So if a PLAYER puts words on its helmet, a team puts words in the endzone, it's the NFL being woke.
If a handful of players take a knee, it's the NFL being woke.
If the NFL allows teams to promote and honor Charlie Kirk's death, then it's individual liberty.
If Trump goes on a live broadcast and talks through an entire third quarter about politics, you all just keep ignoring it...
Do I have that right?
No, you are still misunderstanding. The NFL (league office) mandated the Social Justice messaging throughout the league in 2020..
As part of the NFL's ongoing commitment to social justice programs, the messages "It Takes All of Us" and "End Racism" will be stenciled on all end zone borders for home openers, the league office informed clubs on Monday in a memo obtained by ESPN.
The two messages of inclusion, which will be stenciled on opposite end zones during kickoff week, are key elements of the league's broader, multifaceted rollout intended to highlight efforts to support diversity and inclusion when the new season begins.
The end zone messages demonstrate "how football and the NFL brings people together to work as one and use our example and our actions to help conquer racism," the memo said.
As previously reported, a recorded performance of "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing," traditionally known as the Black national anthem, will be featured in pregame ceremonies. On stadium video screens, montages of the social justice work of NFL players and clubs will accompany the song. What's more, according to the memo, the NFL has "engaged the James Weldon Johnson Foundation (the song's author) and the NAACP to work with us to inform and educate fans about the historical significance of the song during the weeks leading up to kickoff, and will utilize the NFL's owned and operated channels to share as broadly as possible."
Individual players decide whether to use a decal on their helmet or not, this is not league mandated or done by the NFL office.
Individual teams decided whether to honor Charlie Kirk or not, this was not league mandated or done by the NFL office.
And again the NFL being "woke" is comical.
I can see how that could happen if you aren't aware of the facts regarding the NFL's DEI policies and Social Justice messaging. These things are certainly included in the concept of wokeness, are they not?
Incorrect-ish..they set precedent
The NFL said it was “the league’s decision” to hold a moment of silence for Charlie Kirk ahead of Thursday night’s game between the Washington Commanders and Green Bay Packers.
It’s up to the clubs whether or not they will hold moments of silence during the Week 2 games on Sunday, the league said in a statement Friday.
And you still haven't acknowledged that Trump spent an entire third quarter of a game talking politics...
Or the fact that players got black balled by teams (collectively the owners) for taking a knee.
Not you biggs, (you're conflating what you've said vs what other said that I'm responding to) but others told me that taking a knee and or choosing to put words on your helmet as bland and benign as "end racism" by a PLAYER as the league being woke.
Present day: is the NFL woke right now.
Not, was it woke or has it been woke (that's a different debate)...
When I watch the NFL there's nothing woke about it. There's Trump on TV. I haven't seen the black national anthem (but I never watch that stuff). No mention of George Floyd. No mention of social justice. Charlie Kirk memorial.
The case to build that the NFL is currently woke is extremely weak
was not fired after 1 year because of political climate,
Or, because he got a five year deal and was not responsible for 2022 with out his own coaches etc. I think Arians is also a VP so there is no way Bowles was getting fired or blamed for 2022 when Arians is there because that would have meant Arians set him up for failure, right?
And it turned out to be the right choice, correct? In 2023 he hires Canales and was apparently instrumental in bringing Mayfield here.
Bowles can be a non-SB winning HC and still be a revered coach inside OBP. That's Dungy, right? So far Bowles has kept the Bucs relevant for several years when the expectation inside OBP was the opposite (Trask draft pick). That doesn't mean his job is safe, but it does highlight the likely disconnect between fans "lamenting" that we might only win our fifth div title and may bow out of the playoffs early. As you mention often, we are talking about owners who went through a lost decade after their prior SB win.
Owners who only need to look across the division and see 3 win Raheem Morris with their #1 free agent QB coming off the bench while their 1st round pick is out.
Or, the Giants firing their HC and going with now back up Famous Jameis.
The Bucs are doing great, but to some fans they are "mired in mediocrity."
Bowles turned out to be a good choice indeed.
Now many will argue that he was carried by Mayfield and offensive and yadda yadda yadda...but the results speak for themselves.
Would suggest most on this board wanted him fired last year if you recall yet you and I were suggesting otherwise. Not so much that we "Love Todd" but more so results speak for themselves.
i thought it was a bit extreme to extend him summer time and not let the season play out. For example, if the wheels fall off and we miss playoffs, we really all buying the injury excuse?
If we do what we are all banking on us to do, recover from midseason losing streak and win another division, i think they would have ended up extending Bowles anyway
the question becomes is when do expectations become raised and Bucs performance held to a higher standard....but i am sure Buffalo, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh have been asking those same exact questions about their respective head coaches for a few years now.
Ok lets me reframe. If you make any decision that is considered "woke" only because of the political climate then it's a business decision.
We are really stretching the word "woke" as some all encompassing word to mean anything you don't like that you perceive anyone left of you to value.
You can criticize a hire for being based on skin color if that hire wasn't qualified to begin and there was another reasonable + better option which would allow you to reasonably infer race played a role.
Bowles as a hire I didn't agree with nor do I agree with his extension. But the higher itself is perfectly reasonable. He had prior experience, he keeps continuity, he's a leader, and the players love him.
Which non-minority did we consider over him?
Lefty was fired. He was black. Should I say that was racist? That's how it sounds when you call a hire woke.
yeah to be clear, Bowles was the only reasonable hire at that time given Arians retirement so late in the offseason. And i agree with you, i'm not a fan of defensive minded head coaches in today's NFL. New England, Seattle, and Buffalo appear to be the anomalies, but take a look at the other good teams - Denver, Philadelphia, Los Angeles (x2), Indianapolis, Chicago, Green Bay, San Francisco, Detroit, Jacksonville, Kansas City - all offensive minded head coaches.
It can certainly work with a defensive head coach as Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Tampa Bay have shown longevity wise but when it comes to developing a QB or winning the Superbowl; hell the results don't lie.
Bill Belichick was the last defensive minded head coach to win it all and that was back during the 2018 season. And the last defensive head coach without the GOAT to win it all was Pete Carroll back in the 2013 season.
Bowles getting the job was more so on Arian's desire which race did play a part (i mean per Arian's paving the way, unless that's just speculation, thought he mentioned as such on Rich Eisen show) but in any event, was the right choice given our "options" at that time.
In terms of not agreeing with the extension, i agree it shouldn't have happened in the summer, but likely assuming this plays out as a one and done division winning playoff exit, given the injuries especially, i think Bowles would have gotten extended anyway in January.
the question becomes how do we bridge your expectations for this team versus Bucs ownership because they appear to be two different things entirely. I think Bowles is safe for 2026 and 2027 seasons as well. Would put the odds of Bowles being our head coach for 2026 season at 99%. Always leave 1% for something unforeseen god forbid. Then worse case scenario Bucs miss playoffs next year, at that point Bowles would have been with us 5 seasons and likely gets "one mulligan" so 2027 being the make or break year with them deciding to either extend or "promote out of a head coaching job" after the 2027 season. He wont be a lame duck in the 2028 season.
Incorrect-ish..they set precedent
The NFL said it was “the league’s decision” to hold a moment of silence for Charlie Kirk ahead of Thursday night’s game between the Washington Commanders and Green Bay Packers.
It’s up to the clubs whether or not they will hold moments of silence during the Week 2 games on Sunday, the league said in a statement Friday.
OK...you do see how one moment of silence while allowing the rest of the organizations in their league to do what they want is quite different than mandating things from the league office - like they did in 2020, yes?
And you still haven't acknowledged that Trump spent an entire third quarter of a game talking politics...
I'm not acknowledging it because one telecast had Trump in their booth for one quarter doesn't really apply to what we are discussing, which is league mandating policies like DEI and Social Justice messaging.
When I watch the NFL there's nothing woke about it. There's Trump on TV. I haven't seen the black national anthem (but I never watch that stuff). No mention of George Floyd. No mention of social justice. Charlie Kirk memorial.
Respectfully, just because you haven't seen or known or heard about the DEI or Social Justice stuff doesn't mean it's not there. It is. I've shown it to you.
I'm not denying Trump was on a telecast in the booth. I'm not denying some teams honored Kirk. I know that stuff happened. I also know that none of it was mandated by the league to happen league-wide, unlike the DEI and Social Justice stuff. This is something that you still haven't acknowledged, and these are NFL policies which fall in the woke category. Care to change that?
The case to build that the NFL is currently woke is extremely weak
That doesn't appear to be the case. But I've said my piece. You can have the last word and we will agree to disagree.
You are probably and unfortunately right that the glazers won't fire him unless we miss the playoffs in next few seasons. If we missed it this year id fire him and definitely deserve it. Schedule is tough in middle of season but it eases up and we should still make the playoffs. We may make a run then if we're healthy and we run into some luck too. They're capable of making some timely plays. Glazers won't fire him this year unless we completely bomb.
the question becomes how do we bridge your expectations for this team versus Bucs ownership because they appear to be two different things entirely
I dont think that is possible.
Since 2000 isn't it only the Chiefs and the Patriots with 3 Super Bowls?
Those franchises are considered dynasties by many and each had the generations best QB. The Patriots have something going this season but were pretty crappy for most of the last 4 or 5. We won one and are in the playoff since, but most hardcore fans wash any credit for that with "bad division" and even the Super Bowl is treated as a sort of rented Super Bowl (it was just Brady). Fans seem tougher on their own team than most.
Maybe negativity is just easier. 5-1 we are "super Bowl bound." Lose a couple and its time to clean house, fire the HC and everyone else . . . even though we are roughly where most predicted before the season when the team was healthy
You are probably and unfortunately right that the glazers won't fire him unless we miss the playoffs in next few seasons. If we missed it this year id fire him and definitely deserve it. Schedule is tough in middle of season but it eases up and we should still make the playoffs. We may make a run then if we're healthy and we run into some luck too. They're capable of making some timely plays. Glazers won't fire him this year unless we completely bomb.
yeah even with the injuries, if these miss the playoffs this year, with how shit the division is, that would be an inditement on Bowles
BUT....given the injuries, they will use that as an excuse no doubt and Bowles gets a pass...and quite frankly, probably rightfully so given they just though enough of him to extend him.
I'd put it like this as likely scenarios, let's assume worst case and no playoff wins.
Scenario 1 - Status Quo
2025 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round (injury bug excuse)
2026 season - Bucs miss playoffs, chalk it up to a down year, Bowles produced playoff squad in first 4 seasons with team.
2027 season - Make or break year as 2028 season would be last year of contact.
- Bucs return to playoffs and Bowles has a coin flip chance to get extended. Will depend on Bucs management expectations but bouncing back will help him
- Bucs miss playoffs which would be second season in a row and he's likely terminated prior to 2028 season.
Scenario 2 - Wheels Fall off
2025 season - we somehow miss the playoffs this year. Injury bug excuse
2026 season - we do even worse and miss playoffs next year. Bowles is most likely fired
Scenario 3 - likely Scenario
2025 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round (injury bug excuse)
2026 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round. Management likely seeing a pattern and expectations rise.
2027 season - Make or break year as 2028 season would be last year of contact. What is management's expectations this year?
- Bucs make playoffs and win a playoff game, think they are only a few pieces away - Bowles is extended
- Bucs make playoffs and lose in first round again, likely a coin flip NOT in Bowles favor of him getting extension. They may decide it's time for a change but maybe not. a coin flip.
- Bucs miss playoffs, and likely view it as a step in the wrong direction even though it's his only year of not making playoffs. Again, likely a coin flip and even more so NOT in his favor
One thing is for certain, unless Bucs end up missing playoffs which would likely take the Bucs to only win 2 games from here on out, which my goodness, i dont see that happening, it's hard to imagine Bowles not being our coach for 2026 season...and as you can see by my scenarios....at this rate, he's likely to earn another extension than he is to get fired.
You are probably and unfortunately right that the glazers won't fire him unless we miss the playoffs in next few seasons. If we missed it this year id fire him and definitely deserve it. Schedule is tough in middle of season but it eases up and we should still make the playoffs. We may make a run then if we're healthy and we run into some luck too. They're capable of making some timely plays. Glazers won't fire him this year unless we completely bomb.
yeah even with the injuries, if these miss the playoffs this year, with how shit the division is, that would be an inditement on Bowles
BUT....given the injuries, they will use that as an excuse no doubt and Bowles gets a pass...and quite frankly, probably rightfully so given they just though enough of him to extend him.
I'd put it like this as likely scenarios, let's assume worst case and no playoff wins.
Scenario 1 - Status Quo
2025 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round (injury bug excuse)
2026 season - Bucs miss playoffs, chalk it up to a down year, Bowles produced playoff squad in first 4 seasons with team.
2027 season - Make or break year as 2028 season would be last year of contact.
- Bucs return to playoffs and Bowles has a coin flip chance to get extended. Will depend on Bucs management expectations but bouncing back will help him
- Bucs miss playoffs which would be second season in a row and he's likely terminated prior to 2028 season.
Scenario 2 - Wheels Fall off
2025 season - we somehow miss the playoffs this year. Injury bug excuse
2026 season - we do even worse and miss playoffs next year. Bowles is most likely fired
Scenario 3 - likely Scenario
2025 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round (injury bug excuse)
2026 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round. Management likely seeing a pattern and expectations rise.
2027 season - Make or break year as 2028 season would be last year of contact. What is management's expectations this year?
- Bucs make playoffs and win a playoff game, think they are only a few pieces away - Bowles is extended
- Bucs make playoffs and lose in first round again, likely a coin flip NOT in Bowles favor of him getting extension. They may decide it's time for a change but maybe not. a coin flip.
- Bucs miss playoffs, and likely view it as a step in the wrong direction even though it's his only year of not making playoffs. Again, likely a coin flip and even more so NOT in his favor
One thing is for certain, unless Bucs end up missing playoffs which would likely take the Bucs to only win 2 games from here on out, which my goodness, i dont see that happening, it's hard to imagine Bowles not being our coach for 2026 season...and as you can see by my scenarios....at this rate, he's likely to earn another extension than he is to get fired.
To your point about bridging the difference between owners and fans, last season many people here (probably a majority) scoffed at the notion that Bowles record last season would be considered in light of injuries to the defense. Then Licht came out at the end and praised Bowles for the results achieved "with what he had to work with."
We have a mostly defensive draft this offseason and the results show promise but the team is now MORE INJURED than the prior year. If we make the playoffs Bowles will be lauded as a hero of sorts inside OBP. No Evans, no Godwin etc.
You are probably and unfortunately right that the glazers won't fire him unless we miss the playoffs in next few seasons. If we missed it this year id fire him and definitely deserve it. Schedule is tough in middle of season but it eases up and we should still make the playoffs. We may make a run then if we're healthy and we run into some luck too. They're capable of making some timely plays. Glazers won't fire him this year unless we completely bomb.
yeah even with the injuries, if these miss the playoffs this year, with how shit the division is, that would be an inditement on Bowles
BUT....given the injuries, they will use that as an excuse no doubt and Bowles gets a pass...and quite frankly, probably rightfully so given they just though enough of him to extend him.
I'd put it like this as likely scenarios, let's assume worst case and no playoff wins.
Scenario 1 - Status Quo
2025 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round (injury bug excuse)
2026 season - Bucs miss playoffs, chalk it up to a down year, Bowles produced playoff squad in first 4 seasons with team.
2027 season - Make or break year as 2028 season would be last year of contact.
- Bucs return to playoffs and Bowles has a coin flip chance to get extended. Will depend on Bucs management expectations but bouncing back will help him
- Bucs miss playoffs which would be second season in a row and he's likely terminated prior to 2028 season.
Scenario 2 - Wheels Fall off
2025 season - we somehow miss the playoffs this year. Injury bug excuse
2026 season - we do even worse and miss playoffs next year. Bowles is most likely fired
Scenario 3 - likely Scenario
2025 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round (injury bug excuse)
2026 season - Bucs make playoffs this year and lose in first round. Management likely seeing a pattern and expectations rise.
2027 season - Make or break year as 2028 season would be last year of contact. What is management's expectations this year?
- Bucs make playoffs and win a playoff game, think they are only a few pieces away - Bowles is extended
- Bucs make playoffs and lose in first round again, likely a coin flip NOT in Bowles favor of him getting extension. They may decide it's time for a change but maybe not. a coin flip.
- Bucs miss playoffs, and likely view it as a step in the wrong direction even though it's his only year of not making playoffs. Again, likely a coin flip and even more so NOT in his favor
One thing is for certain, unless Bucs end up missing playoffs which would likely take the Bucs to only win 2 games from here on out, which my goodness, i dont see that happening, it's hard to imagine Bowles not being our coach for 2026 season...and as you can see by my scenarios....at this rate, he's likely to earn another extension than he is to get fired.
To your point about bridging the difference between owners and fans, last season many people here (probably a majority) scoffed at the notion that Bowles record last season would be considered in light of injuries to the defense. Then Licht came out at the end and praised Bowles for the results achieved "with what he had to work with."
We have a mostly defensive draft this offseason and the results show promise but the team is now MORE INJURED than the prior year. If we make the playoffs Bowles will be lauded as a hero of sorts inside OBP. No Evans, no Godwin etc.
yeah exactly. and to be clear, im just living in the real world (well at least in this particular instance of Bowles leash with the team)
for those that disagree, i mean, in what scenario would the Glazers/Licht actually fire Bowles. What would have to happen this year? Next year?
Yea it's not likely we don't make the playoffs. Owners need to see the writing on the wall though. A new hc could put this team over. Bowles isn't it.
Yea it's not likely we don't make the playoffs. Owners need to see the writing on the wall though. A new hc could put this team over. Bowles isn't it.
Not that Bowles is Dungy, but if memory serves the Bucs had a good season in 2000 and were expecting a good 2001 but a lot went wrong, we sort of limped in to the playoffs and then we were beaten AGAIN by the Eagles. So, there was this definite sense that Dungy could not get past the Eagle.
I guess that tells us Bowles could get fired if the team stumbled from here and didnt make the playoffs. If we get past that, it could be next year if we are relatively injury free but still dont have it together, stumble out of the gates, never seem quite competitive.
heck, to your point the Glazers even have the actual experience of a new coach putting the team over the toe
