The Bucs just played a game in which they gained 183 total yards of offense. They stink with and without Freeman just the same.
This on so many levels. Huge disappointment of a season.
I actually agree that we're a couple of pieces away on defense from being dominant- a stud pass rusher and another corner. If we could get 2 stud pass rushers, we could probably excel with our current corners. Add these pieces and it's possible this defense could come close to our glory years. throw in the fact that goldson should have reduced roughing calls and the D encourages me.I agree that our offense needs help, but the topic was defense.
I try not to chime in on this board too often or my head explodes, but I am somewhat surprised that this has turned into a 5 page thread. Whether you like Schiano, Sheridan or Sullivan as a coach, I think the hatred has made some, not all, a little jaded. Even if you feel this is a poorly coached defense, I think most would agree, if this defense was on the field last year, it would have been a playoff team. They were awful...historically awful in 2012. The coaching seems to have made Lavonte David a DPOY candidate. And McCoy has improved over last season. PFF focus has Revis as the NFL's best corner and so on. Do I like all the stunts? Hell no? The constant blitzing? Nope. But on Monday Night Football last week, Gruden was raving about the Ravens stunts and pressure on Stafford.I am not saying Sheridan is great or terrible, or Schiano is the coach of a future Super Bowl team. I have no idea and truthfully none of us do. Even if you want both gone, I think most would say the defense is drastically improved over last year and is primed to be good for a long time. Especially if they add a couple pieces, just like coach said. Who know maybe they are a Top 5 defense if someone else was coaching them. But some credit should be given to take the defense from 29th to 13th with a below average pass rush from the defensive ends.I know I have set myself up, and I should probably delete this before posting, but after a couple glasses of Keel and Curley wine (shameless plug) tonight I am feeling a little brave. I will hate myself in the morning I am sure. But hopefully we can avoid the name calling and have a real back and forth.
I try not to chime in on this board too often or my head explodes, but I am somewhat surprised that this has turned into a 5 page thread. Whether you like Schiano, Sheridan or Sullivan as a coach, I think the hatred has made some, not all, a little jaded. Even if you feel this is a poorly coached defense, I think most would agree, if this defense was on the field last year, it would have been a playoff team. They were awful...historically awful in 2012. The coaching seems to have made Lavonte David a DPOY candidate. And McCoy has improved over last season. PFF focus has Revis as the NFL's best corner and so on. Do I like all the stunts? Hell no? The constant blitzing? Nope. But on Monday Night Football last week, Gruden was raving about the Ravens stunts and pressure on Stafford.I am not saying Sheridan is great or terrible, or Schiano is the coach of a future Super Bowl team. I have no idea and truthfully none of us do. Even if you want both gone, I think most would say the defense is drastically improved over last year and is primed to be good for a long time. Especially if they add a couple pieces, just like coach said. Who know maybe they are a Top 5 defense if someone else was coaching them. But some credit should be given to take the defense from 29th to 13th with a below average pass rush from the defensive ends.I know I have set myself up, and I should probably delete this before posting, but after a couple glasses of Keel and Curley wine (shameless plug) tonight I am feeling a little brave. I will hate myself in the morning I am sure. But hopefully we can avoid the name calling and have a real back and forth.
Well, the defense definitely should have improved from last year. Our biggest weakness last year was the secondary and we added 2 All Pro's and spent our first draft pick on a CB over the off-season. This defense is loaded with talent and arguably has a top 3 player at each level of the defense. The defense should be one of the best units in the league and while it has improved, it still isn't even top 10.
More than not top 10 it still has all sorts of coaching problems. Yes the stunts are stupid. There is also the ongoing issues with mobile QBs that haven't been corrected. Lot of flags as well. Bigger thing is does this defense really scare anyone? It is good but do the saints think OMG not the Bucs defense!
More than not top 10 it still has all sorts of coaching problems. Yes the stunts are stupid. There is also the ongoing issues with mobile QBs that haven't been corrected. Lot of flags as well. Bigger thing is does this defense really scare anyone? It is good but do the saints think OMG not the Bucs defense!
I agree, no team is "fearing" Tampa Bay's defense.It was evident from the first play last week that the SF defense had a swagger and confidence that was impressive. But it also wasn't a defense built overnight. And Schiano critics can say, they didn't get that way until Harbaugh got there, and that is a legitimate argument. But there is a solid foundation. Add a legit veteran pass rusher and that will help. The Bucs aren't quite confident they are great yet. I saw the 79 defense and they knew they were great. Most of us saw the Dungy defenses grow and by the Super Bowl season they also knew how great they were. I have no idea if this staff can get them there but there are closer than most thought they would be.As far as adding two All-Pros that is true, but Revis isn't even 100% and Goldson is still learning to play within the new NFL rules. They will still get better I believe. I'm just saying I don't disagree with coach – there is potential to be that dominant defense. I have talked with enough people off the record and they know the pass rush isn't nearly good enough, they would love to just send four. That would allow the secondary to be even better.If you go back and read my Foster story from last week both he and David and Watson all agreed this is a very complicated defense. My only complaint is perhaps they have overcomplicated it. I think there are some smart guys on the defense but they aren't loaded with Stanford and Harvard grads. And few if any played in a college defense that has the responsibilities they are required on each play. Some players off the record have told me, as Gerald has said, that they just want to go play. Hopefully the staff will listen to the guys if they are back next year.
The problem with your take IMO, is that it isn't Schiano making this defense great. Schiano has amassed talent there, to be certain. The problem is he can't seem to leverage it. If having elite guys all over the place is what it takes to be successful, then you aren't much of a coach. You're just a recruiter
Couple of pieces = Head Coach and Defensive Coordinator.
They were awful...historically awful in 2012. The coaching seems to have made Lavonte David a DPOY candidate. And McCoy has improved over last season. PFF focus has Revis as the NFL's best corner and so on.
They were historically awful....because of bad coaching. McCoy isn't any better this year than last. He's playing at a pro bowl level again though. The difference is we have Clayborn back, Spence next to him, and Revis & Goldson in the secondary. The coaching isn't making David great, David is just great. He is doing exactly what he did in college under his last coaching staff. He and Barron are in their 2nd year and predictably playing better though. Revis is not rated as one of the best CB because of Schiano or Sheridan. I promise you that much. I disagree with your point of view Mark. I think we have so much talent and veteran leadership on this defense that we still are in the middle of the pack despite terrible coaching. You bring in a better HC/DC combo and this same exact roster could be a top 5 defense imo.
Without Freeman's hot streak we would have won 3-4 games last year too.QB is a huge part of the problem but so is OL. I don't want to spend any more decades looking for a franchise QB with a crap OL. It usually doesn't work out well trying that.
They were awful...historically awful in 2012. The coaching seems to have made Lavonte David a DPOY candidate. And McCoy has improved over last season. PFF focus has Revis as the NFL's best corner and so on.
They were historically awful....because of bad coaching. McCoy isn't any better this year than last. He's playing at a pro bowl level again though. The difference is we have Clayborn back, Spence next to him, and Revis & Goldson in the secondary. The coaching isn't making David great, David is just great. He is doing exactly what he did in college under his last coaching staff. He and Barron are in their 2nd year and predictably playing better though. Revis is not rated as one of the best CB because of Schiano or Sheridan. I promise you that much. I disagree with your point of view Mark. I think we have so much talent and veteran leadership on this defense that we still are in the middle of the pack despite terrible coaching. You bring in a better HC/DC combo and this same exact roster could be a top 5 defense imo.
You make good points about the talent round McCoy, but I respectfully disagree that that he isn't better. It isn't even a question that he has really elevated his game even more this season. It is night and day. He had a terrible game at Carolina, but other than that he has played much better than last season.To say David or McCoy or Revis are great despite of the coaches isn't fair. You can't tell me you believe if there were no coaches or game plans and 11 guys got together for three hours on Sunday that they would see the same results. I get that you don't like them, but please tell me why you think they are terrible. I hope it is more from you watching film and seeing it, as opposed to just listening to guys on the radio or reading critics.Scheme has to be executed. You can't pin it all on coaches. Go back and look at the third and 12 that Kap escaped pressure on in that long fourth Q drive. The Bucs blitzed Tandy from the right side. McCoy got a great jump and immediately flushed Kap to the left. Bowers got a good up field push, but had contain. Kap got away from McCoy, around Bowers with McCoy breathing down his neck towards the sideline then just before going out of bounds slung the ball to an open receiver just past the sticks for the first down and essentially the game was over. But on the back end Leonard Johnson totally loses sight of the receiver as he peaks inside to a man who is covered. He leaves way too much space between himself and the sideline boundary. I reviewed that play 20 times on Tuesday and I saw Revis chewing out LJ, Goldson shaking his head and McCoy slapping the ground after the completion. JDoub that is the players. The call and the scheme was perfect. The players didn't execute. And that is a big part of the defensive issues. Could the staff be better? No doubt, but fans, and myself at times, tend to blame the coaches when a play or call doesn't work, but if Bowers and LJ do their job it is fourth down and who knows what happens.
Without Freeman's hot streak we would have won 3-4 games last year too.QB is a huge part of the problem but so is OL. I don't want to spend any more decades looking for a franchise QB with a crap OL. It usually doesn't work out well trying that.
GA I agree. Manning is Manning partly because he had a great OL and a clean pocket in Indy all those years. While I personally would like to see a QB with more mobility, if he isn't mobile you sure as hell better protect the guy. The offensive line deserves a huge part of the blame in my opinion this season.If you can't protect, or run the ball, there is no way any QB in the league is going to light it up and put many points on the board with the lack of playmakers on offense.
Nicks has not played up to his previous standard since he put on a Bucs uniform. He was damaged goods the day he signed.
Quite simply the odds are he was never that good. He was a good player on a great offense that made people think he was a great player. He is in a large degree the offensive version of Goldson a player who is made to look better because of the mass of talent around him.
This isn't true. Nicks was a monster before the injuries. He wasn't Jermon Bushrod.
His presence never made our offense measurably better. He was never a monster here. Notice that NOLA hasn't missed a beat adding Grubbs?
Grubbs is a good player on his own merit, too.And no Guard by himself is going to make any offense measurable better. That's an asinine thing to say, frankly.
I try not to chime in on this board too often or my head explodes, but I am somewhat surprised that this has turned into a 5 page thread. Whether you like Schiano, Sheridan or Sullivan as a coach, I think the hatred has made some, not all, a little jaded. Even if you feel this is a poorly coached defense, I think most would agree, if this defense was on the field last year, it would have been a playoff team. They were awful...historically awful in 2012. The coaching seems to have made Lavonte David a DPOY candidate. And McCoy has improved over last season. PFF focus has Revis as the NFL's best corner and so on. Do I like all the stunts? Hell no? The constant blitzing? Nope. But on Monday Night Football last week, Gruden was raving about the Ravens stunts and pressure on Stafford.I am not saying Sheridan is great or terrible, or Schiano is the coach of a future Super Bowl team. I have no idea and truthfully none of us do. Even if you want both gone, I think most would say the defense is drastically improved over last year and is primed to be good for a long time. Especially if they add a couple pieces, just like coach said. Who know maybe they are a Top 5 defense if someone else was coaching them. But some credit should be given to take the defense from 29th to 13th with a below average pass rush from the defensive ends.I know I have set myself up, and I should probably delete this before posting, but after a couple glasses of Keel and Curley wine (shameless plug) tonight I am feeling a little brave. I will hate myself in the morning I am sure. But hopefully we can avoid the name calling and have a real back and forth.
Well, the defense definitely should have improved from last year. Our biggest weakness last year was the secondary and we added 2 All Pro's and spent our first draft pick on a CB over the off-season. This defense is loaded with talent and arguably has a top 3 player at each level of the defense. The defense should be one of the best units in the league and while it has improved, it still isn't even top 10.
Valid points, but it is 13th from 29th, people constantly complain about Banks who has played like a rookie at times, Revis is still not 100 percent and Goldson has missed essentially three of the 14 games so far. And they are doing it without any consistency from a pass rush. Trust me I am not convinced that Sheridan or Schiano can win it all, but I still say they deserve some credit. The fact that this is now a 6 page thread essentially hammering the 13th ranked defense while the Bucs offense is ranked dead last, is a little mind boggling to me.
I'm wondering... if 2012 defense was historically bad, what was 2011? At least they fixed the run defense, whose #1 ranking was skewed by teams just shredding the pass defense. That 2011 front couldn't stay on their feet.
