For the fans who excuse Baker's poor performance years because "he's had a different OC almost every year," why are you so sure he's the Bucs' best option this year with a NEW OC from last year?
For fans seeking to minimize Mayfield’s accomplishments so they can make the case for some invisible player to be named later. While at Cleveland he had one year that was off-track, and one that was due to injury. Carolina is the house Tepper built, as Tepper continues his goal to become the new Daniel Snyder.
With Baker, you can point to consistent winning seasons going back to his time as a Heisman winning walk-on at Oklahoma, Cleveland, LA, and Tampa.
It’s silliness to suggest he’s the problem. He’s not. He will be fine. He’s not Mahomes, but 31 other QB’s aren’t either.
Thankfully, we Buc fans don’t have to rely on Kyle, or some other mystical unicorn/PTBNL. Should we re-sign Baker Mike & AWJ, we’ll go as far as an improved o-line & the defense will take us.
The problem in Tampa last year, was not Baker. Barring injury, that an improved line/run-game should insure - both priorities for the draft - will only serve to bolster, consistency.
For the fans who excuse Baker's poor performance years because "he's had a different OC almost every year," why are you so sure he's the Bucs' best option this year with a NEW OC from last year?
For fans seeking to minimize Mayfield’s accomplishments so they can make the case for some invisible player to be named later. While at Cleveland he had one year that was off-track, and one that was due to injury. Carolina is the house Tepper built, as Tepper continues his goal to become the new Daniel Snyder.
With Baker, you can point to consistent winning seasons going back to his time as a Heisman winning walk-on at Oklahoma, Cleveland, LA, and Tampa.
It’s silliness to suggest he’s the problem. He’s not. He will be fine. He’s not Mahomes, but 31 other QB’s aren’t either.
Thankfully, we Buc fans don’t have to rely on Kyle, or some other mystical unicorn/PTBNL. Should we re-sign Baker Mike & AWJ, we’ll go as far as an improved o-line & the defense will take us.
The problem in Tampa last year, was not Baker. Barring injury, that an improved line/run-game should insure - both priorities for the draft - will only serve to bolster, consistency.
nobody should take the 2022 Baker season seriously. He was traded in July of that year. Most QBs sign in March and much more time to learn the playbook and gain chemistry with players. So while the Baker haters can say, he was ass in 2022, he really wasn't given a great opportunity there. It be different if he was traded several months earlier but need to be level headed of the assessment there. I essentially throw it away.
what should be judged is his time in Cleveland and he had a good rookie year followed up with a dud in 2019 and a rebound in 2020 and ok if you want to throw 2021 out to injury but Baker's ceiling is he has not surpassed 28 touchdown passes. Is that his ceiling? Can he do better? My hope is that he can. How he performed in 2023 was good but NOT great. So is he a guy worthy of the #1 overall pick or a mid level QB. I'd currently rank him anywhere from 14 to 20 on any given sunday and the hope is he can improve/build on last year.
2023 was an interesting year where the top TD passes were Dak at 36, Love at 32, Purdy at 31, and Goff at 30. Baker ranked 7th
in 2022, it was Aaron Rodgers with 26. Another low performance. in 2021, the 7th ranked QB was Josh Allen with 36. in 2020, it was Big Ben with 33. So im thinking Baker needs to average 2 a game or 34 total next year to show we've got ourselves a franchise guy.
With Improved o-line, and adding a competent/complimentary RB, it’s more likely to see something like what you list as a ceiling.For the fans who excuse Baker's poor performance years because "he's had a different OC almost every year," why are you so sure he's the Bucs' best option this year with a NEW OC from last year?
For fans seeking to minimize Mayfield’s accomplishments so they can make the case for some invisible player to be named later. While at Cleveland he had one year that was off-track, and one that was due to injury. Carolina is the house Tepper built, as Tepper continues his goal to become the new Daniel Snyder.
With Baker, you can point to consistent winning seasons going back to his time as a Heisman winning walk-on at Oklahoma, Cleveland, LA, and Tampa.
It’s silliness to suggest he’s the problem. He’s not. He will be fine. He’s not Mahomes, but 31 other QB’s aren’t either.
Thankfully, we Buc fans don’t have to rely on Kyle, or some other mystical unicorn/PTBNL. Should we re-sign Baker Mike & AWJ, we’ll go as far as an improved o-line & the defense will take us.
The problem in Tampa last year, was not Baker. Barring injury, that an improved line/run-game should insure - both priorities for the draft - will only serve to bolster, consistency.
nobody should take the 2022 Baker season seriously. He was traded in July of that year. Most QBs sign in March and much more time to learn the playbook and gain chemistry with players. So while the Baker haters can say, he was ass in 2022, he really wasn't given a great opportunity there. It be different if he was traded several months earlier but need to be level headed of the assessment there. I essentially throw it away.
what should be judged is his time in Cleveland and he had a good rookie year followed up with a dud in 2019 and a rebound in 2020 and ok if you want to throw 2021 out to injury but Baker's ceiling is he has not surpassed 28 touchdown passes. Is that his ceiling? Can he do better? My hope is that he can. How he performed in 2023 was good but NOT great. So is he a guy worthy of the #1 overall pick or a mid level QB. I'd currently rank him anywhere from 14 to 20 on any given sunday and the hope is he can improve/build on last year.
2023 was an interesting year where the top TD passes were Dak at 36, Love at 32, Purdy at 31, and Goff at 30. Baker ranked 7th
in 2022, it was Aaron Rodgers with 26. Another low performance. in 2021, the 7th ranked QB was Josh Allen with 36. in 2020, it was Big Ben with 33. So im thinking Baker needs to average 2 a game or 34 total next year to show we've got ourselves a franchise guy.
However, I read an interesting stat shared on JBF site:
“…FS1 recently shared a stat that might be of interest. Twice in the past four seasons, Mayfield has had 25 passing touchdowns and 10 or less picks. Only six quarterbacks can make that claim and Mayfield did it with different clubs and playcallers.
That’s not a coincidence. He’s also won two playoff games with two different teams in that span.”
If you give him some protection & talent, he gives really good production, especially for a mid-level QB.
Baker also allows you to bolster the defense, again this season, with the first round draft pick (preferably at either edge or DB).
hey man, you don't have to sell me on Baker. He won me over in week 1 with his guts to win that Vikings game. Then, obviously how he played in the playoffs only put the exclamation point on his comeback year.
i just understand the hesitancy on some including myself not want to go overboard with his contract. In my mind, he still has a lot to prove and a contract in the $30M range is tops in my opinion of what he should get. He hasn't yet shown in his career that he can build off the prior year. I am hopeful he can do that in Tampa but his contract should factor in his inconstancy.
i think the Baker situation has almost become a polarizing political issue. It seems to me that people have chosen a side and are all in on it. I probably put it in 3 camps
1 - Anybody but Baker camp. These are the fans that don't really have a good solution to replace Baker. They mention pie in the sky, fairy tale, "why not go with the back-up" half pregnant recommendations but really don't appear educated enough on the Bucs options in terms of draft and free agency and thus result to bashing Baker without an alternative
2 - Baker Bros - those of us that are suggesting he is the franchise QB without question. Those that claim he is better than Prescott and Lamar. (Hell, i even argue the point from his playoff success versus those) but some of you are over the top. I think some even followed him over here from Cleveland.
3 - Realist - Of course, my narcasistic self puts myself in this camp but it's those that realize Baker had a good year, BUT not GREAT, and that a cautiously optimistic view that he can build off his first year with the Bucs. Also realize that given our draft status and whats available in free agency, Baker is our best option. Sure, he's a top 15 QB so unfortunately we have not yet found our franchise QB; but then again, other than one team in this league, who can comfortable say they got the right guy in the position for the next 10 years?
Would hope most by now sit in camp 3...but again due to the "polarizing politics" it looks' like we got a lot in 1 and 2 still. I mean shit, the fact that some are hoping the Bucs dont resign Baker is all you need to know there.
I see where you are, sorry if it came off as trying to argue. I actually was building off of your premise, while at the same time adding a data point or two to illustrate we don’t have much space to complain.
Getting the GOAT (something I doubt anyone was against at this point), left us in a position to either blow it all up, or leverage the talent that remained, re-load, and move forward.
You broke down the polarization pretty well. I would add to it that there may be some Buc fans that wanted to blow it all up to position us to draft another shiny new franchise QB. Long term Buc fans should know the pitfalls of pinning the franchise hopes on a premium draft pick.
Good post. I don’t know that Baker is a 10 year bet, but I believe he is a great 3 to 5 year option.
This organization - like the majority of successful NFL franchises - have never figured out how to find a franchise QB in the draft, but they have occasionally found competitive/proven QB’s that can get their teams in the playoffs.
That scenario, to me, is the most likely. Once you’re in, anything can happen. Who knows, we may find something more on the way to that destination.
Interesting breakdown on QB Power rankings for 2024 - would argue with the ranking of Baker - but not too much. I'd say they undervalued him by somewhere between 3 to 5 spots (rankd him behind Kirk Cousins, Geno Smith, Anthony Richardson, and Kyler Murray) - but won't argue with the specific analysis.
Ranking Every NFL Quarterback Entering 2024 Offseason | The 33rd Team
FeelingDangerous isn't going to like this article. They have Baker behind both Jackson and Tua.
Lol, nah. Saw this one a few days ago. It's about what you'd expect. Though how Kyler is higher than Baker is pretty puzzling based just off their numbers in 2023.
But it wasn't that long ago that most of these analysts consistently had Stafford ranked worse than Dak and Cousins, and I laughed my butt off every time I read it. I mean, who on God's Green Earth could watch tape of Stafford/Cousins/Dak and ever come to the conclusion that Stafford was the worst of the three? The only thing funnier was some of the worst talking heads like Rob Parker (another guy, not named Acho, can't remember his name now) doubling down on that nonsense for multiple years. It was basically the "analysts" looking at the Ws and Ls and making a judgement without any other context. Parker went so far as to say he didn't see Stafford's arm talent (rofl). I mean, I never really took Parker seriously anyway, but wth?
And I think it was PFF that had Mahomes ranked below Cousins at the beginning of the regular season a few years ago, lol.
These 'analysts' get it wildly wrong all the time. Kind of how meteorologists can be wrong 50% of the time and still keep their jobs. It is what it is.
Based just on the stats and the metrics from 2023, without any other context, sure, Baker is a mid-teens QB. In 2023. With a rookie OC. Without a running game for most of the season. In an offense designed to be run-centric. With a pretty porous OL. Following a living legend, in fact the GOAT himself.
And I'm not saying any of that should be taken into consideration when making these 'lists.' Gotta draw a line somewhere, I get it. But anyone with eyes should be able to see that Baker is better than Kyler. And Anthony Richardson, who didn't even play 5 games and has zero stats/metrics to back that claim up? Geno is obviously the 'feel good' story of the bunch.
But there's no empirical evidence that he performed better than Baker in 2023. Or that he's been a better QB for his entire career. He's had literally just one statistically better season, predicated by 8 seasons of meh to terrible.
But we have to be in on Geno's story after the crazy history of his career, and the stellar season he had last year.
You look at the obvious flaws to the list such as the above, and it becomes pretty clear that the 'analyst' was speaking more from emotional bias than actual analysis. Which is fine; it's the off-season and they have to write something that'll generate clicks. hell, I clicked on it as soon as I saw it, and I knew from previous experience that it was going to have some hot takes. I'm just shocked that they didn't rank Mahomes 3rd or something like they did for a couple seasons early in his career.
Nicely said @FeelingDangerous.
As I said, I thought Baker was legitimately undervalued by about 5 spots…maybe more, but I’ll give the nay-sayers some benefit of the doubt.
That’s ok, Bake needs some negativity to feed off of for next season. This type loves rubbing their noses in it after ‘proving it’ - again.
Signing Winfield, and being ok to over-paying him, while not Baker? Means you either think someone currently on the depth chart - can do as good a job - or you don’t care about winning.
Sounds more like a straw man to me.
Who has mentioned that they are wanting to over-pay Winfield and not Baker?
Actually, it sounds more like you'd happily over-pay for Baker, while skimming some better players.
All this being said, yes, as it pertains to priority re-signs and extensions; it's easily:
- Wirfs
- Winfield Jr.
Not sure how that's up for debate.
Multiple Pro-Bowls, AP honors, Super Bowls winners, absolutely elite, and both considered to be arguably the best at their positions.
Baker doesn't check a single one of those boxes.
Coming from the king of strawmen, I’ll take your word for it.Signing Winfield, and being ok to over-paying him, while not Baker? Means you either think someone currently on the depth chart - can do as good a job - or you don’t care about winning.
Sounds more like a straw man to me.
Who has mentioned that they are wanting to over-pay Winfield and not Baker?
Actually, it sounds more like you'd happily over-pay for Baker, while skimming some better players.
All this being said, yes, as it pertains to priority re-signs and extensions; it's easily:
- Wirfs
- Winfield Jr.
Not sure how that's up for debate.
Multiple Pro-Bowls, AP honors, Super Bowls winners, absolutely elite, and both considered to be arguably the best at their positions.
Baker doesn't check a single one of those boxes.
Wirffs will be an extension that will create room. Winfield will be tagged.
It’s not like you’ve been the harbinger of reality regarding QB value. What you have posted as your top salary/‘overpaying’ - is under the minimum franchise tag.
Coming from the king of strawmen, I’ll take your word for it.
Wasn't expecting you to answer the question of "who's saying we should over-pay Winfield and not Baker", so we move on.
Wirffs will be an extension that will create room. Winfield will be tagged.
Great.
Wirfs and Winfield are the 2 most important pieces. So, as I said, they should be prioritized.
It’s not like you’ve been the harbinger of reality regarding QB value. What you have posted as your top salary/‘overpaying’ - is under the minimum franchise tag.
Lol.
Because I don't want to pay $40M+ per year on Baker freakin' Mayfield?
I think you begrudgingly posted that the top would be $30 mil.Coming from the king of strawmen, I’ll take your word for it.
Wasn't expecting you to answer the question of "who's saying we should over-pay Winfield and not Baker", so we move on.
Wirffs will be an extension that will create room. Winfield will be tagged.
Great.
Wirfs and Winfield are the 2 most important pieces. So, as I said, they should be prioritized.
It’s not like you’ve been the harbinger of reality regarding QB value. What you have posted as your top salary/‘overpaying’ - is under the minimum franchise tag.
Lol.
Because I don't want to pay $40M+ per year on Baker freakin' Mayfield?
What’s $7mil between friends?
We don’t have to agree on everything. Mostly, I like your takes…just think you undervalue Baker’s importance, to this team.
Nicely said @FeelingDangerous.
As I said, I thought Baker was legitimately undervalued by about 5 spots…maybe more, but I’ll give the nay-sayers some benefit of the doubt.
That’s ok, Bake needs some negativity to feed off of for next season. This type loves rubbing their noses in it after ‘proving it’ - again.
eh, I mean, I would put Baker somewhere around 15th-17th on this list (feels like a power ranking list). For 2023.
It's interesting that he nails the attributes/shortcomings of players like Kyler and Goff, but then ranks them higher than their stated abilities. But he also significantly overstates Dak's and Geno's abilities (could be others, but I stopped reading after Carr). I mean, "Smith is like an 85 percent version of Stafford. " Wth are you talking about, buddy? Lol. also interesting that Geno's comments begin with "he's really good." Like we have to be reminded/convinced of the idea. He goes so far as to basicaly demand that Geno remain the starter in SEA. Why is that necessary? Whole paragraph feels a little like a reach, like he's trying to convince us. He does describe Hurts' issues accurately.
I get the feeling he has watched most of these guys, but obviously he hasn't watched others nearly as much. I've lived in PHX for over 20 years now, and one of my best friends is a life-long SEA fan, so I've seen both Kyler and Geno up close on the field for multiple games. And not once have I ever thought to myself, "I feel like I'm watching Matt Stafford here," while watching Geno. That's just a really strange, out-of-left-field, comparison to me.
And how does Anthony Richardson end up at 16th after playing just 4 games? I admit I didn't watch him that much, but my brother is an IND fan, and his assessment of Richardson wasn't nearly as glowing. Though I do agree that Richardson needs to protect himself a lot better.
And his comments about Baker are curiously without specificity; "he's a mid-tier gunslinger," and "He simply played with more confidence." nothing about his play as a drop-back passer, his ability to throw with great timing/rhythm, etc. Very little concrete analysis. His comments are almost dismissive, like he has a personal issue with the player.
Whatever. Probably you're right and that blurb will be just another chip for Baker to put on his shoulder in 2024. I look forward to this guy having to eat his own words next year.
95% of Browns fans will tell you they throw out the 2021 season because of the joke that was Freddie Kitchens as HC who eventually took over for 1-31 Hue Jackson thanks to John Dorsey who was also fired at the end of the season. Noteworthy is that every good player on that team was there before Berry and Stefanski took over
They have drafted/produced not one single star in 4 years
I could spend a day on details but in a nutshell every single in 21 week the players talked about plays being called during the game that were never practiced during the week. Its all they talked about on chat boards
If Halam hadn't already had the rep for firing HC's on a whim Fredo wouldn't have lasted 8 weeks
.. and don't get any of them started on the cancer that was OBJ who continually dropped balls that looked intentional.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
I think you begrudgingly posted that the top would be $30 mil.
"Begrudgingly" posted?
Lol. Ok.
We don’t have to agree on everything. Mostly, I like your takes…just think you undervalue Baker’s importance, to this team.
You're right. We don't.
You have some takes I agree with and some that I don't.
And, while I appreciate your view that I "undervalue Baker's importance to the team"...I simply respond with the thought that you "overvalue Baker".
Clearly, we agree to disagree on this one. Nothing more, nothing less.
95% of Browns fans will tell you they throw out the 2021 season because of the joke that was Freddie Kitchens as HC who eventually took over for 1-31 Hue Jackson thanks to John Dorsey who was also fired at the end of the season. Noteworthy is that every good player on that team was there before Berry and Stefanski took over
They have drafted/produced not one single star in 4 years
I could spend a day on details but in a nutshell every single in 21 week the players talked about plays being called during the game that were never practiced during the week. Its all they talked about on chat boards
If Halam hadn't already had the rep for firing HC's on a whim Fredo wouldn't have lasted 8 weeks
.. and don't get any of them started on the cancer that was OBJ who continually dropped balls that looked intentional.
It was really about the fact that the anal retentive Stefanski couldn't handle Baker's personality
Kitchens was OC in 2019. If you get a chance, check out Kurt Warner's assessments of Mayfield/Kitchens in 2019. Not often you hear Warner say things like, "I don't know what they're trying to do here," and "I don't like how this play is structured," and "I really don't like this play-call here," and so on. Warner usually will try pretty hard to not criticize the OC in his analyses, so when it happens you know it's not good. I'm not the best Xs and Os guy, just more of a fundamental understanding, but when even I can watch the A-22 and know that a play call is garbage before the snap, that's bad.
In 2021, Baker's issues were all injury-related. He tore his left shoulder labrum in Week 2 or 3. Sometime after that (5-6 weeks later?) he had a high ankle sprain, which I believe he played through, didn't miss any time. Iirc, after the season ended, Baker was found to have also fractured his shoulder blade. I mean, he didn't play well, that's not debatable. But he was pretty banged up; he would've played a lot better had he been healthy.
Stefanski . . . I think he's a good offensive-minded coach, except that he tends to turtle up in the biggest moments. He just wouldn't give Baker a chance to make a play during a pivotal series.
The one time he let Baker really work the deeper parts of the field in the 2nd 2020 game vs. BAL, Baker put up 40+ points, tied the game up twice after being down double-digits, and put CLE ahead late in the 4th quarter with a TD strike to Kareem Hunt, which the defense promptly lost in the last 1:04.
Baker put up 355 yards on 28/47 passing while hitting 7 different receivers multiples times, 2 TDs/1 INT for a PR of 87.5/QBR of 78.9 (elite-level), and that was with BAL doing a good job taking away CLE run game (Chubb ran for just 82 yards/Hunt 33 yards). his WRs for the day were Jarvis Landry, R. Higgins, and Donovan Peoples-Jones. A real Murderer's Row of talent. Also, didn't help that CLE fumbled the ball 7 times, including 3 by Higgins and two by Landry. But a lot of the talking heads and fans put the loss on Baker anyway, lol.
