The problem is how much stock you are putting in Humphrey. Yes, a lot of folks liked him. But he had flaws. He was the 3rd C chosen. We were paying Jensen huge money. It wasn’t a slam dunk pick, to trade up for a guy in the 2nd to pick a guy without a position.
When the BPA falls to you and it's a huge position of need, then I'd say that's luck.
Do you mean like BPA at a huge position of need like Laremy Tunsil, Ryan Ramczyk, Derwin James, Josh Allen, etc.?
Your argument sucks because your analysis is wrong. You can get as a salty as you want about it, but your argument has been obliterated.
We took Vita Vea over Derwin James.
Said it then and I'll say it again... always the better pick.
Tunsil I was screaming to draft too because the bong video was pointless.
Josh Allen is the QB gambit so great pick for Bills but a hard one to predict... and he went about where he was projected because he was a huge gamble.
This whole notion that other GMs miss when BPA and position of need diverge is ridiculous... there's great picks that nobody sees coming (Marpet) and there's no brainer picks that an armchair qb can make (Lawrence).
So again I ask... if Jags took Zach Wilson and Jets took Lawrence, would you call that both lucky and easy for the Jets? I think you would...
You 2 can jerk each other off all you like.
Aww...too many daiquiris last night?
Your 3 examples including Evans, Winfield, and Wirfs were debunked. Stop moving the goalposts and just eat it.
Also, you keep ranting about Humphries.
You (as well as others) live in this fantasy world where it doesn't take TWO teams to execute a trade. You just go along with the mindset that if Licht offers to move up/down, the other team has to simply go along with it.
And, speaking of which, you know for a fact that Licht didn't try to move up for Creed?
So again I ask... if Jags took Zach Wilson and Jets took Lawrence, would you call that both lucky and easy for the Jets? I think you would...
Sure. That's how the draft works. Teams are required to make picks based on what the others teams picking in front of them do. This isn't rocket surgery.
Last year, the Lions benefited off the Jags not taking the player that "fell in their laps" in Aiden Hutchinson. See how this works? The team and GM still has to make the "obvious" pick. It isn't always so obvious.
1. I think Bucs drafting the past decade is pretty average compared to the rest of the league. If you compare to BB and the Patriots then the Bucs are doing better than expected. But if you compare to the Ravens it seems the Bucs are not doing as good given how often they picked so high in the draft compared to the Ravens.
2. Free agency has been Licht's weakness and his best finds have been value shopping veteran players.
3. Licht's free agency blunders contributed to having rosters not being as good as they should be IMO regardless of the HC at the time.
4. Possibly but I also think that Koetter did a good job coaching up some pretty average rosters. Had the Bucs faired better with the big free agent signings during Koetter's run he would have had posted a better record as the Bucs HC IMO. Bowles has the opposite problem because while the 2022 squad was not as talented as the 2020 and 2021 squad he still had a stacked and playoff experienced roster and he squandered it.
5. Trying to give out big contracts to UFAs has been a big thorn for the team. I prefer to see the team shift their focus on making more draft selections and retaining talent on second contracts that are familiar with the Bucs organizational structure.
6. I think 2022 showed the team still has enough talent to compete but Bowles and the coaching staff all have to do better.
If Bowles has learned anything from Arians that is you have to coach up and use the talent you have on the roster even if it is not ideal. So what you don't have a game breaking RB on the roster or a traditional running game that Bowles wants? You can still ask the OC to be creative with White or find a way to design plays to push the ball into Lenny in the flat to act like a "running game".
Tom Brady is known to be able to dump the ball off to RB's to create a psuedo running game and gain chunks of yards for reasonable down and distances and to move the chains.
Failure to utilize existing talent and to hold the OC accountable was Bowles mistake. Fortunately Bowles has a chance to reshape the roster and coaching staff to his vision this off season.
I anticipate that the defense will become more aggressive and the offense will be more balanced which will help the defense earn more turnovers hopefully.
The best reply to this topic was also the purpose of the topic. Instead, arguing over whether GMs are good based on their intellect of “what fell to them” vs their decision to pick that player has occurred.
I think we may get more from discussing the six questions and the quoted six answer reply as a result of this topic.
Questions to consider:
- What is Licht’s best draft over 9 seasons? How do they compare to other GMs responsible for drafting? Is our standard of drafting this past decade considered above average?
- How does Licht’s Free Agent acquisitions and management of the roster compare to other GMs? Outside of the Arians (and really more so the Tom Brady era) the roster management and acquisitions compared to other teams over the past decade?
- 6 out of 9 seasons were losing season- does being in the bottom third of the NFL, bottom of the NFC South, and if not for the Tom Brady years constitute having faith in Licht?
- Licht’s 4 head coaches across 9 seasons and only 1 has had more wins than loses. Again, was Arians, a hall of fame coach, with an ability to build assemble a coaching staff and get players like Tom Brady why this team had success? 2020 and 2021 seem like outliers to Licht’s other 7 seasons.
- Talent Evaluation. Horrible contracts given to players with bad attitudes and don’t stay long. Building a winning culture by getting the players that want to be here and can be a team leader. It has not happened much outside of players like JPP and Brady.
- The Buccaneers playoff drought stretched to 13 years in 2019. One more would tie the era of futility seen from 1983 to 1996. In 2018 Fan apathy led to thousands of empty seats at Raymond James Stadium in spite of offers of free tickets for existing season ticket holders and most games had way too many visiting fans taking up residence. Not only that but TV games were blacked out. Attendances at Buccaneer home games continued to decline in 2019. Did 2020 and 2021 make us forget or forgive? Did 2022 show that were really still the 2014-2019 Buccaneers?
Wow are those questions or answers?Questions to consider:
- What is Licht’s best draft over 9 seasons? How do they compare to other GMs responsible for drafting? Is our standard of drafting this past decade considered above average?
- How does Licht’s Free Agent acquisitions and management of the roster compare to other GMs? Outside of the Arians (and really more so the Tom Brady era) the roster management and acquisitions compared to other teams over the past decade?
- 6 out of 9 seasons were losing season- does being in the bottom third of the NFL, bottom of the NFC South, and if not for the Tom Brady years constitute having faith in Licht?
- Licht’s 4 head coaches across 9 seasons and only 1 has had more wins than loses. Again, was Arians, a hall of fame coach, with an ability to build assemble a coaching staff and get players like Tom Brady why this team had success? 2020 and 2021 seem like outliers to Licht’s other 7 seasons.
- Talent Evaluation. Horrible contracts given to players with bad attitudes and don’t stay long. Building a winning culture by getting the players that want to be here and can be a team leader. It has not happened much outside of players like JPP and Brady.
- The Buccaneers playoff drought stretched to 13 years in 2019. One more would tie the era of futility seen from 1983 to 1996. In 2018 Fan apathy led to thousands of empty seats at Raymond James Stadium in spite of offers of free tickets for existing season ticket holders and most games had way too many visiting fans taking up residence. Not only that but TV games were blacked out. Attendances at Buccaneer home games continued to decline in 2019. Did 2020 and 2021 make us forget or forgive? Did 2022 show that were really still the 2014-2019 Buccaneers?
Questions to consider:
- Licht’s 4 head coaches across 9 seasons and only 1 has had more wins than loses. Again, was Arians, a hall of fame coach, with an ability to build assemble a coaching staff and get players like Tom Brady why this team had success? 2020 and 2021 seem like outliers to Licht’s other 7 seasons.
Lovie Smith hired BEFORE Licht
Buccaneers always going to draft Winston over Mariota and both were bad, but Winston is local and the deep thrower for Evans
Koetter made sense for a young QB and Doug Martin. Not saying it was right move, just saying that was part of the real time calculation
But this is the strangest part of the analysis:
"Again, was Arians, a hall of fame coach, with an ability to build assemble a coaching staff and get players like Tom Brady why this team had success?
because its as if Arians is getting the credit for the success .. but its Licht who brought in Arians . . but your point is criticism of Licht, I think.
Aww...too many daiquiris last night?
Sounds delicious but no...
Your 3 examples including Evans, Winfield, and Wirfs were debunked. Stop moving the goalposts and just eat it.
Explain to me how you "debunked it". As far as I can tell is all you've all said is "players don't fall" (wut?) Because the GM still has to make the right pick. And in order to strengthen your argument you've attempted to make this a binary choice. Licht good vs bad/credit vs no credit.
He still gets credit for not missing on such and EASY and OBVIOUS pick. But the pick is still easy and obvious.
Also, you keep ranting about Humphries.
You (as well as others) live in this fantasy world where it doesn't take TWO teams to execute a trade. You just go along with the mindset that if Licht offers to move up/down, the other team has to simply go along with it.
every pick has a price. Before the 2 centers were taken, you had teams taking D-line. Do i think the chiefs or Packers would have traded those picks? Prob not... but earlier picks once he fell, absolutely. What you hate to admit is that Licht was just targeting YOUR BOY Trask... he had Jensen and foolishly thought that drafting depth at o-line wasn't important to run it back.
Do I know that for a fact? Nope... in fact 95% of the things said on this board as opinion cannot be proven. Crazy right? It's almost like we are just debating for fun and speculating.
And, speaking of which, you know for a fact that Licht didn't try to move up for Creed?
Of course not... we are speculating. For all we know someone talked him into taking Evans, Winfield, and Wirfs. We cannot know... we simply see the results.
And the delta between all pro Creed whom many were hoping for as early as our first round pick, and Trask the career backup are a wider chasm than the grand canyon.
And its no suprise the Gator honks share a similar opinion
The best reply to this topic was also the purpose of the topic. Instead, arguing over whether GMs are good based on their intellect of “what fell to them” vs their decision to pick that player has occurred.
Because "best" is a relative term. How you judge something as best is relative to context... or on a curve.
Steve Young was a great draft pick. We drafted a HOF qb. Is that the bucs draft pick of all time? Of course not...
Extreme example but it matters.
Licht imo has drafted poorly and managed free agency poorly. But when he hits, he hits damn well.
When I really think about it I wonder if Shaq Barrett has to be one of his best moves ever.
I wonder if trading back for Vea was one of the best and taking him, yes, over beloved Derwin James.
Brady is on paper his best move ever but I wonder how much of him coming here was Licht assembling an attractive roster (a good argument to be had) vs Raiders and Niners telling him no first? Pretty amazing timing for us (Licht) that it happened right as Winston's contract expired. (again I am giving him credit so try not to wet yourself).
Marpet was an incredible pick... nobody thought that would work out.
Godwin was incredible value.
JPP trade seemed bad at first but paid huge dividends in changing the culture.
Drafting David... gotta be high up there.
Licht is Frank Thomas. It's a strike out or a home run... not a ton of singles
Sounds delicious but no...
Surrender flag noted...
He still gets credit for not missing on such and EASY and OBVIOUS pick. But the pick is still easy and obvious.
I'll cut through your usual goalpost moving bullshit to this. Since it was your original point.
And, for the sake of time, I'll only use your 1st example of Mike Evans.
He wasn't the EASY and OBVIOUS pick, as you suggested.
Like I said earlier, kiddo. You weren't around here in those days. These boards were split on this one. And, there was a big contingent of this fanbase who was pulling for Donald.
And, looking back...He was the EASY and OBVIOUS pick. As he was when we were on the clock.
Now, it obviously worked out for us; but that doesn't negate that Donald was the better pick/player.
Of course not... we are speculating.
Exactly what I thought.
Again, surrender noted.
_________________________
Like I've said numerous times.
You have numerous reasons to bash Licht. Same one I have, as well as others.
But, these other ones you choose to die on the hill for, are just comical.
Donald wasn't a need. We had already invested in the d-line... McCoy, Price, Bowers, Clayborn, and Gholston.
You're just talking out your ass now...
Evans was the best WR in the draft and we desperately needed a top tier WR.
The point is that when the BPA is a position of need.
Or did you skip that part over when you selectively cut/paste whatever parts you feel like responding to that fit your argument?
See DH, here's the thing... it's an opinion. Feel free to disagree. But it's blind hubris to KNOW you're right.
Licht has been more lucky than good.
Feel free to think different, old man.
See DH, here's the thing... it's an opinion.
Well, at least you got something right, kiddo.
Licht is Frank Thomas. It's a strike out or a home run... not a ton of singles
Frank Thomas was career .301 hitter with more walks (1667) and singles (1440) than strikeouts (1397) in his career. I see you don't know much about baseball either.
The Mayor of Cluelessville reigns supreme.
