But the offense really has to take huge strides this upcoming season to really take over some games this year with pass and run to really help the defense
this
@alldaway Agree, d-line is about a year away from having the tools at edge to be dominant. Bowles is able to bring pressure from the secondary, he’s shown that he can, but it comes at a price.
Offense should be better, similar scheme means the new scheme is building off of similar concepts, and the talent on O-Line & RB (and WR) should be able to sustain some drives, keeping our defense off the field and hopefully that scoring pressure you reference.
thats looks to be the plan of attack, can’t wait to see how they pull it off!
nice post.
@alldaway - exactly what I was saying. Sadly Ramirez, Watts, etc aren’t going to offer much. Our edge group will be near one of the worst in the league in pass rush. And it will eventually catch up to the best of defenses. Not sure what Licht and Bowles were thinking all offseason with their lack of urgency at that position.
I do not think the pass rush will be the worst in the league or one of the worst. Nelson and JTS can give you 4-5 sacks along with Diaby. Vea and Kancey that puts the Bucs up to 25 sacks between those five players alone and there ae the sacks generated from blitzing. The problem is you need a dominant edge rusher to allow the blitzes to really work from the other side of the 9 gap or blind side of the QB as an example.
To me the Bucs should have signed an established veteran edge rusher with a better pedigree which would give Diaby breathing room to develop and Braswell to be used in a rotation with JTS, Nelson, Ramirez/Watts.
They are gambling that one of the young players takes a huge step so we shall see if the gamble pays off.
Not sure what Licht and Bowles were thinking all offseason
Re-signing/extending AWJ, Wirfs, Evans, LVD, and Mayfield
@alldaway - I’ll drill down for you. Numbers can be deceiving. And Vita and Kansey will help the edge players sack numbers because QBs will feel the penetration from the middle and run into sacks from the edge guys.
When I say the edge room will be near the bottom, I’m solely focusing on pass rushing. Yaya is a player and I like him. But his natural position is not edge. He’s more of a 4i or 5 technique DE. He isn’t as fluid as elite OLBs. His sacks come on 1st and 2nd downs where the oline have quick sets or play action is more involved. He doesn’t win enough on 3rd down passing situations. That’s where we are specifically lacking at the position. And that’ll make the difference in our defensive success and has the last few years. We’ve had a tough time getting off the field on 3rd down. And a lot of that has been because we don’t get to the QB enough with our front 4 in passing situations.
@alldaway - I’ll drill down for you. Numbers can be deceiving. And Vita and Kansey will help the edge players sack numbers because QBs will feel the penetration from the middle and run into sacks from the edge guys.
When I say the edge room will be near the bottom, I’m solely focusing on pass rushing. Yaya is a player and I like him. But his natural position is not edge. He’s more of a 4i or 5 technique DE. He isn’t as fluid as elite OLBs. His sacks come on 1st and 2nd downs where the oline have quick sets or play action is more involved. He doesn’t win enough on 3rd down passing situations. That’s where we are specifically lacking at the position. And that’ll make the difference in our defensive success and has the last few years. We’ve had a tough time getting off the field on 3rd down. And a lot of that has been because we don’t get to the QB enough with our front 4 in passing situations.
So, what’s your solution?
And a lot of that has been because we don’t get to the QB enough with our front 4 in passing situations.
Interesting
In 2019 (Shaq's big year) it looks like the Bucs are 4th in the league in opponents 3rd down conversion rate (34%). I
In 2023 they drop to 22nd with nearly 40% conversions against them. Also, in 2023 they allowed nearly 40% conversions for the seasons despite holding opponents to 22% conversions at the end of the season (last 3 games).
So, seems to support your point.
The Bucs 2023 season came to a close in large part because the D couldn't get off the field. The Lions had 3 TD drives (I think) in a row, all 60 plus yards , although I think there may have been only a few 3rd downs ugh
@donkey_hunter - At this point it’s hard to solve it for this season. I said immediately at the end of last season that edge needs to be a priority, and due to our draft position, it needed to be a free agent or by trade. There were edge free agents that would have started for us and we decided to pass. Maybe they made that decision because of money, maybe they thought we had better guys already on the roster, who knows for sure? But tough decisions can make or break a season. Edge is about as important a position as it gets on a defense. It’s gonna hurt this year.
I said immediately at the end of last season that edge needs to be a priority, and due to our draft position, it needed to be a free agent or by trade. There were edge free agents that would have started for us and we decided to pass.
Fair.
So, who would you have signed?
And, who would you not have re-signed/extended to make room for this new F/A?
When I say the edge room will be near the bottom, I’m solely focusing on pass rushing. Yaya is a player and I like him. But his natural position is not edge. He’s more of a 4i or 5 technique DE. He isn’t as fluid as elite OLBs. His sacks come on 1st and 2nd downs where the oline have quick sets or play action is more involved. He doesn’t win enough on 3rd down passing situations. That’s where we are specifically lacking at the position. And that’ll make the difference in our defensive success and has the last few years. We’ve had a tough time getting off the field on 3rd down. And a lot of that has been because we don’t get to the QB enough with our front 4 in passing situations.
I am not sure that is the entire picture. Shaq had better pressure number than Diaby but Watts was much higher and saw the field a lot less. If Shaq was subbed out of third down situations or even Diaby and Watts was in then you would have more three and outs last year most likely.
Also, Braswell is known for finishing plays where he brings pressures and sacks. So what Diaby and JTS may not bring on third downs consistently this is where Braswell and Watts shine.
Also Ramirez is the wild card in this.
As for position that is most natural to Diaby I do not see him as a 5 tech because he is under sized. Normally a five tech is closer to of an athlete of a three tech or even have a lot more strength for bull rushing. It doesn't help that player like Hall is manning 5 tech because yes players like Diaby and Brawell, and Nelson all may play better at 5 tech than Hall. But they are not 5 techs in Bowles scheme.
Bowles really like Nelson, Braswell and Diaby as edge rushers because not only do they have to play the run but they also have to drop in coverage to disrupt passing lanes and protect the perimeter.
So the reality is for the Bucs pressures to increase the Bucs have to let Watts or Ramireze see the field more on third down situations. And Also Braswell to an extent.
@alldaway - I like bantering with you, because you have a little football knowledge to backup your comments. But this one is a huge reach. Your solution is Ramirez and Watts??? Two UDFAs who haven’t shown anything consistently on the field? That’s not how it usually works. And may players pre season potential don’t end with regular season impact. Sorry, I don’t see it in these guys.
Its like the argument those who didn’t like the Mayfid signing make.@alldaway - I like bantering with you, because you have a little football knowledge to backup your comments. But this one is a huge reach. Your solution is Ramirez and Watts??? Two UDFAs who haven’t shown anything consistently on the field? That’s not how it usually works. And may players pre season potential don’t end with regular season impact. Sorry, I don’t see it in these guys.
Which takes us (ironically) back to the question @Donkey_Hunter asked: what’s your solution?
What choice did we miss?
It turns out the bottom of the barrel was too expensive…and it looks to me like taking a risk on rolling with our current roster, is as much of a risk as taking a chance on a one armed edge who is 32 years old (who will no doubt get more money than he anticipated), or a malcontent Reddick who never showed up for his new team, yet is instead either leveraging them for a massive contract or a trade that will net him more money than many of us think he is worth.
@white-tiger - it’s kind of a loaded question. We don’t end up where we are at the edge position without making mistakes over the last few years. Much longer response than a post offers. I’ll just give some background.
When is the last time we’ve developed someone at this position? We brought Shaq and JPP in as free agents. Who has truly gotten better over the last 4 years at Edge? JTS is who he has always been. Yaya did what he does… power, never stop attitude, finisher. I’m hoping he can add to those skills and develop more over the next few years. But we have not had success developing anyone at edge in a long time.
JTS was a forced draft pick. Meaning our front office knew they had to start priming someone to replace JPP. So they took the next best guy available. A guy that didn’t play football for a year and we were relying on his potential. And then we don’t address the position hoping he’ll develop.
There were guys that we could have had this offseason that would have helped make up for these mistakes and would have started from day 1… Burns, Clowney, Hunter, Van Ginkel… and others.
it’s always said that your drafts are only as good as if you re-up your first round picks after their rookie contract. Well, we had a miss with Devin White. A way to fill that miss is to spend that money on a guy getting his 2nd contract from somewhere else. We could have traded for Brian Burns. And yes, we could have made the money work out if it was important enough.
Long story short. These decisions linger and one day you stop and say “how did we get here?” Well, edge is one of the last positions you can make that mistake at. Our hope is that we can finally start developing someone and that we have someone on this roster that can be developed. If not, we’ll be having the same conversation next year, after an early exit from the playoffs… if we’re lucky enough to make it.
@alldaway - I like bantering with you, because you have a little football knowledge to backup your comments. But this one is a huge reach. Your solution is Ramirez and Watts??? Two UDFAs who haven’t shown anything consistently on the field? That’s not how it usually works. And may players pre season potential don’t end with regular season impact. Sorry, I don’t see it in these guys.
There are those that overrate lesser players every preseason. Hardly any of their prognostications ever come to fruition.
Seriously, every single year.
