There is an old adage that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link that would aptly apply to the offensive line as well. After looking decent the year before with missing pieces and cast off replacements, the line was a sore spot in 2013. The line did show sporadic flashes of good play against inferior defensive lines, but got man handled by teams with better defensive lines and speed on the right side.Our Bucs have a number of issues that were exposed last season, but none, at least in my opinion, were bigger than the lack of play by our offensive line, especially the middle of the line.Generally, the consensus is that Dotson was the only player on the line to play consistently well the entire season, so you do have something to build with. But the rest of the line is suspect for various reasons.Donald Penn came into training camp for the 2013 season in what was considered to be his best shape ever. Watching during training camp, it seemed to me that Penn was smaller than prior years, I suspect that he was at a lighter weight than he normally played at as a step to improve his overall quickness. That makes me wonder if the target weight was too light and while Penn gained quickness, he lost anchor weight. Over the prior years, Penn has been a fairly consistent performer and my guess is that depending on how Penn assesses his 2013 play to the new coaches and their overall evaluation, Penn will be retained by the club, perhaps at a reduced rate for 2014. At the age of 30, it’s more possible that this was just a down year rather than the beginning of a downhill slide. However, the coaching staff will look at, draft or otherwise acquire another potential left tackle in the offseason. And, the person that they could be looking at is Dotson, who does have some experience playing that position when Penn was out during a contract holdout. I’m not sure if Penn can play right tackle (I think he did play some there at the beginning of his career) so a swap of positions between Penn and Dotson is also a reasonable possibility. Another possibility is that the Bucs see the writing on the wall with Penn, get him to take a pay cut and then trade him for a mid to lower round draft pick during the draft. With a couple of off season preseason camps before the draft, the Bucs should get a handle on how Penn fits in 2014. My projection however, is that Penn will be the opening day starter at left tackle in 2014. Jeremy Zuttah, is the current starting center, but has played almost as much at left guard during the last couple of years as he has at center. At times, his play is generally acceptable, but I’ve never heard his play as being described as pro bowl worthy at either position. My opinion of Zuttah is that he’s a marginal starter in the league, and probably better off being a sub off the bench. Ted Larsen, his backup at both center and left guard is also nothing more than a second team player at best and is a free agent this off season. This is a position where the Bucs really need to improve during the offseason. Currently, I don’t think there is anyone on the roster that can be a starter at this position. I think the Bucs will attempt to make a play for Alex Mack from Cleveland if he makes it to free agency and that would be a big upgrade at this position. Another candidate is Brian De La Puente or Evan Dietrich Smith from the Saints and Packers respectively. Although a draft choice is not out of the question here, looking for a better center at a reasonable price is probably what I feel the Bucs front office will do.Our current guards are Davin Joseph and Carl Nicks. Like Penn, Joseph had a poor season which may or may not been because he still wasn’t completely healthy coming back from his 2012 injury. My guess with Joseph, who is also 30 like Penn, will be asked to take a pay cut for 2014 and will be brought back to compete for the starting right guard position. Nicks on the other hand, is much more unlikely to return based upon his injury situation. It’s paramount that the Bucs grab at least one of the top FA guards and may also use a high draft choice on one as well. As I mentioned, I think Zuttah is best as a substitute off the bench, so I’m not looking at him as a potential starter. My guess here is that the Bucs will hope Joseph will return to form and will nail down one guard position and that they can find a FA guard to compete with or take over the left guard position. Some names to watch are Willie Colon (Jets), Geoff Schwartz (Chiefs) or Jon Asamoah (Chiefs). My thoughts are that Penn and Joseph will return, asked to take pay cuts and part of that money will be used to attract some additional talent that can compete for those starting positions. The Nicks situation at this point has to be looked at as a loss and will actually probably cost us cap space if he retires (again, I suspect that here some type of injury settlement will possibly help reduce that cap charge). I think the Bucs will look to shore up the offensive line via free Agency rather than the draft, but if they come up short, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a pick anywhere from the 1st to the 4th round on an offensive lineman looking for an immediate starter for 2014.Ideal Free Agent pickups (IMO): Alex Mack and Geoff Schwartz. Schwartz also has the ability to play right tackle allowing the freedom to move Dotson to the left tackle position if necessary. Secondary targets would be Brian De La Puente for his ability to play both center and guard and Evan Dietrich Smith as center.
I hope the Bucs are done spending big money on Guards. The one interior lineman I'd really love to see the Bucs go after if he gets to free agency is Alex Mack, and if he does get to the open market I think there's a good chance he lands here. The most consistent thing about Penn has been that his play falls apart in the 2nd half of the season as his weight balloons. To run a quick passing game, Bucs need to be more athletic on the O-Line anyway and Penn does not fit that. I'd like to see the Bucs sign a guy like Michael Oher to play RT and have Dotson compete with and most likely replace Penn at LT. I also think Greg Robinson is a guy the Bucs should seriously consider if he is on the board at #7. He could play Guard year one, but I'd look to move him to Tackle year 2.
BB, even with Penn's poorer play in the 2nd half of the season he still mostly graded out as positive in his play. However, replacing Penn is something I did mention and that the Bucs could decide to part ways with him and draft a replacement in round one. And I'm not against that, but I think the Bucs are going to go with Glennon as their quarterback next season and I see them wanting to surround him with a veteran line rather than one with one or two rookies. I also think if they decide to replace Penn at left tackle, I think they will try Dotson first and look for a cheaper right tackle replacement as you suggested. But my point is that really, of all the weaknesses we have on this team, I think offensive line is number one. However, the good news is that Free Agency starts March 11th, so with luck, we should get a few answers to how the coaches feel pretty quick.
Maybe the biggest disappointment from the Dummynik regime is that O-line . Looked like we had finally built what would be a dominant elite group , and instead it was a total train wreck.May not be fixable in one season , but we need to start the process now . Way too much cap space is tied up in that line for the returns we are getting.
Looked like we had finally built what would be a dominant elite group , and instead it was a total train wreck.
Hard to fault the effort, although the results were bad. Everyone, analysts included, thought that the Bucs might have had the best offensive line in the game going into the 2013 season. I find it hard to believe that the entire line is unsalvageable. There are tons of examples in the NFL where a player around the age of 30 has a bad season, goes elsewhere and has a couple more highly productive years with the proper scheme. We pretty much have that here. I'm of the opinion that Warhop will get better production out of Penn and Joseph than Bostad got last season. However, Zuttah and Nicks need to be replaced in my opinion. This shouldn't be an entire rebuild, but more of a shoring up of what could still be a decent line. Really wish I could get a 1-1 with Warhop and discuss his thoughts about the present rostered players.
Maybe the biggest disappointment from the Dummynik regime is that O-line . Looked like we had finally built what would be a dominant elite group , and instead it was a total train wreck.May not be fixable in one season , but we need to start the process now . Way too much cap space is tied up in that line for the returns we are getting.
Definately a case of a massive investment and minimal returns. WE can't fix it in one shot because the disfunction is all over the line. Other than Dotson i think all of these guys have problems but swapping 4 players out will be tough both in terms of volume and contracts. Penn might be the least sucky on the line (and that is saying something) but the easiest to replace in this offseason - Robinson at our pick would be nifty. I still wonder about moving him inside and could he he a bridge to the future at guard and we dump Davin and simply try and fix 2 spots with one new player.
Penn - Stays as a stop gap until an OT is brought in to play RT (Dotson shifting to LT) or to outright replace himNicks - I have no idea what his future holdsZuttah - People say they want to replace him but he had sub par play at both guard spots so I am not so down on him as others. However bad snaps of his has to be correctedJoseph - Even with a pay cut I don't see how he returns to form but it wouldn't hurt.Dotson - best player on the line easilyCarimi - Overpaid if he isn't starting and nothing specialDaniels - Developmental project but worth a lookOverall, what grates me is that most NFL offensive linemen should see a decline in their play by their mid 30's. So Penn and Joseph should be in their "prime years" of NFL play but they seem to have hit a wall way too quickly.Larsen and Meredith are decent depth players but they are UFA's and that leaves the Bucs with major problems.1. Trying to upgrade any of the starter spots 2. Building some semblance of depthAll signs point to the Bucs having to completely re-tool the offensive line, however that is hard to do in one off season. So, I agree with the others that the interior will be worked on first.
My guess is Warhop will try to convince Lovie he needs to get Alex Mack signed here. IMO, an offensive line needs to be built from the C out, and in the ENTIRE history of da Bucs, I don't think we've EVER had a young, legit Pro-Bowl level C. This is a rare opportunity, assuming the Browns don't tag him, to get one our coaches actually already know. DO IT, Lovie!!
1) there is no way the Bucs should keep Joseph and Penn if they don't take a huge pay cut...2) Zuttah could be safe, but you still need to ask for a little paycut...3) imo there is only three UFAs worth a big contract: LT Jared Veldheer, Eugene Monroe and OC Alex Mack.4) we have to draft 3-4 OLs minimum in the next two draft, this Oline is aging and we have no depth or long-term solution!5) we have to draft(2nd or 4/5th round) a good guard this year... FA market looks bad, average at best!6) if you keep Penn you have to draft a good OT in 2014 or 2015...
We need to start the rehaul of this Oline immediately. Sign Alex Mack, draft either Matthews or Robinson with our first pick and draft the best available guard with our second pick.Lovie could never get the Oline right in Chicago. He'll work wonders with our defense but we need to commit to the Oline this offseason and think longterm.
Hard to fault the effort? I would say the exact opposite. Joseph's play has been on a downward spiral since the '08 season. His injuries over the years have deteriorated his play, that was once pretty good when he first entered the league. Instead of attempting to draft his replacement, which is what most teams would have done in that situation, Dom chose to give him a ridiculous deal and then chose to re-sign his buddy Trueblood to keep Joseph happy. This isn't a one year issue when it comes to Joseph. He has played this way for years...when he actually sees the field, that is. The most damning thing Dom did to this OL is the refusal to spend draft picks on the OL. It's 100% why our OL is where it is today. The way Dom went about building this OL, was Dom's biggest failure as GM. None of these players have ever played up to the hype that the Bucs/some media were hyping this group up to be. Hell, there were quite a few here that argued that the Nicks signing made this group arguably the leagues best....not with the other 4 players it didn't. Hell, even our own players have bought into this delusion. GMC was on with Jay Mohr last month and Mohr asked if the Bucs should take one of the top OTs at #7. GMC stated that he loves Thierry OL and would change a thing. Lolz.I would keep Penn one more year, but if there is an OT that they really like who slips to the 2nd or the 4th, then I wouldn't be opposed to them taking that player.Dotson seems to be a keeper. Has been the most consistent OLmen over the past 2 seasons.Zuttah can be kept. Slide him to a guard position. He plays much better at OG than he does C.Dump Joseph....even at a reduced rate. No player should be kept on reputation alone, which is all he has left.See what happens with Nicks. If he doesn't return for any of '14, then dump him.Unless you can get a bargain player who is young and has some potential, they should steer clear of buying OLmen on the FA market.Lastly, we absolutely need to draft 2 interior OL fairly high in this years draft. Look for a new C and a new OG.
LOL at Joseph "returning to form". His "form" sucked before his injury. He hasn't been good in five years.Penn will be here next year, if only because replacing him is likely a two year project unless we draft an elite tackle. Zuttah is a backup. Larsen is a car salesman. Joseph should just retire. Unfortunately Joseph is the most likely of the three interior to return. If we're lucky we'll get rid of two of them.
Disagree on 2 year project for LT. I think Dotson could flop over there and be an upgrade immediately. He plays LT in preseason and camp some and looks dominant...granted its never been in a real game. New regime may take the " if it ain't broke don't fix it " approach and leave him at RT though.
Joseph isn't going to return to form. I am sure of that. He has been awful for years. Dotson is okay but not much of a run blocker for a RT. Meredith - Carimi -Larsen need to be disposed of. Penn is fine but I would raise his allowable weight. He plays better around 340-355. Zuttah is a good center. No reason to make a move IMO.It's funny how nobody reaches consensus on the OL. I think Z is much better at C.
Dotson doesn't have much of a kick slide to play LT. That could be a disaster.
