Hell, it doesn't work with Eli Manning either so I guess I should change the title but I digress.Next time you get a chance, google all 22 breakdown of Peyton Manning or Tom Brady and spend a few minutes browsing. I did this as yesterday it snowed hard here in sunny NY and had a very slow day. What you'll find is that these offenses are very QB friendly. They run many 3wr, 1 TE and 1 RB sets. They run a lot of 4 and 5 WR sets. What does this do? It gives those QBs many options and many matchups. There are a few option type routes that Welker is very good at and are generally effective as he can create space on a 3rd CB very frequently. My overall point is this offenses create clean and quick reads for their QBs. They see the match ups across the board and can quickly determine after the snap if the slant is open, if the deep out is open, if the TE seam route is open. Those are the routes and it's creates a clean read that QB and WR both know pre and post snap.Now, what does Sullivan's offense do? Well it's a vertical passing game which often times has two WR, 1 TE, a FB and RB in an I formation of some sort. We run very little 4 or 5 receiver sets, maybe because we don't have the personnel and maybe not. The offense that sully runs is very complex with the QB and WR making "on the fly adjustments" very often. This is why we see Vjax run a curl and Glennon throw an in route or we see TU run a post and Glennon throw a seam. Both QB and WR have to make the same read on every play. Now bigger picture here. What does this type of offense do? It creates very muddied reads that take longer to become obvious if the WR is open. So the route is a 10 yard route that could be an inbreaking route, an outbreaking route or a curl pattern. We're talking about literally 1.5-2.0 seconds of Glennon reading the defense figuring out what the pattern will be before he even figures out if Vjax is going to actually be open. Combine that with the fact that Sully likes to Max protect on occasion and on occasion literally two people running routes and you have a shit storm of slow developing football plays.It's not a coincidence that he looked so much better in the two minute drill. Why? Because it's my estimation that the routes are not adjustment routes and that WR1 runs and out WR2 runs a seam, TE runs a post and RB does a 5 yard curl. Before the snap, much like Manning and Brady, Mike can look at the defense, identify cover 2 vs cover 3 vs man and have an idea of what routes will be covered and what routes won't. This speeds up his reads and progressions 10 fold, not to mention the WR knows the route being run and is able to run it faster without slowing to read the defense. It's like running to a stop sign then going in the direction the arrow points, it's much faster if you know the arrow is pointed left before you even start running. Same thing with Mike, if he sees a cover 2 and knows without a doubt what the patterns are, he can check his progression quickly to ensure the right presnap read was right then move to his most likely open pattern. That doesn't happen with Sully's offense because it takes so much longer to develop long patterns that may or may not change.I believe one of our WRs commented last year about us running the same play over and over again but it could look 1,000 different ways based on how the defense adjusts to it. That doesn't make for easy, quick or clean reads by a QB, especially a rookie QB. I can't say it enough, the best passing games across the NFL create reads that are clean (meaning if the guy is open the QB knows it quickly) with short or intermediate routes. Peyton Manning has a very weak arm but having the best year of his career. Quick routes, get to ball into your receivers hands and let them make a play. Sitting in the pocket for 3.5 seconds to let a 15 yard out develop isn't a way to consistently move the football and with our o-line it gets worse. The two minute drill is what should be done. Quick reads that allow Glennon to read the defense and get the ball out of his hand quickly with the receiver having a chance to make someone miss. Make the game easy for Mike. There is so much more I want to say but I can't take it anymore. This offense is fundamentally flawed for the speed of the NFL today. Longer routes that cause indecision among QB and WR should not be used anywhere. Quick developing routes that can be easily identified are what is needed. Instead of we mike starring down his receivers because he's unsure of what route is going to be run, in the mean time he misses' TU running uncoverd up the field because the first read on VJax takes way to long to develop.
There is nothing about a 3 WR set that makes it more friendly than a 2 WR. Plenty of offenses run with 2 wide and still make the QB look good. A lot of our problem is gonna be philosophical but there is also this reality when we go to 3 WR we do not have a matchup edge over most teams 3rd CB. God help us when we get to our 4th WR. The offense is designed to be more effective than efficient. I don't think you can consistently look good in this scheme but at the same time this scheme isn't so bad it demands that you are 32nd in offense. That is about the players and the QB right now.
It's not a coincidence that he looked so much better in the two minute drill. Why? Because it's my estimation that the routes are not adjustment routes and that WR1 runs and out WR2 runs a seam, TE runs a post and RB does a 5 yard curl. Before the snap, much like Manning and Brady, Mike can look at the defense, identify cover 2 vs cover 3 vs man and have an idea of what routes will be covered and what routes won't. This speeds up his reads and progressions 10 fold, not to mention the WR knows the route being run and is able to run it faster without slowing to read the defense. It's like running to a stop sign then going in the direction the arrow points, it's much faster if you know the arrow is pointed left before you even start running. Same thing with Mike, if he sees a cover 2 and knows without a doubt what the patterns are, he can check his progression quickly to ensure the right presnap read was right then move to his most likely open pattern. That doesn't happen with Sully's offense because it takes so much longer to develop long patterns that may or may not change..
interesting point
There is nothing about a 3 WR set that makes it more friendly than a 2 WR. Plenty of offenses run with 2 wide and still make the QB look good.
More to the point is the type of routes they are running and fewer options for Glennon.
It's not a coincidence that he looked so much better in the two minute drill. Why? Because it's my estimation that the routes are not adjustment routes and that WR1 runs and out WR2 runs a seam, TE runs a post and RB does a 5 yard curl. Before the snap, much like Manning and Brady, Mike can look at the defense, identify cover 2 vs cover 3 vs man and have an idea of what routes will be covered and what routes won't. This speeds up his reads and progressions 10 fold, not to mention the WR knows the route being run and is able to run it faster without slowing to read the defense. It's like running to a stop sign then going in the direction the arrow points, it's much faster if you know the arrow is pointed left before you even start running. Same thing with Mike, if he sees a cover 2 and knows without a doubt what the patterns are, he can check his progression quickly to ensure the right presnap read was right then move to his most likely open pattern. That doesn't happen with Sully's offense because it takes so much longer to develop long patterns that may or may not change..
interesting point
Totally agree
Thanks
Excellent post, BuCNY!! Sadly, Schiano is digging the same hole for himself Dungy did. I like the idea of burning up clock with the run game, but Schiano doesn't seem to understand a QB with the skill to recognize D's and the arm to complete ANY pass on the field can accomplish the same thing. Amazingly, Mike Shula, Dungy's old OC, has adapted to mixing run and quick-pass in Carolina, with impressive results...
If Sullivan's boss won't allow him to run hurry up offense when nothing else is working, I find it impossible to critique Sullivan's work.Schiano's comments have completely exonerated Sullivan in my book.Can em all. Baby and bath water is all muckedy muck.
If Sullivan's boss won't allow him to run hurry up offense when nothing else is working, I find it impossible to critique Sullivan's work.Schiano's comments have completely exonerated Sullivan in my book.Can em all. Baby and bath water is all muckedy muck.
The great coaches understood they needed to DELEGATE. Heck, even Lombardi in the '60's figured that out. He ran the offense, and was even open to input from his vets, in the run and the pass. He let his DC run the defense. Shula was among the most flexible at building an offense AROUND THE TALENT HE HAD. Sandwiched between HOF QB's Unitas and Marino, he had created one of the most dominant run games in NFL history. And he let his DC run the defense...
If Sullivan's boss won't allow him to run hurry up offense when nothing else is working, I find it impossible to critique Sullivan's work.Schiano's comments have completely exonerated Sullivan in my book.Can em all. Baby and bath water is all muckedy muck.
That's fair. Have to play to Glennon's strengths and when we do the offense looks, dare I say it, effective.
I agree with what you are saying BucNY. The problem I have is figuring out where the blame falls. Is Sully just a puppet to Schiano, or does Schiano only give Sully guidlines to work within? With our less than stellar WR core I would think quick routes would be easier for them to learn and execute. How many of those bad throws by Glennon were a bad read by him or the reciever but would have been spot on had the reciever gone where he thought they were gonna?Its the same with the oline. Is our oline lousy because of Schiano, Sully, Bostad, lack of talent, or are we just asking them to block too long in these long developing routes? Stuff like this is why I want to move on from Schiano. Not because I think he has hooves and horns, not because I blame him for stuff like MRSA or injuries, I blame him for stuff like this. We finally made a good adjustment and looked to be coming back against the niners only to change it back when the win looked possible.
I agree with what you are saying BucNY. The problem I have is figuring out where the blame falls. Is Sully just a puppet to Schiano, or does Schiano only give Sully guidlines to work within? With our less than stellar WR core I would think quick routes would be easier for them to learn and execute. How many of those bad throws by Glennon were a bad read by him or the reciever but would have been spot on had the reciever gone where he thought they were gonna?Its the same with the oline. Is our oline lousy because of Schiano, Sully, Bostad, lack of talent, or are we just asking them to block too long in these long developing routes? Stuff like this is why I want to move on from Schiano. Not because I think he has hooves and horns, not because I blame him for stuff like MRSA or injuries, I blame him for stuff like this. We finally made a good adjustment and looked to be coming back against the niners only to change it back when the win looked possible.
good post
Thanks for the good discussion guys, You know I believe Sully's offense can be good if we can run the ball and pass protect for the full 3 seconds very often. We can't currently do that against good teams. I refuse to believe that its all on Mike Glennon and I refuse to believe that he's so erratic that he posts a perfect passer rating for 15 minutes in between periods of dreadful looking play. Damn, it's just so frustrating to watch this team and feel like we have the talent but is being held back by something. I think that something is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It seemed so obvious that it shouldn't even be asked but someone did ask it after the game on Sunday and Schiano quite clearly said he personally didn't want to run the hurry up because that isn't what we do. Well it was the only thing that had even remotely worked. We had something in the range of 50 yards minus those two drives. If that doesn't wake you up to really think critically about what we're doing schematically and a possible change nothing will. I've gone on the record this week as no longer supporting Schiano as our HC. During the wins I was excited, not by the wins, but by the notion that this staff realized they needed to adapt to win and I thought we were doing that. Recent comments by Schiano make it impossible not to realize we'll do things his way as long as he's here even if it isn't the best or easiest way to win. I can say it's a sad day, not really though, for me. As i was his biggest and one of his few supporters when we first hired him. At this point, i'd rather see him go.
I agree with what you are saying BucNY. The problem I have is figuring out where the blame falls. Is Sully just a puppet to Schiano, or does Schiano only give Sully guidlines to work within? With our less than stellar WR core I would think quick routes would be easier for them to learn and execute. How many of those bad throws by Glennon were a bad read by him or the reciever but would have been spot on had the reciever gone where he thought they were gonna?Its the same with the oline. Is our oline lousy because of Schiano, Sully, Bostad, lack of talent, or are we just asking them to block too long in these long developing routes? Stuff like this is why I want to move on from Schiano. Not because I think he has hooves and horns, not because I blame him for stuff like MRSA or injuries, I blame him for stuff like this. We finally made a good adjustment and looked to be coming back against the niners only to change it back when the win looked possible.
According to PR, Schiano doesn't call the plays and only rarely asks for a specific call. If that is true, then play calling is squarely on Sully. And play calling is awful. Now, during installation, I'm sure there is a focus Rutgers wants and a plan to focus on certain things, so he is definitely on the hook for some of the offensive issues. But the inconsistencies are so glaring and the play calling so bad, I have to come to the conlusion that sully is more of the issue. You work with a bad philosophy (Schiano) a bad scheme (Sully) a bad focus within that scheme (both of them) and bad play calling (sully). Mix that in with injuries, a bad OL, a horrible QB, then a rookie QB, and you have the Tampa Bay offense.
Interesting breakdown on Glennon from SF game.. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/12/18/5223780/nfl-breakdown-mike-glennon-eddie-lacy-leveon-bell-buccaneers-steelers
