Very small sample size. 4 plays aint enough or fair to compare White in regards to conventional running plays.We need to see Bucky producing on similar run plays when White is not on the field or being used as a decoy.
Easy one because there are several in just one drive
3rd quarter we get the ball at our 41
PLAY 1 - Irving runs for 4 on the first play and its notable because its NOT a gadget play AND HE IS MET IN THE BACKFIELD by their safety (ie he succeeds where White has struggled)
PLAY 2 -Irving with a delayed release reception for 4 yrds (he can catch too)
PLAY 3- Irving runs for 6 yards behind SKULE (no less)
PLAY 4 -- NO GAIN (specifically included because he's not perfect but go watch the play Otton and McMillan are both beaten terribly
The "gadget plays" thing s to 2024 what "Mayfield's only succeeding because of Canales" was to 2023
Ahh someone using context, good post.Most of Bucky's big runs though are coming from unconventional running plays. There are more gadget type runs that involve White in the formation which creates some sort of delay reaction from defenses. I like Bucky too but I'm not ready to turn the page on White until they fix the iOL. We need to see Bucky producing on similar run plays when White is not on the field or being used as a decoy
All of them have.
When you take away all his gadget runs, he’s averaging well less than 4.0ypc.
Not to mention the 1st down run rate with Bucky in, is significantly lower than it is for Raachad.
Interesting stats thus far, White has been hit behind the line of scrimmage on 76% of his carries.
Im fine with giving Bucky the start. Let’s see how he fares with the same predictable play calling, 1st down run rate, and vanilla run scheme Rachaad has had. No gimmick plays.
If he’s night and day better, then so be it.
Very small sample size. 4 plays aint enough or fair to compare White in regards to conventional running plays.We need to see Bucky producing on similar run plays when White is not on the field or being used as a decoy.
Easy one because there are several in just one drive
3rd quarter we get the ball at our 41
PLAY 1 - Irving runs for 4 on the first play and its notable because its NOT a gadget play AND HE IS MET IN THE BACKFIELD by their safety (ie he succeeds where White has struggled)
PLAY 2 -Irving with a delayed release reception for 4 yrds (he can catch too)
PLAY 3- Irving runs for 6 yards behind SKULE (no less)
PLAY 4 -- NO GAIN (specifically included because he's not perfect but go watch the play Otton and McMillan are both beaten terribly
The "gadget plays" thing s to 2024 what "Mayfield's only succeeding because of Canales" was to 2023
there are more than that, obviously. I specifically chose that sample because:
a) its from the most recent game and
b) it provides a DIRECT comparison to White's weakness and
c) its a series of non-gadget plays (the premise being discussed.
but, if you want to discuss sample size (while excluding big runs for ONE RB lol) even DH says
When you take away all his gadget runs, he’s averaging well less than 4.0ypc.
So let us work off that "stat:"
White is something like 2.1ypc (31 carries) THIS SEASON versus 6ish from Irving (25 carries) even CAREER White is only something like 3.6 ypc
In other words, UNLESS you want to have it both ways, it is precisely SAMPLE SIZE that works against White.
Note my comment that BASIC FOOTBALL COMMON SENSE says that the hot hand (Irving) should get more carries, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF IRVING but because White has NEVER YET shown that he can be me than a 3.6 ypc RB (and I am a fan and defender of White last season*) and this season he is 2.1ypc.
* Again, why I ASKED if it was possible his role would change this year with coaches STILL talking about slow to hit the hole
Ahh someone using context, good post.
This ^^ is the beauty of the Red Board.
If the roles were reversed the Irving side would be calling me a "White apologist" or something like "White fluffer" LMAO and would be DENYING meaningful context and posting things like "6.2 is greater than 2.1. . . . that is a FACT"
:-)
Ahh someone using context, good post.
This ^^ is the beauty of the Red Board.
If the roles were reversed the Irving side would be calling me a "White apologist" or something like "White fluffer" LMAO and would be DENYING meaningful context and posting things like "6.2 is greater than 2.1. . . . that is a FACT"
:-)
and claiming this is just "coach speak"
BOWLES, asked why Irving did not get the ball more - “We were behind. We threw it a little bit more, Rachaad’s probably a better pass protector at this point, but Bucky has definitely earned more reps.”
Well . . . unless it was Coen talking positively about White
:-)
Ahh someone using context, good post.Most of Bucky's big runs though are coming from unconventional running plays. There are more gadget type runs that involve White in the formation which creates some sort of delay reaction from defenses. I like Bucky too but I'm not ready to turn the page on White until they fix the iOL. We need to see Bucky producing on similar run plays when White is not on the field or being used as a decoy
All of them have.
When you take away all his gadget runs, he’s averaging well less than 4.0ypc.
Not to mention the 1st down run rate with Bucky in, is significantly lower than it is for Raachad.
Interesting stats thus far, White has been hit behind the line of scrimmage on 76% of his carries.
Im fine with giving Bucky the start. Let’s see how he fares with the same predictable play calling, 1st down run rate, and vanilla run scheme Rachaad has had. No gimmick plays.
If he’s night and day better, then so be it.
Appreciate it, bro.
Here's a great tweet from Queipo on the subject (which he also mentions speaking about it with Ledyard on his pod):
-----------
"A thread on Bucky v. Rachaad with proper context applied. First off it I want to acknowledge some of the people who have provided useful information to put their ypc numbers in context. Myself and Ledyard have discussed it on his Audibles and Analytics Podcast...
...But I wanted to really isolate things. I applied 2 important filters.
- 1. 1 and 2 downs only. 3D runs are either 1-2 yard plays or 3rd and a billion. Not usually run with normal ideas of success applied.
- 2. Score diff. of -10 to +50 to account 4 DEF wanting 2 stop the run.
With all that said, here we go...
- Outside Zone:
- White - 8 car 12 yds 1.5 ypc 15 YAC
- Irving - 2 car -2 yds -1.0 ypc 3 YAC
- Inside Zone:
- White - 7 car 6 yds 0.9 ypc 3 YAC
- Irving - 2 car -11 yds 5.5 ypc 3 YAC
- Counter:
- White - 0 carries
- Irving - 1 carry 3 yds 3.0 ypc 1 YAC
- Trap:
- White - 1 carry 15 yds 15.0 ypc 6 YAC
- Irving - 0 carries
- Lead:
- White - 2 carries 7 yds 3.5 ypc 4 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry 8 yds 8.0 ypc 4 YAC
- Sweep:
- White - 0 carries
- Irving - 1 carry 2 yds 2.0 ypc 2 YAC
- Duo:
- White - 2 carries 7 yds 3.5 ypc 4 YAC
- Irving - 5 carries 20 yds 4.0 ypc 6 YAC
- Wham:
- White - 1 carry 5 yds 5.0 ypc 3 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry 31 yds 31.0 ypc 2 YAC
- Toss:
- White - 3 carries 7 yds 2.3 ypc 6 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry -1 yd -1.0 ypc 0 YAC
- Power:
- White - 2 carries 7 yds 3.5 ypc 4 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry 8 yds 8.0 ypc 2 YAC
- Final tally for those following along:
- White - 24 carries 59 yds 2.5 ypc 44 YAC 1.8 YAC/car
- Irving - 14 carries 72 yds 5.1 ypc 20 YAC 1.4 YAC/car
- Almost all of Irvings production came on the 31 yd Wham. Take it out and hes 13-41-3.2-18-1.4
- In almost all of these comparisons, when allowing like-for-like situations and context the two backs are fairly similar in their results bc the underlying issue is blocking mechanics from OL/TE/WR. Both do better on gap runs. Both do worse on zone runs especially OZ.
- Irving averaged 3.7 yds BEFORE CONTACT on those runs while White averaged 0.6. Take out the wham play (when Irving wasn't touched until 29 yds downfield) and he is still averaging 1.2 yds BEFORE CONTACT more than White bc he gets more of the plays the OL does best."
There's some more to the tweet, but Josh does a good job adding context.
Maybe the Bucs should throw more on first down DUH.
Maybe the Bucs should throw more on first down DUH.
yes!
Its like the play caller is a rookie!
oh … well
In almost all of these comparisons, when allowing like-for-like situations and context the two backs are fairly similar in their results
lol
we are now saying 6.2 is - when put in context - no better than 2.1 (NOT FACTUAL ) because IF you take out that ON E long run in ONE game and IF you then make Irving run those 1st down runs . . . his average of 6.2 will come down . . . CLOSER to White's 2.1.
LMAO
A VERY WISE football mind here once said:
Are we going to let White get a carry with the 1’s in the new scheme before crowning Bucky?
How about we let Irving get those STATISTIC-KILLING runs for a while before we crown White the leagues-only UNTOUCHABLE 2.1 ypc runner?
(the gymnastics are fantastic . . . but when do one of the "White apologist" acknowledge WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED here . . . because it sounds like . . wait . . it might just be . . .maybe . . White losing reps to Irving? WEEEEEEIIIIRRRDDDDD, right? I thought that was VERBOTEN!!!)
:-)
lol
we are now saying 6.2 is - when put in context - no better than 2.1 (NOT FACTUAL ) because IF you take out that ON E long run in ONE game and IF you then make Irving run those 1st down runs . . . his average of 6.2 will come down . . . CLOSER to White's 2.1.
So, I guess you only like to spam Queipo’s tweets when it fits your narrative.
Not surprising in the least, ya’ lush.
Maybe the Bucs should throw more on first down DUH.
preach!
Preach!!
PREACH!!!
And, one last time, for those in the back!
lol
we are now saying 6.2 is - when put in context - no better than 2.1 (NOT FACTUAL ) because IF you take out that ON E long run in ONE game and IF you then make Irving run those 1st down runs . . . his average of 6.2 will come down . . . CLOSER to White's 2.1.
So, I guess you only like to spam Queipo’s tweets when it fits your narrative.
Not surprising in the least, ya’ lush.
right on cue
When do one of the "White apologist" acknowledge WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED here . . . because it sounds like . . wait . . it might just be . . .maybe . . White losing reps to Irving?
the answer: never
lol
when it fits your narrative.
you mean . . .like Bowles comment are "coach speak" but the comments by the "guy who calls the offense" is not?
weird
when it fits your narrative.
you mean . . .like Bowles comment are "coach speak" but the comments by the "guy who calls the offense" is not?
weird
Wait, what about this Coen "coach speak?"
“It’s hard to ignore, I mean, he touches the ball and typically some good things have occurred,” Coen said of Irving. “So that’s why we’ve, in that last game, tried to get him the ball, and tried to get him the ball in space and dial some things up for him that, you know, not a lot of other guys are doing. Right?
“You get him a little bit of an end-around type deal, a couple of end-arounds. You know, He’s just continuing to get better and better, and his role will continue to go as he goes. As much as he keeps producing and he keeps doing all the right things like he has been. You know, the more and more we’ll get, he’ll get.”
the answer: never
What was being discussed between me and @detrimental was the “overhyping” of Bucky’s performance without context.
And, I was simply responding to @detrimental with a tweet from Queipo regarding said topic (hence, why I didn’t tag you, reply to you, ignored you).
Naturally, the liquored up litigator began his spam posting.
