to gameplan isn't a slight to Lamar. Your trying pinpoint one team out of 31 others that know how to defend Lamar. And it's not like Lamar has any good boundary WR's in his career to help him win those boundary throws. In the most recent game Lamar had a WR who fumbled that ball on the goal-line to try to score a TD that completely changed the game. They had to play catch-up after he was let down by mistakes from teammates. And I'm pretty sure a couple of those WR's dropped some passes that day too. So your not proving anything here. The best DC in the NFL knows how to defend Lamar well, so that means he isn't an elite QB is not really convincing. That's like saying Peyton Manning wasn't an elite QB because Bill Belicheck knew how to defend and gameplan against the Colts. Just a dumb argument to make.
And Tua, lol, is really really average, maybe below average. Look at his performances just this season when he was behind/tied at HT. just a small taste: vs. PHI around Week 9: couldn't score an offensive point in the 2nd half against what we now know was one of the worst secondaries in the league.
vs. KC two weeks later: couldn't score a point in the 2nd half. The weather was fine, btw.
vs. a bad TEN team a few weeks later: managed just a pair of FGs and a TD off a TEN fumble inside their own 15 yard line to STILL lose by 1.
0 2nd half points vs. BUF Week 18, when the BUF defense was decimated by injuries.
Then the WC game vs. KC: 51% passing, 5.1yds/att, 1 TD/1 INT, 15.9 QBR, 63.9 PR. I mean, I guess one could argue it was cold, but I mean he's supposed to be an "elite NFL QB"? Tua is propped up by his weapons and possibly his HC/OC. Without Hill/Waddle/Achane/Mostert etc., Tua is a sub-average NFL QB, regardless of what a couple stat lines might say, the results and the tape say something quite different.
I never called Tua an "elite" QB, I said he was better than Mayfield. And again, you trying to cherry-pick examples to support your claims that Tua can't comeback from behind like Baker. But the facts don't support that, when he literally has 2 fewer comeback wins/drive in his career in two fewer seasons than Baker Mayfield. Tua has comeback down 21 in the 4th QTR against the Ravens last season, but he can't comeback from behind according to you. Because of those 3 recent examples you listed, and ignore the 8 other game winning comeback drive he has in his career. LMAO
Lol, you know the funny thing about this whole conversation is that two or three years ago I was you; defending Lamar’s performances with stats. I reall believed he could learn to be a NFL QB. But the reality is that he stopped growing a couple years ago. Even his own fanbase has come to realize what he is. And what he isn’t.
but like I said, I’m not really here to argue with you guys, especially not about Lamar. Just wait another season or two. You’ll see it too. Ditto Tua. Baker is better than both; another season maybe two and you’ll see it too.
think the Bucs have plenty talent on the offensive side for any qb to excel.
Except for Brady, I guess.
I would think most people look at last year and see a pretty big difference between the early offense and the late offense AND SIGNIFICANTLY the changes to the offense during the season by Canales. So, if you see that you’re probably more inclined to see last year as an evolving offense with Mayfield generally playing his best late and when it matter most.
We lost in the playoffs because of the defense more so than Mayfield and the offense. And yet there are no “we are doomed, blow it all up” threads based on the defense. Half the Red Board is on suicide watch over Mayfiekds contract lol
