Looking at guys on rookie contracts is pointless also. If you wanna debate FAs worth, you have to look at the market because the market is what dictates a guys value. So guys like Dez Bryant and AJ Green who have not tested the waters of fre agency have no bearing on this.Jordy Nelson, Wes Welker, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall and Marquise Colston are the best FA receivers of recent history. Not necessarily the highest paid, but their production says they are the best. Then there are guys like Mike Wallace, Sydney Rice, Percy Harvin, Victor Cruz, and Pierre Garcon that ARE in the top ten highest paid...but shouldn't be. You have to look at all these guys if you wanna figure out Jax's worth....and I think if you really look, any unbiased person would realize that VJax is worth every dime. Eric Decker and Jimmy Graham will be looking at all these same guys for their big deals this year. They will both be looking for $12M/yr or more. On a side note, while looking at these stats and comparing I noticed that Jordy Nelson is the greatest bargain in football. Dude miss 4 games last year due to injury, but still has 3322 yards and 30 TDs over the last three seasons....and his four year contract averages just $3.5M per year! Wow. 2014 is the last year of his deal. Hope he gets paid. He deserves it.
3 years.....then I don't get why people are also in such a hurry to get rid of players like Carl Nicks. Donald Penn. Davin Joseph. Anybody if 3 years is the time period used to judge players.
Davin has sucked for at least three years and Nicks' diseased foot is falling off as we speak. Stop trying to change the subject. Let's hear why VJax is overpaid.
On a side note, while looking at these stats and comparing I noticed that Jordy Nelson is the greatest bargain in football. Dude miss 4 games last year due to injury, but still has 3322 yards and 30 TDs over the last three seasons....and his four year contract averages just $3.5M per year! Wow. 2014 is the last year of his deal. Hope he gets paid. He deserves it.
Having the best QB in the league helps.8 games with Rodgers- 810 yards, 7 TDs7 games without Rodgers- 437 yards, 1 TD
JC5100 - That makes me think that VJax's accomplishments with JFree and Glennon are even more impressive then, b/c most other top tier receivers have better arms delivering them the ball. VJax got his stats, despite being the only viable threat and often being Locked On to by the QB.I guess I don't know why I am even defending him, as I guess the numbers speak for themselves. My only disappointment with VJax is his propensity to run out of steam and get tackled inside the 5 after a long catch and run.
Davin has sucked for at least three years and Nicks' diseased foot is falling off as we speak. Stop trying to change the subject. Let's hear why VJax is overpaid.
Hmmmmm pro bowler 3 years ago..........hurt the last 2...so your assessment is merely an opinion. So what? You said 3 years.And I already made a post saying why he's overpaid. I suggest you go back and look.
Wrong, a bandaid can be put on the roster but it won't be truly fixed for years thanks to the dumb contracts and the quantity of solid depth needed to go along with major improvements at position of importance.For starters Nicks, that mess is very hard to clear up thanks to him costing $4mill more being off the roster than on it, if we keep him that's near $10 mill at a position of little value being paid to an injured guy that will likely never get back to 100%. What a great situation. Throw in how bad Joseph is and we likely need 2 new starting guards while still paying Nicks an idiotic amount.Tell me, how do you fix that in 1 year? Let's just tie up $20 mill in 3 guards for 2014 while paying Revis his money, still having to pay GMac, Jackson his money.The cap isn't some limitless pot of cash and the way some things are set up isn't great for sorting them out in 2014.
I think you overstate things, TBTrojan. There are some clunky things with the Bucs cap, no doubt. We have resources tied up in to some spots that were I setting things up, I wouldn't done. But there also easy contracts to dump. And in terms of getting things where Lovie wants them, yes, 2 years is probably the plan. But I'm not sure I understand why you think some of these will take so much unwinding. For example, take guard. You want to replace Joseph and Nicks. Fair enough, one guy is terrible and it's an open question whether Nicks will be able to play again (people assume a lot about him, but do we really have any real knowledge about his health?). We are stuck with Nicks whether he plays or not, but we aren't stuck with Joseph or his contract; by cutting him we'd free up about $7.5 million. So we have Nicks at $9.4 million, and let's assume he doesn't take a single snap. So we need 3 guards. From the savings of Joseph alone, you could pay the salaries of 3 guards making top 50 guard money. Let's say we go that route - that's $18 million in 2014, but (again assuming Nicks can't play), but by 2015 we are down to $13 million. And that's likely on the high end. Will it be difficult to find quality guards? Maybe, maybe not. It seems odd to argue on the one hand that we are spending too many big dollars to non-important positions and then say that we can't fix it in the offseason. They are considered non-important because they are largely a dime a dozen. Chicago overhauled their OL in a single offseason, and had just $10 million devoted to the OL - that's the lowest 2013 cap figure. They went from 24th in adjusted sack % to 5th in a year. And here's the other thing - we had the same personnel in 2012 that we did in 2013 (except for Carimi). And yet the offensive line - if you look at Football Outsiders' metrics - performed a lot worse. I don't see why one or two changes here couldn't get us back to that mid-level of performance on the OL (slightly above average as a group according to FO's adjusted line yards, adj. sack %). I'd love to replace Penn, but we can survive with him in the short-run.Defensively, I just don't see the huge holes. I think we need an edge-rusher, depth at DB, and of course we'll need to sign some LBs (because 3 of them are FAs, and Foster might not be what we want). Now, that doesn't mean if we bring in an edge rusher we are suddenly the 2002 Bucs, but we have workeable pieces. The problem this team has is the same problem that most of the teams that aren't in the playoffs has - QB. And you can right "get franchise QB" on the top of the wish list, but it doesn't fit into any 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 year plan, or any blow it up/don't blow it up discussion. P.S. to an extent this notion of "worth any penny" v. "grossly overpaid" for players who are performing at a high level is kind of useless. This isn't the stock market where prices change constantly. The reality is a recent big $$ FA is going to cost more than better players at the same position. That's just the reality. Teams are always going to have a mix of players who probably are overpaid at the moment and guys who, if they could turn FA tomorrow would command a significantly higher salary (e.g., Lavonte David). But I'd rather pay someone like Vincent Jackson (who has done just about everything we've asked for him), than pay $5 million to some mid-level FA like Danny Amendola who can't even get on the field. It's all context.
VJax has been worth every penny we paid him.
No he hasn't
I can't wait to read why he hasn't
A WR being paid top 5 at his position but isn't putting up top 5 numbers...And he's somehow been worth $12 million a year? Yea, to Buc fans who are still accustome to mediocrity and still confuse it with excellence...I'll say this again also. Vincent Jackson had the WORST percentage of caught targets. He finished #7 in targets and #23 in receptions..But to Bucs fans, he's worth top 5 money...Makes sense.
He dropped quite a few when they sent him over the middle. Was he afraid or did he have some tender ribs?
VJ is the best FA signing by this team since Rice. I can't believe anyone is questioning the move. He had some drops last year, but still had a solid season even in the crapstorm.
Agree
Tender ribs and frustration over the team sucking I believe.
Tender ribs and frustration over the team sucking I believe.
So you're making the excuse that he's soft and a quitter?
Tender ribs and frustration over the team sucking I believe.
So you're making the excuse that he's soft and a quitter?
What you got against light skinned brothers?
Tender ribs and frustration over the team sucking I believe.
So you're making the excuse that he's soft and a quitter?
What you got against light skinned brothers?
Really? And people claim I'm racist? Is this what the idiots here do when you have have no other recourse in a debate?
I think Penn, Joesph and Nicks are all worthy of debate. Tons of resources put into the O-line and very little return. However, there is no way....NO WAY....that a guy like Lovie Smith, who has been tagged as a guy who could never put together an offense, would part ways with playmakers like Doug Martin and Vincent Jackson without at least kicking the tires for a season or two. Both have proven that they can put up big numbers with questionable QB play. Given our current situation at QB and the likely outcome of who will be taking snaps from under center next season, I highly doubt he would stake his career by cutting or trading two of the only bright spots on the offense.
Looking at guys on rookie contracts is pointless also. If you wanna debate FAs worth, you have to look at the market because the market is what dictates a guys value. So guys like Dez Bryant and AJ Green who have not tested the waters of fre agency have no bearing on this.Jordy Nelson, Wes Welker, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Brandon Marshall and Marquise Colston are the best FA receivers of recent history. Not necessarily the highest paid, but their production says they are the best. Then there are guys like Mike Wallace, Sydney Rice, Percy Harvin, Victor Cruz, and Pierre Garcon that ARE in the top ten highest paid...but shouldn't be. You have to look at all these guys if you wanna figure out Jax's worth....and I think if you really look, any unbiased person would realize that VJax is worth every dime. Eric Decker and Jimmy Graham will be looking at all these same guys for their big deals this year. They will both be looking for $12M/yr or more. On a side note, while looking at these stats and comparing I noticed that Jordy Nelson is the greatest bargain in football. Dude miss 4 games last year due to injury, but still has 3322 yards and 30 TDs over the last three seasons....and his four year contract averages just $3.5M per year! Wow. 2014 is the last year of his deal. Hope he gets paid. He deserves it.
I really can't see Decker making that much money. I think teams know that he isn't a #1 receiver. A lot of his stats are the product of Manning, he has many drops, and he's open a lot because of picks. 8 million for a bad team like the Bucs, 6 million for a better team.