Thats Bowles and now Coen saying the obvious about the "hot hand" Irving. He's EARNED more
Like WT said before and I have said, the Bucs need BOTH of them
I would add that the best thing for the Bucs would be for White to start breaking runs, having less negatives etc, so let's all hope for that. That would make their Pony scheme extra tough to counter
There was NOTHING controversial about asking IN THE PRESEASON if White's style might open the door for Irving and there's nothing controversial about it now THAT IT IS HAPPENING.
it is a good thing FOR THE BUCS
the answer: never
What was being discussed between me and @detrimental was the “overhyping” of Bucky’s performance without context.
um . . okay
Thanks for the explanation for the 4 play sample size. Regardless, of the reasoning its just not good enough variance to even compare players.Very small sample size. 4 plays aint enough or fair to compare White in regards to conventional running plays.We need to see Bucky producing on similar run plays when White is not on the field or being used as a decoy.
Easy one because there are several in just one drive
3rd quarter we get the ball at our 41
PLAY 1 - Irving runs for 4 on the first play and its notable because its NOT a gadget play AND HE IS MET IN THE BACKFIELD by their safety (ie he succeeds where White has struggled)
PLAY 2 -Irving with a delayed release reception for 4 yrds (he can catch too)
PLAY 3- Irving runs for 6 yards behind SKULE (no less)
PLAY 4 -- NO GAIN (specifically included because he's not perfect but go watch the play Otton and McMillan are both beaten terribly
The "gadget plays" thing s to 2024 what "Mayfield's only succeeding because of Canales" was to 2023
there are more than that, obviously. I specifically chose that sample because:
a) its from the most recent game and
b) it provides a DIRECT comparison to White's weakness and
c) its a series of non-gadget plays (the premise being discussed.
but, if you want to discuss sample size (while excluding big runs for ONE RB lol) even DH says
When you take away all his gadget runs, he’s averaging well less than 4.0ypc.
So let us work off that "stat:"
White is something like 2.1ypc (31 carries) THIS SEASON versus 6ish from Irving (25 carries) even CAREER White is only something like 3.6 ypc
In other words, UNLESS you want to have it both ways, it is precisely SAMPLE SIZE that works against White.
Note my comment that BASIC FOOTBALL COMMON SENSE says that the hot hand (Irving) should get more carries, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF IRVING but because White has NEVER YET shown that he can be me than a 3.6 ypc RB (and I am a fan and defender of White last season*) and this season he is 2.1ypc.
* Again, why I ASKED if it was possible his role would change this year with coaches STILL talking about slow to hit the hole
Yeah I get it, I can read numbers well. What's lost in numbers though is down in distance, situational football type setting. Its more than just black and white that me and DH that we're looking at.
Nothing wrong with feeding the hot hand, I just think we should see more from him without gadget runs before making conclusions. Not that hard to comprehend
Saw that this morning. I appreciate that Josh did that, it pretty much highlighted what most knew already. Now THAT is some context!Ahh someone using context, good post.Most of Bucky's big runs though are coming from unconventional running plays. There are more gadget type runs that involve White in the formation which creates some sort of delay reaction from defenses. I like Bucky too but I'm not ready to turn the page on White until they fix the iOL. We need to see Bucky producing on similar run plays when White is not on the field or being used as a decoy
All of them have.
When you take away all his gadget runs, he’s averaging well less than 4.0ypc.
Not to mention the 1st down run rate with Bucky in, is significantly lower than it is for Raachad.
Interesting stats thus far, White has been hit behind the line of scrimmage on 76% of his carries.
Im fine with giving Bucky the start. Let’s see how he fares with the same predictable play calling, 1st down run rate, and vanilla run scheme Rachaad has had. No gimmick plays.
If he’s night and day better, then so be it.
Appreciate it, bro.
Here's a great tweet from Queipo on the subject (which he also mentions speaking about it with Ledyard on his pod):
-----------
"A thread on Bucky v. Rachaad with proper context applied. First off it I want to acknowledge some of the people who have provided useful information to put their ypc numbers in context. Myself and Ledyard have discussed it on his Audibles and Analytics Podcast...
...But I wanted to really isolate things. I applied 2 important filters.
- 1. 1 and 2 downs only. 3D runs are either 1-2 yard plays or 3rd and a billion. Not usually run with normal ideas of success applied.
- 2. Score diff. of -10 to +50 to account 4 DEF wanting 2 stop the run.
With all that said, here we go...
- Outside Zone:
- White - 8 car 12 yds 1.5 ypc 15 YAC
- Irving - 2 car -2 yds -1.0 ypc 3 YAC
- Inside Zone:
- White - 7 car 6 yds 0.9 ypc 3 YAC
- Irving - 2 car -11 yds 5.5 ypc 3 YAC
- Counter:
- White - 0 carries
- Irving - 1 carry 3 yds 3.0 ypc 1 YAC
- Trap:
- White - 1 carry 15 yds 15.0 ypc 6 YAC
- Irving - 0 carries
- Lead:
- White - 2 carries 7 yds 3.5 ypc 4 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry 8 yds 8.0 ypc 4 YAC
- Sweep:
- White - 0 carries
- Irving - 1 carry 2 yds 2.0 ypc 2 YAC
- Duo:
- White - 2 carries 7 yds 3.5 ypc 4 YAC
- Irving - 5 carries 20 yds 4.0 ypc 6 YAC
- Wham:
- White - 1 carry 5 yds 5.0 ypc 3 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry 31 yds 31.0 ypc 2 YAC
- Toss:
- White - 3 carries 7 yds 2.3 ypc 6 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry -1 yd -1.0 ypc 0 YAC
- Power:
- White - 2 carries 7 yds 3.5 ypc 4 YAC
- Irving - 1 carry 8 yds 8.0 ypc 2 YAC
- Final tally for those following along:
- White - 24 carries 59 yds 2.5 ypc 44 YAC 1.8 YAC/car
- Irving - 14 carries 72 yds 5.1 ypc 20 YAC 1.4 YAC/car
- Almost all of Irvings production came on the 31 yd Wham. Take it out and hes 13-41-3.2-18-1.4
- In almost all of these comparisons, when allowing like-for-like situations and context the two backs are fairly similar in their results bc the underlying issue is blocking mechanics from OL/TE/WR. Both do better on gap runs. Both do worse on zone runs especially OZ.
- Irving averaged 3.7 yds BEFORE CONTACT on those runs while White averaged 0.6. Take out the wham play (when Irving wasn't touched until 29 yds downfield) and he is still averaging 1.2 yds BEFORE CONTACT more than White bc he gets more of the plays the OL does best."
There's some more to the tweet, but Josh does a good job adding context.
Sounds like you got PTSD. Don't project your red board trauma onto me, I don't have a history of favoring players. That's why I don't get called those names.Ahh someone using context, good post.
This ^^ is the beauty of the Red Board.
If the roles were reversed the Irving side would be calling me a "White apologist" or something like "White fluffer" LMAO and would be DENYING meaningful context and posting things like "6.2 is greater than 2.1. . . . that is a FACT"
:-)
Saw that this morning. I appreciate that Josh did that, it pretty much highlighted what most knew already. Now THAT is some context!
Yeah. It was extremely solid work (as usual for him).
As already mentioned, it provided the context that was missing; while also highlighting areas of opportunity for Coen.
My biggest 2 takeaways are:
1. We need stop running on 1D as much as we do. Same issues with Canales.
2. Our iOL is so bad in run blocking. Super bad.
Thanks for the explanation for the 4 play sample size.
The relevant sample size is not 4.
The sample size is in excess of 400 runs, I think?
Irving should get more runs (something I suggested in the preseason might happen ) because White was something like a 3.6 ypc runner before this season and is currently 2.1. Thats over 400 runs . .. across multiple offenses and coaches. He's great in the passing game but his CAREER so far has him as one of the LEAST efficient runners in the NFL
It is WHITE's sample size that says they should give more to Irving . . a point made by Bowles and Coen. . . because its basic common sense, even if it was a pretty unpopular question (lol) in the preseason.
As far as I can see, no one is overhyping IRVING, some are over hyping WHITE. I want nothing more than for White to turn that around.
Maybe he will in attempts 450 to 500?
:-)
Saw that this morning. I appreciate that Josh did that, it pretty much highlighted what most knew already. Now THAT is some context!
Yeah. It was extremely solid work (as usual for him).
So was this from Josh Q
"The lone note I have on this rep is for White. As compared to most people who are hyper-focused on the Bucs, I am pretty down on him. Not that I think he is a bad back, but I don’t see the upside as a runner that others project. This run would be an example of him leaving meat on the bone.
After his initial cutback he shadows Goedeke and Mauch trying to decide if he wants to continue to bounce back to the right or make another cut back to the left. Ultimately, he makes the right decision (to cut back to the left), but in the split second he hesitates in making the decision he loses his opportunity to leave the scrum altogether and break a big gain. It’s those fractions of a second that separate the great from the good."
Its on page 3 of this thread and ONE reason why i asked if White might lose reps to Irving
The 4th play I listed from last game is Irving leaving "meat on the bone" on a play where i doubt White gets tackled and probably has his own big play:
DH, this was your prediction right after I posted Josh's extremely solid work:
I would expect Bucky to get a slightly similar split that Edmunds/Tucker had last season (maybe a little more, as I expect us to run more).
I AGREE with the rest of your comment about Irving's receiving skills and pass protection skills as compared to White, but do you still think that (barring injury) irving's workload this season would be roughly that of Edmunds/Tucker last season?
He's going to get more (% basis), right?
And part of that is because of White's underperformance running thus far?
Naturally, the liquored up litigator began his spam posting.
If it wasn’t for that lunatic, this thread would only be about two pages instead of eleven.
Naturally, the liquored up litigator began his spam posting.
If it wasn’t for that lunatic, this thread would only be about two pages instead of eleven.
Actually, if you read the quote of the Josh Q thread his CONCLUSION about team is the same as me and WT … the team needs BOTH
And also about White v Irving he CONCLUDED this:
”With all of that said, I think Bucky is the better pure runner due to better foot speed and shorter strides that let him operate in tight spaces (and the OL is forcing tight spaces). But White is the better pass pro back and a better creator in space.”
lol
Biggs, I looked but he doesn’t mention street clothes
Naturally, the liquored up litigator began his spam posting.
If it wasn’t for that lunatic, this thread would only be about two pages instead of eleven.
Biggs, just to highlight how dishonest you are. This thread was dead until you bumped it
Check in after Week 1: Rachaad White is the starting RB.
Check in after Week 2: Rachaad White is the starting RB.
Thats on page 7
Naturally, the liquored up litigator began his spam posting.
If it wasn’t for that lunatic, this thread would only be about two pages instead of eleven.
No shit.
I’ll own my part, as I’ve really tried to make an effort to not engage with him anymore.
Remember when the Cove existed, he only posted there.
Ahh…the good ol’ days.
Incorrect, because the personnel and scheme has changed. we have a whole new LG, C, and RT (backup)Thanks for the explanation for the 4 play sample size.
The relevant sample size is not 4.
The sample size is in excess of 400 runs, I think?
Irving should get more runs (something I suggested in the preseason might happen ) because White was something like a 3.6 ypc runner before this season and is currently 2.1. Thats over 400 runs . .. across multiple offenses and coaches. He's great in the passing game but his CAREER so far has him as one of the LEAST efficient runners in the NFL
It is WHITE's sample size that says they should give more to Irving . . a point made by Bowles and Coen. . . because its basic common sense, even if it was a pretty unpopular question (lol) in the preseason.
As far as I can see, no one is overhyping IRVING, some are over hyping WHITE. I want nothing more than for White to turn that around.
Maybe he will in attempts 450 to 500?
:-)
And everything your saying about White ties into the main problem is the OL just hasn't been very good since he got here. So what your trying to indicate isn't hitting home, and if that was the case Bucky would be the STARTER.
Yeah he quoted me so naturally I responded. Guy must have some sort of ego has to protect.Naturally, the liquored up litigator began his spam posting.
If it wasn’t for that lunatic, this thread would only be about two pages instead of eleven.
No shit.
I’ll own my part, as I’ve really tried to make an effort to not engage with him anymore.
Remember when the Cove existed, he only posted there.
Ahh…the good ol’ days.
Incorrect, because the personnel and scheme has changed. we have a whole new LG, C, and RT (backup)Thanks for the explanation for the 4 play sample size.
The relevant sample size is not 4.
The sample size is in excess of 400 runs, I think?
Irving should get more runs (something I suggested in the preseason might happen ) because White was something like a 3.6 ypc runner before this season and is currently 2.1. Thats over 400 runs . .. across multiple offenses and coaches. He's great in the passing game but his CAREER so far has him as one of the LEAST efficient runners in the NFL
It is WHITE's sample size that says they should give more to Irving . . a point made by Bowles and Coen. . . because its basic common sense, even if it was a pretty unpopular question (lol) in the preseason.
As far as I can see, no one is overhyping IRVING, some are over hyping WHITE. I want nothing more than for White to turn that around.
Maybe he will in attempts 450 to 500?
:-)
And everything your saying about White ties into the main problem is the OL just hasn't been very good since he got here. So what your trying to indicate isn't hitting home, and if that was the case Bucky would be the STARTER.
Well, to each their own but earlier you credit DH's post of JQ a context, right?
DH omitted the end where JQ actually AGREES with my positionS (plural) and JQ is one of the reasons I suggested White might slide. Its all here, but added by me. This was JQ's conclusion:
1. Irving is the better runner and BECAUSE quicker feet and better in tight spaces (my point twice in this thread)
2. the Bucs need both
Btw, Bucky is NOT the starter because White is better in the passing game and pass pro AND because everyone recognizes the point JQ was actually making in that thread: the real problem is the O-line
