This conversation is all over the place but there's one key point in going to reiterate.
I do agree that Bowles had a talent gap. I agree that this talent gap forces him to call the game a certain way... Maybe a way he wouldn't otherwise.
All of that can be true AND:
1.) I don't think he's getting the most out of our talent even if it is limited (by asking players to play out of position, by not playing bump and run, by leaving players in to expose them to injury, etc).
2.) he needs to understand that if this talent gap exists, he needs to roll the dice more on offense to extend drives and score more points and not rely on a defense that gave up a winning drive 5 times this season (more if you count game tying AND winning drives).
Let's count how many times Bowles went conservative only to let the defense run out there and give up the points to lose:
Falcons 2x
Chiefs
49ers
Commanders
And you can add the Panthers to that list if not for a miracle punch out fumble.
That’s a great post Fire and I agree with much of it
My problem was Bowles the DC last year mainly becaue we know his clock management and use of TOs need some serious work as a HC. Anways Bowles has boundary CBs that run 4.3 and he has them sitting in zone not running with WRs and asking them to react to the ball 10 yards of the LOS. That could work if the Bucs had an elite pass rush and elite pass defending LBs defending the middle but that is not the case. Worse he is asking his edge rusher to drop into zone too much when he admits the Bucs need more 4 man pass rush and that isn't happening when you are dropping an edge in space often and what you are left with is 3 man rush. Diaby, Kancey and Vea are good but not that good as pass rushers. Bowles wants to play the run which is fine to force third and longs. But when you put a team in a third in long why give them a get out of jail free card by playing soft quarters coverage with tall, 4.3 CBs that can play bump and run and be glued to the hips of a WR near the LoS. And I can't blame it all on Bowles because the players should know to line up before the sticks. Where is Ross; coaching in all of this?
Also the lack of coverage sacks is because the Bucs boundary CBs were not bumping WRs at the LoS all last year for the most part. A second or two is what Diaby and Kancey needed to reach double digit sacks.
Talent level is only so much because we know where the Bucs offense is deficient of talent and yet the TEs as a group showed more than what we thought they had as a group in terms of talent because of proper coaching from Peele.
When the least talented group on the team (eg Tight Ends) out play the more talented groups (eg Cornerbacks and Safeties) because of better coaching and discipline that is a problem.
you are dropping an edge in space often and what you are left with is 3 man rush.
Huh?
most times they are dropping an end another position is rushing and maybe another 2.
they are not typically rushing 3 unless they are playing prevent like 3rd and 20
Bowles was obviously concerned about his middle of the field play including his safeties so he was playing most of to try to keep the ball in front of the defense’s and then tackle.
tall, 4.3 CBs that can play bump and run and be glued to the hips of a WR near the LoS.
Cee Dee lamb. Watch it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_a-yp4RQxQ8
watch Dean and McCollim doing just what you’re saying and getting beat and ask yourself where are the safeties
tall, 4.3 CBs that can play bump and run and be glued to the hips of a WR near the LoS.
Cee Dee lamb. Watch it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_a-yp4RQxQ8
watch Dean and McCollim doing just what you’re saying and getting beat and ask yourself where are the safeties
in this game I think the safeties are Merriweather and Izien
Watch the first five passes to Lamb
Again bump and run is riskier but still better than death by thousand cuts we see with the Washington playoff game. Coaches that prefer to play dominantly quarters/off coverage tend to want to play it safe which is playing to lose if given enough time for opposing team.
Mike Smith was fired because of that and replaced by Bowles. Short memory? Lets not forget that history of Bucs era. Bowles came to Tampa playing to win with his CBs.
Right now he is playing to lose the way he is calling defense and it reflects on the nose dive of the defensive performance.
Bowles really needs Arians around to kick him into gear and wake him up from his slumber. Bowles isn't in Dungy territory but he is drifting there...
tall, 4.3 CBs that can play bump and run and be glued to the hips of a WR near the LoS.
Cee Dee lamb. Watch it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_a-yp4RQxQ8
watch Dean and McCollim doing just what you’re saying and getting beat and ask yourself where are the safeties
This will happen but imo it's better than getting an 8 minute drive for a TD
Dean got straight toasted ona post where he played inside leverage, not safety fault cause he immediately played outside leverage when he saw dean play inside.
Mccollum had good recovery to restack the wide receiver after getting beat off the initial release just too weak at the point of contact and got pushed off when he shoulda boxed more aggressively. 5 man rush looked like fire zone(c3) that turned into match.
We need better boundary corners and a passrush this draft
This will happen but imo it's better than getting an 8 minute drive for a TD
I dont think so because that 8 minute drive for a TD has so many times we can get a turnover or get off on 3rd down.
I get your point though, if its about the STYLE of defense you'd want to see. Thats the diffrence between being a fan though and being a coach. Style versus TRYING TO WIN
If you look above, Alldaway said the "Bucs shoud have run this." I posted proof that they DID and with terrible results because they had no safeties. And the response is the same as yours . . . STYLE:
bump and run is riskier but still better than death by thousand cuts we see with the Washington playoff game
BUT . .. . and hopefully this is OBVIOUS . . both of you are only able to say that because the "8 minute drive" or "thousand cuts" ended in a loss.
Bowles is trying to win games with what he had. And given what he had he almost pulled it off. Again, LOOK at the stat comparison for the Commanders QB moving the ball against the Lions compared to us. For us, a couple of those "eight minute" drives and "thousand cuts" ended in a goal line stand.
If the offense doesnt fumble we probably win.
In the Commanders game we are shutting down Terry McLaurin with MAN COVER and we are mostly stopping their run and containing their WORLD CLASS QB . . . . dean goes down, Hayes comes in .. . . TOUCHDOWN
Mccollum had good recovery to restack the wide receiver after getting beat off the initial release just too weak at the point of contact and got pushed off when he shoulda boxed more aggressively.
rewatching it how about the blatant push off by Lamb, totally missed by the refs
Dean got straight toasted ona post where he played inside leverage,
Maybe they keep Dean but one thing about hum BEYOND THE FACTS THAT HES ALWAYS INJURED is that he has a lot of film where he seems to play lazy or disinterested. The playyou're referencing is that kind of play. Terrible
Bowles came to Tampa playing to win with his CBs.
Right now he is playing to lose the way he is calling defense and it reflects on the nose dive of the defensive performance.
THIS ^^^ is the really confusing part about the way some see all of this. You have the CART in front of the HORSE. You're describing EFFECT as CAUSE.
You're describing Bowles in two different time frames LIKE the talent is the same and the difference is Bowles made a choice to move around his talent, not that the team has changed in terms of talent. . . when it obviously has changed in terms of talent.
"Bowles came to Tampa playing to win with his CBs" is the way Bowles always plays it through his career GIVEN THE CHOICE. Just look at his "guys" like Cromartie etc. Its who Bowles is, what he is known for . . this is why I laugh my ass off when someone like Bigggs describes Bowles like he is Tony Dungy. Ask freaking Tony Dungy what he thought about the all out blitz lmao.
The difference is "Bowles win with his CBs" occurs with PRE-GETTING PAID Davis and Dean and AWJ and SMB . . and a front four that is JPP and Barrett and a DOMINANT rush that includes a fast as hell MLB . . and a TOTALLY DOMINANT LVD basically cleaning up EVERYTHING. . . and I mean, EVERYTHING . . behind it. RECORD SETTING LB play -- best in the league in many cases --taking the other teams short passing game away.
None of that exists now.
Last season Dean is injured and plays inconsistent. There is no Davis. AWJ is always injured and playing terribly. There is no JPP or Barrett and LITERALLY no linebackers
This is why everyone (but you lol) sees a defensive overhaul coming
Its NOT a choice lol. Its reacting to the talent available
Look, IF YOU WANT TO COMPARE THE TWO TIME FRAMES . . .this is from ""Bowles came to Tampa playing to win with his CBs" . . .
"Just as they did in 2015, when for the first time in franchise history the Tampa Bay Buccaneers used every single one of their draft picks on offensive players, team architects clearly went into the 2019 NFL Draft intending to give the defense a deep and broad talent infusion. As such, The Buccaneers opened this year's draft with five straight picks on that side of the ball, and eventually devoted six of eight choices to that cause"
2024 is more like 2018 than 2019 . . the year BEFORE the rebuild. Evereyone but you and maybe you are right) talks about THIS offseason being like that 2019 offseason.
There is a reason everyone is talking that way.
This conversation is all over the place but there's one key point in going to reiterate.
I do agree that Bowles had a talent gap. I agree that this talent gap forces him to call the game a certain way... Maybe a way he wouldn't otherwise.
All of that can be true AND:
1.) I don't think he's getting the most out of our talent even if it is limited (by asking players to play out of position, by not playing bump and run, by leaving players in to expose them to injury, etc).
2.) he needs to understand that if this talent gap exists, he needs to roll the dice more on offense to extend drives and score more points and not rely on a defense that gave up a winning drive 5 times this season (more if you count game tying AND winning drives).
Let's count how many times Bowles went conservative only to let the defense run out there and give up the points to lose:
Falcons 2x
Chiefs
49ers
Commanders
And you can add the Panthers to that list if not for a miracle punch out fumble.
That’s a great post Fire and I agree with much of it
It was a terrible post. Let's look at the offense's role in some of these losses.
First Atlanta loss: Bucs are up 3 with 1st and 10 at Atlanta 32 with 3 minutes to go. Offense turns it over. Defense bails out the offense with David pick. Bucs up 3 with 1:44 left at Falcons 28. The Bucs offense ends up with 4th and 24!
49ers- Bucs have 1st and goal at the 49ers 8, down 3 with 59 seconds left. Two Rachaad White runs for a total of ZERO yards. Incomplete on 3rd down so 49ers keep their last timeout.
Commanders- Bucs up 3, 1st and 10 with 12:03 left. Turnover. Bucs down 3, 6:18 left, 2nd and 1 at Washington 12. A stupid Baker wide keep and botched operation.
So let's count how many times I'm right and you all are wrong.
1. Offense melted down in critical situations in some of these losses. I didn't even do the Cowboys game. They also melted down in some of the wins but the defense bailed them out (Carolina, Las Vegas).
2. You can't just blame the defense for everything.
3. Sean Tucker needs more carries.
