Trading back then reaching on a player at a position you struggle to evaluate?
I dont know that Licht struggles to evaluate edge rushers? Maybe, but he found Barrett before he was really Barrett and gobbled up JPP when some would have said he was washed.
If anything I would blame recent shortcoming on Bowles and, as I mentioned before the circumstances of the Brady era.
I mean, an early first rounder is NOT the only way to do it but the Licht Bucs have never used a premium pick on a DE, at least that I can recall.
Trey Hendrickson was the sack king last season, He's probable the 10th DE taken and does nothing really for a few years. Not easy
Barrett has NFL tape so it's a different evaluation process. Great find by Licht no doubt.
JPP was a pro bowler and quite frankly wasn't the greatest trade up until we got Brady then it paid off.
But what I'm talking about moreso is the draft. Spence and Hall and Braswell in the 2nd... That's a lot of draft capital.
Braswell was a reach and just looking at him you immediately see Spence. Athletic tweener that can't plan the run and can only win on speed... And he's not that fast.
Hall is a tweener between DE and DT.
Yaya is a solid find in the this. Nelson a good find in the 4th.
But the proof is in the pudding. He's allocated a ton of draft capital but hasn't hit once.
But the proof is in the pudding. He's allocated a ton of draft capital but hasn't hit once.
Antoine Winfield is 0.5 sack away from being tied with the leader of Licht's Edge draft picks - Anthony Nelson. It's pretty laughable.
But the proof is in the pudding. He's allocated a ton of draft capital but hasn't hit once.
Antoine Winfield is 0.5 sack away from being tied with the leader of Licht's Edge draft picks - Anthony Nelson. It's pretty laughable.
a potential HOF safety who figures prominently in the blitz scheme ... compared to a 4th round back up end?
nice .... one
Trading back then reaching on a player at a position you struggle to evaluate?
I dont know that Licht struggles to evaluate edge rushers? Maybe, but he found Barrett before he was really Barrett and gobbled up JPP when some would have said he was washed.
If anything I would blame recent shortcoming on Bowles and, as I mentioned before the circumstances of the Brady era.
I mean, an early first rounder is NOT the only way to do it but the Licht Bucs have never used a premium pick on a DE, at least that I can recall.
Trey Hendrickson was the sack king last season, He's probable the 10th DE taken and does nothing really for a few years. Not easy
Barrett has NFL tape so it's a different evaluation process. Great find by Licht no doubt.
JPP was a pro bowler and quite frankly wasn't the greatest trade up until we got Brady then it paid off.
But what I'm talking about moreso is the draft. Spence and Hall and Braswell in the 2nd... That's a lot of draft capital.
Braswell was a reach and just looking at him you immediately see Spence. Athletic tweener that can't plan the run and can only win on speed... And he's not that fast.
Hall is a tweener between DE and DT.
Yaya is a solid find in the this. Nelson a good find in the 4th.
But the proof is in the pudding. He's allocated a ton of draft capital but hasn't hit once.
I think another poster might have alluded to this but I would think a lot of those tweeter types are as much on Bowles as Licht. Bowles is the guy who likes flexibility and cross training jokers etc.
That goes to a point in an earlier discussion. If we are all being fair, Bowles gets a pretty reasonable pass last season because he had an understaffed secondary that then got injured, leading to Licht praising him for accomplishing what he did with what he had to work with.
Bowles doesn't really have that this season (barring crazy injuries) because the secondary is revamped and actually looks promising (Seattle aside, perhaps) and the ILBs are 1000% Bowles, from the decision to run with LVD one more to Dennis as the other ILB.
maybe the cap influenced that some I don't know but for the most part it seems Bowles has his players in the field.
But the proof is in the pudding. He's allocated a ton of draft capital but hasn't hit once.
Antoine Winfield is 0.5 sack away from being tied with the leader of Licht's Edge draft picks - Anthony Nelson. It's pretty laughable.
Damn.
I knew it wasn’t good, but didn’t realize it was that bad.
The Licht stuff about DEs would make more sense if the criticism was a failure to allocate resources to the position UNTIL RECENTLY. as opposed to not evaluating the position correctly.
I say that because if you just go through it year by year:
Licht is hired BY LOVIE OR POST LOVIE in 2014 and so the 2014 and 2015 season he basically works for Lovie Smith.
He trades for JPP in 2018 and Barrett in 2019 and they are really with the team through 2021/2022. So, during that window he is at BEST drafting some developmental DE, especially if you consider we won a Super Bowl
so, just go through them
in 2016 we draft Spence in the 2nd and he is a clear MISS (trade for JPP and then acquire Barrett), but also a 2nd rounder.
2017 - no DE drafted
2018 to 2021 we have Barrettt and JPP so no DE drafted with a premium pick? Nelson in the 4th, but we have JPP and Barrett so the "draft capital" is used to successfully build the rest of the Super Bowl team, Vea, White, Wirfs both CBs and Nickel . . . who faults Licht for those picks?
2021 and 2022 are both "run it back years" so we draft JTS with last pick of the 1st. a definite MISS, but also the classic Bowles joker, right?
Hall is drafted to play INSIDE (no Suh) and be versatile across the line, not to replace JPP or Barrett. This is Bowles
"He is learning how to play with his pads lower, taking on double teams and understanding when to drop his knee and not just bounce it up rushing the passer. He is a very good athlete. We haven't had that kind of athlete inside in a while since we've been here, so we just look for him getting better and better scheme-wise and then taking advantage of his athleticism."
But the proof is in the pudding. He's allocated a ton of draft capital but hasn't hit once.
Antoine Winfield is 0.5 sack away from being tied with the leader of Licht's Edge draft picks - Anthony Nelson. It's pretty laughable.
Damn.
I knew it wasn’t good, but didn’t realize it was that bad.
It is bad. But do we really know that Licht struggles to evaluate Edge rushers? I mean, we only have twelve years worth of data to evaluate. We simply need more time to know the answer to this vexing question.
I don’t think we’ve ever developed an edge, any more than we’ve ever developed a starting QB.
To a certain extent Baker has developed, but he pretty much came pre-loaded with experience (most of it a struggle). I guess one could argue that Canales helped, as did his exposure to Coen. There’s no denying he has developed in his time in Tampa, just believe he more of a scheme fit for McVay apostles.
While I’d love to give Bowles the benefit of the doubt on this, the last time we had an elite edge rush type, it was JPP and Shaq. Nothing since them. Contract picks, not FA’s - but there is no question that until this past offseason-season the limited resources were spent on the offense in both if those areas.
we only have twelve years worth of data to evaluate.
So a dose of logic you'll never answer
if we have "twelve years of data" and it says that "Licht can't evaluate ends" that would me mean if the Bucs tanked the season to get a top 5 pick specifically to get a DE the guy who drafted Witfs, Evans, Godwin, Egbuka, White ("Rb1 "), Irving ("RB2"), AWJ, Goedeke, Barton .... that guy could draft a DE ... because of the position? Same guy who evaluated a signed or traded for Barrett and JPP?
:-)
Btw, you also said PFF data was "objective" right? And the ever funny "there's no correlation between running and passing in the NFL," which is usually followed by complaints that we should play action pass more 😀
Barrett has NFL tape so it's a different evaluation process.
that tape said he was roughly Yaya Diaby
Diaby had 12 sacks in his first two years. Barrett had 7, so double those to 14 to give him full time stats (its more like 12, but give him the benefit of doubt)
Barrett has NFL tape so it's a different evaluation process.
that tape said he was roughly Yaya Diaby
Diaby had 12 sacks in his first two years. Barrett had 7, so double those to 14 to give him full time stats (its more like 12, but give him the benefit of doubt)
Barrett played limited snaps behind Von Miller
Barrett has NFL tape so it's a different evaluation process.
that tape said he was roughly Yaya Diaby
Diaby had 12 sacks in his first two years. Barrett had 7, so double those to 14 to give him full time stats (its more like 12, but give him the benefit of doubt)
Barrett played limited snaps behind Von Miller
Von Miller and the other guy, thats why I doubled his production, but the point is he didnt take Barrett as a star he took him as a back up that had limited sacks
Anyway, I think if you look at Licht's tenure you see a failure to put meaningful resources to drafting an end. and obviously he and his team can draft, just look at our roster or the SB roster.
Just another hilarious way to see the "Licht cant Draft a DE" discussion . .
There is "twelve years of data" that says Licht is a SUPER BOWL WINNING GM who has a team on a 5 division title streak and 4-1 this season and the CENTRAL FEATURE of the tEam -- the thing that makes the BUCS stand out from every other NFL team . ..
HOMEGROWN TALENT
"The Bucs currently lead the NFL in homegrown players on the roster. 82.5% of their roster started with the Bucs. Ravens, Bills, Bengals and Colts are the other teams over 70%"
THE BUCS ARE #1
"When people talk about homegrown talent, they’re really pointing to the work general manager Jason Licht has done since taking over in 2014. Licht has hit on cornerstone draft picks like Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Vita Vea, Tristan Wirfs, Antoine Winfield Jr., and Devin White.
Those guys didn’t just fill roster spots, they became the backbone of a Super Bowl-winning team and the face of the franchise.
That kind of consistency is rare in the NFL. Every year, draft picks across the league flame out, but Tampa Bay has managed to draft well and, just as importantly, develop those players once they get to the building. Licht’s track record proves the front office doesn’t just chase flashy names."
SO . . . THE BUCS ARE 4-1 ON THEIR WAY (hopefully) TO AN OTHER DIVISION TITLE and potential playoff appearance. . and the Red Board is on about their SUPER BOWL WINNING and SUPER DRAFTING GM's . . . incompetence.
That is what happens when you put "twelve years if data" in the . . . um . . .
LOL
new screen names all around?
FIRELICHTBUTNOTFORSAFETYCBILBNTWRTEQBOTGCENTERjustforEdge
or maybe for brevity #EBIGGSTD?
Barrett has NFL tape so it's a different evaluation process.
that tape said he was roughly Yaya Diaby
Diaby had 12 sacks in his first two years. Barrett had 7, so double those to 14 to give him full time stats (its more like 12, but give him the benefit of doubt)
Barrett played limited snaps behind Von Miller
Von Miller and the other guy, thats why I doubled his production, but the point is he didnt take Barrett as a star he took him as a back up that had limited sacks
Anyway, I think if you look at Licht's tenure you see a failure to put meaningful resources to drafting an end. and obviously he and his team can draft, just look at our roster or the SB roster.
He took Devin White over Josh Allen then he proceeded to ignore LB for years and throw draft capital at 2nd round projects for the edge.
It's a losing strategy. You get elite edge early and you get LB/RB/S mid round (or even CB which he has done well)
