He took Devin White over Josh Allen
Do you think Devin White (who helped us win a Super Bowl) was Licht or Arians/Bowles?
It's a losing strategy.
all evidence to the contrary?
Like i said, its sort of the nature of the Red Board. Licth the SB winning GM has "a losing strategy" that has seen us win the division multiple times and now 4-1, in large part because of guys he drafted (#1 homegrown team in NFL).
Not suggesting he is beyond criticism, just that its funny whne its framed as "12 years of data" lmao
It's a losing strategy.
all evidence to the contrary?
Like i said, its sort of the nature of the Red Board. Licth the SB winning GM has "a losing strategy" that has seen us win the division multiple times and now 4-1, in large part because of guys he drafted (#1 homegrown team in NFL).
Not suggesting he is beyond criticism, just that its funny whne its framed as "12 years of data" lmao
So by that logic drafting Aguayo is a winning strategy. After all, we won the super bowl.
new screen names all around?
FIRELICHTBUTNOTFORSAFETYCBILBNTWRTEQBOTGCENTERjustforEdge
or maybe for brevity #EBIGGSTD?
Bucs winning games again doesn't mean he's assessing edge talent effectively.
Right now TODAY his lack of ability to evaluate and draft edge rushers is costing our defense.
You keep making these logical leaps.
new screen names all around?
FIRELICHTBUTNOTFORSAFETYCBILBNTWRTEQBOTGCENTERjustforEdge
or maybe for brevity #EBIGGSTD?
Bucs winning games again doesn't mean he's assessing edge talent effectively.
Right now TODAY his lack of ability to evaluate and draft edge rushers is costing our defense.
You keep making these logical leaps.
I am the one making logical leaps? Not sure that one makes sense.
I said its possible Licht cannot evaluate talent at ONE position, so long as we are limiting that talent gap to college players, apparently (lol) . . .its possible.
Its also possible (and maybe much more likely), that they've missed on some players LIKE ALL TEAMS DO and haven't ever dedicated any substantial resources to the position, in part because they HAVE BEEN TOO SUCCESFUL UNDER LICHT TO get many top 5 picks and in part because UNDER LICHT they allocated the resources they did have to other positions that have . . won a super bowl, multiple division championships etc.
Saying that something is true because it is ONE possible explantation is, maybe, a logical leap? #EBIGGSTD
I also agree GENERALLY with your NEW point ("Right now TODAY his lack of ability to evaluate and draft edge rushers is costing our defense"), although right now we are 4-1 and just to test your theory a bit. .. Shaq Barrett had 19.5 sack in 2019 . . the team went 7-9
I would maybe add a new potential cause . . . Bowles. Although that would force Biggs to modify his "12 years" lmao.
It's a losing strategy.
all evidence to the contrary?
Like i said, its sort of the nature of the Red Board. Licth the SB winning GM has "a losing strategy" that has seen us win the division multiple times and now 4-1, in large part because of guys he drafted (#1 homegrown team in NFL).
Not suggesting he is beyond criticism, just that its funny whne its framed as "12 years of data" lmao
So by that logic drafting Aguayo is a winning strategy. After all, we won the super bowl.
I assume you know this, but you're undercutting yourself there.
The winning strategy is precisely what Licht has done. That is the evidence. You and Biggs are arguing that Licht is INCOMPETENT when it comes to drafting DEs. Maybe, but it would be the weirdest incompetence ever because . . . weve won so much under him BASED ON HIS DRAFTING (#1 team in NFL for homegrown players, 4-1 etc.)
It's a losing strategy.
all evidence to the contrary?
Like i said, its sort of the nature of the Red Board. Licth the SB winning GM has "a losing strategy" that has seen us win the division multiple times and now 4-1, in large part because of guys he drafted (#1 homegrown team in NFL).
Not suggesting he is beyond criticism, just that its funny whne its framed as "12 years of data" lmao
So by that logic drafting Aguayo is a winning strategy. After all, we won the super bowl.
I assume you know this, but you're undercutting yourself there.
The winning strategy is precisely what Licht has done. That is the evidence. You and Biggs are arguing that Licht is INCOMPETENT when it comes to drafting DEs. Maybe, but it would be the weirdest incompetence ever because . . . weve won so much under him BASED ON HIS DRAFTING (#1 team in NFL for homegrown players, 4-1 etc.)
This logic is asinine. We won a super bowl with free agent DEs and because of a guy named Tom Brady.
Winning a super bowl or winning a division has NOTHING TO DO with Licht's ability to draft DEs. We won IN SPITE of this flaw AND because of his other strengths in the draft and FA.
I'm not sure why you're being so obtuse and condescending about it...
Licht has endless whiffs on the defensive line. Throw Kancey in there too.
His wins are rotational guys like Nelson and Hall and Diaby.
He's been good at drafting... Especially recently. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a clear flaw.
This logic is asinine.
He's been good at drafting... Especially recently. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a clear flaw.
Basic logic
You/Biggs - Licht INCOMPETENCE at evaluating edge rusher is CAUSE of the EFFECT (no game wrecking edge) (it cant be losing because we are winning)
Me - Possibly, but maybe more likely is just the circumstances.
You have modified that to LICHT passing on game wrecking edge is a "losing strategy". . . . when. we are winning.
Your example White for Allen. That argument is a loser so far because, for example, Josh Allen had 17 sacks in 2023, his team was 8-9 missed the playoffs. Barrett had similar sack totals in 2019, we sucked . . so the point is the premise itself might be flawed (ie you say Licht's formula is LOSING formula when it is demonstrably NOT . . at least not yet)
I have pointed to the overall success in DRAFTING because it is pretty unlikely that the WINNING "#1 homegrown team" has a bad drafting GM. One of your counter is
We won a super bowl with free agent DEs and because of a guy named Tom Brady.
So not only is that highlighting that Licht can properly evaluate one type of edge (a FA), its UNFAIRLY diminishing the role that DRAFTED player had in the Super Bowl win.
One of the biggest performers on that SUPER BOWL RUN was DRAFTED White. You might hate that and White was a BUST overall, but your example - you said Licht should have taken Allen ---is an argument that the team would be better off OVER TIME with that CHOICE between two different positions. I think you said it was a LOSING formula. Maybe, but we are still winning. That is MY point.
Licht has never allocated a premium pick to the position, hes made other CHOICES that have led to all the the success. The Super Bowl line up isnt just "free agent DEs and . . Brady" its drafted players (Brate, Cappa, LBVD, Carlton Davis, Jamel Dean, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, Marpet, Wirfs etc.).
And if you just pick ONE of those players as an example, it highlights the flaw in your incompetence argument and points FAVORABLY toward my choice/circumstance argument
Danielle Hunter is drafted AFTER Ali Marpet and goes on to be an All pro DE, five time pro bowler. Licht is incompetent at evaluating DEs because he successfully CHOSE Marpet instead of Hunter? We certainly needed a DE, much more so than the four or five years of Licht's tenure when we have Barrett and JPP.
I mention Marpet INTENTIONALLY because he is a SECOND ROUND draft pick. Maybe this is too obvious a point BUT . . if you draft a player with a premium #1 pick, that player is probably 60-70% likely to be a key starter on your team BECAUSE OF THE TALENT DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THAT PLAYER AND THE NEXT. Your example is Josh Allen. If you went to the 2nd round DE it would be journeyman Ben Bangou. But you dont even have to go that far, Rashan Gary is only a few pick later and he has never had double digit sacks. Good player, but not game wrecker.
if you go to the 2nd round the selected player is only about 35% likely to be a starter and being a key player is even more remote. So, if a GM (and his head coaches) truly valued DRAFTING a game wrecking edge rusher they would dedicated a premium first round pick to it, maybe even trade UP. Licht has never done that, hes only taken guys where he's traded back or stood where we were with at most an late 1st round pick. That has to be more of a CHOICE than evaluation, right? I mean this year Egbuka makes that point, right? the Bucs should taken James Pearce Jr?
Or, they should have NOT taken Wirfs and traded up for Chase Young? or who was the edge they should've taken instead? That is at least your "losing strategy" white versus Allen argument.
But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a clear flaw.
Fire, here is a different person assigning what you see as a Licht flaw to SOMETHING ELSE. The context is coverage of DIABY and how he gets tons of pressure but few sacks:
"So if YaYa is one of the quickest edge rushers to cross the line of scrimmage, then what the hell is happening after he gets past the line?
Is YaYa simply unable to shed a block? Has anyone taught him how to shed a block (if that is the issue)?
If the Bucs really cared about an edge rush, not just lip service but actually cared as in demanding results — or else — maybe they’d have a coach who could help Diaby learn how to shed blocks or find ways to get to the quarterback, since he seems to be able to put himself in position to put a quarterback on his arse.
(For those who think the previous paragraph is too harsh, then please point Joe to the coach who has developed a double-digit edge rusher for the Bucs. Not inherited an edge rusher, but developed one.)
If the Bucs really were serious about an edge rush, they’d have a constant revolving door of dudes brought in as part of a non-stop effort to find someone, anyone who could drop a quarterback.
Shoot, earlier this year after the Bucs had their second punt of the season blocked, two days later they worked out two punters. That didn’t take very long, did it?
When is the last time you heard of the Bucs working out an edge rusher?
Yeah, yeah, Todd Bowles asks his outside linebackers to do other things. And that’s a problem."
POINT: Its not condescending to point out that there are other ways to explain the EFFECT than the singular cause you claim.
I am not saying that analysis above is right, just that there are other things besides a "flaw" that might explain the effect.
In the 2023 draft we took Kancey and then Mauch BEFORE getting an edge rusher, Diaby. We could have gotten:
Myles Murphy
Nolan Smith (who sat behind Reddick)
Felix AU (he average 3 sacks per season, I think)
Derick Hall
Isaih Foskey (waived by drafting team)
Bj Ojulari
Keion White (1 sack)
etc etc
NEEDLESS TO SAY some of those guys woulod have been crazy reaches wiht the picks we had in 1 and 2 and we would've had to skip getting Kancey or Mauch. Kancey hasnt worked out so well yet BUT, honestly, would you have advocated for drafting any of those guys in Kancey's spot? Drop back maybe?
POINT: Diaby is a fairly typical 3rd round OLB, so far, maybe even a bit better? Maybe the Bucs dont share the same view of edge rushers and/or maybe Bowles defense . . .
This logic is asinine.
Have fun in that black hole.
By "black hole" do you mean THIS KIND of black hole?
We’ll see who starts and gets more carries on Sunday. And the week after that. And the week after that. And the week after that. And the week after that.
Because I can GUARANTEE you I will not LIE once . . let alone for 14 weeks.
I will leave that to you. You might say its your "wheelhouse."
Oh wait . .. you STILL don't own that right?
Oh wait . .. you STILL don't own that right?
sorry Biggs wasnt I supposed to post tahat as
"oh wait LADY . . you still dont own that, right?
or maybe call you a "beta" for being SCARED to own your lie?
There was this beta
But doesnt you running from that lie mean you BITCHED OUT
Now, if you’re going to bitch out
Licht has never allocated a premium pick to the position, hes made other CHOICES that have led to all the the success.
Isn't that more or less (part of) the point?
Just because we won a super bowl with Devin White, doesn't mean Devin White was the right pick and doesn't mean we wouldn't have a won a super bowl with Allen.
I understand the context you're referring to but there's 12 years of Licht not finding an edge rusher... How he deploys draft capital is part of the criticism. When you half ass it with 2nd round picks (JTS, Braswell, Hall) then you won't find elite talent. Those picks are better used for different positions (like LB).
A top 5 pick is better positioned for elite edge rushers not LB.
It's all about draft strategy... And Licht has figured out many of the pieces, and how to find great talent at select positions, but he has not figured it out with edge players.
Braswell and Spence are clones of one another. Spence I can forgive but Braswell I cannot. JTS I cannot. Hall I cannot.
That doesn't mean Licht is bad at drafting but specific to this he hasn't found it and that's one him... And if it's a development issue that's also on him. He's essentially the CEO of this business.
Isn't that more or less (part of) the point?
well that was at least my point.
Your point with Biggs was that Licht cannot evaluate the position (draft picks only). That is precisely why I said THAT COULD BE TRUE but another possible explanation is not putting real resources there. I laid out a couple examples.
If we go to this
12 years of Licht not finding an edge rusher... How he deploys draft capital is part of the criticism.
I would say that is a MORE valid criticism THAT COULD ALSO BE TRUE, especially with a good example you made in White versus Allen, BUT that the counterargument is obviously a Super Bowl, multiple division champs etc.
Of those, options - incompetence and resources - I went back and looked and provided a couple examples, one of them being that drafting of Kancey. Mauch and then Diaby. That example doesn't mean I am correct, it just means that it seems MORE consistent with the "how he deploys draft capital" point you are making, a point I see as much more likely than incompetence . . . when one actually looks at the "12 years of data," as opposed to doing what Biggs did (and always does) which is thoughtlessly TROLL the phrase.
