Barton’s play is greatly impacted by the two guards we’ve deployed.
This is the point. If you were making a judgment on Barton based on this year you'd have to adjust your gauge to account for the two Gs. That doesn't mean he's an "NFL Center," but it certainly means everyone should withhold judgment.
He could get better but I'm just not seeing what Biggs is seeing.
But we all have our bias
I think JPJ isbetter but it's hard to assess how good he's been. Raiders moved him to guard. The last game I saw him he was playing great then got hurt and I think he got placed on season ending IR. Since that injury the Raiders have been atrocious at creating lanes for Jeanty.
The raiders have arguably the worst line in the NFL so I'm not entirely sure how to grade him. His PFF isn't flattering.
JPJ was taken much later too... Like it or not, where they are drafted affects expectations.
I may not have been clear enough, so I'll try to be more clear:
If JPJ was drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers as the 26th overall selection as you were advocating, would his play thus far in the NFL (wasn't good enough at Center - on a shitty OL, as you correctly pointed out - and missed significant time) justify the 26th overall selection?
Yes, because he's a better player and has played better despite having even worse players around him and worse coaching/development.
But the margin isn't substantial
That simply doesn't make sense to me. I'm not sure how a guy who was drafted to be a Center, but wasn't good enough to stay at Center (on a team with many other shitty iOL) and has missed significant time (started 21/32 possible games) is justified @ 26th overall. While Barton has been good enough to stay at Center - with better iOL than the Raiders and has started 31/32 possible games is not justified @ 26th overall. Those things are pretty substantial differences in favor of Barton.
I can appreciate that you say the margin isn't substantial, but I think you're letting your bias affect you here.
I for the life of me cannot understand how anyone can so shamelessly support retaining Bowles as the Bucs HC. Knuckleheads. They are entitled to their opinion, but so am I. Many of us have discussed all his shortcomings as nauseum for the past few years. 8-9. 9-8. 10-7. 7-8. 1-3. 35-35. What's so damn special about winning the NFCS? And then get mowed down in the playoffs by superior opponents with superior coaching. Fan frustration is reaching a fever pitch. The search for a new Bucs HC has been ongoing for the past several weeks. It's clear that change is in the air.
Bucs Coaching Staff Day of Reckoning 1/5/26.
Maybe the Bucs will smarten up and not pass on Klint Kubiak this time around.
Roster is overrated, there are severe deficiencies. We lack elite players and have too many bad players.
You keep barking up that same tree. I personally believe this roster would perform better with better coaches. Bowles is a poor head coach. He's an even worse DC. Grizzard was a poor choice for OC, not enough experience, not an NFL level OC. The special teams have been steadily underperforming; there was some disasters, notably the Buffalo game as the worst. Bowles inherited a Super Bowl roster, and managed to finish with a 8-9 record. The team's performance has hardly improved under Bowles watch. Mediocre coach. Mediocre team. Mediocre division. ToDdBoWeLsIsNoTaSuPeRbOwLcOaCh
I for the life of me cannot understand how anyone can so shamelessly support retaining Bowles as the Bucs HC. Knuckleheads. They are entitled to their opinion, but so am I. Many of us have discussed all his shortcomings as nauseum for the past few years. 8-9. 9-8. 10-7. 7-8. 1-3. 35-35. What's so damn special about winning the NFCS? And then get mowed down in the playoffs by superior opponents with superior coaching. Fan frustration is reaching a fever pitch. The search for a new Bucs HC has been ongoing for the past several weeks. It's clear that change is in the air.
Bucs Coaching Staff Day of Reckoning 1/5/26.
Maybe the Bucs will smarten up and not pass on Klint Kubiak this time around.
Roster is overrated, there are severe deficiencies. We lack elite players and have too many bad players.
That is true the Bucs are lacking elite players as the current elite players on the roster are five years older from the 2020 SB season. But the flipside is the Bucs just navigated a cap crunch and you can't trade for elite players with no cap space and/or high draft picks. If you mean draft elite players that means you need to be drafting in the top 15 consistently.
I think the trade backs for Licht has hurt him from missing out on players because those trade backs fill out the roster. But filling out the roster can be done with late draft picks, UDFA and street free agent picks up on 1 year deals.
Staying pat and landing, Barton, EE or trading up for Wirfs have looked better for Licht.
Taking players that fall to you tends to work out better than trading down and landing your "guys" on your board. Because often your board may be the best it can be but if other teams's board has these guys outside the top 200 then why do you value these players so much? Meaning if there is overlap with another teams top 200 and your top 200 it means there is athletic traits that indicate potentially player becoming elite. But if your top 200 board diverges so much from other teams top 200 board then what are you doing trading down?
This happened to the Patriots with BB toward the end.
Licht though has adjusted and will be more aggressive trading up or staying pat to land players which is the best way to draft. Trading down only makes sense if team offers a great deal like Snead does for the Rams.
Alldaway2.0 - “Licht has adjusted.”?? What makes you think that? I think you’re hoping that.
He’s been getting fat and happy reading his clippings since the Super Bowl. Thinks he’s good enough at talent evaluation that he can build a team with 3rd, 4th, 5th rounders.
I know it takes two to tango, but I would have loved to have traded our 1st and 3rd rounders picks (Barton and McMillan) to draft Jared Verse at #19. I said at the time. But instead of having a franchise edge, we have a run of the mill center and a WR3. They are fine players, but they don’t win you championships. The center that left us to go lead the Jags oline, is doing just fine.
I for the life of me cannot understand how anyone can so shamelessly support retaining Bowles as the Bucs HC. Knuckleheads. They are entitled to their opinion, but so am I. Many of us have discussed all his shortcomings as nauseum for the past few years. 8-9. 9-8. 10-7. 7-8. 1-3. 35-35. What's so damn special about winning the NFCS? And then get mowed down in the playoffs by superior opponents with superior coaching. Fan frustration is reaching a fever pitch. The search for a new Bucs HC has been ongoing for the past several weeks. It's clear that change is in the air.
Bucs Coaching Staff Day of Reckoning 1/5/26.
Maybe the Bucs will smarten up and not pass on Klint Kubiak this time around.
Roster is overrated, there are severe deficiencies. We lack elite players and have too many bad players.
You keep barking up that same tree. I personally believe this roster would perform better with better coaches. Bowles is a poor head coach. He's an even worse DC. Grizzard was a poor choice for OC, not enough experience, not an NFL level OC. The special teams have been steadily underperforming; there was some disasters, notably the Buffalo game as the worst. Bowles inherited a Super Bowl roster, and managed to finish with a 8-9 record. The team's performance has hardly improved under Bowles watch. Mediocre coach. Mediocre team. Mediocre division. ToDdBoWeLsIsNoTaSuPeRbOwLcOaCh
You say this team would perform better with a better head coach but when we saw a Licht/Arians team without Tom Brady the season was over by October. Outside the Brady years there's overwhelming evidence that Licht does not build good teams. If you say this team is different then my counter to you is PFF puts this roster in the same tier as the Vikings, Saints, Panthers, Falcons, Steelers, Giants, Dolphins, Cardinals. If you disagree then tell what ratings you have a problem with, they're all free to look at.
I for the life of me cannot understand how anyone can so shamelessly support retaining Bowles as the Bucs HC. Knuckleheads. They are entitled to their opinion, but so am I. Many of us have discussed all his shortcomings as nauseum for the past few years. 8-9. 9-8. 10-7. 7-8. 1-3. 35-35. What's so damn special about winning the NFCS? And then get mowed down in the playoffs by superior opponents with superior coaching. Fan frustration is reaching a fever pitch. The search for a new Bucs HC has been ongoing for the past several weeks. It's clear that change is in the air.
Bucs Coaching Staff Day of Reckoning 1/5/26.
Maybe the Bucs will smarten up and not pass on Klint Kubiak this time around.
Roster is overrated, there are severe deficiencies. We lack elite players and have too many bad players.
That is true the Bucs are lacking elite players as the current elite players on the roster are five years older from the 2020 SB season. But the flipside is the Bucs just navigated a cap crunch and you can't trade for elite players with no cap space and/or high draft picks. If you mean draft elite players that means you need to be drafting in the top 15 consistently.
I think the trade backs for Licht has hurt him from missing out on players because those trade backs fill out the roster. But filling out the roster can be done with late draft picks, UDFA and street free agent picks up on 1 year deals.
Staying pat and landing, Barton, EE or trading up for Wirfs have looked better for Licht.
Taking players that fall to you tends to work out better than trading down and landing your "guys" on your board. Because often your board may be the best it can be but if other teams's board has these guys outside the top 200 then why do you value these players so much? Meaning if there is overlap with another teams top 200 and your top 200 it means there is athletic traits that indicate potentially player becoming elite. But if your top 200 board diverges so much from other teams top 200 board then what are you doing trading down?
This happened to the Patriots with BB toward the end.
Licht though has adjusted and will be more aggressive trading up or staying pat to land players which is the best way to draft. Trading down only makes sense if team offers a great deal like Snead does for the Rams.
Draft order has absolutely nothing to do with it. What a bullshit excuse. The week before the Cardinals game both Scott Reynolds and Ira Kaufman spoke about how much the Bucs liked Trey McBride in the 2022 draft. Bucs take Logan Hall at 33, Trey McBride goes 55, Bucs take Cade Otton at 106.
2021
JTS-32
Creed Humphrey- 63
Kyle Trask- 64
Robert Hainsey - 95
Quinn Meinerz- 98
Amom-Ra St Brown- 112
Jaelon Darden- 129
That's just bad draft stacking and maneuvering. Those two drafts are the exact reason we're in the situation. We can't break through because our players are not good enough.
Draft order has absolutely nothing to do with it.
lmao
sometimes you tell yourself that your own argument isnt that great
I think JPJ isbetter but it's hard to assess how good he's been. Raiders moved him to guard. The last game I saw him he was playing great then got hurt and I think he got placed on season ending IR. Since that injury the Raiders have been atrocious at creating lanes for Jeanty.
The raiders have arguably the worst line in the NFL so I'm not entirely sure how to grade him. His PFF isn't flattering.
JPJ was taken much later too... Like it or not, where they are drafted affects expectations.
I may not have been clear enough, so I'll try to be more clear:
If JPJ was drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers as the 26th overall selection as you were advocating, would his play thus far in the NFL (wasn't good enough at Center - on a shitty OL, as you correctly pointed out - and missed significant time) justify the 26th overall selection?
Yes, because he's a better player and has played better despite having even worse players around him and worse coaching/development.
But the margin isn't substantial
That simply doesn't make sense to me. I'm not sure how a guy who was drafted to be a Center, but wasn't good enough to stay at Center (on a team with many other shitty iOL) and has missed significant time (started 21/32 possible games) is justified @ 26th overall. While Barton has been good enough to stay at Center - with better iOL than the Raiders and has started 31/32 possible games is not justified @ 26th overall. Those things are pretty substantial differences in favor of Barton.
I can appreciate that you say the margin isn't substantial, but I think you're letting your bias affect you here.
Barton isn't playing well. His mistakes are timely. He's not a natural center. His strength is being a Swiss army knife. He can't snap the ball and he doesn't make the guards better.
You don't take a center in the first unless you're sure they're elite. It's not a high position of value.
I have no idea what the raiders are doing with JPJ. I don't think your points are an indication of him but rather a clueless franchise making clueless decisions.
He's a natural center. He won best center award (Remmington) in college. Why they play him at guard is beyond me but I guess it's a function of need? No idea... They're a mess. (See link below)
JPJ is still a better prospect and if he was playing with our line (which is substantially better than the raiders) he'd grade out even better.
The injury was unfortunate. But he played 15 games his rookie year.
He was dominating the broncos line before he got hurt then the raiders did absolutely nothing once he was gone and they couldn't run behind him.
Time will tell but he dropped because he had four concussions in college. The ankle injury this year is something he could have returned from but the raiders suck so they shut him down
JPJ is still a better prospect and if he was playing with our line (which is substantially better than the raiders) he'd grade out even better
Zack Frazier, who was the guy I liked most, clears both Barton and JPJ.
Draft order has absolutely nothing to do with it.
lmao
sometimes you tell yourself that your own argument isnt that great
Licht passed on 4 elite players in the 2021-2022 drafts because he had bad draft boards. They were there, at the positions we were targeting, in the range we were targeting them.
Draft order has absolutely nothing to do with it.
lmao
sometimes you tell yourself that your own argument isnt that great
Licht passed on 4 elite players in the 2021-2022 drafts because he had bad draft boards. They were there, at the positions we were targeting, in the range we were targeting them.
Maybe the worst draft class he's had. He was high on his own supply.
Kyle Trask, jfc. Wtf was he thinking?
Every pick was so fucking bad except for Stuard with the last pick whom he traded for peanuts
