Just fyi, Baker went 8-11 and 114 yds to finish the game. I get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more, but you can't just abandon the passing game in the NFL.
Carolina is #32 in run defense and we averaged 6.6 yards per carry on 1st and 10. You obviously don't "get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more". The amount of passes on 1st and 10, 2nd and medium and 3rd and short nearly cost us the season. I said in another thread that with this offensive line and the bad run defeneses on the schedule we can just run our way to the playoffs.
Look, there's more here going on than just winning this particular game, though of course is the most important goal. And Coen ran the ball 39 out of a possble 77 offensive snaps, so I think it's safe to say he called plenty of runs.
But you also have Evans working his way back into the offense, plus you have to get at least or two of these other receivers more into the flow of the offense, and for that they need live game snaps. There has to be at least one more good option besides Evans and Otton.
I get it, the passing offense didn't work out the way anyone would like in this game, but that's part of the price they need to pay to get the passing attack back on track. They can't just say to themselves, "well, let's just run the ball all the way to the playoffs!!!" They'll never win in the playoffs being that one-dimensional. They have to keep working on the passing attack in real games, or they'll be one-and-done for sure in January.
Well it's funny because we wanted pass to set up the run early but now that we run well we want the run to setup pass.
Arm chair qbing at its finest
Just fyi, Baker went 8-11 and 114 yds to finish the game. I get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more, but you can't just abandon the passing game in the NFL.
Carolina is #32 in run defense and we averaged 6.6 yards per carry on 1st and 10. You obviously don't "get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more". The amount of passes on 1st and 10, 2nd and medium and 3rd and short nearly cost us the season. I said in another thread that with this offensive line and the bad run defeneses on the schedule we can just run our way to the playoffs.
Look, there's more here going on than just winning this particular game, though of course is the most important goal. And Coen ran the ball 39 out of a possble 77 offensive snaps, so I think it's safe to say he called plenty of runs.
But you also have Evans working his way back into the offense, plus you have to get at least or two of these other receivers more into the flow of the offense, and for that they need live game snaps. There has to be at least one more good option besides Evans and Otton.
I get it, the passing offense didn't work out the way anyone would like in this game, but that's part of the price they need to pay to get the passing attack back on track. They can't just say to themselves, "well, let's just run the ball all the way to the playoffs!!!" They'll never win in the playoffs being that one-dimensional. They have to keep working on the passing attack in real games, or they'll be one-and-done for sure in January.
Bizarre take. Winning this game is all that mattered. On 3rd and 1 and 2nd and 6 in OT in FG range it's not a time to be balanced. They have the #32 run defense and we have a monster OL. Run the ball down their throats. To his credit Licht poured draft capital into the offensive line and the run game is elite. Let them win the game.
On 3rd and 1 and 2nd and 6 in OT in FG range it's not a time to be balanced
not sure where you get that?
There is no 3rd and 1 in FG range.
They were 2nd and 6 outside range and threw for 22 yards to get into range and then yes another 2nd and 6 where MAYFIELD takes a horrible sack*, so maybe that is the play you mean?
I certainly get that they could run there, but the flaw is really the sack. I think that sack begins with bad play by one of the WRS, but Mayfield has to throw it away there
But JC, surely you know you're now moving from "400 yds" at "7.9ypc" all the way down to TWO plays . . . one of them FICTION.
Just fyi, Baker went 8-11 and 114 yds to finish the game. I get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more, but you can't just abandon the passing game in the NFL.
Carolina is #32 in run defense and we averaged 6.6 yards per carry on 1st and 10. You obviously don't "get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more". The amount of passes on 1st and 10, 2nd and medium and 3rd and short nearly cost us the season. I said in another thread that with this offensive line and the bad run defeneses on the schedule we can just run our way to the playoffs.
Look, there's more here going on than just winning this particular game, though of course is the most important goal. And Coen ran the ball 39 out of a possble 77 offensive snaps, so I think it's safe to say he called plenty of runs.
But you also have Evans working his way back into the offense, plus you have to get at least or two of these other receivers more into the flow of the offense, and for that they need live game snaps. There has to be at least one more good option besides Evans and Otton.
I get it, the passing offense didn't work out the way anyone would like in this game, but that's part of the price they need to pay to get the passing attack back on track. They can't just say to themselves, "well, let's just run the ball all the way to the playoffs!!!" They'll never win in the playoffs being that one-dimensional. They have to keep working on the passing attack in real games, or they'll be one-and-done for sure in January.
Bizarre take. Winning this game is all that mattered. On 3rd and 1 and 2nd and 6 in OT in FG range it's not a time to be balanced. They have the #32 run defense and we have a monster OL. Run the ball down their throats. To his credit Licht poured draft capital into the offensive line and the run game is elite. Let them win the game.
Here's the thing: Yeah, winning was the most important goal of the game. But the second-most important goal is to find out which receiver besides Evans/Otton can handle a decent share of targets, in the event they get to the playoffs. They can't go into January with only two reliable receivers. And they can't expect to beat DET, GB, PHI in the playoffs just running the ball 35+ times. That's just not going to work against playoff-caliber teams.
And yes, they also have White and Irving out of the backfield to eat up some targets, but they obviously need a speed guy and/or a possession type to step up, or they won't be able to compete with the Lions, Packers, and Eagles with just Evans, Otton and sometimes Shepard.
Because the reality is that TB's defense is probably not going to get a whole lot better between now and Jan. Maybe incrementally better, but they aren't likely to make a huge leap defensively in the next 4-5 weeks. Which means they're going to give up something like 27-30pts/gm in the playoffs. Meaning TB's offense, which has been the strength of the team all season, has to be multiple enough to put up 30+ pts. So one or more of Palmer, McMillan, and/or Miller has to step up and be more reliable than they have been, so that TB has more than two options when they need chunk plays.
My guess is that Coen/Baker would like one of those to be Palmer, because the one thing they've been missing is a reliable burner threat to take the top of the defense. And then if they can get either McMillan or Miller to absorb at least 4-5 targets and catch 3 or so of them, that might be enough to offset the loss of Godwin, assuming that Shepard becomes a bit more reliable and can consistently catch 5+ targets/gm.
But to make that happen, Coen/Baker have to keep throwing the ball. They have to find out which of those guys can become the reliable WR3, assuming they already think Shepard is the WR2. And even he has to be better vs. zone. All of which dictates that Coen has to keep calling passing plays, keep giving these guys live reps so they can get more comfortable with the plays/alerts/cans/choices so Coen can figure out who he can rely on going into the playoffs.
And it's not going to be easy, because other than Shepard, these are all 1st/2nd year receivers (as far as I can tell), so they know next to nothing about making sight adjustments, reading the D presnap, when/where to sit down vs. zone, etc. I mean, most of them still aren't reliably running the right routes or running them correctly every time yet. Plus, I'd bet a house payment Coen is still installing more of the playbook, so these guys are having to absorb new plays and concepts as well. And other than Evans, I'm not sure any of these guys understands what a hot route is, or what to do even if they saw the blitz incoming on their side of the formation.
So yeah, winning the game was paramount. But if they expect to do anything in the playoffs, they have to keep pushing these guys to be better in the passing game as well, or they'll almost certainly be one-and-done in the playoffs.
McMillan needs to take the next step
I understand why Coen called some pass attempts early in the game because the early penalties put the Bucs in a hole in terms of distance to the first down marker. But on the other hand running the ball creates more manageable downs in hindsight. Had the Bucs not punted so much in the game by converting some first downs and kicking more FGs this game shouldn't have been as close IMO.
People keep talking about Panthers imploding but the Bucs had miscues as well where the game could have been well out of reach for the Panthers had the Bucs brought their A game with any unit. No unit I would grade as an A from this game that is for sure as special teams, offense and defense was very mediocre.
Agree to an extent, Carolina plugged run gaps and shut down Baker’s escape lanes, early. Coen hung with it and wore Carolina’s defense OUT.I understand why Coen called some pass attempts early in the game because the early penalties put the Bucs in a hole in terms of distance to the first down marker. But on the other hand running the ball creates more manageable downs in hindsight. Had the Bucs not punted so much in the game by converting some first downs and kicking more FGs this game shouldn't have been as close IMO.
People keep talking about Panthers imploding but the Bucs had miscues as well where the game could have been well out of reach for the Panthers had the Bucs brought their A game with any unit. No unit I would grade as an A from this game that is for sure as special teams, offense and defense was very mediocre.
Then he just kept trucking them with that o-line/run game until the chunk run plays started happening.
Moar.
Had the Bucs not punted so much in the game by converting some first downs and kicking more FGs this game shouldn't have been as close IMO.
+1
This is kind of outside the box, but I think Coen should design some plays with Irving and White on the field at the same time. Line them both up in the backfield, and then send one or the other in motion toward slot or out wide.
Just fyi, Baker went 8-11 and 114 yds to finish the game. I get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more, but you can't just abandon the passing game in the NFL.
Carolina is #32 in run defense and we averaged 6.6 yards per carry on 1st and 10. You obviously don't "get that people wanted to run the ball a lot more". The amount of passes on 1st and 10, 2nd and medium and 3rd and short nearly cost us the season. I said in another thread that with this offensive line and the bad run defeneses on the schedule we can just run our way to the playoffs.
Look, there's more here going on than just winning this particular game, though of course is the most important goal. And Coen ran the ball 39 out of a possble 77 offensive snaps, so I think it's safe to say he called plenty of runs.
But you also have Evans working his way back into the offense, plus you have to get at least or two of these other receivers more into the flow of the offense, and for that they need live game snaps. There has to be at least one more good option besides Evans and Otton.
I get it, the passing offense didn't work out the way anyone would like in this game, but that's part of the price they need to pay to get the passing attack back on track. They can't just say to themselves, "well, let's just run the ball all the way to the playoffs!!!" They'll never win in the playoffs being that one-dimensional. They have to keep working on the passing attack in real games, or they'll be one-and-done for sure in January.
Bizarre take. Winning this game is all that mattered. On 3rd and 1 and 2nd and 6 in OT in FG range it's not a time to be balanced. They have the #32 run defense and we have a monster OL. Run the ball down their throats. To his credit Licht poured draft capital into the offensive line and the run game is elite. Let them win the game.
Here's the thing: Yeah, winning was the most important goal of the game. But the second-most important goal is to find out which receiver besides Evans/Otton can handle a decent share of targets, in the event they get to the playoffs. They can't go into January with only two reliable receivers. And they can't expect to beat DET, GB, PHI in the playoffs just running the ball 35+ times. That's just not going to work against playoff-caliber teams.
And yes, they also have White and Irving out of the backfield to eat up some targets, but they obviously need a speed guy and/or a possession type to step up, or they won't be able to compete with the Lions, Packers, and Eagles with just Evans, Otton and sometimes Shepard.
Because the reality is that TB's defense is probably not going to get a whole lot better between now and Jan. Maybe incrementally better, but they aren't likely to make a huge leap defensively in the next 4-5 weeks. Which means they're going to give up something like 27-30pts/gm in the playoffs. Meaning TB's offense, which has been the strength of the team all season, has to be multiple enough to put up 30+ pts. So one or more of Palmer, McMillan, and/or Miller has to step up and be more reliable than they have been, so that TB has more than two options when they need chunk plays.
My guess is that Coen/Baker would like one of those to be Palmer, because the one thing they've been missing is a reliable burner threat to take the top of the defense. And then if they can get either McMillan or Miller to absorb at least 4-5 targets and catch 3 or so of them, that might be enough to offset the loss of Godwin, assuming that Shepard becomes a bit more reliable and can consistently catch 5+ targets/gm.
But to make that happen, Coen/Baker have to keep throwing the ball. They have to find out which of those guys can become the reliable WR3, assuming they already think Shepard is the WR2. And even he has to be better vs. zone. All of which dictates that Coen has to keep calling passing plays, keep giving these guys live reps so they can get more comfortable with the plays/alerts/cans/choices so Coen can figure out who he can rely on going into the playoffs.
And it's not going to be easy, because other than Shepard, these are all 1st/2nd year receivers (as far as I can tell), so they know next to nothing about making sight adjustments, reading the D presnap, when/where to sit down vs. zone, etc. I mean, most of them still aren't reliably running the right routes or running them correctly every time yet. Plus, I'd bet a house payment Coen is still installing more of the playbook, so these guys are having to absorb new plays and concepts as well. And other than Evans, I'm not sure any of these guys understands what a hot route is, or what to do even if they saw the blitz incoming on their side of the formation.
So yeah, winning the game was paramount. But if they expect to do anything in the playoffs, they have to keep pushing these guys to be better in the passing game as well, or they'll almost certainly be one-and-done in the playoffs.
You're saying the Bucs have a problem, the problem has a solution but you're looking at it backwards.
Bucs have an amazing strength right now, the running game. I stated in another thread that the Bucs are tied for 2nd in yards per carry but are only 16th in rush attempts. They should be running the ball a ton more. A TON.
What does the running game do? It keeps the defense off the field. The defense you say that will give up 27-30 points per game in the playoffs. If the Bucs are going to make the playoffs and win in the playoffs they're going to have to go on long drives that eat up time and keep the defense off the field. The Bucs will not win being balanced. The WRs are not good enough. The only shot we have to make a run is to run for 200+ yards and have no turnovers. If Coen calls the same bullshit he called Sunday the Bucs will lose to one of these bad teams.
only 16th in rush attempts. They should be running the ball a ton more. A TON.
this is where the real world collides with statistics.
I think everyone agrees the Bucs run well and can run MORE . .. BUT in the real world any change is INCREMENTAL because running and passing are LINKED.
A lot the Bucs offensive success is tied to the run/pass BALANCE. Look at 1st down as an easy example. That BALANCE helps keeps the offense going as effectively as it has because it keeps the opposing defense on its heels.
So, if you accept that the first down balance should STAY thats only leaving 2nd down and 3rd and short when the Bucs are +/- one score through the 3rd quarter (which would be offset by more runs playing with the +/- one score lead in the 4th). There's not a lot to chnange.
Some here have said "there's no correlation between running and passing in the NFL" The two are actually TOTALLY CONNECTED in a good offense. Just because PLAY ACTION PASSING has better ypc doesnt mean you run PA passing every pass play because then the LBs stop biting etc.
Its the INTERPLAY between running and PASSING that Coen exploits so you cant essentially eliminate one part of the equation
They should be running the ball a ton more. A TON.
another way to think of it is that you are saying that one of the very best offenses in the league - TOP, 3rd down conversions, plays per game, yard per game, score etc -- should be CHANGED.
And the reason it should be changed is to get the 3rd RB more carries.
That is your starting point for all of this. Tucker is your "victim of Licht 2024"
They should be running the ball a ton more. A TON.
another way to think of it is that you are saying that one of the very best offenses in the league - TOP, 3rd down conversions, plays per game, yard per game, score etc -- should be CHANGED.
And the reason it should be changed is to get the 3rd RB more carries.
That is your starting point for all of this. Tucker is your "victim of Licht 2024"
Let me know when CG is coming back. And since you want to disparage Tucker, take out the Saints game and tell how the Bucs offense ranks now.
