It's difficult because having good character in general does not make you a good football player. There are plenty of high character teachers and firemen and bus drivers and chefs and college football players. But being a high character college football player doesn't directly correlate to being a good NFL player. You can't just say Player X has A high character plus B good measurables = C NFL good player. Not that simple.Wow that sounds easy. Just draft the guys with good character! But of course it isn't. How do you really identify guys with character vs. guys who are just for sho
Definitely difficult, but very important. I think the Bucs do it by looking for some basic traits like team captains and production, but also by interviews and and lot of talking with coaches and other players. Even then they obviously have misses, but at least they are trying to narrow the scope of the misses by looking beyond just measurables. Kudos to them.
Licht says "it was about five years ago." That is probably just a rough recollection, but it is interesting because of Devin White. Devin White's primary issue is/was his character and specifically that he does NOT love football. Lots of physical skills, but not the kind of guy Licht is focused on now. ironically, Bruce Arians specifically said that White was the right pick because he loved football. Maybe White was the turning point, but he was playing well in 2020 season, obviously, so maybe not.
More recently, the Bucs sort of questioned McMillan's character a bit early last season. He responded well, but then they went big at WR this draft. Imperfect process for sure. Either way though the picks this year seem to suggest they have an actual method and are sticking with it.
I wouldn't say its difficult
It's difficult because having good character in general does not make you a good football player.
All you have to do is reverse your equation and it makes sense.
all things being equal the Bucs would choose the high character good football player over the good football player with questionable character.
Nothing is an absolute in a player evaluation except maybe something extreme. Licht just talked about this. If they have their eye on a good football player the question is what kind of person. That doesn't mean the player has to be a high character player (their definition) it just means that high character probably pushes them toward that player. Licht said they woukd take a good player who was immature (our 3rd WR might be that) but probably not a player who has shown all kinds of bad character traits.
Licht distinguished between bad character and immaturity. He’s willing to take someone with talent who may just need time and some good examples … he’s not willing to take guys who have criminal associations or has SA allegations. I think the allegations are just red flag for interviews.
im sure the Bucs do a good job of investigating allegations & distinguishing between rumors and guys with legit issues.
We likely will never hear about the ones removed from the board, but he said they do remove them.
im sure JTS had good character and good skills. Same with OJ Howard. It didn't translate into football success. I'm just saying it's not just a simple A+B=C equation.It's difficult because having good character in general does not make you a good football player.
All you have to do is reverse your equation and it makes sense.
all things being equal the Bucs would choose the high character good football player over the good football player with questionable character.
I'm just saying it's not just a simple A+B=C equation.
you're the only one saying thats what the Bucs said lol
This is an example of what they actually said:
""It was about five years ago and we were not having the success that I wanted, and we had a pow-wow, got together - all of us, the whole staff – just talking about, 'What are the picks that have made it? In the history of the Bucs, what are the guys that have made it? It was the person," described General Manager Jason Licht via the Pat McAfee show. "We are rarely missing on the player, we are missing on the person and what are these qualities of a person that made them successful, and we came up with a little slogan. John Spytek was a part of this too, it is called, 'I Am That Man.' We have a silhouette in our draft room and Lavonte David is actually the silhouette because he epitomizes everything about what we are looking for. You could say the same thing about Mike Evans, Chris Godwin and a host of others but it is a quality we are looking for…We mitigate our risk. We are taking great players that are great humans."
KEY POINTS:
"We are taking great players that are great humans"
"We mitigate our risk"
It is an ADDED quality they are looking for to mitigate their risk. GREAT PLAYERS (the first quality). . . who "are great humans"
You're sort of in the JC role on this one because you're arguing arguing that success is not really success because of the 'flawed" method. Licht is being lauded for his drafting success, you say the method is wrong. Our OC was lauded for record-breaking success, JC say the method was wrong.
The results sort of under cut that, right?
(Btw, OJ Howard is a pre-change example of the successful change, right?)
I don't think anyone believes the Bucs are just going after character guys. They’re going after proven tape, players who were competitive leaders at a high level - so the production is there - but what separates ALL of these picks is their character fits the culture.im sure JTS had good character and good skills. Same with OJ Howard. It didn't translate into football success. I'm just saying it's not just a simple A+B=C equation.It's difficult because having good character in general does not make you a good football player.
All you have to do is reverse your equation and it makes sense.
all things being equal the Bucs would choose the high character good football player over the good football player with questionable character.
There is a reason that Mike Green isn’t here.
The Bucs drafting process is solid but not perfect. There will always be some players who fit the bill, but for various reasons flame out. But the process increases the odds of getting the kind of players they want. Then it's up to the team and the player to make it work. Some do. Some don't.
There is a reason that Mike Green isn’t here.
As I said for months, he was never on their board.
The Bucs drafting process is solid but not perfect. There will always be some players who fit the bill, but for various reasons flame out. But the process increases the odds of getting the kind of players they want. Then it's up to the team and the player to make it work. Some do. Some don't.
This ^^^
The Licht-era Bucs have failed drafting guys who were OBVIOUS need picks. They have failed by drafting guys who were physical specimens, but lacked consistent production. They've blown it by drafting guys who they later learned clearly did NOT love football.
I think Licht uses the expression mitigating risk because thats what they are trying to do. They are favoring production and a history of overcoming adversity and a positive history of leadership, all as as ways to mitigate the risk that comes with drafting.
Its not always going to work, but there is a logic to it and it is based on experience. Better to have a GM who self scouts and adapts then who stubbornly sticks with a failed or inconsitent approach
There is a reason that Mike Green isn’t here.
As I said for months, he was never on their board.
You did say this are were correct. Doesn't mean we can't say "we should have taken him". Which I believe you said as well.
I know. I was questioned by Captain Cosplay and others. But, I knew FOR A FACT that he wasn’t on their boards (even offered a bet).
That being said, I thought he was arguably the best EDGE prospect in the draft (film, measurable, etc.).
Personally, I would’ve taken the gamble. But, don’t fault Licht at all for not even considering it.
One persons take but interesting to read
"here is cornerback Jacob Parrish to pick the ball off and house it. All practice, the third-round pick looked like the best defender on the field."
It's difficult because having good character in general does not make you a good football player. There are plenty of high character teachers and firemen and bus drivers and chefs and college football players. But being a high character college football player doesn't directly correlate to being a good NFL player. You can't just say Player X has A high character plus B good measurables = C NFL good player. Not that simple.Wow that sounds easy. Just draft the guys with good character! But of course it isn't. How do you really identify guys with character vs. guys who are just for sho
Definitely difficult, but very important. I think the Bucs do it by looking for some basic traits like team captains and production, but also by interviews and and lot of talking with coaches and other players. Even then they obviously have misses, but at least they are trying to narrow the scope of the misses by looking beyond just measurables. Kudos to them.
Licht says "it was about five years ago." That is probably just a rough recollection, but it is interesting because of Devin White. Devin White's primary issue is/was his character and specifically that he does NOT love football. Lots of physical skills, but not the kind of guy Licht is focused on now. ironically, Bruce Arians specifically said that White was the right pick because he loved football. Maybe White was the turning point, but he was playing well in 2020 season, obviously, so maybe not.
More recently, the Bucs sort of questioned McMillan's character a bit early last season. He responded well, but then they went big at WR this draft. Imperfect process for sure. Either way though the picks this year seem to suggest they have an actual method and are sticking with it.
I wouldn't say its difficult
I think the version of character I'm talking about is football character and mental toughness. The character I think Licht is looking for is the wanting to be great part. The character to go watch film instead of going out is he football junkie character.
The first priority in grading a player absolutely needs to be gamefilm, then can look at measurables then, character. And then you can interview and talk to your guy if you need more info.
A lot of game film can show you the character of the football player, how hard he blocks, does he push the pile, how hard he runs fighting for yards, how hard he tries to help on a tackle, is he willing take on the guy bigger than him, it really shows their mental acuity of the game and heart. General guys who do selfless and tough things are general players who will do whatever it takes to win and care about the team game and get "it". The "character" plays are really just toughness and typically bleeds into their daily life and how they practice and approach the day to day
Like when a qb wants to go out and block it means he loves the game, putting your body on the line fighting for yards. Guys who innately love the game will put their bodies on the line in less than ideal situations to do what it takes on film.
example chris godwin tough sob. Fight for yards, goes over the middle, fearless literally tears an acl because of how fearless he is. Blocks Defensive ends/Lb (im sure roquan was pissed at him). Runs hard and with power(that time he ran over the saints DB thsi year and yelled "you too fkn small"). Very good IQ. All those things you can see on film before you even talk to the guy and when he can do all those selfless things with elite toughness his film will look good. A lot of these are little things but they matter. There's a reason why Brady trusted him so much, He has a very high football iq and feel for the game and can make every tough catch.
But in the NFL character is very important to succeed because in the college game the systems imo are much simpler. Guys are in lift practice class then practice, then they can do whatever they want in their free time. In NFL theres so much more installs like protections, audibles, specific looks in fronts, what do you audible, like specific scenarios like what happens if i see double A mug, and you're expected to be around the facility a full work day and more. Because you get paid so much in the NFL its so easy for a young 25 year old to let loose a little too often and not focus on the job as much. Film study is very necessary to have an edge, in college the gap in talent is wide enough there where those little thigns can be forgiven.
I have to agree that Licht did draft for character in the past. But the bigger emphasis is now on football character. Do they want to study film, hone their craft, try to be elite at everything they do?
Wirfs is a good example as he shifted to LT with ease. It could be argued he has the athletic gifts but he also has the will power to make it happen and he wasn't stubborn about shifting to LT.
T. Smith is another where he is open to playing safety or seeing more playing time even though he shows glimpses of excellence as a nickel.
Bucs drafted Egbuka to be an elite all around player and I have no doubt that he will excel in ways many thought not possible. People are not ready if they are going to dismiss him just because he is a rookie. Pray that the Bucs opponenets make that misake and let Egbuka run around open.